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Storyline Article: Defense of the Split Timeline theory


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#31 LionHarted

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 07:36 PM

Oh, there's lots of things that TWW seems to have forgotten already, while ALttP mysteriously remembers them.
Take the Creation Myth. Take the forging of the Master Sword. Take the fierce wars before OoT. Ganondorf is mentioned by name, and said to have entered the Sacred Realm, all of which TWW doesn't know.

I don't remember ALttP mentioning the Creation myth, or the forging of the Master Sword, or the fierce wars before OoT. Those points were all covered in the manual with respect to the Seal War story, which means that we can only assume that knowledge of these events was around during the Seal War era. Ganondorf in ALttP is said to have "rediscovered" the entrance to the Sacred Realm after the location was lost to those "chosen few" who knew it, and we see that the Royal Family in OoT clearly knows where the entrance to the Sacred Realm is.

TWW doesn't reference the creation myth, but neither does ALttP itself. TWW actually does reference the forging of the Master Sword: "The fact that the Master Sword lost the power to repel evil suggests to me that something has happened to the sages who infused the blade with the gods' power." The Fierce Wars are referenced very lightly in the intro to ALttP, but that's all. They would be unimportant to the progression of TWW, since TWW doesn't directly involve the Sacred Realm.

Link travelled back to the past and told Young Zelda the whole story of how Ganon was sealed by the Seven Sages and the "Knights of Hyrule" (which would be a metaphor for Link himself, as he isn't very keen on going down into history, as portrayed in the ending of MM and also OoT's future ending).
MM's intro legend states that the story was passed on in the Royal Family, so Young Link *must* have told it to Young Zelda before MM happened.

This means that the legend that is passed down on the Child timeline is inconsistent. For one, there's no battle between the Hero and Ganon, so there's no reason to pass down the story. Also, in the backstory of MM, it's clear that a Hero did appear to defeat the evil, while, according to the ALttP stories, no Hero is ever mentioned as having appeared.

Also, you assume that the legend to MM existed before MM existed, when it clearly references Link's journey into Termina. The MM legend is obviously post-facto, looking back at what Child Link did in the past from some far off future, a future that knows that he has "battled evil and saved Hyrule", a future that has "made him a legend."

He "embarked on a journey." Not he "is embarking on a journey". That's past tense--so he's already embarked on his journey.

Edited by LionHarted, 18 October 2006 - 07:36 PM.


#32 Arturo

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 07:58 AM

I don't remember ALttP mentioning the Creation myth, or the forging of the Master Sword, or the fierce wars before OoT. Those points were all covered in the manual with respect to the Seal War story, which means that we can only assume that knowledge of these events was around during the Seal War era. Ganondorf in ALttP is said to have "rediscovered" the entrance to the Sacred Realm after the location was lost to those "chosen few" who knew it, and we see that the Royal Family in OoT clearly knows where the entrance to the Sacred Realm is.

TWW doesn't reference the creation myth, but neither does ALttP itself. TWW actually does reference the forging of the Master Sword: "The fact that the Master Sword lost the power to repel evil suggests to me that something has happened to the sages who infused the blade with the gods' power." The Fierce Wars are referenced very lightly in the intro to ALttP, but that's all. They would be unimportant to the progression of TWW, since TWW doesn't directly involve the Sacred Realm.


The manual is a part of the game itself. It tells the story of the game. If the game had been created in 1998, they would tell all those things like in OoT.

This means that the legend that is passed down on the Child timeline is inconsistent. For one, there's no battle between the Hero and Ganon, so there's no reason to pass down the story. Also, in the backstory of MM, it's clear that a Hero did appear to defeat the evil, while, according to the ALttP stories, no Hero is ever mentioned as having appeared.

Also, you assume that the legend to MM existed before MM existed, when it clearly references Link's journey into Termina. The MM legend is obviously post-facto, looking back at what Child Link did in the past from some far off future, a future that knows that he has "battled evil and saved Hyrule", a future that has "made him a legend."

He "embarked on a journey." Not he "is embarking on a journey". That's past tense--so he's already embarked on his journey.


In MM Link is a legend only known to the Royal Family, while in ALttP even the Royal Family has forgotten about Link, they only have a prophecy of a hero coming when he's needed. In Adult OoT everyone has seen the Hero, thus, in TWW he's still remembered. In ALttP there are descendants of the sages left, while in TWW there are none. Why? Because almost certainly Ganondorf killed them to escape from the seal.

And seriously. How can anyone escape tiwce from THE VERY SAME SEAL?

#33 LionHarted

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 08:49 AM

The manual is a part of the game itself. It tells the story of the game. If the game had been created in 1998, they would tell all those things like in OoT.

It tells the story of events that happened prior to the game, not of things that actually happen within the game.

In MM Link is a legend only known to the Royal Family, while in ALttP even the Royal Family has forgotten about Link, they only have a prophecy of a hero coming when he's needed. In Adult OoT everyone has seen the Hero, thus, in TWW he's still remembered.

Of course the Royal Family has forgotten about Link in ALttP. The only one with memory of the Hero--the King of Red Lions--died at the end of TWW.

In ALttP there are descendants of the sages left, while in TWW there are none. Why? Because almost certainly Ganondorf killed them to escape from the seal.

There most certainly are Sages in TWW. You awaken them as part of the plotline.

And seriously. How can anyone escape tiwce from THE VERY SAME SEAL?

We don't know if it's the very same seal--we just know that it's a seal cast by the Sages, in both cases. In OoT's case (and in the Seal War), they sealed the entrance to the Sacred Realm. ALttP mentions things differently--it says they sealed "magic portals". Guess what we see in FSA? Magic portals. And guess what happens at the end of the game? They're gone.

Edited by LionHarted, 19 October 2006 - 08:49 AM.


#34 Arturo

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 08:59 AM

Manual:

"Please help...my name is Zelda, I am apprehended in the castle's underground prison."

Game:

Help me... ...

Please help me...
I am being held captive in the castle dungeon.


The Hero is known by many other people: the sages, Princess Zelda, all the people from Outset that dress their children as the Hero of Time. But the Seven Sages are never mentioned in TWW, they only appear at Hyrule Castle, but they are not present in the legend. Why? Because they have been forgotten.

The Sages of TWW have a diferent function. Those ones are Wind and Earth and pray for the Master Sword, they have NOTHING to do with the Seven Sages casted the Seal and their descendants are not around anymore in TWW.

And in FSA the "ancient demon reborn" (he's never mentioned as reborn in ALttP) is sealed by seven MAIDENS (not Sages) inside the Four Sword. And you don't see the magic portals in the ending. But that doesn't mean they weren't.

You contradict canon.

#35 LionHarted

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 10:38 AM

The Sages of TWW have a diferent function. Those ones are Wind and Earth and pray for the Master Sword, they have NOTHING to do with the Seven Sages casted the Seal and their descendants are not around anymore in TWW.

That's quite debatable.

The fact that the Master Sword lost the power to repel evil suggests to me that something has happened to the sages who infused the blade with the gods' power. [...]You must head for these two temples to see what has happened to the sages and attempt to find a way to recover the power to repel evil.

"Gods' power" = "the power to repel evil." Who gave the Master Sword the power to repel evil initially? The Seal War story recounts it as follows: "For that reason, the people of Hyrule were told by the gods to make something that would repulse any evil that may kidnap the Triforce: the blade of evil's bane." TWW reveals that it was, in fact, the Sages who "infused the blade with the gods' power." And if those same Sages are the Sages in TWW, then what does that suggest? That the "ancient Sages"--the ones who built the Temple of Time to protect evil, the very same line of Sages we see in OoT--were also the ones to give the Master Sword the power to repel evil and that they placed it in the Temple of Time.

And in FSA the "ancient demon reborn" (he's never mentioned as reborn in ALttP) is sealed by seven MAIDENS (not Sages) inside the Four Sword. And you don't see the magic portals in the ending. But that doesn't mean they weren't.

He doesn't have to be mentioned as reborn in ALttP if FSA mentions that for us.
ALttP makes it quite clear that the Maidens have the power of the Sages. In both FSA and ALttP, Zelda is one of the Maidens. I see no reason why I should not presume that these two groups, both of whom guard and cast seals and fight against evil, should not be the same.
We see some of the very same areas where the portals used to be, and the portals are gone completely.

Edited by LionHarted, 19 October 2006 - 10:40 AM.


#36 Jumbie

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 04:19 PM

I don't remember ALttP mentioning the Creation myth, or the forging of the Master Sword, or the fierce wars before OoT. Those points were all covered in the manual with respect to the Seal War story, which means that we can only assume that knowledge of these events was around during the Seal War era.

Damn what a stupidity!! So now you've sunken to the point where you speak of ALttP's manual legend as the "Seal War story", and separate it completely from the legend that is told in-game?! Please now, just spare us such nonsense.
As Arturo rightly said, ALttP's manual story is nothing but a more precise version of the in-game backstory. So it's by all means correct if I say ALttP remembers the Creation myth and forging of the MS.

Ganondorf in ALttP is said to have "rediscovered" the entrance to the Sacred Realm after the location was lost to those "chosen few" who knew it, and we see that the Royal Family in OoT clearly knows where the entrance to the Sacred Realm is.

All of that is completely consistent with what happened in OoT:
The ancient Sages had sealed the entrance to the Sacred Realm with the Temple of Time, so its location was hidden before OoT. Ganondorf rediscovered the entrance to the Sacred Realm. Indeed the location had been lost to the broad masses, except for the Royal Family and one old man on the marketplace.

TWW doesn't reference the creation myth, but neither does ALttP itself.

What about TWW's manual though, any reference to the creation myth? No! But it has been in both ALttP's and OoT's manual, which is another reason why those two games must happen rather close after each other, at least closer than OoT and TWW do.

TWW actually does reference the forging of the Master Sword: "The fact that the Master Sword lost the power to repel evil suggests to me that something has happened to the sages who infused the blade with the gods' power."

But once again, it's not mentioned in the game's backstory, neither in-game nor in the manual.

The Fierce Wars are referenced very lightly in the intro to ALttP, but that's all. They would be unimportant to the progression of TWW, since TWW doesn't directly involve the Sacred Realm.

Of course, of course, but why is it that ALttP's backstory remembers the fierce wars at all, if you say it happens many centuries after TWW which cannot even remember them?

For one, there's no battle between the Hero and Ganon, so there's no reason to pass down the story.

But still, in the Child timeline, Ganon has been prevented from conquering Hyrule (from *ever* even ruling it, in the first place!), and has been sealed in the Sacred Realm, which plays the central role in ALttP. This is the reason for passing down the legend.

Also, you assume that the legend to MM existed before MM existed, when it clearly references Link's journey into Termina. The MM legend is obviously post-facto, looking back at what Child Link did in the past from some far off future, a future that knows that he has "battled evil and saved Hyrule", a future that has "made him a legend."
He "embarked on a journey." Not he "is embarking on a journey". That's past tense--so he's already embarked on his journey.

So you argue that MM's intro legend was written even after the Adult half of OoT?! Well, it sure suits your purpose, that is obvious. Still, the legend is told in-game and interludes to Link starting that journey, so how would one assume the legend didn't already exist before he embarked?

"Gods' power" = "the power to repel evil." Who gave the Master Sword the power to repel evil initially? The Seal War story recounts it as follows: "For that reason, the people of Hyrule were told by the gods to make something that would repulse any evil that may kidnap the Triforce: the blade of evil's bane." TWW reveals that it was, in fact, the Sages who "infused the blade with the gods' power." And if those same Sages are the Sages in TWW, then what does that suggest? That the "ancient Sages"--the ones who built the Temple of Time to protect evil, the very same line of Sages we see in OoT--were also the ones to give the Master Sword the power to repel evil and that they placed it in the Temple of Time.

Wow, that's an excellent explanation! :) Fortunately it works the same in both Single or Split theories, so I quite like it.

#37 LionHarted

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 04:35 PM

Damn what a stupidity!! So now you've sunken to the point where you speak of ALttP's manual legend as the "Seal War story", and separate it completely from the legend that is told in-game?! Please now, just spare us such nonsense.

Of course. Ever heard of retconning? Ever wondered what would happen when the writers of a game series script change after ten years? They're going to overwrite connections that existed previously (and hopefully rewrite them as well). It happens all the time. In fact, you yourself have overwritten the connection between MM and TWW in your own theory, saying that they take place on separate timelines.

As Arturo rightly said, ALttP's manual story is nothing but a more precise version of the in-game backstory. So it's by all means correct if I say ALttP remembers the Creation myth and forging of the MS.

ALttP's manual story includes the in-game backstory, and it's both separate and chronologically after the Seal War story, which is told as though it is ancient history. "The sealing became a distant legend."

Indeed the location had been lost to the broad masses, except for the Royal Family and one old man on the marketplace.

ALttP never says that the location was known to the masses. It says it was known to "those chosen" and that the information was lost.

What about TWW's manual though, any reference to the creation myth? No! But it has been in both ALttP's and OoT's manual, which is another reason why those two games must happen rather close after each other, at least closer than OoT and TWW do.

Why should it have a reference to the Creation Myth? A game that comes chronologically before it has already explained the Creation myth!

But once again, it's not mentioned in the game's backstory, neither in-game nor in the manual.

Of course it's not. TWW hadn't been released yet. Besides, TWW even allots for this not being mentioned by saying that "none remain who know" what became of Hyrule before the Flood. Again, ever heard of retconning?

Of course, of course, but why is it that ALttP's backstory remembers the fierce wars at all, if you say it happens many centuries after TWW which cannot even remember them?

TWW: "The memory of the kingdom vanished."

So you argue that MM's intro legend was written even after the Adult half of OoT?!

No. I'm saying that the MM intro legend existed alongside the Adult OoT legend, as we see in TWW.

Still, the legend is told in-game and interludes to Link starting that journey, so how would one assume the legend didn't already exist before he embarked?

How do you tell a story about a journey that's never happened? The prologue to MM is told as though the MM journey has already happened--the entire story of MM just seems like "Oh, the Hero defeated Ganon--look at this other story about something the Hero did after going back in time!"

Edited by LionHarted, 19 October 2006 - 04:36 PM.


#38 Jumbie

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 06:45 PM

Host: Hallo everybody, and welcome to "Miss the Points", the show that is bound to amaze you! Our defending champion today, like all those weeks before, is Mr Lex LionHarted. Now without further ado, let's start with the trials!

Mr LionHarted, does ALttP's manual legend tell a different story from what is told in the game itself?

Of course. Ever heard of retconning? Ever wondered what would happen when the writers of a game series script change after ten years? They're going to overwrite connections that existed previously (and hopefully rewrite them as well). It happens all the time.

Host: Strike, your answer is wrong! You've missed the point! :P Let's proceed with the second question..

Mr LionHarted, has the location of the entrance to the Sacred Realm been lost to the masses except for the Royal Family and one old man on the marketplace, prior to and during the first half of OoT?

ALttP never says that the location was known to the masses. It says it was known to "those chosen" and that the information was lost.

Host: Your answer is aiming miles away from the question I asked, so: Congrats, you've missed the point again! :party: On with number 3:

Why, do you think, is the Creation myth never mentioned in TWW's manual and the game itself, although the same story has repeatedly been mentioned in OoT and ALttP?

Why should [TWW] have a reference to the Creation Myth? A game that comes chronologically before it has already explained the Creation myth!
TWW hadn't been released yet. Besides, TWW even allots for this not being mentioned by saying that "none remain who know" what became of Hyrule before the Flood. Again, ever heard of retconning?

Host: Whoa, that's unbelievable, you missed the point again! Folks, it really looks like he's gonna stay our champion..

Why is it that ALttP's backstory remembers the fierce wars at all, if you say it happens many centuries after TWW which cannot even remember them?

TWW: "The memory of the kingdom vanished."

Host: Wow..! People at home, have you already figured out the ingenious strategy our candidate is using here? He rides the wave of misunderstanding my questions, and so manages to miss my point once again! :P

MM's legend is told in-game and interludes to Link starting that journey, so how would one assume the legend didn't already exist before he embarked?

How do you tell a story about a journey that's never happened? The prologue to MM is told as though the MM journey has already happened--the entire story of MM just seems like "Oh, the Hero defeated Ganon--look at this other story about something the Hero did after going back in time!"

Host: So Mr LionHarted is saying that the journey to Termina never happened? Or is he saying the game begins with a prediction of the future? Either way, he has given the wrong answer: Missed the point again!
Do you know what that means? Also tonight, he stays what he has always been: the ultimative champion of "Miss the Points"! :party:
I hope you all tune in again next time, when Mr Lex LionHarted is coming back to defend his title! I'm off.

Edited by Jumbie, 19 October 2006 - 06:49 PM.


#39 LionHarted

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 06:56 PM

Strike, your answer is wrong!

Says...? Oh, that's right. Says you. So you're denying that retconning exists?

Your answer is aiming miles away from the question I asked, so: Congrats, you've missed the point again!

The information was never known to the masses; so it can't have been lost to the masses. The game says it was lost to those chosen to pass it on.

You, my friend, miss the point.

Why, do you think, is the Creation myth never mentioned in TWW's manual and the game itself, although the same story has repeatedly been mentioned in OoT and ALttP?

Host: Whoa, that's unbelievable, you missed the point again! Folks, it really looks like he's gonna stay our champion..

The second half of the quote you quoted has nothing to do with the question I'm apparently "missing the point" on. <_<

MM's legend is told in-game and interludes to Link starting that journey, so how would one assume the legend didn't already exist before he embarked?

Host: So Mr LionHarted is saying that the journey to Termina never happened? Or is he saying the game begins with a prediction of the future? Either way, he has given the wrong answer: Missed the point again

Wow. Hypocrisy is rampant. The legend of him going on a journey exists before he actually goes on it?
















Still reading this thread?

Then you missed the point. I made it several posts ago, if you'd like to actually read what I said.

Edited by LionHarted, 19 October 2006 - 06:58 PM.


#40 Showsni

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 07:04 PM

Now now. There's no need to resort to making fun of people.

#41 Jumbie

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 08:39 PM

Says...? Oh, that's right. Says you. So you're denying that retconning exists?

In this case definitely. Well, I'm generally denying that the OoT+ALttP connection was retconned, but this is even one harder: 'retconning apart' one single manual story of ALttP, to now refer to two different events, is nothing but insane.

The information was never known to the masses; so it can't have been lost to the masses. The game says it was lost to those chosen to pass it on.

You don't know whether before the Ancient Sages sealed the entrance, the location was known to everyone or not.

The second half of the quote you quoted has nothing to do with the question I'm apparently "missing the point" on. <_<

I simply avoided asking the same question twice, and summed up your two answers in one.

Wow. Hypocrisy is rampant. The legend of him going on a journey exists before he actually goes on it?

Well, we read it in the beginning of MM, so effictively yes. All the legend says is he embarked on a journey, and then we see Link riding his horse, just having embarked on that journey. So it makes complete sense that that legend existed before he left. Remember Link's departure from Zelda in the flashback in MM? I tell you what, Link told her that he would leave, thus MM's intro legend came about! ;)

Then you missed the point. I made it several posts ago, if you'd like to actually read what I said.

Uh.. in which post specifically? Could you be so kind and repeat your point?

#42 LionHarted

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 08:52 PM

In this case definitely. Well, I'm generally denying that the OoT+ALttP connection was retconned, but this is even one harder: 'retconning apart' one single manual story of ALttP, to now refer to two different events, is nothing but insane.

Isn't that what you're doing? Didn't you "retcon apart" the OoT ending, to now lead into two different storylines? Or are you going to continue to try to rectify your position?--continue to deny that you're doing something at least equally, and perhaps even more dramatic? I mean, honestly, "retconning apart" the backstory to one game is somewhat difficult to argue, but "retconning apart" the entire continuity?

You don't know whether before the Ancient Sages sealed the entrance, the location was known to everyone or not.

Like hell I don't. "That's right... The Temple of Time is the entrance through which you can enter the Sacred Realm from our world. But the entrance is sealed with a stone wall called the Door of Time. And, in order to open the door, it is said that you need to collect three Spiritual Stones. And another thing you need...is the treasure that the Royal Family keeps along with this legend...The Ocarina of Time!" The Ocarina is kept along with the legend by the Royal Family. Let's please try to refrain from arguing against proof, now, please.

I simply avoided asking the same question twice, and summed up your two answers in one.

The first post was in response to the Fierce Wars comment; the second was about the Master Sword.

Well, we read it in the beginning of MM, so effictively yes.

Now you're arguing that we have record things that have never happened before they've happened. You literally just affirmed a post that says specifically that. Guess what?--Link didn't tell Zelda about his journey into Termina before it happened. It's absolutely impossible, since he never did it before on either timeline.

I tell you what, Link told her that he would leave, thus MM's intro legend came about! ;)

A legend that, before MM even starts, is already "held dearly by the Royal Family"? A legend that already "echoes" in the land of Hyrule? I think I'll pass on your logic, thanks.

Edited by LionHarted, 19 October 2006 - 09:56 PM.


#43 Alardonin

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 11:52 AM

Well first ill have to say to you guys that was some very impressive work, congrats you two. Also i cant believe i read all that and i can only imagine how much time that took you guys :P . I also have to amit that i thought about many of the stuff that was written there although i also have to admit that there were some info in there that i did not consider nor did i know. Also the translation of the Hylia text in WW is it legit? didnt know that. I havent even read the responses in this thread and i can tell that [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of people wont agree or that the split timeline could be seen in different ways wich i agree, but regardless that was a very good read. Also Jumbie i can see that you changed your mind in the possibility of a connection of the intro of ALTTP to the Fierce War.



Also guys after reading all that i thought that something like this would not escape you. To back your article and the split timilne theory as a hole there was a sentence in WW that clarifies it very well and that is the king of Red Lions saying that there was a possibility that this hero did not have any relationship with the hero told in the legends ergo the hero of time in OOT. I believe some stuff will be better left out for us to assume in TP.


I Have a theory considering the split timeline and the orther of the episodes of your timeline, the theory is regarding the beginning of the lineage of the Hero from WW. This is for the people that think the lineage is important, i think that the lineage might have started in the Link from TP ergo making the Link from WW not having a connection with the Link from OOT. Also there are other stuff to consider since the link in TP has the symble of the Triforce, he was already chosen to possibly be the carrier? I think there will be some major Background regarding the Triforce in TP.

#44 LionHarted

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 01:01 PM

A few things regarding the lineage of the Hero in TWW: there are two quotes in the entire game that claim that the Hero of Winds has no connection to the Hero of Time. Two quotes out of many, many quotes regarding the Hero in general. So let's weigh those two quotes against the others.

That garb you wear... Could you be the legendary hero? Has the king at long last found the Hero of Time? What is the matter? Do you not understand the ancient Hylian tongue? So...you are not the Hero of Time.

At first, the Deku Tree believes Link to actually be the Hero. He then asks, "Could you be the legendary hero? Has the king at last found the Hero of Time?" So we know, from this, that the king was supposed to find the legendary hero, and that that hero was supposed to be the Hero of Time. But, of course, when Link fails to understand the ancient tongue, the Deku Tree realizes his mistake. Link is not the hero of old.

But, then again, why would he be? It has been hundreds of years since the events of OoT--the Hero should be dead by now. Perhaps the Deku Tree, like Jabun and the King, believed that the Hero they would find would be literally the same person from the OoT legends--literally the very same hero, returned to fight the very same Ganon that continues to threaten them. So that would, of course, obviously make him not the Hero of Time--he's long dead. But, of course, they can cling to their unrealistic expectations.

Jabun: If you have sought me out...it must mean you have found the Hero of Time, does it not?
King of Red Lions: Unfortunately, that is not so.
Jabun: Then for what purpose have you come to see me?
King of Red Lions: The one I have brought with me has no connection to the legendary one. And yet I sense great promise in the courage that this one possesses.

From the discourse, we are again introduced to the expectation that the King, the Deku Tree, and Jabun all expected to find the actual Hero of Time--literally, the same one from before. Of course, this expectation has not been met, but the King takes another extraordinary leap of faith by saying that this new boy has no connection to the legendary one. He doesn't support this statement at all whatsoever--he just presumes it.

This is remarkably similar to the Jewish Sanehedrin's opinion of Jesus Christ during the Biblical era. (Note that this is from a Christian standpoint.) The Jews interpreted the prophecy of the Messiah--the King of the Jews--as a sign of the coming of a great military leader who would deliver them from under their enemies' (the Romans') feet and build for them a magnificent kingdom. When they, instead, got the "son of a carpenter", a man who preached peace and compassion and nonviolence, and who accused even the clergy of false practices, they denied Him as their promised savior.

The King's opinion of the Hero is somewhat the same, only without the crass mistreatment and hateful propaganda--he's not receiving the glorious hero he expected, one who will smite Ganon under his heel--he's getting just a curiously courageous boy who wants to save his sister. Does this mean that he has no connection to the Hero the three Ancient Ones expect? Not necessarily. Even here the King admits to Link's extraordinary courage. In fact, TWW Link seems to fit the criteria of the Hero the King was meant to be searching for--the one to whom TWW Link apparently has no connection.

When the worst of all possible events comes to pass, and Ganon is revived once again...One shall seek the hero who is destined to defeat the great evil... That is the destiny the goddesses have placed upon the King of Red Lions. Since that day, he has been sailing the Great Sea in search of a young hero not unlike yourself.

Here it is revealed that the King was destined to find this hero, the one they have perhaps mistakenly been calling the "Hero of Time." And I'm sure we all know that TWW Link, the Hero of Winds, is destined to defeat the great evil--since he does so at the end of the game. So, despite the King's skepticism, TWW Link is the hero he was supposed to find. He even admits this when you assemble the full Triforce of Courage in front of the Tower of the Gods:

Oh! What is this? There, on your hand--the Triforce piece now dwells within you! It is the Triforce of Courage--proof that you are indeed the true hero.

Waitaminute--weren't you saying earlier that Link had "no connection to the legendary one", O mighty Masted One? I guess you were wrong, old man--Link is the true hero, the one you have sought--you were just too short-sighted to see it. Notice also the King's apparent surprise that Link was actually able to carry the Triforce of Courage "within" him. Obviously he didn't expect this to happen.

Of course, the King of Red Lions is not the only character to name you the Hero. Several other characters from Ancient Hyrule, most, if not all of whom certainly had more contact with the Hero of Old (two of them being Sages) also name Link the Hero.

O Hero! Thank you! O Hero! Use the wind god's wind!

The quote FAQ has these words capitalized. A capitalized use of the word "Hero" generally denotes that somene's referring to the "legendary hero" of that era. Note that this usage comes long before any of the skeptical comments by the Deku Tree and the King of Red Lions.

O great hero, chosen by the Master Sword!

This sounds eerily familar. Where have I heard this before? This is an echo of Rauru's cry in OoT: "The Hero of Time, chosen by the Master Sword!" The fact that this is coming from a Sage makes it even more significant than any of the other quotes we've analyzed thus far.

Are you the new hero?

The "new" Hero. As in, the successor to the old. This quote should pretty much stand for itself; TWW Link has inherited the destiny of the Hero. That in and of itself establishes a connection.

You have done well to find your way to this place. Oh chosen one... Accept this final challenge.
[...]
The path can now be opened. Oh chosen one... What will now happen is tied to fate. Go forward with caution.

Hell, even the gods think TWW Link is the chosen hero. They even go the final mile and add in the "tied to fate" line. The only "fates" tied to the hero that we ever hear of in this game are referenced in the Deku Tree's tale of the King of Red Lion's search for the hero who will defeat the great evil, and the following remarks by Ganondorf:

It can only be called fate...That here, I would again gather the three with the crests...That I should lay my hand on that which grants the wishes of the holder. That when power, wisdom, and courage come together, the gods would have no choice but to come down...The power of the gods... The Triforce!
He who touches it will have whatever he desires granted! Already, the crest of wisdom is mine... All that remains...

Do not fear. I will not kill you... I merely have need of the power that dwells within you. Now! Let us put an end to that which binds us together!

Ganon's remarks all suggest that the events that transpire atop the tower--the gathering of the three with the crests--are a repeat performance of the events that took place in the tower during OoT. He, Zelda, and Link are all "bound together" by the Triforces they carry. That they were "chosen by destiny", "determined by the gods" to inherit those pieces. Ganon has carried his since he took it in OoT; he has not perished, likely due to the seals that were cast upon him. Zelda's has been passed down through her family. Link's has lain at the bottom of the sea after being scattered during his journey away from Hyrule.

Given the nature of inheriting destiny throughout the rest of the series:
1) The Sages inherit their powers through blood;
2) The Royal Family inherits their powers through blood;
3) The Hero from ALttP inherits his powers through the bloods of the Knights;

we can deduce that this trend is probably universal. That, when their time comes, the Sages will be awakened from their respective families; the Royal Family's powers will be passed down throughout the ages; and the Heroes will pass on their legacy from generation to generation.

I have been waiting for you, boy. For one like you... Yes... For the hero. Do not betray my expectations.
[...]
Yes, surely you are the Hero of Time, reborn... Your time has come... Come now... Stand before me!

Surely Link is the Hero of Time, reborn...

Edited by LionHarted, 20 October 2006 - 01:03 PM.


#45 Guest_Hero Of Time_*

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 04:43 PM

Wow, a lot to read here. But after reading this, the Defence of the Split Timeline theory, It got confusing, but yet intresting. By the way, In MM, when Link was looking for a "friend" wasen't he looking for Navi after she left him in the ending of OoT?

#46 Jumbie

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 06:41 PM

Isn't that what you're doing? Didn't you "retcon apart" the OoT ending, to now lead into two different storylines? Or are you going to continue to try to rectify your position?--continue to deny that you're doing something at least equally, and perhaps even more dramatic? I mean, honestly, "retconning apart" the backstory to one game is somewhat difficult to argue, but "retconning apart" the entire continuity?

Oh come on now! OoT's ending has never even made the slightest sense until MM came out, and not even MM made it much better. That is, I didn't retcon apart OoT's ending, because it has never made any sense without a split anyway.

Like hell I don't. "That's right... The Temple of Time is the entrance through which you can enter the Sacred Realm from our world. But the entrance is sealed with a stone wall called the Door of Time. And, in order to open the door, it is said that you need to collect three Spiritual Stones. And another thing you need...is the treasure that the Royal Family keeps along with this legend...The Ocarina of Time!" The Ocarina is kept along with the legend by the Royal Family. Let's please try to refrain from arguing against proof, now, please.

With this you still haven't disproved my statement - that nobody can tell if the common people knew of the location of the entrance to the Sacred Realm before the Ancient Sages hid it away and entrusted the secret to the Royal Family, or if they didn't know it, as you claim without having proof.

Now you're arguing that we have record things that have never happened before they've happened. You literally just affirmed a post that says specifically that.

No, you intelligent person, I haven't <_<

Guess what?--Link didn't tell Zelda about his journey into Termina before it happened. It's absolutely impossible, since he never did it before on either timeline.

Again, watch Link's memory flashback in MM. He did tell Zelda he'd go on a journey, and with that, my statement is correct.

A legend that, before MM even starts, is already "held dearly by the Royal Family"? A legend that already "echoes" in the land of Hyrule? I think I'll pass on your logic, thanks.

Well, that's your bad if you don't see the logic here. It's just what the intro legend says - it echoes in the land of Hyrule during the very same time when Link is actually embarking on that journey, so logically the legend can only know the beginning of this journey, but it still knows *something* of it. Thus, I'm correct.

Well first ill have to say to you guys that was some very impressive work, congrats you two. Also i cant believe i read all that and i can only imagine how much time that took you guys :P

Thank you very much! :)

Also the translation of the Hylia text in WW is it legit? didnt know that.

Yes, it's legit. The translation we used came from Beno and Zethar-II respectively.

Also guys after reading all that i thought that something like this would not escape you. To back your article and the split timilne theory as a hole there was a sentence in WW that clarifies it very well and that is the king of Red Lions saying that there was a possibility that this hero did not have any relationship with the hero told in the legends ergo the hero of time in OOT. I believe some stuff will be better left out for us to assume in TP.

I basically agree with what LionHarted just wrote out about this, that's why we didn't use this quote in our article.

i think that the lineage might have started in the Link from TP ergo making the Link from WW not having a connection with the Link from OOT.

Perfectly possible. Although, I personally don't think reincarnations in Zelda have to depend on bloodlines, but coincidence.

A few things regarding the lineage of the Hero in TWW:

That was a really nice 'article' here! You got most things right, I'd say, although the way the Hero is reincarnated (by bloodline or not) doesn't play much of a role for me.

#47 LionHarted

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 06:52 PM

That is, I didn't retcon apart OoT's ending, because it has never made any sense without a split anyway.

You don't see me saying a split doesn't make sense. You see me saying a split isn't supported by canon. OoT's ending makes perfect sense either way.

With this you still haven't disproved my statement - that nobody can tell if the common people knew of the location of the entrance to the Sacred Realm before the Ancient Sages hid it away and entrusted the secret to the Royal Family, or if they didn't know it, as you claim without having proof.

You're missing the point. Ganondorf is said to have rediscovered the Realm after the location was lost to the chosen few, who are the Royal Family. This means that Ganondorf cannot have "rediscovered" the entrance at any time during which the Royal Family still kept this information. This bit of storyline was overlooked in the writing of OoT, and single-theorists believe that this, along with some other inconsistencies, like Ganon having the whole Triforce in ALttP, were cause enough for the developers to try to retcon the pre-ALttP events to better reflect the state of things that we see in ALttP. So single-theorists fill the gap of hundreds of years between the Seal War and ALttP with TWW and the Four Sword saga, which gives us a whole 'nother Ganon and a Royal Family with no apparent knowledge of the Sacred Realm--essentially a clean slate, inconsistency-free, to lead into ALttP.

No, you intelligent person, I haven't

The legend of him going on a journey exists before he actually goes on it?

Well, we read it in the beginning of MM, so effictively yes.

It's just what the intro legend says - it echoes in the land of Hyrule during the very same time when Link is actually embarking on that journey, so logically the legend can only know the beginning of this journey, but it still knows *something* of it. Thus, I'm correct.

It takes less than a game day to cross Hyrule Field on horseback. So, less than a day after Link departs, the story has already spread? Amazing! Also, part of the legend echoing across Hyrule speaks of him defeating a great evil. A great evil that never appears. <_< How gullible do you think these people are?

Edited by LionHarted, 20 October 2006 - 06:53 PM.


#48 Jumbie

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 07:47 PM

Ganondorf is said to have rediscovered the Realm after the location was lost to the chosen few, who are the Royal Family. This means that Ganondorf cannot have "rediscovered" the entrance at any time during which the Royal Family still kept this information. This bit of storyline was overlooked in the writing of OoT, and single-theorists believe that this, along with some other inconsistencies, like Ganon having the whole Triforce in ALttP, were cause enough for the developers to try to retcon the pre-ALttP events to better reflect the state of things that we see in ALttP. So single-theorists fill the gap of hundreds of years between the Seal War and ALttP with TWW and the Four Sword saga, which gives us a whole 'nother Ganon and a Royal Family with no apparent knowledge of the Sacred Realm--essentially a clean slate, inconsistency-free, to lead into ALttP.

Ah, I finally see how you think.. Taking everything too literal, as always.
Well, I'm just no single timeliner, so I don't assume any of what you mentioned there.

It takes less than a game day to cross Hyrule Field on horseback. So, less than a day after Link departs, the story has already spread? Amazing! Also, part of the legend echoing across Hyrule speaks of him defeating a great evil. A great evil that never appears. <_< How gullible do you think these people are?

The word "echoes" in the intro legend has always bothered me, seeing as the legend probably wasn't known to the common people, only to Young Zelda. I'm drawing this from the fact that Ganon didn't strike in the Child timeline, as you say, and that no one knows they were even in danger of being ruled by a tyrant. So I think the legend was held by the Royal Family only, among whom it echoed, while none of the commoners knew of it until long after MM, in time for it to become a commonly known legend some centuries before ALttP. This is also the reason why the mention of a hero is forgotten by ALttP, because Zelda kept it a secret.

#49 Arturo

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Posted 21 October 2006 - 05:03 PM

What you say about the text of the beggining of MM is something I cannot accept.

If the legend hasn't happened when the game happens, it means that the legend was written in the future. That would mean in turn that the whole game is nothing but a legend. We would not be seeing the world through Link's eyes, but seeing a legend, much like the Seal War in ALttP or the Hero of Time in TWW.

This has great consequences, such as meaning that MM is not totally canon, but the opposite, as all legends, it's likely to be distorted with time. And MM being a mere legend is something I cannot accept.

Also we have the manga, that though not canonic, shows us to an extent the developer's view, shows a peaceful Hyrule when Link left it. If you remember Child OoT, Ganondorf had already attacked Hyrule Castle, that surrended, escaping Impa with Zelda. That's not exactly a peaceful time. So MM must happen in a Hyrule where Ganon is not a problem (remember the flashback about the Princess, if Ganondorf was around she wouldn't be able to give Link the Ocarina), contrary to Child OoT.

#50 Alardonin

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 08:38 AM

Waitaminute--weren't you saying earlier that Link had "no connection to the legendary one", O mighty Masted One? I guess you were wrong, old man--Link is the true hero, the one you have sought--you were just too short-sighted to see it. Notice also the King's apparent surprise that Link was actually able to carry the Triforce of Courage "within" him. Obviously he didn't expect this to happen.


Well i the mighty Masted One... will have to ask you if you know what the word theory means, lets just leave it at that and i think you should go read what i said because you interpreted it horribly. Personaly i coulnt care less if it would be correct or not, its just one of many. Only need this part in all that you have writen to write a possibility that is perfectly possible, regardless of the many interpretations you could get from the King of Red Lions words and actually the King of Red Lions words could be interpreted like what i regarded.

Jabun: If you have sought me out...it must mean you have found the Hero of Time, does it not?
King of Red Lions: Unfortunately, that is not so.
Jabun: Then for what purpose have you come to see me?
King of Red Lions: The one I have brought with me has no connection to the legendary one. And yet I sense great promise in the courage that this one possesses.

He does say that he does not have a connection with the legendary one, like i said, but he still expected greatness of him and i mean greatness in the level of the hero. Also they are talking about the hero of time if going by the theory of the title uniqueness it would be true that link would not have any connection whatsoever with that title. I could put this more simply and more correct but i guess i dont need to.

Now lets see never did i regard that the hero of WW is not a Hero or that he didnt come from from what your calling the legendary one by the legendary one i presume you mean the hero of time what i meant to say was something like this.

If you believe that the name or title of the hero of time is unique from the title hero does that in any way disprove the possibility that such a title would be regained again by someone, after all its just a title. What im trying to say is that there is a possibility that the hero in TP going throw its possible uniqueness will also be regarded as the hero of time. In OOT the hero had to wait seven years to be able to be regarded as the hero of time, you could also believe that such a title is gained do to his travel in time. But if that is not the case then there is a possibility that the hero from WW has a connection with what your calling the legendary one. Only, that the legendary one is not the Hero from OOT but it might be the hero from TP. He already is in his right age, he has to pull the Master Sword out of its pedestal as well, of course this could mean that the hero in WW is not taking the Master Sword out of the pedestal of time. I have [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of theories about that but im not going to do that here lets just fast forward.

The hero of time disappers. Then comes another hero the hero from TP, he gets to be known as the hero of time as well. The problem his story will latter not be accounted in the legends as WW tells us, does making the King of Red Lions not realize its existence nor his connection. Now there is [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of theories regarding the heros lineage: Reincarnation, the simple continuation of the blood line or a the connection to the Knights of Hyrule etc. If going by one of this examples and im not just regarding the words spoken in WW, because they could also just be adressing the title, like i hinted up there to some extent. Link could possibly not have a connection with the hero that everybody knows, but it could however have a connection with the hero that was not known in the legends of hyrule. The hero being Link from TP. The Link from TP could have been the start of the lineage of the Future timeline. I could put this more complete but i think its enough. Of course if going by the way of the article merged with the Hero of Time uniqueness. The child timeline would need another Hero of Time as well, to take the Master Sword out of the pedestal.

#51 Hero of Legend

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 09:25 AM

This has great consequences, such as meaning that MM is not totally canon, but the opposite, as all legends, it's likely to be distorted with time. And MM being a mere legend is something I cannot accept.

Not really. MM's intro is the legend of how the HoT left Hyrule in search of his friend, but that doesn't mean the game itself is any less canon. Most Zelda games have a similar structure where the legend in the intro flows directly into the start of the game.

Besides, Nintendo didn't make MM just to confuse people, so you damn better believe its canon.

So I think the legend was held by the Royal Family only, among whom it echoed, while none of the commoners knew of it until long after MM, in time for it to become a commonly known legend some centuries before ALttP. This is also the reason why the mention of a hero is forgotten by ALttP, because Zelda kept it a secret.

But the legend is about Link. They can't have forgotten him.

Also, I know you've heard this before, but:

In the land of Hyrule, there echoes a legend. A legend held dearly by the Royal Family that tells of a boy...

A boy who, after battling evil and saving Hyrule, crept away from the land that had made him a legend...

Done with the battles he once waged across time, he embarked on a journey.

When the Hero of Time was called to embark on another journey and left the land of Hyrule, he was separated from the elements that made him a hero.

Gee, I think the King's story matches up pretty darn well with the intro of MM. He's even royal and all.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 22 October 2006 - 09:36 AM.


#52 Arturo

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 09:37 AM

The King is not rephering to that, but to when he was sent to the past. remember the Hylian traslation that says that Link had gone through the flows of time.

And assuming that the legend of MM was written at a time before TWW would mean that the game is not canonic, at least not entirely. In the other games that beging with a legend, it tells half accurately a legend of the past. In this game, the legend is the game itself.

#53 Hero of Legend

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 10:01 AM

The King is not rephering to that, but to when he was sent to the past. remember the Hylian traslation that says that Link had gone through the flows of time.

Well, that is a matter of interpretation. My point was that the King does echo the words of MM's legend regardless of what you think the intro says.

And about that:

Posted Image

Which way is Link leaving Hyrule in this picture? Through time or on a horse?

I will admit, I am leaning towards the latter.

Incidentally, the Dual Link Single Timeline theory includes both scenarios and thereby does not contradict any of the in-game material.

And assuming that the legend of MM was written at a time before TWW would mean that the game is not canonic, at least not entirely. In the other games that beging with a legend, it tells half accurately a legend of the past. In this game, the legend is the game itself.

As I see it, the legend is simply the tale of how Link left Hyrule. The game is what happened on that journey.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 22 October 2006 - 10:03 AM.


#54 Arturo

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 10:58 AM

Of course, the legend tells how he left Hyrule. What I say is that the legend is created at the time Link leaves Hyrule, because beleiving the opposite would mean that MM is also a legend of the past.

Regarding the picture, note that the horse is equipped as he is in Adult OoT, unlike how he leaves Hyrule in MM. This is a clear indication that they are talking about the Adult Link. And since they had seen him with the horse many times and Zelda presumably told them that he left Hyrule, in their mind they thought he left it on his horse.

#55 LionHarted

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 11:15 AM

So the legend of the Hero of Time who saved Hyrule leaving on a journey after going back in time came about before he ever saved Hyrule?

What?

#56 Arturo

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 11:17 AM

Spliiiiiiiiiiit Timeline

The world is already saved. Deal with it.

Edited by Arturo, 22 October 2006 - 11:17 AM.


#57 LionHarted

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 11:25 AM

Spliiiiiiiiiiit Timeline

The world is already saved. Deal with it.

assssssssssumption.

#58 Arturo

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 11:28 AM

It's seen in the flashback and in the manga.

And if the legend is told, it's that it has happened, not that it will happen.

#59 LionHarted

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 02:20 PM

It's funny that you're using points I don't even believe in as proofs, like the idea that the legend of this journey was passed down
1) before it was completed;
2) chronologically before the Hero of Time who it refers to ever saved the land;

Guess what? Just because it's your opinion does not make it fact. There is no canon to support your conclusion--it's entirely interpretational.

#60 Arturo

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 02:26 PM

There is canon.

The flasback.

if you remember OoT, the Child part was not peaceful at all. We have Ganondorf attacking Hyrule Castle, Impa and Zelda fleeing...

But in the end of OoT, we see Zelda in the Castle Courtyard. Since Zelda told us to lay the MS and close the DoT and the DoT was open, it's clear that Link comes back to a time where he has already opened the DoT. But guess what? Zelda is back in the castle. This can only mean something: that Ganondorf is not around anymore: he has been sealed. So the thing is done. In MM's flashback we see again Princess Zelda, clearly in a peaceful context. Why? Because Ganondorf is not around. The legend has already happened, Link is already a Hero. But only the Royal Family knows it because those things happened in the Adult Timeline.




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