399 replies to this topic

[Arturo]

Alastair, on Jul 6 2006, 12:03 PM, said:

Do we know that the Triforce tends to combine ?
Many games focus on Link trying to force the Triforce/pieces of the Triforce to combine. Off the top of my head I cannot think of an example where two pieces of the Triforce have combined together of their own accord. No doubt someone will prove me wrong.
Zelda not having the ToW does not in any way imply that Ganondorf does, though he may do.

Throughout this thread an inability to disprove a theory has been cited as proof that it is correct (apologies Arturo as it is not just you). I cannot prove that the Easter Bunny does not exist, but you would have a hard time convincing me that he does.

The Triforce pieces tend to combine if let alone. That's what Ganondorf states in OoT (Read commentary above). Do you remember the battle between Ganondorf and Link in OoT? The pieces were trying to combine into one, that's stated by Ganondorf EXPLICITLY. It's not a theory, but a fact that they tend to combine. Read what I said, IF LET ALONE. In LoZ and TWW, the Triforce pieces were kept sealed, so that they wouldn't combine (In LoZ they are guarded by monsters inside dungeons and in TWW they either have already got a holder (ToW) or are kept hidden in the sea (ToC)) The Pieces never combine into one throughout any game just because neither of its holders dies, nor it's separated from the Triforce. While the Triforce tends to combine, it can be done just by artificial ways, that is, you can split a piece of the Triforce, but it will never split by itself: the King says: "When the Hero of Time was called to
embark on another journey and left the land of Hyrule, he was separated from the elements that made him a hero. It is said that at that time, the Triforce of Courage was split into eight shards and hidden throughout the land." They divided the ToC in order to avoid it from going to ganon's hands. It seems that the only thing they can do to stop the three Triforces combining is dividing them into pieces. That sense they are like magnets, the bigger they are, the bigger they atract each other.

You are right in what you say about not being able to disprove a theory doesn't mean that's correct. But the case I presented is different. I have given a theory that fits with an evidence (Door of Time open, Zelda in Courtyard) None of the other theories fit that evidence, except the Sages' Seal trascending timelines. But they say that my theory is crazy. fanficcish and nonsense, but they are far from proving me wrong, or finding another theory that fits the evidence.

[SOAP]

A quick note: In LoZ, when Ganon dies, the Triforce of Power just lies there. It doesn't automatically combine with Link's Triforce of Wisdom. Link had go over and pick it up.

OoT is pretty clear that the only way the Triforce recombines if all three chosen carriers of the Triforce are brought together in one spot.

[Jumbie]

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Fyxe:
I believe the scale is different. When you see Link on the mast in LA... The ship is much larger than the one in the Oracle games.

I don't think so. The zoom-in on Link waving goodbye in OoX just has him standing on the very edge of the ship's bow, which makes it appear as if it was as small as the KoRL. But the full sprite makes clear that the ship is the very same size in both games.

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Fyxe:
If you want more evidence, the final Nightmare takes on the form of Ganon and Agahnim as they appeared in ALttP, clearly drawing off Link's previous encounters.

That's not evidence to me, since my theory is that the components of the Wind Fish's dream were taken from the memories of *every incarnation of Link that ever existed*, not just from this particular LA Link. This is not illogical, with the Wind Fish being a deity. It also opens the possibility that the final Nightmare, Deth-I, is the memory of Vaati.

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Fyxe:
Also, Marin looks like Zelda from ALttP, and Link is depicted in *exactly* the same way.

Aha, so Marin looks like Zelda... very interesting. Then, Zelda is that red-haired farmer girl whose dad is called Talon?
No honestly, Link's first impression of Marin may have been as if it was Zelda, but certainly not because of her appearance, but because of her charisma.
And even if so, Marin would also look exactly like Zelda from OoX. The used artwork style is NEVER evidence. Or would you deduce that TMC is a sequel of TWW, because Link looks the same?!

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Fyxe:
Hey, you're the one basing your ideas on fanart. ¬.¬

I never said that. Here's what I did say:

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Of course I don't take fanart as canon, but the in-game map of AoL looks just the same, only less detailed than the fanart.

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Arturo:
I have just noticed a proof fopr being ALttP Link the same as LA Link. In OoX Link has the Triforce mark, while in LA he doesn't.

Hm, nice find indeed! But I wouldn't call it proof. Link has not got the Triforce mark in MM either, even though he had it at the child ending of OoT. Also, the mark not appearing on LA Link is a "reverse design mistake". When they made LA, there was no need to depict Link with the Triforce mark, only later in OoX they did it differently. As there's no way to correct the graphics in LA anymore, this cannot count as proof.

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Alastair:
I cannot prove that the Easter Bunny does not exist, but you would have a hard time convincing me that he does.

[kidding]He does exist, I've seen him when I was five or so... What, don't believe me?[/kidding]

[Fyxe]

Tri-Enforcer, on Jul 6 2006, 10:43 AM, said:

I think when OOT came along Nintendo just gave it a fresher look. I should note that, I'm starting to linger away from using the marks as a way help determine the storyline, as the use of the marks in Zelda games and official art are very inconsitant.

But within the internal logic of OoT, it means Link has the ToC. Why confuse the players by putting it there if it meant something else all of a sudden?

Jumbie, on Jul 6 2006, 02:34 PM, said:

I don't think so. The zoom-in on Link waving goodbye in OoX just has him standing on the very edge of the ship's bow, which makes it appear as if it was as small as the KoRL. But the full sprite makes clear that the ship is the very same size in both games.

Does it? I didn't think it did. It's just a sprite, and those seagulls look pretty big. And that bow is very very small.

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That's not evidence to me, since my theory is that the components of the Wind Fish's dream were taken from the memories of *every incarnation of Link that ever existed*, not just from this particular LA Link. This is not illogical, with the Wind Fish being a deity. It also opens the possibility that the final Nightmare, Deth-I, is the memory of Vaati.

Yeah, cos Nintendo totally planned it that way.

Sorry, but that is fanfic.

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Aha, so Marin looks like Zelda... very interesting. Then, Zelda is that red-haired farmer girl whose dad is called Talon?

Now who's being the jerk? I'm beginning to prefer arguing with Tri-Enforcer. At least he knows more. The manual says Marin looks like Zelda, and they do share some distinct facial similarities.

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No honestly, Link's first impression of Marin may have been as if it was Zelda, but certainly not because of her appearance, but because of her charisma.

If anything, their personalities are quite different.

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And even if so, Marin would also look exactly like Zelda from OoX. The used artwork style is NEVER evidence.

It is. That's what evidence is. It's not PROOF, but it's evidence, and since LA was released as a SEQUEL to ALttP, then, uh, makes sense they use the same art style for Link, right? Because they're the same and all.

Also, the art style in the Oracle games is different.

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Hm, nice find indeed! But I wouldn't call it proof. Link has not got the Triforce mark in MM either, even though he had it at the child ending of OoT.

Bad debunk, we know that the marks in OoT aren't always there.

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Also, the mark not appearing on LA Link is a "reverse design mistake". When they made LA, there was no need to depict Link with the Triforce mark, only later in OoX they did it differently.

Or maybe there was no need to depict the mark because IT WAS A SEQUEL TO ALttP.

Edited by Fyxe, 06 July 2006 - 08:48 AM.

[Jumbie]

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Fyxe: Now who's being the jerk? I'm beginning to prefer arguing with Tri-Enforcer. At least he knows more. The manual says Marin looks like Zelda, and they do share some distinct facial similarities.

You think I knew less than him, and (implicitly) also less than you? How arrogant. Didn't I say that Link's first impression of Marin may have been as if it was Zelda? I'm sure able to look into LA's manual.
Okay now, here comes a rarity in that thread: Someone admits that he was wrong Marin does have some features of Zelda, but her overall looks resemble Malon. As does the name.

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If anything, their personalities are quite different.

Once again, you put words into my mouth that I never said I said charisma, not personality. I don't know if both words are synonyms in English, but in my native language charisma means that special air a person has regardless of their looks and regardless of their personality. (But don't think I'm esoteric, its still based on a biological, visual thing, okay...)

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It's not PROOF, but it's evidence, and since LA was released as a SEQUEL to ALttP, then, uh, makes sense they use the same art style for Link, right? Because they're the same and all.

Surprising that you cut out the most important sentences of my posts... Again, can TMC be mistaken as a sequel to TWW because of the art style?

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Also, the art style in the Oracle games is different.

Yes, OoX Link has got white trousers now instead of none, and his eyes are larger. Know what, they also corrected the ALttP artwork for the GBA version so that Link looks more manga-like. But I'm still convinced that artwork doesn't qualify as evidence for timeline-placing.

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Bad debunk, we know that the marks in OoT aren't always there.

Nothing debunked - you keep misunderstanding me. I only explained why Arturo's point isn't proof for me. That's just it: the Triforce marks are not always there. So LA Link needn't have the mark on his hand, assuming that he's the same Link as in OoX.

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Or maybe there was no need to depict the mark because IT WAS A SEQUEL TO ALttP.

Ok ok, you got me so far to say that LA was once ALttP's sequel - but not anymore. Trust me, it really hurts to argue in a similar way as the "OoT isn't IW" supporters, but at least LA and ALttP aren't that connected as OoT and ALttP are. That should suffice to save my sinning soul..


One other thing: I fully share Arturo's theory that the Sages' Seal is transcending timelines, and I'm not able to prove it either. (Only so you can start to hack away at me )

[MikePetersSucks]

*Completely murders Jumbie and tosses his body into a ditch. A dark ditch of um...sunshine and happiness.*

[Arturo]

Jumbie, on Jul 6 2006, 04:48 PM, said:

You think I knew less than him, and (implicitly) also less than you? How arrogant. Didn't I say that Link's first impression of Marin may have been as if it was Zelda? I'm sure able to look into LA's manual.
Okay now, here comes a rarity in that thread: Someone admits that he was wrong Marin does have some features of Zelda, but her overall looks resemble Malon. As does the name.
Once again, you put words into my mouth that I never said I said charisma, not personality. I don't know if both words are synonyms in English, but in my native language charisma means that special air a person has regardless of their looks and regardless of their personality. (But don't think I'm esoteric, its still based on a biological, visual thing, okay...)

You two, calm down a little bit. If not I will bwahahahaha.


Now, on topic, I think Fyxe is right here. Marin looks like Zelda, and this is stated EXPLICITLY in the manual. But also Jumbie has a point here, more important than the extaernal aspect or the personality is her charisma, and her charisma is Zel's. And Marin doesn't look like Malon, it's the other way round. And also Aryll resembles Marin, though not so much. But Marin is still Zelda.

Jumbie, on Jul 6 2006, 04:48 PM, said:

Ok ok, you got me so far to say that LA was once ALttP's sequel - but not anymore. Trust me, it really hurts to argue in a similar way as the "OoT isn't IW" supporters, but at least LA and ALttP aren't that connected as OoT and ALttP are. That should suffice to save my sinning soul..

Kodai no Sekiban says explicitly Link is somewhere. That's enough proof for me.

Jumbie, on Jul 6 2006, 04:48 PM, said:

One other thing: I fully share Arturo's theory that the Sages' Seal is transcending timelines, and I'm not able to prove it either. (Only so you can start to hack away at me )

Vielen Dank!!!! Now I have someone in the forums that can defend my positions when I'm not here.

'Fyxe' said

Now who's being the jerk? I'm beginning to prefer arguing with Tri-Enforcer. At least he knows more. The manual says Marin looks like Zelda, and they do share some distinct facial similarities.

I know Jumbie from outside the forums and I know what he knows better than you do, since I have spoken many times with him. And he's a pretty intelligent person. So you are. He's only stubborn regarding LA position . I have tried to convince him to put LA after ALttP but... I don't know what you think about me (that I am crazy are something like that) but believe me, he's a good person to discuss with.

(Don't mind me, just fixing your quote tags...) - Showsni

Edited by Showsni, 06 July 2006 - 05:27 PM.

[Jumbie]

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MikePetersSucks: *Completely murders Jumbie and tosses his body into a ditch. A dark ditch of um...sunshine and happiness.*

Urrghh... Thx.. for.. redeemin me
*completely dies in this thread, and resurrects in the Split Timeline thread*

...a whisper on the wind... "Leave this place and come over, Arturo!" ...

[spunky-monkey]

Chill out everyone...otherwise the mods might just decide to kill off this thread.

SOAP, on Jul 6 2006, 01:12 PM, said:

A quick note: In LoZ, when Ganon dies, the Triforce of Power just lies there. It doesn't automatically combine with Link's Triforce of Wisdom. Link had go over and pick it up.

It couldn't combine because Link did not the Triforce of Courage yet.

Jumbie, on Jul 6 2006, 02:34 PM, said:

That's not evidence to me, since my theory is that the components of the Wind Fish's dream were taken from the memories of *every incarnation of Link that ever existed*, not just from this particular LA Link. This is not illogical, with the Wind Fish being a deity. It also opens the possibility that the final Nightmare, Deth-I, is the memory of Vaati.

That's nothing but fan-fiction Jumbie. Nintendo has already said that LA is the direct sequel to ALttP before. We have known this to be fact since 1993 for crying out loud. If your argument was remotely true then we would have seen various incarnations of Shadow Link, Phantom Ganon, Majora and so on.

[Fyxe]

Arturo, on Jul 6 2006, 05:13 PM, said:

I know Jumbie from outside the forums and I know what he knows better than you do, since I have spoken many times with him.

But you haven't talked to me, so how can you know he knows better than I do?

To quote Tri-Enforcer...
'Shut up'.

Anyway, I'm pissed off because I wrote a whole reply to Jumbie's post but it got erased. I can't be bothered to write it all again right now. Just... Jumbie, stop being so self-biased in your ideas.

[Doopliss]

Tri-Enforcer, on Jul 6 2006, 04:43 AM, said:

Dooplis, it's not that I feel the scenes are exactly the same, since the two scenes are really not. Just because I say you go back in the past to a certain point doesn't mean things have to happen exactly the same way. In the final scene, this time around, Link instead stops before he gets close to Zelda. Maybe it's because he's in awe that he's meeting her AGAIN for the first time. You ever see someone that you're glad to see and instead of you saying anything you just stare at that person briefly, or have you ever seen a movie or some sort of love story in which a moment like this happens? Why does Zelda turn around...? well if you're alone sometimes you tend to look behind yourself (especially if you're snooping around) or sometimes one may get a feeling like, 'I'm not alone.' Also, as I've pointed out earlier and what SOAP just touched on, if you consider the final scene to take place after Ganon attacked, it wouldn't be a good idea for Zelda to return to the castle, not knowing Ganon's status.

This is fine.

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The crest? Why not in the first meeting, but now this time around? Like I said before the mark could very well be a symbol that Link either once possessed the ToC to accomplish his tasks across time, and that he's worthy of the ToC. In AoL and Oracles, Link has the mark even though he does not have the Triforce in the beginning of those games, also the same can be said of TP if notice official art work and screenshots of Link early on in that upcoming game. Many may argue that crest in AoL is different from the ones in OOT and TWW, but I just think it's just a difference in art. Obviously you can't see the mark on AoL's eight-bit sprite, but the mark is shown in artwork from the manual. I think when OOT came along Nintendo just gave it a fresher look. I should note that, I'm starting to linger away from using the marks as a way help determine the storyline, as the use of the marks in Zelda games and official art are very inconsitant.

I don't agree on this. If there is a reason for the crest to appear the second time, it must have appeared the first time. By the way, Arturo has a good point on this

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As for two Links? Rauru and Zelda explained to Link that his 'spirit' was stored away in the Sacred Realm for seven years. This is stated in the game, mind you. So I believe that when Link travels through time--it is his spirit that's traveling back and forth--not his body. This totally eliminates the idea of a physical double.
I think that only applies when they're close together. In TWW, the King explained that when the Hero of Time went away from the elements that made him legend, the ToC was shattered and hidden--it didn't go to Ganon.... I mean we all only had to recollect ToC pieces ourselves in TWW, duh.

That's true, but Link can't travel only consciously to a point in time before he pulled the Master Sword because his body had never been there before.

MikePetersSucks, on Jul 6 2006, 11:02 AM, said:

*Completely murders Jumbie and tosses his body into a ditch. A dark ditch of um...sunshine and happiness.*

May I dig the ditch?

Manifestation pacifique en raison du Pie Forum. Jour 4. X

[Hero of Slime]

Since this thread is now for discussing the perfect single timeline is the end of OoT important? Why argue when we know the resolution is TWW?

[Arturo]

'Fyxe' said

But you haven't talked to me, so how can you know he knows better than I do?

To quote Tri-Enforcer...
'Shut up'.

I NEVER said that you know less than him, I just have said that I know him better than you do. That is, you hardly know Jumbie, but I have spoken with him many times, therefore I know him better than you. English is not my mother language but I think I left it clear enough. I said in my message that you are intelligent. So please, act as you are.

'Ricky' said

That's nothing but fan-fiction Jumbie. Nintendo has already said that LA is the direct sequel to ALttP before. We have known this to be fact since 1993 for crying out loud. If your argument was remotely true then we would have seen various incarnations of Shadow Link, Phantom Ganon, Majora and so on.

Though I don't believe his theory, here I am ging to deffend him. Do you remember that infamous Miyamoto order? He said that LA could come at any time, not just after ALttP. So it's not so fanficcish. Anyway, I am sure LA comes after ALttP

'MikePetersSucks' said

*Completely murders Jumbie and tosses his body into a ditch. A dark ditch of um...sunshine and happiness.*

'Jumbie' said

Urrghh... Thx.. for.. redeemin me
*completely dies in this thread, and resurrects in the Split Timeline thread*

...a whisper on the wind... "Leave this place and come over, Arturo!" ...

Oh no, why have you abandoned us? I will never have a supporter again. I feel so lonely... *Commits seppukku and resurrects in Split Timeline thread*

I will come back to haunt you all!! Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!

P.S. Thanks to Showsny for editing my post!

[Fyxe]

Arturo, on Jul 7 2006, 10:01 AM, said:

I NEVER said that you know less than him, I just have said that I know him better than you do. That is, you hardly know Jumbie, but I have spoken with him many times, therefore I know him better than you. English is not my mother language but I think I left it clear enough. I said in my message that you are intelligent. So please, act as you are.

The way you said it made it sound like 'I know he knows better than you do'. I missed the 'what' in the middle. Sorry, but it was an easy mistake and I was already cheesed off from losing my other post...

[Fatgoron]

I think a few of us have overlooked an important detail of the courtyard scene.
At this point, Zelda does not know of Ganondorf's whereabouts, to the best of our knowledge. (that is to say that the canon provides no clues as to where he is which would be within the ken of any character outside the sacred realm)
The only two peope who know where Ganondorf is at this point in time, to the best of our knowledge, are Rauru, and Link, and possibly anyone who followed him into the sacred realm.
From everyone else's perspective Ganondorf dropped off of the face of the earth/Hyrule.

With Ganondorf gone, and the castle no longer unser-siege, what reason does Zelda have to remain away from the castle?
Recall that she was whisked away on horseback in response to a specific threat against the castle, which was happening at the time that decision was made.
Again, when the entire force that attacked the castle has either dispersed or dissapeared, what danger is there at the castle? Certainly less so than in a countryside infested with so many monsters that one cannot travel between any two major landmarks without at last seeing something that wants to kill them.
Compared to a fortified castle, nestled in a hillside, protected by armed guards, and surrounded by an entire town containing a significant portion of the population of the area that we are able to explore, there is little to no safety out in the open.


The above explains the condition of the Triforce at the end of OoT nicely enough.
Given that we know the ToW can be split and reunited multiple times, as evidenced by TWW, and LoZ, it is less of a stretch to say that young Zelda split it, then reunited it later in her life, than to contradict established behaviours of the Triforce (at the very least acording to OoT's internal logic) or to speculate about the possibility of Ganondorf being sealed 7 years prior to the seal being created.


I'll put my fire-shield on.

[Arturo]

Fyxe, on Jul 7 2006, 02:43 PM, said:

The way you said it made it sound like 'I know he knows better than you do'. I missed the 'what' in the middle. Sorry, but it was an easy mistake and I was already cheesed off from losing my other post...

It's OK . I just wanted to say that he's not the way you implied you think he is. I consider the Timeline Debate a little bit like the "Realm of intelligence" since what we do with Zelda is simmillar to what filologists do with Hamlet, for example. And, believe me, you are one of the most intelligent timeline theorists I have found.

It's normal you misinterpreted my comment because I didn't say it explicitly enough (English as foreign language, anyone?) and you were already quite angry with the problem with Jumbie's post.

[mohammedali]

Fatgoron, on Jul 8 2006, 01:56 AM, said:

I think a few of us have overlooked an important detail of the courtyard scene.
At this point, Zelda does not know of Ganondorf's whereabouts, to the best of our knowledge. (that is to say that the canon provides no clues as to where he is which would be within the ken of any character outside the sacred realm)
The only two peope who know where Ganondorf is at this point in time, to the best of our knowledge, are Rauru, and Link, and possibly anyone who followed him into the sacred realm.
From everyone else's perspective Ganondorf dropped off of the face of the earth/Hyrule.

With Ganondorf gone, and the castle no longer unser-siege, what reason does Zelda have to remain away from the castle?
Recall that she was whisked away on horseback in response to a specific threat against the castle, which was happening at the time that decision was made.
Again, when the entire force that attacked the castle has either dispersed or dissapeared, what danger is there at the castle? Certainly less so than in a countryside infested with so many monsters that one cannot travel between any two major landmarks without at last seeing something that wants to kill them.
Compared to a fortified castle, nestled in a hillside, protected by armed guards, and surrounded by an entire town containing a significant portion of the population of the area that we are able to explore, there is little to no safety out in the open.


The above explains the condition of the Triforce at the end of OoT nicely enough.
Given that we know the ToW can be split and reunited multiple times, as evidenced by TWW, and LoZ, it is less of a stretch to say that young Zelda split it, then reunited it later in her life, than to contradict established behaviours of the Triforce (at the very least acording to OoT's internal logic) or to speculate about the possibility of Ganondorf being sealed 7 years prior to the seal being created.


I'll put my fire-shield on.

This arguement is rather circular. You're assuming the ending takes place after the MS was touched (which is what is being debated), and then you're using that assumption to justify that the ending could theoritically come after the MS was touched! To add to this, you've also included a whole host of assumptions about Ganon's whereabouts, and those that know of it without any proof. Finally, the arguement doesn't even hold. If Zelda doesn't know where Ganon is, you'd think she'd stay in hiding just incase he's waiting somewhere for her to come out again. In any case, the reasoning you gave above is by no means solid.

If you want to look at this objectively, you need to consider the evidence there is, not the unsuggested posibilities.

Mohammed Ali

[Fatgoron]

mohammedali, on Jul 8 2006, 01:24 PM, said:

This arguement is rather circular. You're assuming the ending takes place after the MS was touched (which is what is being debated), and then you're using that assumption to justify that the ending could theoritically come after the MS was touched! To add to this, you've also included a whole host of assumptions about Ganon's whereabouts, and those that know of it without any proof. Finally, the arguement doesn't even hold. If Zelda doesn't know where Ganon is, you'd think she'd stay in hiding just incase he's waiting somewhere for her to come out again. In any case, the reasoning you gave above is by no means solid.

If you want to look at this objectively, you need to consider the evidence there is, not the unsuggested posibilities.

Mohammed Ali

You seem to have been reading a different post to the one I made. I've mentioned nothing of unsuggested possibilities.

I'm using Link having the ToC to justify the ending being after Ganondorf entered the sacred realm, which in turn makes it after the MS was touched.
Link clearly has the ToC, since it's glowing/resonating (which has consistently been shown to convey ownership, save for the new behaviour shown in TWW, where Tetra's piece faded in and out of opacity/transparency), which can only be after the MS has been pulled

I've assumed nothing whatsoever about Ganon's whereabouts. We know, for a fact, that Ganondorf entered the SR. We know that Ganondorf used his newly gained powers to destroy the castle after he exited the sacred realm. ALttP tells us that he spent some time gathering his forces before attacking, and MM shows Link speaking to Zelda in the past, at what is supposed to be, some months after the ending of OoT.

Here are events we know happened:
Ganondorf enters sacred realm > Ganondorf obtains ToP, splitting the triforce/Ganondorf spends indeterminate amount of time time in Sacred Realm > Ganondorf destroys Hyrule Castle.

Here is an event we observe:
> Link approaches Zelda in the castle courtyard, while in posession of the ToC.

Since we have no information pertaining to Ganondorf's whereabouts or actions between leaving the SR and destroying HC, the most obvious conclusion is that he does so, more or less, immediately after returning to the LW.

The observed event can only fit between Ganon being in the SR, and Ganon destroying the castle.
Since aLttP suggests that Ganon(dorf)'s influence is limited to the realm in which he resides (limited influence over Hyrule whilst in SR, required a type of avatar to be present that was still of only limited use), it makes sense that he would have to return to the LW in order to do so.

So, given that the castle is intact, and the Triforce has already been split, Ganondorf must still be in the sacred realm at this point.

I'll simplify the reasoning for you, the castle is now safe to return to, the countryside is not/less safe than the castle.
We want to be safe, so where do we go?
The safe place, or the dangerous place?

[Fyxe]

mohammedali, on Jul 8 2006, 01:24 PM, said:

If Zelda doesn't know where Ganon is, you'd think she'd stay in hiding just incase he's waiting somewhere for her to come out again. In any case, the reasoning you gave above is by no means solid.

I just want to point out...

WHERE exactly do Zelda and Impa supposedly hide, anyway? Hyrule is a bit... Limited when it comes to hiding spots. If you ask me the best place to hide is the castle anyway. O.o''

Also, I must also point out that the castle is NOT under siege and it seems to have suffered little harm, although the security is tightened a lot after Ganondorf attacks. If anything, the castle is safer than ever, because nobody in the castle trusts Ganondorf anymore.

[Arturo]

'Fatgoron' said

You seem to have been reading a different post to the one I made. I've mentioned nothing of unsuggested possibilities.
I'm using Link having the ToC to justify the ending being after Ganondorf entered the sacred realm, which in turn makes it after the MS was touched.
Link clearly has the ToC, since it's glowing/resonating (which has consistently been shown to convey ownership, save for the new behaviour shown in TWW, where Tetra's piece faded in and out of opacity/transparency), which can only be after the MS has been pulled
I've assumed nothing whatsoever about Ganon's whereabouts. We know, for a fact, that Ganondorf entered the SR. We know that Ganondorf used his newly gained powers to destroy the castle after he exited the sacred realm. ALttP tells us that he spent some time gathering his forces before attacking, and MM shows Link speaking to Zelda in the past, at what is supposed to be, some months after the ending of OoT.
Here are events we know happened:
Ganondorf enters sacred realm > Ganondorf obtains ToP, splitting the triforce/Ganondorf spends indeterminate amount of time time in Sacred Realm > Ganondorf destroys Hyrule Castle.
Here is an event we observe:
> Link approaches Zelda in the castle courtyard, while in posession of the ToC.
Since we have no information pertaining to Ganondorf's whereabouts or actions between leaving the SR and destroying HC, the most obvious conclusion is that he does so, more or less, immediately after returning to the LW.
The observed event can only fit between Ganon being in the SR, and Ganon destroying the castle.
Since aLttP suggests that Ganon(dorf)'s influence is limited to the realm in which he resides (limited influence over Hyrule whilst in SR, required a type of avatar to be present that was still of only limited use), it makes sense that he would have to return to the LW in order to do so.
So, given that the castle is intact, and the Triforce has already been split, Ganondorf must still be in the sacred realm at this point.
I'll simplify the reasoning for you, the castle is now safe to return to, the countryside is not/less safe than the castle.
We want to be safe, so where do we go?
The safe place, or the dangerous place?

It's all well except for a fact you forgot. You said that Ganon's power is bounded to the SR. That is false. Zelda asserts so, but she's refering to zhis world to be bounded by the Sages' Seal. Moreover Rauru says in OoT that Ganondorf's evil radiated from the Temples of Hyrule. So, at this moment the evil should be radiating from the five temples of Hyrule. But it doesn't, because if it did, Impa and Zelda would still be hidden, because the objective of that evil was to destroy the castle. So, we can assume that in that moment Ganon's power is bounded. But how? The answer is that the Sages' Seal trascends time.

'Fyxe' said

WHERE exactly do Zelda and Impa supposedly hide, anyway? Hyrule is a bit... Limited when it comes to hiding spots. If you ask me the best place to hide is the castle anyway. O.o''
Also, I must also point out that the castle is NOT under siege and it seems to have suffered little harm, although the security is tightened a lot after Ganondorf attacks. If anything, the castle is safer than ever, because nobody in the castle trusts Ganondorf anymore.

It IS under siege, because Impa says so specifically:


On that day seven years ago, Ganondorf suddenly attacked... and Hyrule Castle surrendered after a short time.
Ganondorf's target was one of the keys to the Sacred Realm...the hidden treasure of the Royal Family... The Ocarina of Time!
My duty bound me to take Zelda out of Ganondorf's reach.

And where? Out of Ganonodrf's reach. I don't have any idea of where is that.

[MikePetersSucks]

Quote

WHERE exactly do Zelda and Impa supposedly hide, anyway? Hyrule is a bit... Limited when it comes to hiding spots. If you ask me the best place to hide is the castle anyway. O.o''

Somewhere just outside of the game's reach.

[Fyxe]

Arturo, on Jul 9 2006, 01:29 PM, said:

It IS under siege, because Impa says so specifically:
On that day seven years ago, Ganondorf suddenly attacked... and Hyrule Castle surrendered after a short time.
Ganondorf's target was one of the keys to the Sacred Realm...the hidden treasure of the Royal Family... The Ocarina of Time!
My duty bound me to take Zelda out of Ganondorf's reach.

And where? Out of Ganonodrf's reach. I don't have any idea of where is that.

Funny how Hyrule Castle is full of soldiers still, then? And that there's no sign of Ganondorf anywhere in Hyrule Castle or any sign of unrest in the town?

I think Impa must be referring to when he attacks AFTER getting the Triforce.

MikePetersSucks, on Jul 9 2006, 07:15 PM, said:

Somewhere just outside of the game's reach.

Sneaky moonjumpers.

[Arturo]

Fyxe, on Jul 9 2006, 09:40 PM, said:

I think Impa must be referring to when he attacks AFTER getting the Triforce.

Read it again, please:


"On that day seven years ago, Ganondorf suddenly attacked... and Hyrule Castle surrendered after a short time.
Ganondorf's target was one of the keys to the Sacred Realm...the hidden treasure of the Royal Family... The Ocarina of Time!
My duty bound me to take Zelda out of Ganondorf's reach. When last I saw you, as we made our escape from the castle, you were just a lad...
Now I see that you have become a fine hero..." Impa, Chamber of Sages.

She says explictly that Ganondorf attacked Hyrule Castle to get the Ocarina of Time and because of this, she took Zelda out of his reach. Ganondorf didn't have the Triforce, by then, because, if then why would he want the Ocarina? It doesn't matter what you see, it's more important what Impa says. And Impa says that ganondorf attacked Hyrule to get the Ocarina, no to conquer it.

[mohammedali]

Fatgoron, on Jul 9 2006, 12:06 AM, said:

I'm using Link having the ToC to justify the ending being after Ganondorf entered the sacred realm, which in turn makes it after the MS was touched.

Which can be called into question when considering how Ganon and Zelda both have their respective symbols on their hands, even though the Triforce is no longer in their possession, and the fact that Zelda doesn't seem to have the ToW on her hand even though the piece should resonate along with Links, and Link doesn't have the Goron bracelet which he should have if after the Triforce was touched. It is by no means proven that the Child ending happens after the Triforce was touched, though I'm still open to either possibility.

Quote

Link clearly has the ToC, since it's glowing/resonating (which has consistently been shown to convey ownership, save for the new behaviour shown in TWW, where Tetra's piece faded in and out of opacity/transparency), which can only be after the MS has been pulled

If the ToC is resonating then so should the ToW, and even if Zelda doesn't have the ToW for whatever reason, then this resonating of the ToC is no different to Ganon in the WW ending.

Quote

I've assumed nothing whatsoever about Ganon's whereabouts. We know, for a fact, that Ganondorf entered the SR. We know that Ganondorf used his newly gained powers to destroy the castle after he exited the sacred realm. ALttP tells us that he spent some time gathering his forces before attacking, and MM shows Link speaking to Zelda in the past, at what is supposed to be, some months after the ending of OoT.

And we are told that Impa took Zelda out of Ganon's reach after the event, and that Zelda has been in hiding from Ganon. If she had been hiding from Ganon for 7 years, it means she wasn't in the castle as we know Ganon can get to her there. The only way she could come back to the castle is if she knew Ganon was sealed, and the events that happened in the original 7 years happened differently (either via a split, or via an overwrite).

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So, given that the castle is intact, and the Triforce has already been split, Ganondorf must still be in the sacred realm at this point.

Not good enough. There is no reason to believe that he would attack the castle straight away after coming back from the SR. Just because he's back, doesn't mean the castle has to have fallen. For all we know, Ganon could have been wondering around Hyrule for 3 years before destroying the castle.

Quote

I'll simplify the reasoning for you, the castle is now safe to return to, the countryside is not/less safe than the castle.
We want to be safe, so where do we go?
The safe place, or the dangerous place?

I'll simplify the reasoning for you. Zelda want's to be out of Ganon's reach. She fleds the castle because it was in Ganon's reach and she doesn't know when he might return. As Zelda is in the castle, it implies the castle is now out of Ganon's reach. This can mean one of two things. Either Ganon is no longer an issue due to some restriction/seal, or Ganon attacking the castle hasn't happened yet.

Fyxe, on Jul 9 2006, 04:14 AM, said:

I just want to point out...

WHERE exactly do Zelda and Impa supposedly hide, anyway? Hyrule is a bit... Limited when it comes to hiding spots. If you ask me the best place to hide is the castle anyway. O.o''

The castle has been proven to be in Ganon's reach as Ganon compromised it before. Zelda is out of Ganon's reach. Therefore Zelda is not in the castle if she is hiding from Ganon.

Mohammed Ali

[Doopliss]

Arturo, on Jul 9 2006, 04:08 PM, said:

She says explictly that Ganondorf attacked Hyrule Castle to get the Ocarina of Time and because of this, she took Zelda out of his reach. Ganondorf didn't have the Triforce, by then, because, if then why would he want the Ocarina? It doesn't matter what you see, it's more important what Impa says. And Impa says that ganondorf attacked Hyrule to get the Ocarina, no to conquer it.

So Ganondorf attacked the castle to get to the Sacred Realm. This means that the attack Impa talks about took place before Link got the Ocarina of Time. So Link goes into the Sacred Realm and Ganon follows him into it. Then Zelda can return to the castle while Ganondorf is in the Sacred Realm.

Manifestation pacifique en raison du Pie Forum. Jour 8. XIX

Edited by Doopliss, 10 July 2006 - 12:17 AM.

[Arturo]

Doopliss, on Jul 10 2006, 07:17 AM, said:

So Ganondorf attacked the castle to get to the Sacred Realm. This means that the attack Impa talks about took place before Link got the Ocarina of Time. So Link goes into the Sacred Realm and Ganon follows him into it. Then Zelda can return to the castle while Ganondorf is in the Sacred Realm.

Your staements contradict everything we know about Zelda's whereabouts in OoT. In the Adult Timeline she didn't ever come back to the castle, and it's really possible that Ganonodrf stayed in the SR for a long time. If she didn't come back when Ganondorf was in the SR in the Adult Timeline why would she do so in the Child Timeline? Zelda wouldn't go back to the castle if Ganon wasn't already sealed.

[mohammedali]

Arturo, on Jul 10 2006, 09:56 AM, said:

Your staements contradict everything we know about Zelda's whereabouts in OoT. In the Adult Timeline she didn't ever come back to the castle, and it's really possible that Ganonodrf stayed in the SR for a long time. If she didn't come back when Ganondorf was in the SR in the Adult Timeline why would she do so in the Child Timeline? Zelda wouldn't go back to the castle if Ganon wasn't already sealed.

Exactly. Either the child ending is where Ganon has been sealed and hence Zelda can return, or Link was sent back before the Triforce was touched.

Mohammed Ali

[Arturo]

mohammedali, on Jul 10 2006, 11:22 AM, said:

Exactly. Either the child ending is where Ganon has been sealed and hence Zelda can return, or Link was sent back before the Triforce was touched.

Mohammed Ali

Zelda tells Link to return the MS and close the Door of Time, that is clearly open in the ending. Therefore, Zelda has already flied away. But since Zelda is in the castle, we can assume Ganon has been sealed. It's the only possibility.

[mohammedali]

Arturo, on Jul 10 2006, 01:12 PM, said:

Zelda tells Link to return the MS and close the Door of Time, that is clearly open in the ending. Therefore, Zelda has already flied away. But since Zelda is in the castle, we can assume Ganon has been sealed. It's the only possibility.

Zelda tells Link about returning the MS and closing the DoT in the adult ending, so that's not going to effect what time she sends Link back to in the Child ending. As for the DoT in Child ending, that can be opened without the MS being picked up. The mistake that Zelda talks about was Link picking up the MS instread of hiding the Ocarina away from Ganon. If she sends him to the point where he can choose to pick up the sword, and he doesn't, then it's all well. This leaves the ToC on Links hand, which may be permissable given that Zelda and Ganon still have their pieces in WW ending.
Therefore, either possibilities may happen IMO.

Mohammed Ali

[MikePetersSucks]

Quote

This leaves the ToC on Links hand, which may be permissable given that Zelda and Ganon still have their pieces in WW ending.

Um....no they didn't? Because they made all that fuss about the Triforce being used and the pieces flying off and such.