399 replies to this topic

[Jumbie]

Tri-Enforcer:
Then shut up if you can't explain it.

Hey Mr Nice Guy, why do you have to offend everyone? The only reason I react at all to your wrong theories is for the fun of talking to a wall. I've found out long ago that it's a waste of time to try and explain something to you, because YOU JUST DON'T ACCEPT EVIDENCE!!!
I have to acknowledge that you're excellent at making enemies though. It probably helps to push your ego, I figure...

Tri-Enforcer:
Link looks stoic as usual and the Princess is still stooped down looking into the window as she's doing when you first meet her. She looks worried to me--I'm watching the speedrun of the whole game on my computer. The scenes are pretty much the same with the exception of the Triforce mark.

I didn't talk about Link's and Zelda's facial expressions. More important is their motions, and the places where they stand. This is totally different to the first meeting. The only things that are the same are the setting and the persons.

Tri-Enforcer:
People tend to turn around or look back when someone is coming up behind them--especially if you're alone. That's just common sense.

OH MY GOD, I really am talking to an armored wall Of course they do, but why did Zelda not do it in their first meeting?! She was much too engaged in waiting for Ganondorf to even hear Link approaching!

Tri-Enforcer:
This is part why I believe this and no one else does. You think I care if most people disagree with me on this? You certainly wrote that as if I should. It doesn't make sense for Link to have his, but Zelda not have hers, if you believe the scene takes place after the Triforce split.

Yes, I've made the experience that most people end up accepting something they first didn't believe, if only enough people help them realize it. That process is called "learning", if I remember.
There is no explanation to that Triforce thing, so just use your eyes and realize that Link carries the ToC but Zelda does not carry the ToW. Your eyes, not your brain - only this one time.

[Fyxe]

You mention the word 'you' several times there---you made this comment towards me. It's very obvious. That's just like you to try to twist things around. You're the jerk, Fyxe. Stop acting like you're the victim all the damn time

Alright, you bloody pedantic. LOOK AT WHAT I SAID. I'll capitalise the important bits for you.
I said 'was OoT your first Zelda game', that is just a QUESTION. Then I said NOT THAT IT MATTERS, but it MAY cloud your judgement, 'your' meaning people in general.

But obviously your judgement is pretty damn clouded in the first place.

I am not a victim. I certainly don't feel like one, and I don't see why I should act like I'm one. That doesn't change the fact that you're being a bit of a dick. You can go on doing that 'til the end of time for all I care, but it does get a bit tiresome.

I'll be the better person and not respond to that. If I say what I have in mind, then I'd be banned.

You have no sense of humour, do you? I dunno what you're compensating for that makes you attempt to mock people over the internet for no decent reason, but please leave it out.

You're right it does not change what Zelda said. However, I'm not trying to change what Zelda said. As soon as Link arrives in the past, the mere act of him arriving and not pulling the MS any longer, follows part of Zelda's request.

She wouldn't tell him to put the Master Sword BACK if he was about to remove it.

The other half is fulfilled by reclosing the door of time. Also, if thing can wrong with models, as you point out, it could happen with backgrounds. Oh, I forget, it's only ok for you to use the error excuse.

Yes, because I actually know something about video game design, but you seem to think that a bracelet that nobody else ever noticed is missing is more important than a GERT HOOGE DOOR and in-game dialogue. Honestly, who else noticed that the Goron Bracelet was missing without it having to be pointed out or without peering at the ending desperately trying to spot things?

We see Link being spirited away after Zelda plays the Ocarina, she's still holding it as he leaves.

And she can't send it back after him? Or maybe it could just vanish along with Link and does not necessarily have to be in the beam of time? Or maybe it'll have it's own smaller bit? Or maybe, just maybe, it was never missing from the past anyway.

Like I said before, the mark we see at the end could very well be merely an indicator that Link has overcome a great obstacle in the alternate future and that he's destined for the ToC.

Why? Why would it suddenly mean something else?

And just because one mark glows doesn't mean the other one glows at exactly the same time, why aren't you guys considering that?

Also, Zelda's expression is the standard 'surprised' expression, you can't infer anything more than that. Read was Artuno said, too.

Anyway, I have no desire to keep up a heated arguement with you that involves any more insults. If you're really as old as you think you are, you really should act like it. It's called netiquette. Or common sense. This isn't GameFAQs. We don't need people saying 'shut up' and rude stuff like that, and taking people's comments as if they're directly personal insults when they're not.

Edited by Fyxe, 04 July 2006 - 05:37 PM.

[Showsni]

Simmer down, everyone...

[Jumbie]

Right Showsni, I shall simply ignore that breaker of rules from now on.
Let's continue with what Arturo picked back up, the order of the other games besides OoT.

Order of release:
1. The Legend of Zelda ~ Timeline back then: LoZ
2. The Adventure of Link ~ Timeline b.t.: LoZ > AoL
3. A Link to the Past ~ T.b.t.: ALttP > LoZ > AoL
4. Link's Awakening ~ T.b.t.: ALttP > LA > LoZ > AoL
5. Ocarina of Time ~ T.b.t.: OoT > ALttP > LA > LoZ > AoL
6. Majora's Mask ~ T.b.t.: OoT > MM > ALttP > LA > LoZ > AoL

I hope everyone will agree with this order so far.

Then came Oracle of Ages/Seasons, and the different possibilites started. In the beginning of OoX, the Triforce is united, so these games can only take place after a game where the Triforce was united in the ending:
a] after ALttP
b] after AoL
c] before AoL's backstory (where the complete Triforce was used by a King of Hyrule)

Now, which placement of Oracles do you think is the correct one?

Edited by Jumbie, 04 July 2006 - 06:41 PM.

[Fyxe]

I believe the best connection is after ALttP and LA. This is partly due to the graphical style more than anything, but also due to the placement of the Master Sword (in 'the Lost Woods') and the fact that ALttP was the most recent game where the Triforce is whole, so it makes sense not to confuse the newer fans by placing it after a game as old as AoL.

And also, there's a Hyrule Castle shown repeatedly, which we never see existing in TLoZ or AoL.

[SOAP]

The North Castle looks eerily simmilar to Hyrule castle and seems to be the main castle. Of course I know better to say it's the same castle from OoT or ALttP, but it may be modeled after them and if it is, then maybe the castle you see in Oracles is the North Palace. I agree with Fyxe about the graphical simmilarities and AoL being a rather old game. But I think it can work just as well after AoL. I SO want to do an order LoZ>AoL>OoX>IW>ALttP. But apparently I'm alone in this.

[Doopliss]

If the split takes place before Link fisr pulled the Master Sword, then there is no reason for Link to have the Triforce crest in his hand. Wouldn't both Hyrules be exactly the same until someone changed something? I think I found a purely racionalist argument against your theory!

Right Showsni, I shall simply ignore that breaker of rules from now on.
Let's continue with what Arturo picked back up, the order of the other games besides OoT.

Order of release:
1. The Legend of Zelda ~ Timeline back then: LoZ
2. The Adventure of Link ~ Timeline b.t.: LoZ > AoL
3. A Link to the Past ~ T.b.t.: ALttP > LoZ > AoL
4. Link's Awakening ~ T.b.t.: ALttP > LA > LoZ > AoL
5. Ocarina of Time ~ T.b.t.: OoT > ALttP > LA > LoZ > AoL
6. Majora's Mask ~ T.b.t.: OoT > MM > ALttP > LA > LoZ > AoL

I hope everyone will agree with this order so far.

Then came Oracle of Ages/Seasons, and the different possibilites started. In the beginning of OoX, the Triforce is united, so these games can only take place after a game where the Triforce was united in the ending:
a] after ALttP
b] after AoL
c] before AoL's backstory (where the complete Triforce was used by a King of Hyrule)

Now, which placement of Oracles do you think is the correct one?

That order is ok, however it is difficult to place a game where Hyrule appears after TWW. I place the Oracles after ALttP.

Manifestation pacifique en raison du Pie Forum. Jour 2. VI

Edited by Doopliss, 04 July 2006 - 11:54 PM.

[SOAP]

Personally, it's not so muvh taht I find it hard for Hyrule to appaear again after TWW. It's fitting TWW between the IW and ALttP taht I find troublesome. Even we pretend that history got obscured like ALttP's into seems to infer, they at laest have some recollection of Ganon getting sealed presumably in OoT yet no mention of a great flood and how Hyrule was restored which would have been more recent. Either OoT is not the IW or ALttP comes between OoT and TWW somehow. But OoT/IW>TWW>ALTTP, I just don't buy.

[mohammedali]

If the split takes place before Link fisr pulled the Master Sword, then there is no reason for Link to have the Triforce crest in his hand. Wouldn't both Hyrules be exactly the same until someone changed something? I think I found a purely racionalist argument against your theory!

I'm still not decided on what point I thinik Link was sent back, but in terms of Link coming back before touching the Triforce, there are still a couple of reasons why he still has the Triforce crest on his hand. One is to recognise that even in WW both Tetra and Ganon still had the Triforce crest on their hand even though the king had the whole Triforce. This could suggest that either the Triforce mark sometimes takes a little time to fade from their previous owners, or that these glowing crests are about those who are worthy of the piece. In any case, WW shows that we can't automatically dismiss the possibility that Link came back earlier than the given time just because of the symbol. Having said that, I still haven't decided on what theory I backed as yet - I'm just pointing out a couple of points on the topic.

Mohammed Ali

[SOAP]

I think we should have a second topic to further develope a split timeline while we continue working on a single timeline here. We shouldn't rule out either possibility but we can't pin them against each other until both have most of their kinks worked out.

[Arturo]

Right Showsni, I shall simply ignore that breaker of rules from now on.
Let's continue with what Arturo picked back up, the order of the other games besides OoT.

Order of release:
1. The Legend of Zelda ~ Timeline back then: LoZ
2. The Adventure of Link ~ Timeline b.t.: LoZ > AoL
3. A Link to the Past ~ T.b.t.: ALttP > LoZ > AoL
4. Link's Awakening ~ T.b.t.: ALttP > LA > LoZ > AoL
5. Ocarina of Time ~ T.b.t.: OoT > ALttP > LA > LoZ > AoL
6. Majora's Mask ~ T.b.t.: OoT > MM > ALttP > LA > LoZ > AoL

I hope everyone will agree with this order so far.

Then came Oracle of Ages/Seasons, and the different possibilites started. In the beginning of OoX, the Triforce is united, so these games can only take place after a game where the Triforce was united in the ending:
a] after ALttP
b] after AoL
c] before AoL's backstory (where the complete Triforce was used by a King of Hyrule)

Now, which placement of Oracles do you think is the correct one?

I think it must be after ALttP, but just for storytelling reasons: I see AoL as the happy ending of the Child Timeline. The only problem is that the evidence I have found tends to contradict my "gut feeling": Link has the mark of the Triforce, that is suppossed to be that of the Hero (this just happens in AoL) and also, there's Impa, who isn't found until LoZ and AoL. But I still think of ALttP.

EDIT:

Read was Artuno said, too

Listen to my words of wisdom, for thee.... My name is Arturo, though you can call me Arthur

Edited by Arturo, 05 July 2006 - 06:18 AM.

[Jumbie]

Fyxe:
I believe the best connection is after ALttP and LA.

But what about Link's Awakening. Could you tell me your view on Link sailing away on a ship in the ending of Oracles, and sailing on the very same ship in the beginning of LA? They used the same sprite for the boat, and LA's manual story needn't hint at ALttP necessarily. It says Link killed Ganon before he embarked, which is perfectly true for OoX. Further it says that Link fulfilled the prophecy of the hero, which I think is also mentioned in OoX by Impa at some point. So, I don't see why LA cannot happen after OoX.

SOAP:
The North Castle looks eerily simmilar to Hyrule castle and seems to be the main castle.

You've got a point there, I also noticed that it resembles TWW's Hyrule Castle.

SOAP:
I think we should have a second topic to further develope a split timeline while we continue working on a single timeline here. We shouldn't rule out either possibility but we can't pin them against each other until both have most of their kinks worked out.

Alright, would be fine. So the split timeliners can switch over there

[Arturo]

And just because one mark glows doesn't mean the other one glows at exactly the same time, why aren't you guys considering that?

The Triforce parts tend to resonate together. Your theory is also quite possible, but assuming Zelda doesn't have the ToW fits better with ALttP, where Ganon has the whole Triforce. Then Link is separated from the ToC because he goes to Termina, the ToC goes to Ganon and voila! You got a Ganon with the entire Triforce

[Fyxe]

But what about Link's Awakening. Could you tell me your view on Link sailing away on a ship in the ending of Oracles, and sailing on the very same ship in the beginning of LA?

It's not the very same ship. At all.

They used the same sprite for the boat,

No they didn't.

and LA's manual story needn't hint at ALttP necessarily.

Of course it did.

It says Link killed Ganon before he embarked, which is perfectly true for OoX. Further it says that Link fulfilled the prophecy of the hero, which I think is also mentioned in OoX by Impa at some point. So, I don't see why LA cannot happen after OoX.

Because they hadn't made the Oracle games before LA, but they had made ALttP and it fits perfectly after ALttP. Plus the Japanese LA website says it's after ALttP, and the manual does all but say exactly where it was placed.

The North Castle looks eerily simmilar to Hyrule castle and seems to be the main castle.

It does? When you look at it on the map screen it looks barely anything like Hyrule Castle, and inside is just pillars and Zelda.

[Arturo]

It does? When you look at it on the map screen it looks barely anything like Hyrule Castle, and inside is just pillars and Zelda.

It does, have you looked at the official art scene where Link shows Impa the Triforce mark?
On the window the North Castle appears, and it´s simmillar to the OoT one.

Lokk: http://gallery.zelda...?album=23&pos=6

[SOAP]

Damn. Arturo beat me too it.

Obviously I'm not saying they're not SAME building. That'd be foolish, unless either they airlifted the castle from what is now the Death Mountian Area to North Hyrule or the whole world was flipped upside down. They're modeled the same. The North Castle could be considered the protype Hyrule castle, if you will.

And Jumbie, what are you talking about? I hope you don't mean hwo it looks in Melora's artwork because that's fanart. The North Castle doesn't really look like anything like the TWW castle to me.

[Hero of Slime]

Then Link is separated from the ToC because he goes to Termina, the ToC goes to Ganon and voila! You got a Ganon with the entire Triforce

Why does the triforce of courage just go to Ganon? That does not fit with anything the Triforce is known to do.

[Tri-Enforcer]

(Arturo) Can you explain why the Golden Goddesses created Hyrule? Can you explain why the Triforce splits in three when a person with an unbalanced mind touches it? Can you explain why the Masks in MM transformed Link? Can you explain why making a wish Link just can open the gates to the Dessert Dungeon? You can't, because those are given facts. You have to accept them by faith. In the OoT ending Link has the ToC but Zelda doesn't have the ToW. Who has it? Surely Ganondorf, because the Triforce tends to combine into one. Why? That's something unexplainable. As is everything that happens in Zelda. If you are given a few facts you have to accept them, unless they contradict each other (then you have to ponder which ones are more important). Not accepting given facts is fanficcish.

While you’re coming here telling me about facts, here’s a fact for you: When the Triforce is split by someone with an unbalanced heart, the other parts go to those destined for the respective pieces. Zelda states this. If Link were sent back to a point after the the Triforce were split, then according to the ‘law’ stated by Zelda herself and not Arturo, Zelda should have the ToW at the end of OOT—not Ganon. However, I don’t believe she has the ToW since her mark is not resonating like Link’s. Which is only part of the reason why I believe Link is sent back prior to his first meeting with Zelda.

(Arturo) In the OoT ending Link has the ToC but Zelda doesn't have the ToW. Who has it? Surely Ganondorf, because the Triforce tends to combine into one. Why? That's something unexplainable.

And please tell me what fact supports the notion that Ganondorf has the ToW also at the end of OOT? I can understand if the marks do not always glow when you’re actually playing, that’s a design issue with keeping up with the frames. However, when one character’s mark is glowing—then all their marks glow—in cut scenes that is. The only exception to this is the ending in OOT. However , I have already given my reasons as to why that is.

(Jumbie) Yes, I've made the experience that most people end up accepting something they first didn't believe, if only enough people help them realize it. That process is called "learning", if I remember.

I’ve already been down that road. I’ve had all sorts of theories and and so have others, and we do learn indeed—which is part of the reason we may accept the theories of others or find something else. However, this is my latest theory and I’m just trying to find answers myself to what works and what doesn’t.

(Jumbie) There is no explanation to that Triforce thing, so just use your eyes and realize that Link carries the ToC but Zelda does not carry the ToW. Your eyes, not your brain - only this one time.

That may work for you, but not for me. You can conveniently disregard the lack of the Goron bracelet and Zelda’s mark as much as you want.

Also, sorry for telling you to shut up. I could of said that better. Basically, I wanted to say that you should elaborate on your idea or don't present it at all. Don't just state something and make it the end-all-be-all and nothing more. Like you said we're here to learn and you telling me not to think about why Zelda doesn't have the ToW at the end of OOT does not constitute learning. If you do not know the answer or willing to suggest one, then don't act if I shouldn't try to figure it out. That's basically what I should of said instead of telling you to shut up, so once again I do humbly apologize. I guess at the time I wrote that comment, I took it as if you were telling me to drop an improtant issue about the storyline, when that is not what the whole storyline forum is all about--I'm like, 'he's got some nerve'. I'd be bogus if I told you to not figure out any issue that you may have with the storyline, simply because I didn't know, or I was not willing to figure it out. If I'm not willing to offer a suggestion, then I'm not going to try and rebutt your idea

(Fyxe) She wouldn't tell him to put the Master Sword BACK if he was about to remove it.

What are you talking about, I didn’t say that Link is about to remove the MS when sent back—what sense does that make? I’m just saying that Link goes back and that he knows not to pull the MS--that’s all. Doing this honors part of Zelda’s request.

(Fyxe) And just because one mark glows doesn't mean the other one glows at exactly the same time, why aren't you guys considering that?

That’s because I’ve never seen a cutscene where that one mark glows, whilst the other who has a Triforce does not glow. I understand that sometimes the marks don’t appear on anyone, even when their next to each other, however, there has not been a scene where that only one mark glows and the others do not.

(Fyxe) Why? Why would it suddenly mean something else?

Why would the mark suddenly glow on one person and not the other? Like I said before, there’s not any other scene in which one mark resonates and the others do not. Yes, there are scenes that the mark doesn’t show at all on anyone when they’re together. However, if there is at least one mark glowing, then it’s glowing on the others as well when they’re together.

(Fyxe) Also, Zelda's expression is the standard 'surprised' expression, you can't infer anything more than that. Read was Artuno said, too.

If Link is sent back to a point after the Triforce is split—which is after Ganon attacked the castle—then why would Zelda go back to the castle not knowing Ganon’s status? What’s your opinion on that? Also what do you think happened to the Ganon of the past, since I noticed you don’t agree with the transcending seal theory (which I don’t blame you)?

Edited by Tri-Enforcer, 05 July 2006 - 03:45 PM.

[Jumbie]

Hey Fyxe, is that the latest fashion - just saying "No it isn't, no they didn't, no no no" without reasoning?

Fyxe:
It's not the very same ship. At all.

Yes it is Even a blind man can see that. While the sprite may be entirely black in LA but detailed in OoX, the silhouette of the sprite is identic, except for the taken-in sail. But the sail is logically taken in during a storm, isn't it? If you don't believe me, go check it here:
LA's ship
OoX's ship
Your arguing about LA's placement is just as poor as that of everyone who tries to disprove OoT being the Seal War. You take content of the official Japanese LA site as evidence? I actually think what online staff writes is not canon.

SOAP:
And Jumbie, what are you talking about? I hope you don't mean hwo it looks in Melora's artwork because that's fanart. The North Castle doesn't really look like anything like the TWW castle to me.

Yes indeed, Melora's fanart was what made me realize that not only the North Castle (on a high cliff in a wide lake) but also the whole landscape in AoL's initial overworld area look very much like Sunken Hyrule in TWW. Of course I don't take fanart as canon, but the in-game map of AoL looks just the same, only less detailed than the fanart.
And then, looking at AoL's official artwork, we see that the North Castle looks like a *realistic graphics* version of TWW's cel-shaded Hyrule Castle. There are at least six different official artworks showing the North Castle, and it always looks the same.

Edited by Jumbie, 05 July 2006 - 04:20 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

Why would the mark suddenly glow on one person and not the other? Like I said before, there’s not any other scene in which one mark resonates and the others do not. Yes, there are scenes that the mark doesn’t show at all on anyone when they’re together. However, if there is at least one mark glowing, then it’s glowing on the others as well when they’re together.

Hm... Ignoring the ending of OoT, this what I have come up with.

OoT - When Zelda reveals herself to Link - Only Zelda's mark is seen.
OoT - When Ganondorf burst forth from the ruins of his Tower - Only Ganondorf's mark is seen.
TWW - Inside Ganondorf's "bedroom" - Only Ganondorf's mark is seen.
TWW - On top of Ganon's Tower - Only Ganondorf and Zelda's marks are seen (Exluding one scene).

Never say "never", eh?

[Tri-Enforcer]

Regardless of that, we have TP, to help support the idea that the mark can appear on anyone who is destined for it. Although it's not out yet, we do know the 1st area is Toaru village. Link in that game has the mark already! Also this game takes place in between OOT and TWW. Also, it seems that when the mark appears is rather random and inconsistant at most. So it's really hard to draw any storyline conclusions from it.

[Fyxe]

If Link is sent back to a point after the Triforce is split—which is after Ganon attacked the castle—then why would Zelda go back to the castle not knowing Ganon’s status? What’s your opinion on that? Also what do you think happened to the Ganon of the past, since I noticed you don’t agree with the transcending seal theory (which I don’t blame you)?

This is a moment where the backstory of ALttP might help. When it talks about Ganon's attack on Hyrule, this did not happen imediately. We don't know exactly how long Ganon spent building his power in the Sacred Realm. Would Zelda spend months away from the castle if nothing happens for months? I don't think she would. There would be panic among the people, and it's not like the castle is a particularly unsafe place anyway. It IS a castle, after all.

As for Ganon in the past, I think he's in the Sacred Realm building his power, and life goes on for a long while with nothing happening. Nobody else can enter the Sacred Realm because nobody can draw the sword, but Ganon can and will get out eventually.

Or, if there's a split, some... Other stuff happens. I'm not sure.

Hey Fyxe, is that the latest fashion - just saying "No it isn't, no they didn't, no no no" without reasoning?

No.

Yes it is Even a blind man can see that. While the sprite may be entirely black in LA but detailed in OoX, the silhouette of the sprite is identic, except for the taken-in sail. But the sail is logically taken in during a storm, isn't it? If you don't believe me, go check it here:
LA's ship
OoX's ship

I believe the scale is different. When you see Link on the mast in LA... The ship is much larger than the one in the Oracle games.

Your arguing about LA's placement is just as poor as that of everyone who tries to disprove OoT being the Seal War. You take content of the official Japanese LA site as evidence? I actually think what online staff writes is not canon.

You say that, but the Japanese Nintendo sites rarely if ever make any mistakes, instead often offering extra canon information, such as the Metroid Zero Mission online comics. They are also often written by the designers themselves, such as the Smash Bros. websites. A mistake on the LA page would have been checked.

And besides, that wasn't my only piece of evidence. I'm going on the logic of it's release. It was a sequel to ALttP. That's just a fact.

If you want more evidence, the final Nightmare takes on the form of Ganon and Agahnim as they appeared in ALttP, clearly drawing off Link's previous encounters. Also, Marin looks like Zelda from ALttP, and Link is depicted in *exactly* the same way.

Hey, you're the one basing your ideas on fanart. ¬.¬

[Hero of Legend]

Regardless of that, we have TP, to help support the idea that the mark can appear on anyone who is destined for it. Although it's not out yet, we do know the 1st area is Toaru village. Link in that game has the mark already! Also this game takes place in between OOT and TWW.

Well, the mark in TP is still the "other" kind of Triforce mark (The one from AoL/Oracles) and Link always has that one from the beginning.

Also, it seems that when the mark appears is rather random and inconsistant at most. So it's really hard to draw any storyline conclusions from it.

You’ve got that right.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 05 July 2006 - 06:30 PM.

[Tri-Enforcer]

This is a moment where the backstory of ALttP might help. When it talks about Ganon's attack on Hyrule, this did not happen imediately. We don't know exactly how long Ganon spent building his power in the Sacred Realm. Would Zelda spend months away from the castle if nothing happens for months? I don't think she would. There would be panic among the people, and it's not like the castle is a particularly unsafe place anyway. It IS a castle, after all.

Well, to me it takes Link only a few days to travel back and forth across time to finally defeat Ganon in the future. So it probably wouldn't be wise for Zelda to return to the castle before Link returns from the past to trap Ganon (going by your theory). Yes, the castle is supposed to be safe, but why is Impa and Zelda running away from it to begin with? If it was so safe, then the castle guard or whoever would've protected them then and if they couldn't protect Zelda then, then they probably won't be able to later. So the best thing for Zelda at the least is to stay hiding.

Then you have to consider that the Triforce split on Ganon while he was inside the Sacred Realm. I'm sure either Ganon, or his minions, would be out looking for the other two pieces that bounced on him. Zelda, who knows the nature of the Triforce, she'd keep the ToW a secret and keep it from Ganon as much as possible. So going back to the castle while having the ToW, would not be a good idea as the castle itself has shown to be rather unsafe.

As for Ganon in the past, I think he's in the Sacred Realm building his power, and life goes on for a long while with nothing happening. Nobody else can enter the Sacred Realm because nobody can draw the sword, but Ganon can and will get out eventually.

Well considering this is supposed to set up LttP, how does Ganon get the rest of the Triforce parts, since the parts will still be split even after Link traps Ganon in the Sacred Realm?

(Hero of Legend) Well, the mark in TP is still the "other" kind of Triforce mark (The one from AoL/Oracles) and Link always has that one from the beginning.

Well the mark we see on TP Link looks the same as the crests in OOT and TWW, except that all three pieces are shaded. The marks in AoL are all golden shining color.

You’ve got that right.

There needs to be more clarification on the behavior of the marks--their just as mysterious as the Triforce itself!

[Doopliss]

Tri-Enforcer, if Link is sent before he ever pulled the Master Sword, why would the final scene be different from when Link met Zelda for the first time? We does Link have the crest while he doesn't have it when he meets Zelda for the first time? Why does Zelda turn before Link gets where she is? In addition. there would be two Links existing at the same time, and you need to prove why Link would travel with his body and 'unage'.

Manifestation pacifique en raison du Pie Forum. Jour 3. VII

Edited by Doopliss, 05 July 2006 - 10:20 PM.

[Tri-Enforcer]

mistake sorry

Edited by Tri-Enforcer, 06 July 2006 - 04:03 AM.

[SOAP]

Conservation of matter and energy Dooplis.

I don't see any differences in the two courtyard scenes other than it seems to be at a different camear angle, perhaps to better show Link's crest. I don't think it's a simmilar scene taking place after Link pulled out the Master Sword because if that were the case and Ganon was up building his strength in the Sacred Realm, Zelda would not be in the courtyard. If she had returned to the castle, she'd be heavily guarded. Then again, I doubt Zelda would return to the castle in the first place, no matter how peaceful things looked. She's be hiding with Impa and becoming Sheik.

Edited by SOAP, 06 July 2006 - 02:23 AM.

[Arturo]

Why does the triforce of courage just go to Ganon? That does not fit with anything the Triforce is known to do.

The ToC abandons Link because he goes to Termina, and therefore, he's separated from the ellements that made him a hero. And it goes to Ganon because of the tendence of the Triforce to recombine, if let alone. It fits with what we know about the Triforce. Only to give an example:
The Triforce parts are resonating...
They are combining into one again...
Ganondorf, OoT

While you’re coming here telling me about facts, here’s a fact for you: When the Triforce is split by someone with an unbalanced heart, the other parts go to those destined for the respective pieces. Zelda states this. If Link were sent back to a point after the the Triforce were split, then according to the ‘law’ stated by Zelda herself and not Arturo, Zelda should have the ToW at the end of OOT—not Ganon. However, I don’t believe she has the ToW since her mark is not resonating like Link’s. Which is only part of the reason why I believe Link is sent back prior to his first meeting with Zelda.
And please tell me what fact supports the notion that Ganondorf has the ToW also at the end of OOT? I can understand if the marks do not always glow when you’re actually playing, that’s a design issue with keeping up with the frames. However, when one character’s mark is glowing—then all their marks glow—in cut scenes that is. The only exception to this is the ending in OOT. However , I have already given my reasons as to why that is.
I’ve already been down that road. I’ve had all sorts of theories and and so have others, and we do learn indeed—which is part of the reason we may accept the theories of others or find something else. However, this is my latest theory and I’m just trying to find answers myself to what works and what doesn’t.
That may work for you, but not for me. You can conveniently disregard the lack of the Goron bracelet and Zelda’s mark as much as you want.

Also, sorry for telling you to shut up. I could of said that better. Basically, I wanted to say that you should elaborate on your idea or don't present it at all. Don't just state something and make it the end-all-be-all and nothing more. Like you said we're here to learn and you telling me not to think about why Zelda doesn't have the ToW at the end of OOT does not constitute learning. If you do not know the answer or willing to suggest one, then don't act if I shouldn't try to figure it out. That's basically what I should of said instead of telling you to shut up, so once again I do humbly apologize. I guess at the time I wrote that comment, I took it as if you were telling me to drop an improtant issue about the storyline, when that is not what the whole storyline forum is all about--I'm like, 'he's got some nerve'. I'd be bogus if I told you to not figure out any issue that you may have with the storyline, simply because I didn't know, or I was not willing to figure it out. If I'm not willing to offer a suggestion, then I'm not going to try and rebutt your idea
What are you talking about, I didn’t say that Link is about to remove the MS when sent back—what sense does that make? I’m just saying that Link goes back and that he knows not to pull the MS--that’s all. Doing this honors part of Zelda’s request.
That’s because I’ve never seen a cutscene where that one mark glows, whilst the other who has a Triforce does not glow. I understand that sometimes the marks don’t appear on anyone, even when their next to each other, however, there has not been a scene where that only one mark glows and the others do not.
Why would the mark suddenly glow on one person and not the other? Like I said before, there’s not any other scene in which one mark resonates and the others do not. Yes, there are scenes that the mark doesn’t show at all on anyone when they’re together. However, if there is at least one mark glowing, then it’s glowing on the others as well when they’re together.



If Link is sent back to a point after the Triforce is split—which is after Ganon attacked the castle—then why would Zelda go back to the castle not knowing Ganon’s status? What’s your opinion on that? Also what do you think happened to the Ganon of the past, since I noticed you don’t agree with the transcending seal theory (which I don’t blame you)?

I'm not the Seventh Sage, as Zelda is. However, I'm a good observer, and the Triforce pieces needn't resonate together. Example: when Sheik transforms himself into Zelda, just Zelda's Triorce resonates, not Link's. And in the ending it's explicitly stated that he's sent after he pulled the MS: he has to return the MS (returning is not the same as not getting), close the Door of Time, that according to you, should not be open, but it is, in order to close the road between time(line)s. And Zelda sould have the Triforce, by normal logic. But time travel certainly breaks these rules, and because of this time paradoxes maybe the ToW remains with Ganon. Because if Zelda doesn't have it, someone else must. And this person is Ganondorf. And if you're speaking about Jumbie, I think he believes the Seal trascending time.

Hey Fyxe, is that the latest fashion - just saying "No it isn't, no they didn't, no no no" without reasoning?
Yes it is Even a blind man can see that. While the sprite may be entirely black in LA but detailed in OoX, the silhouette of the sprite is identic, except for the taken-in sail. But the sail is logically taken in during a storm, isn't it? If you don't believe me, go check it here:
LA's ship
OoX's ship
Your arguing about LA's placement is just as poor as that of everyone who tries to disprove OoT being the Seal War. You take content of the official Japanese LA site as evidence? I actually think what online staff writes is not canon.
Yes indeed, Melora's fanart was what made me realize that not only the North Castle (on a high cliff in a wide lake) but also the whole landscape in AoL's initial overworld area look very much like Sunken Hyrule in TWW. Of course I don't take fanart as canon, but the in-game map of AoL looks just the same, only less detailed than the fanart.
And then, looking at AoL's official artwork, we see that the North Castle looks like a *realistic graphics* version of TWW's cel-shaded Hyrule Castle. There are at least six different official artworks showing the North Castle, and it always looks the same.

I have just noticed a proof fopr being ALttP Link the same as LA Link. In OoX Link has the Triforce mark, while in LA he doesn't.

Regardless of that, we have TP, to help support the idea that the mark can appear on anyone who is destined for it. Although it's not out yet, we do know the 1st area is Toaru village. Link in that game has the mark already! Also this game takes place in between OOT and TWW. Also, it seems that when the mark appears is rather random and inconsistant at most. So it's really hard to draw any storyline conclusions from it.

You cannot use as a proof a game yet to be released.

This is a moment where the backstory of ALttP might help. When it talks about Ganon's attack on Hyrule, this did not happen imediately. We don't know exactly how long Ganon spent building his power in the Sacred Realm. Would Zelda spend months away from the castle if nothing happens for months? I don't think she would. There would be panic among the people, and it's not like the castle is a particularly unsafe place anyway. It IS a castle, after all.

As for Ganon in the past, I think he's in the Sacred Realm building his power, and life goes on for a long while with nothing happening. Nobody else can enter the Sacred Realm because nobody can draw the sword, but Ganon can and will get out eventually.

Or, if there's a split, some... Other stuff happens. I'm not sure.
No.
I believe the scale is different. When you see Link on the mast in LA... The ship is much larger than the one in the Oracle games.
You say that, but the Japanese Nintendo sites rarely if ever make any mistakes, instead often offering extra canon information, such as the Metroid Zero Mission online comics. They are also often written by the designers themselves, such as the Smash Bros. websites. A mistake on the LA page would have been checked.

And besides, that wasn't my only piece of evidence. I'm going on the logic of it's release. It was a sequel to ALttP. That's just a fact.

If you want more evidence, the final Nightmare takes on the form of Ganon and Agahnim as they appeared in ALttP, clearly drawing off Link's previous encounters. Also, Marin looks like Zelda from ALttP, and Link is depicted in *exactly* the same way.

Hey, you're the one basing your ideas on fanart. ¬.¬

That's basically my idea. The difference is that while Ganon builds his power in the SR, the evil starts invading Hyrule from the temples: "His evil power radiated from the temples of Hyrule" Rauru OoT. In teh Adult Timeline he goes out of the SR finally, while in the Child one, he never goes out, because he's sealed (as said by one of the Maidens in ALttP)

Conservation of matter and energy Dooplis.

I don't see any differences in the two courtyard scenes other than it seems to be at a different camear angle, perhaps to better show Link's crest. I don't think it's a simmilar scene taking place after Link pulled out the Master Sword because if that were the case and Ganon was up building his strength in the Sacred Realm, Zelda would not be in the courtyard. If she had returned to the castle, she'd be heavily guarded. Then again, I doubt Zelda would return to the castle in the first place, no matter how peaceful things looked. She's be hiding with Impa and becoming Sheik.

Unless Ganon is already sealed. The only theory that fits perfectly with what we see in the ending is the Sages' Seal trascending timelines. And there are certainly differences.

[Tri-Enforcer]

(Dooplis) Tri-Enforcer, if Link is sent before he ever pulled the Master Sword, why would the final scene be different from when Link met Zelda for the first time? We does Link have the crest while he doesn't have it when he meets Zelda for the first time? Why does Zelda turn before Link gets where she is? In addition. there would be two Links existing at the same time, and you need to prove why Link would travel with his body and 'unage'

Dooplis, it's not that I feel the scenes are exactly the same, since the two scenes are really not. Just because I say you go back in the past to a certain point doesn't mean things have to happen exactly the same way. In the final scene, this time around, Link instead stops before he gets close to Zelda. Maybe it's because he's in awe that he's meeting her AGAIN for the first time. You ever see someone that you're glad to see and instead of you saying anything you just stare at that person briefly, or have you ever seen a movie or some sort of love story in which a moment like this happens? Why does Zelda turn around...? well if you're alone sometimes you tend to look behind yourself (especially if you're snooping around) or sometimes one may get a feeling like, 'I'm not alone.' Also, as I've pointed out earlier and what SOAP just touched on, if you consider the final scene to take place after Ganon attacked, it wouldn't be a good idea for Zelda to return to the castle, not knowing Ganon's status.

The crest? Why not in the first meeting, but now this time around? Like I said before the mark could very well be a symbol that Link either once possessed the ToC to accomplish his tasks across time, and that he's worthy of the ToC. In AoL and Oracles, Link has the mark even though he does not have the Triforce in the beginning of those games, also the same can be said of TP if notice official art work and screenshots of Link early on in that upcoming game. Many may argue that crest in AoL is different from the ones in OOT and TWW, but I just think it's just a difference in art. Obviously you can't see the mark on AoL's eight-bit sprite, but the mark is shown in artwork from the manual. I think when OOT came along Nintendo just gave it a fresher look. I should note that, I'm starting to linger away from using the marks as a way help determine the storyline, as the use of the marks in Zelda games and official art are very inconsitant.

As for two Links? Rauru and Zelda explained to Link that his 'spirit' was stored away in the Sacred Realm for seven years. This is stated in the game, mind you. So I believe that when Link travels through time--it is his spirit that's traveling back and forth--not his body. This totally eliminates the idea of a physical double.

(Arturo) The ToC abandons Link because he goes to Termina, and therefore, he's separated from the ellements that made him a hero. And it goes to Ganon because of the tendence of the Triforce to recombine, if let alone. It fits with what we know about the Triforce. Only to give an example:
The Triforce parts are resonating...
They are combining into one again...
Ganondorf, OoT

I think that only applies when they're close together. In TWW, the King explained that when the Hero of Time went away from the elements that made him legend, the ToC was shattered and hidden--it didn't go to Ganon.... I mean we all only had to recollect ToC pieces ourselves in TWW, duh.

As for the ToC on the other timeline--if there is one? Who's to say that it doesn't do the same their.

Edited by Tri-Enforcer, 06 July 2006 - 05:00 AM.

[Alastair]

The ToC abandons Link because he goes to Termina, and therefore, he's separated from the ellements that made him a hero. And it goes to Ganon because of the tendence of the Triforce to recombine, if let alone.

Do we know that the Triforce tends to combine ?
Many games focus on Link trying to force the Triforce/pieces of the Triforce to combine. Off the top of my head I cannot think of an example where two pieces of the Triforce have combined together of their own accord. No doubt someone will prove me wrong.

And Zelda sould have the Triforce, by normal logic. But time travel certainly breaks these rules, and because of this time paradoxes maybe the ToW remains with Ganon. Because if Zelda doesn't have it, someone else must. And this person is Ganondorf.

Zelda not having the ToW does not in any way imply that Ganondorf does, though he may do.

Throughout this thread an inability to disprove a theory has been cited as proof that it is correct (apologies Arturo as it is not just you). I cannot prove that the Easter Bunny does not exist, but you would have a hard time convincing me that he does.