502 replies to this topic

[Nevermind]

No, they wouldn't, because people think for themselves, and some people will believe things that others will not. But they are under the same conditions. They are all given history, information, and the world in front of them. Each person makes of it what they will, and each person will consider their way to be the right way.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

No, they wouldn't, because people think for themselves, and some people will believe things that others will not. But they are under the same conditions. They are all given history, information, and the world in front of them. Each person makes of it what they will, and each person will consider their way to be the right way.

They clearly aren't in the same conditions.

Poor people, for example, in the inner cities are less likely to believe than more well off people in the suburbs. Why is that? Dunno. All I know is that it clearly has something to do with the conditions they live under, which are different from that of the people in the suburbs.

Granted, the way they think will compound to that difference, but it does not change the fact that the conditions they live under are also to blame.

[Hero of Legend]

Make your own damn reason. Do your own research. Find out YOURSELF why you should or should not believe. I am not here to do your work for you.

Not you, perhaps, but many parents do just that.

There is no denying that the majority of the world's Christians were born and brought up in Christian homes, were they were taught by their parents that belief in the Christian god is the only truth and the only way to salvation, as well as a good life in general (Good luck trying to convert and not make your family hate you). You can compare it to a child's belief in Santa Clause. The only difference is that no-one ever reveals that God isn't real. Now, was it the child's "choice" to believe in Santa before he found out the truth? No, it did what its parents told it to do. Again, same with God.

(Of course, this is also true for other religions, as well as atheism, and other philosophical, moral, and political standards. Still, you can't deny that very few people actually have a choice in the matter of what their core beliefs are.)

But why did the kid accept Santa and God, both literally out of this world? It is the human nature: We are open to ideas when we are young and when we are introduced to something new. However, once we have formed an opinion it is VERY hard to change it. Often it either takes some life-altering event to change a man’s ideal if he is convinced he is right.

But you know, there's no real evidence to prove that it's not true.

You can't prove that something does not exist (God and otherwise). However, that does not mean it DOES exist. For example, if I say you have an invisible hat on your head - You can't see it, feel it, or touch it, but it is there. Do you believe me? No, because you have no reason to do so. No evidence.

So does it exist? No, by all accounts it does not exist.

The same thing could be said about God. Yet people believe in him. Why? Because they have a reason to. Maybe they were raced that way, maybe they have a spiritual belief, maybe they simply like Christianity and what it stands for. But in most cases it comes down to insecure individuals and their inability to come to terms with the fact that they will die, and there is nothing they can do about it. Without belief in God, there is no after-life, whether Heaven or Hell. That is the main reason people were willing to accept religion as part of their life in the first place.

As for this "Accept God or go to Hell" thing, well, I think it's somewhat unfair considering the fact that about 2/3 of the Earth's population does not believe in the Christian God, and I'd estimate that about 1/4 will never hear about him during the course of their life.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 30 June 2006 - 07:29 AM.

[Oberon Storm]

However, one thing that does not sit with me is people saying that things like "there isn't enough proof", "I haven't been shown enough", all that sort of stuff. [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of people are able to accept it and believe it with the proof, or lack of proof, that is already in circulation. So I really don't see why those who say there is not enough should get let off the hook, and I really don't know why they believe that IF there is a God, He should let them off easy, because of that excuse, even though others willingly accept what they have been given.

To me, at leats, the proof you have accepted is not good enough. It is almost like someone told me these fun facts without any evidence at all, just an old book passed down through the centuries, and ask me to just smile, nod, and accept it. I can't do that. It isn't a real choice. To me, and forgive me if I offend anyone, it is a weak mind that would so readily take this stuff and just accept it. From my point of view religion is just a crutch for people that cannot even think that this may be all there is. After this there is nothing. And still others, it seems, have simply taken advantage of that and devised a way to control people.

My mind does not work that way. I need to be shown more than a millenia old collection of short stories. Give me something concrete. Something tangible. Or else any faith from me would be blind. I just can't entrust any soul I might have to any other being, God or otherwise, that easily. So really, if there is a God out there, I openly defy him to send me to any kind of hell for simply not believeing in his ass.

Edited by Chief Fire Storm, 30 June 2006 - 08:20 AM.

[Nevermind]

Wolf, people in bad situations still have the human potential to better themselves. They also still have that ability to make a choice for themselves as to whether or not they think there is a god. Doesn't matter what your scenario is. I mean, one person might think there isn't one cos their life sucks. The person next to them could be thinking that this is God's way of making them stronger. I dunno, I'm not them. Now, that said, bettering themselves may not exactly be too easy nowadays. Not because of their life, but because, if they are unable to get themselves out, no one else gives a rat's ass enough to help them get out. So they're fucked. I dunno what I'm supposed to do about it. I don't even know if I COULD do anything about it.



And Mr Hero, I know that not proving something doesn't exist doesn't mean it DOES exist. But it's enough for me to grant it the potential to exist. As for the hat. If I truly believe I have an invisible hat on my head - if I am totally convinced - does it not exist? Or does it just not exist to those that don't believe I have one on my head. Because what happens if other people believe I have one? To them, does it exist?

Without belief in God, there is no after-life, whether Heaven or Hell. That is the main reason people were willing to accept religion as part of their life in the first place.

Or...maybe they actually believed it to be true...

And people not hearing about it? Well, they can't reject what they do not know exists. As I said earlier, I believe God weighs the heart, but does not put up with rejection.



And finally, CFS, I gotta commend you for being strong-minded enough to make a choice and stick with it, no matter what the outcome. Y'all should take this as an example. You choose what you believe, and you take whatever consequences or benefits come of it. You don't look for a disability pension.

[Fyxe]

And finally, CFS, I gotta commend you for being strong-minded enough to make a choice and stick with it, no matter what the outcome. Y'all should take this as an example. You choose what you believe, and you take whatever consequences or benefits come of it. You don't look for a disability pension.

You know what, I agree with CFS's standpoint, but you are completely misinterpreting it. You're wrong about what it is. He's NOT making a choice and sticking with it no matter what the outcome, because that is as bad as blind faith. His mind is clearly a questioning mind. He has looked at the arguements behind Christianity and made up his own mind, but that isn't the only question in the world, is it? It doesn't give him a *reason* why existence exists. Presumably he still keeps his mind open for other answers, and is critical and careful about any idea that people put forth.

It's NOT a good example to believe something constantly and blindly without swaying. That is not sensible. People make mistakes. Humans are wrong. I put forth all kinds of opinionated sayings and arguements yet I know that I may be wrong and that I may change my mind. There is nothing FLAWED with changing your mind, in fact I'd say there's something deeply flawed with an unwavering and unstoppable conviction, especially to something that you, quite frankly, do not know the actual answer to.

And people not hearing about it? Well, they can't reject what they do not know exists. As I said earlier, I believe God weighs the heart, but does not put up with rejection.

I've heard the message but I still don't know it exists, do I? I don't KNOW. In the same respects, I am exactly like those people who haven't heard about it. How can I reject something that I don't know exists?

Do you consider that maybe you've heard something special that has made you believe that the rest of us haven't? Some secret message? Or maybe you had the sort of mind that WANTED to believe no matter what the message said exactly. Does that make you more suited for salvation?

What if it turned out that Scientology was actually the true religion or something nuts like that? I'm sure you've heard about it, so you can't argue that you haven't heard the message, yet presumably (since you're sane) you don't believe in it. Then it turns out it's right. You are denied salvation because you did not believe in it.

A fair chunk of people believe in it, so you can't say it's not fair. Yet would you really sit back and think 'fair dos'? That you were punished for not being basically brainwashed into believing it?

[Nevermind]

Ok, I'm not gonna argue over split hairs. I know you know what I meant by those statements.

[Korhend]

Humans will always engage in mass slaughter, in the name of God or not.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean its not bad >_>

[Oberon Storm]

You know what, I agree with CFS's standpoint, but you are completely misinterpreting it.

No. He got it. If I really don't accept His authority and refuse to go to hell then I miss out on paradise by default. But like I said earlier, if the rules are the way they are then I can't say the idea of heaven excites me much.

[Hero of Legend]

And Mr Hero, I know that not proving something doesn't exist doesn't mean it DOES exist. But it's enough for me to grant it the potential to exist.

But on what basis? You believe because you want to believe? Because it makes your life (and death) easier? That's the "easy way out", and quite frankly, I have little respect for those who cannot handle the truth, or live their life’s without a "Guardian Angel" (Stop saying God did *this* for you, damnit! (PS. This last sentence was not directed at anyone specifically)).

As for the hat. If I truly believe I have an invisible hat on my head - if I am totally convinced - does it not exist? Or does it just not exist to those that don't believe I have one on my head. Because what happens if other people believe I have one? To them, does it exist?

If you believe you have an invisible hat on your head, you are crazy.

Or...maybe they actually believed it to be true...

But they accepted it because they benefited from it. Didn't Jesus promise salvation to his followers? Didn't Muhammad? Didn't Buddha? That was, and is, the main benefit of following a religion. Of course, religion also provided nice (false) explanations for the natural phenomena the people saw, and still does in some cases.

No. He got it. If I really don't accept His authority and refuse to go to hell then I miss out on paradise by default. But like I said earlier, if the rules are the way they are then I can't say the idea of heaven excites me much.

I agree, in a way I'd rather take my chances with Satan. He seems like a cool guy, and the sins are what makes life worth living anyway.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 30 June 2006 - 12:01 PM.

[Reflectionist]

Did mohammad ressurect himself, like he said he would?
Was Buddha's birth, life, and death foretold?

[Korhend]

Did mohammad ressurect himself, like he said he would?
Was Buddha's birth, life, and death foretold?

How bout Jimmu, he whiped out the strongest nation ever's navy?

[TheAvengerLever]

I agree, in a way I'd rather take my chances with Satan. He seems like a cool guy, and the sins are what makes life worth living anyway.

Well, that's insane. Why follow someone who hates every inch of you instead of someone who loves you? With sin comes guilt, and with guilt comes suffering.

[Hero of Legend]

Did mohammad ressurect himself, like he said he would?

Not sure. Does it matter? My point was that all religions promise salvation for its followers. And last I checked, Jesus resurrection wasn’t exactly what you’d call fact.

Was Buddha's birth, life, and death foretold?

You mean his life as a human? Well, how could it be? Buddhism didn't exist as a religion until Buddha founded it.

Well, that's insane. Why follow someone who hates every inch of you instead of someone who loves you?

God "loves" me enough to condemn me to hell. Gee, I wonder why I don't follow him?

With sin comes guilt, and with guilt comes suffering.

That depends on who’s sinning.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 30 June 2006 - 02:01 PM.

[Reflectionist]

Not sure. Does it matter? My point was that all religions promise salvation for its followers. And last I checked, Jesus resurrection wasn’t exactly what you’d call fact.
You mean his life as a human? Well, how could it be? Buddhism didn't exist as a religion until Buddha founded it.

God "loves" me enough to condemn me to hell. Gee, I wonder why I don't follow him?
That depends on who’s sinning.

Yes, it does matter. Jesus' resurrection is fact. Thanks for playing. We don't resort to absolutes in Contro.

Christianity wasn't a religion until the dudes who were persectuing Christians said, "you're just a little christ, aren't you" that's what Christian means.

God loves you. Yeah. But he's not gonna force his company on you. It's like He's saying "I want to be your friend, because I can help you, but if you don't want my help. I won't give it to you."

[Oberon Storm]

Jesus' resurrection is fact. Thanks for playing.

No it's not. Thank you for playing.

[Alakhriveion]

Did mohammad ressurect himself, like he said he would?

When did he say that?

Was Buddha's birth, life, and death foretold?

Yes.

Yes, it does matter. Jesus' resurrection is fact. Thanks for playing. We don't resort to absolutes in Contro.

Didn't we already do this one? Also, "Jesus' resurrection is fact... We don't resort to absolutes in Contro." That one pretty much responds to itself.

Christianity wasn't a religion until the dudes who were persectuing Christians said, "you're just a little christ, aren't you" that's what Christian means.

WTF?

God loves you. Yeah. But he's not gonna force his company on you. It's like He's saying "I want to be your friend, because I can help you, but if you don't want my help. I won't give it to you."

Yeah, that IS reasonable. If you include damnation, though, it ain't.

[Hero of Legend]

Yes, it does matter. Jesus' resurrection is fact.

Uh... WTF? It doesn’t matter to the point I was making.

Furthermore, unless I am gravely mistaken, the topic we are posting in is named "Is the Bible True?" So, discussion of whether Jesus resurrected or not is very much relevant to this debate. And no, it is not a fact.

We don't resort to absolutes in Contro.

Again, WTF?

Christianity wasn't a religion until the dudes who were persectuing Christians said, "you're just a little christ, aren't you" that's what Christian means.

Okay... Anyway, the first Christians were Jews who chose to follow the teachings of their supposed savior, Jesus Christ, who's coming, as you previously said, had been foretold. In other words, nothing much changed in their religion that they didn’t already know would change. Long story short, because Judaism existed before Jesus, so did Christianity.

God loves you.

And you know this, how?

Yeah. But he's not gonna force his company on you. It's like He's saying "I want to be your friend, because I can help you, but if you don't want my help. I won't give it to you."

He (himself) could ask me if I wanted his help before commencing with the damnation, you know.

Thanks for playing.

"We don't resort to insults in Contro."

EDIT:

Yes.

Ah, yes you are right. I forgot about that one.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 30 June 2006 - 04:50 PM.

[Selena]

Christianity wasn't a religion until the dudes who were persectuing Christians said, "you're just a little christ, aren't you" that's what Christian means.

They attacked Christianity by calling them little messiahs? o.O

[Alakhriveion]

"We don't resort to insults in Contro."

1, That's not what he said, 2, leave the rule-enforcement to the proper authorities, i.e. me.

Ah, yes you are right. I forgot about that one.

No, you didn't, because it is true that Gautama Buddha was prophecized only as much as your original post is true: We see evidence of these prophecies in Buddhist texts, just as Jesus' coming is only predicted in materials written after his death.

Edited by Alakhriveion, 30 June 2006 - 05:00 PM.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

When did he say that?

No idea, but the closest thing I can find is the claim by Muslims that on the day of the apocalypse, Jesus and Mohammed will come down to Earth, kick some butts and rule over the peoples of the Earth.

Was Buddha's birth, life, and death foretold?

Yup. In fact, Buddha's life and Christ's life share a whole bucketload of similarities, with the obvious exception of being crucified. In fact, their teachings share a bucketload of similarities too, which has given rise to the concept of "Jesus was actually taken to the east by Buddhists and taught Buddhist views, which he incorporated into his teachings".

In fact, there's a tomb in India belonging to one Issa, whom is said to have come from Jerusalem and to have had scars on his feet that look suspiciously as if they were caused by nails driven through them in the fashion of crucifixion. Such "evidence" has led some people to believe that Issa = Jesus, which if it was proved unrefutably true... well, you get the idea.

I'm not sure if it's true or not, and I don't really care.

It's just something interesting, as far as I'm concerned.

[Alakhriveion]

No idea, but the closest thing I can find is the claim by Muslims that on the day of the apocalypse, Jesus and Mohammed will come down to Earth, kick some butts and rule over the peoples of the Earth.

No, Jesus and the Mahdi will do that.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

No, Jesus and the Mahdi will do that.

Really? I could have sworn Mohammed was involved.

[Hero of Legend]

1, That's not what he said, 2, leave the rule-enforcement to the proper authorities, i.e. me.

Sorry, I was just replying to an insult in what I deemed a fitting manner. I wasn't trying to mini-mod or anything. And as for the citation marks, well, I like to put them there just to make sure the satire is obvious.

No, you didn't, because it is true that Gautama Buddha was prophecized only as much as your original post is true: We see evidence of these prophecies in Buddhist texts, just as Jesus' coming is only predicted in materials written after his death.

Ah, I get what you're saying now. Funny thing that.

[Reflectionist]

I meant Jesus said he would, and he did. Not Mohammad.

Furthermore, unless I am gravely mistaken, the topic we are posting in is named "Is the Bible True?" So, discussion of whether Jesus resurrected or not is very much relevant to this debate. And no, it is not a fact.

That is not discussing. That's an assumption. A statement not backed up by ANYTHING. By nothing at all.

[Hero of Legend]

...Except the fact that there is no proof that it happened, thus not being a fact.

[Alakhriveion]

Really? I could have sworn Mohammed was involved.

No, he isn't resurrected until we all are on Judgement Day. One would assume he gets in to Paradise.

I meant Jesus said he would, and he did. Not Mohammad.

But why SHOULD Muhammed come back to life? It is a neat trick, but not required for being a prophet.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

...Except the fact that there is no proof that it happened, thus not being a fact.

Correction, no reliable secular proof.

[TheAvengerLever]

Even though up to 500 people saw Jesus at the time.

[Alakhriveion]

Even though up to 500 people saw Jesus at the time.

There's no reliable source for that. I promise you there isn't. As many people saw Jesus walking after death as saw Dave Chappelle check in to rehab.

Edited by Alakhriveion, 30 June 2006 - 06:55 PM.