502 replies to this topic

[SteveT]

Dammit Steve, I know I've told you to keep the voice of reason out of here. This is at LEAST strike two.

Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!

[Goose]

The only un forgivable sin is against the holy spirit. That sin is called Blaspheming the holy spirit, which in esssence, is denying that Jesus is God, ect. So the only thing that God cannot forgive is not believing in him.
Which kinda makes sense from both points of view.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

The only un forgivable sin is against the holy spirit. That sin is called Blaspheming the holy spirit, which in esssence, is denying that Jesus is God, ect. So the only thing that God cannot forgive is not believing in him.
Which kinda makes sense from both points of view.

Which would mean God doesn't have his priorities straight. If someone believes in Jesus as God, a view that was hotly debated prior to the Nicean Council by Christians, and commits heinous crimes that's okay because they still have the chance to be forgiven if they repent sincerely.

However, someone who lives a relatively good life but denies Jesus is God can never be forgiven and is thus damned?

It makes sense, yes, but it's also at the same time not very...

Hang on a minute, isn't this still off topic?

[Goose]

We went off topic ages ago. Its debating Christianity, which is close enough.

Which would mean God doesn't have his priorities straight. If someone believes in Jesus as God, a view that was hotly debated prior to the Nicean Council by Christians, and commits heinous crimes that's okay because they still have the chance to be forgiven if they repent sincerely.

You said it, they stuff up, as we all do, even if we dont do stuff that horrible, and then they repent sincerly (As in, they mean it) Then they will be forgiven.

However, even if a person lives a saintly life and never screws up, (Which is quite impossible) And deny Jesus as God, then they blaspheme the holy spirit and end up in hell and all that stuff. But since they dont believe in Jesus to begin with, then it probably doesn't matter to them.

Thats why its a choice, and why we dont force people into it. Because it is a choice to follow and believe in Jesus, and we dont want people pretending to, just beacuse they dont want to get percecuted. I help out in my old highschool ministry, and face a lot of kids that choose either way, and you have to respect their choice, either way. As a christian I want to save their souls and what not, but by forcing and maniuplating them into believing, then your being a prick. However If you just be as genuine, honest and do the best that you can at being a person, then they might take you a bit more seriously.

Thats why I respect those that disagree with me, even though I think differently, and by stating my case as honestly and directly as I can, without all the crap involved, and genuining respecting the person in question, no matter what they decide,and then listening to what they say, and actually taking it in, rahter than just nodding your head, you can actually learn something.

Its from Alak, Korhend and everyone else that doesn't believe that I learn more about faith and what Christianity should be, rather than what it is, in some cases.

[Korhend]

So your telling me that I'm going to hell and Hans Frank and Seys-Inquart go to heaven?

[Goose]

I dont know who they are, but I"m assuming that they are bad men. If you belive in Jesus and ask for forgivenss, and sincerely mean it, then yes, they'll end up in heaven. God forgives all sin, no matter how horrible.

But if you deny the divinity of Jesus, then your personally insulting the holy spirit. Bad move there. It essentially means that if you dont believe in Jesus and that he's the savior, then your going to hell. But you dont believe in it, it shouldn't really affect you, because you see it all as bullshit anyway, right?

[Oberon Storm]

Hans Frank was Hitler's boy in Poland. He was found guilty at Nuremburg and exocuted for his part in the Holocaust.

I don't know who the other guy is but it does not matter. While there are better examples than this, if these people can get into heaven then heaven is not a place I want to be.

Edited by Chief Fire Storm, 27 June 2006 - 09:08 AM.

[Goose]

So what your saying is that if God can forgive these people, you dont want anything to do with God?

Thats kinda sad.

[TheAvengerLever]

[img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of people try to avoid joining a religion because they dont want to be wrong about where they'll end up when they die, but nuetrality and Christianity doesn't go well together

[Korhend]

So what your saying is that if God can forgive these people, you dont want anything to do with God?

Thats kinda sad.

Well your saying that thats okay because they say there sorry but blaspheming isn't okay. We hung Hans Frank for what he did. Do you suggest we should have let him off, or that we should hang Blasphemers?

[Goose]

I"m against the death penalty, utterly and completely. Dont let him off, make him pay for what he did, but everybody deserves forgiveness, if not from us, then from God. I"m not trying to say his crimes werent bad, they were horrible, from what I understand. An evil man, and If he was a nazi, and they rejected the idea of christianity in the first place, then he wont be going to heaven, because he blasphemed against the holy spirit.

Hang blasphemers? No. Its a choice. Freedom to practice religion, or not to practice religion.

[Korhend]

But as we've established, God apparently think rejecting him is worse then anything Frank did. So if we're free to blashpeme, why isn't Frank off the hook?

[TheAvengerLever]

Because everyone has both a temper and ropes and to clench their thirst for revenge they use both to their advantage.

[Korhend]

You just danced around the question again. Even if your against the death penalty Goose wants Frank to "pay for what he did". However as we've established, god considers Frank to be more morally clean then say me. So if you want Frank to pay for what he did, why not make me pay for what I'm doing?

[TheAvengerLever]

Because times change and so does our attitude towards murder. I'm not dancing around the question, I'm just giving you my basic opinion.

[Korhend]

In what way has it changed? Was murder unacceptable then but not now? You are dancing around the question. If god considers blasphame worse then crimes against humanity, how come we punish people for crimes against humanity and not blasphame?

[Oberon Storm]

So what your saying is that if God can forgive these people, you dont want anything to do with God?

Thats kinda sad.

Yes. Being seen as lower than that man for what is realy far less is very sad.

Edited by Chief Fire Storm, 27 June 2006 - 01:27 PM.

[Selena]

Not to throw a grenade into the mix here, but...


For some of you arguing against Avenger at the moment, what exactly are you expecting the Christian god to do? Blaming him for our own problems is just as bad, in my eyes, and blaming a human's bad behavior solely on 'the devil and his influence.' The age of the badass and temperamental Old Testament god has come and gone, and probably wasn't even there in the first place. Especially since I think a great deal of us are in agreeance that the stories in the Bible were meant to present moral lessons via certain degrees of drama, rather than accurately depict history.

By blaming the devil for so called evil behavior or blaming god for sitting on his arse whilst holocausts and murder takes place, you're losing sight of what the religion is actually about. Which is, essentially, a guide to how to better yourself as a person so that the world can live in peace and that you might have a chance to one day walk with god. In terms of god's judgement, I think of it like he's a parent and we're college kids who've moved out. We can do basically anything we want, but if he catches us breaking one of his more important rules, we're getting a smackdown and written out of the will. Or something along those lines.

So to those who blame god, I respond the same way as I do to those who blame the devil for all the world's problems. It's our own fault, it's our realm, so if you want situations to improve, deal with it yourself and stop looking for a scapegoat.

And yes. If you don't accept Jesus, no matter how moral your life was, you go to hell as a general rule of thumb. Or at least purgatory. At least that's the Christian idea. I find it to be illogical and quite repulsive, along with several other aspects of the religion, but it's something you have to accept. It's not like you're going to change anyone's mind. Whoop-de-doo, I'm going to hell in a religion I don't think is true. Big deal, right? There are better things to spend your time on than try to convince a religion to change their stance on the afterlife.

Going back, there's no possible way to put every animal on the planet into a ship of the Ark's relative proposed size. Unless god made the ship like Mary Poppin's handbag. So I again say the stories of olde are just meant to convey moral teachings, be it through fear, drama, what have you.

=====================


Also: I miss the days when posts in Contro/Lifestyle were more than two or three sentences long. Whatever happened to the essays, man? They've all been replaced by 'witty' banter.

[TheAvengerLever]

Or at least purgatory

I thought everyone decided that there is no place called Purgatory...

[Oberon Storm]

Blaming God isn't the point. He is being presented as a being that can do no wrong. Some even giving no other reason than he is God. We're challenging that. And the fact that I'm going to hell according to these religions doesn't bother me in the least. But, for arguments sake, if the Christian version is what will happen then I do find it a bit backward that someone like say Timothy McVeigh could potentialy go to heaven will I rot in damnation for all eternity.

And I like the witty banter.

[Selena]

I thought everyone decided that there is no place called Purgatory...

Last I heard it was still a part of the Catholic religion. But I might be wrong. In which case, dismiss that sentence. But arguing over that would be going, yet again, off-topic. Especially since that was not the point I was attempting to convey in my post. So meh.


As for witty banter, it gets old very fast and does nothing to further the debate other than tick people off. But that's just me.

Edited by Selena, 27 June 2006 - 02:12 PM.

[TheAvengerLever]

Am I the one doing the witty banter? I hope I'm not...and as for the Timothy McVeigh thing...if he believes that Jesus is his Savior, then yes, he's going to heaven. That's why I think God is so cool, cause he gives everyone a chance to be saved...

[Alakhriveion]

Am I the one doing the witty banter? I hope I'm not...and as for the Timothy McVeigh thing...if he believes that Jesus is his Savior, then yes, he's going to heaven. That's why I think God is so cool, cause he gives everyone a chance to be saved...

Unless they, like Thomas Jefferson, don't believe in the divinty of Jesus. Why does God hate America?

[TheAvengerLever]

God doesn't hate anything. The question is, why do you think God hates America.

[Korhend]

Because he lets Hanz Frank, Leopuld II and Torquemada into heaven, while Thomas Jefferson and George Washington are going to hell. How does that sound 'so cool' to you?

Edited by Korhend, 27 June 2006 - 02:40 PM.

[Reflectionist]

I'm certainly not the expert, but the word Grace is used in the Bible a lot, and that means "Getting what you don't deserve," or "not getting what you do deserve..." So that could have a lot of meaning here, I suppose.

I'm just gonna pop into the conversation whenever I find I have something to say. I see good points on both sides.

I agree with where Avenger Button's Heart is at, but not your words. I agree with Korhend's words, but not his heart.

that's just me though....

[Doopliss]

It's happening again... My point is that you can't have real free will if God has arbitrarily determined what is good and what is bad. Yes! I know I'm annoyingly vague!

[Alakhriveion]

I'm certainly not the expert, but the word Grace is used in the Bible a lot, and that means "Getting what you don't deserve," or "not getting what you do deserve..." So that could have a lot of meaning here, I suppose.

I'm just gonna pop into the conversation whenever I find I have something to say. I see good points on both sides.

I agree with where Avenger Button's Heart is at, but not your words. I agree with Korhend's words, but not his heart.

that's just me though....

¡Viva la Truthiness!

[TheAvengerLever]

Because he lets Hanz Frank, Leopuld II and Torquemada into heaven, while Thomas Jefferson and George Washington are going to hell. How does that sound 'so cool' to you?

If they didn't believe, then yes. They are going to hell. And that's their fault.

[Korhend]

So again, without dancing around the question, assuming your for some form of punishment for genocide, why are you not for punishment of herecy, when Jesus apparently is more concerned with who's in his fanclub then the suffering of man?

Edited by Korhend, 28 June 2006 - 02:28 PM.