502 replies to this topic

[SteveT]

It was also a convoluted way of pointing out that unlike all the false gods in the area, he did not, in fact, approve of human sacrifice.

[Alakhriveion]

If Superman refused to protect Metropolis, he'd be irresponsible. He doesn't have to be like he was in "Red Son," he just needs to help out.

[Korhend]

No...God is not to blame for the stuff he doesn't interfere with.

Yes, he definately is. He has the power to interfere. He was content with th concept that 10 million people could die in WWI, and Hitler not be one of them. He felt it was just that hitler could survive some 80 assassination attempts, and Huey Long couldn't survive one. By not interfering, he is giving his support. Thats why we wanted to lynch Herman Goring.

[TheAvengerLever]

No, because that just brings up the point of free will. By not interfering he's giving us humans the free will to do whatever we want.

[Alakhriveion]

But he denies us free will all the time, just rarely when it would actually help anyone. For example, when it comes to idolatry, throughout the Bible he's perfectly happy to force people in to line, but when it comes to genocide, he does nothing. When he gets fed up with humanity, instead of letting us have our free will and deal with the consequences (when there are any), he floods the world, yet when Paris Hilton decides to make an album, he won't interfere. That ain't omnibenevolence.

[TheAvengerLever]

...He doesn't interfere because he gives us free will. He DID interfere at one time or another but now he's giving us a chance to learn what is right or wrong on our own...but he's there for us if he pray to him.

[Alakhriveion]

...He doesn't interfere because he gives us free will. He DID interfere at one time or another but now he's giving us a chance to learn what is right or wrong on our own...but he's there for us if he pray to him.

This doesn't excuse interfering when he's insulted bt not when actual evil is being done. That's arbitrary, unjust, and irresponsible.

[TheAvengerLever]

Insulting the Almighty, the person that creating you and nurtured you, isn't evil? What could be more evil than that?

Right now, Christians are doing their best to tell people about Christ. If those people don't accept Christ and end up getting killed, raped, whatever, it's really their fault for not believing...cause when they die, they go to hell. If they did accept Jesus as their personal lord and savior and they die, guess where they end up? So it'd be all handy dandy anyway.

[SteveT]

This doesn't excuse interfering when he's insulted bt not when actual evil is being done. That's arbitrary, unjust, and irresponsible.

Then He realized it wasn't work, used Jesus to change the rules, stopped directly interfering...and now people are mad at Him for that.

Imagine how much effort it must take for Him to NOT smite us.

If those people don't accept Christ and end up getting killed, raped, whatever, it's really their fault for not believing...cause when they die, they go to hell.

Hey now, Jesus isn't a guardian angel. Believers get killed and raped all the time too. Part of that non-intervention policy God has going on. Besides, God doesn't play favorites.

Edited by SteveT, 25 June 2006 - 05:07 PM.

[Korhend]

Insulting the Almighty, the person that creating you and nurtured you, isn't evil? What could be more evil than that?

No, because that just brings up the point of free will. By not interfering he's giving us humans the free will to do whatever we want.

Which is exactly what Hermann Goring did. If god is off the hook, why isn't the Reichsmarshall?

Edited by Korhend, 25 June 2006 - 05:20 PM.

[Alakhriveion]

Right now, Christians are doing their best to tell people about Christ. If those people don't accept Christ and end up getting killed, raped, whatever, it's really their fault for not believing...cause when they die, they go to hell. If they did accept Jesus as their personal lord and savior and they die, guess where they end up? So it'd be all handy dandy anyway.

That's pretty unchristian. Aren't you supposed to love the sinner and hate the sin? Isn't suggesting that killing, raping, or whatevering infidels is acceptable, um, hating the sinner in a pretty hardcore way? Also, sociopathic?

Then He realized it wasn't work, used Jesus to change the rules, stopped directly interfering...and now people are mad at Him for that.

Imagine how much effort it must take for Him to NOT smite us.

A lot. I couldn't do it. But even before Jesus, he let a lot of things slide he really shouldn't have. The genocide so tastefully pictured above is a big example, but by no means the first.

[Fyxe]

Right now, Christians are doing their best to tell people about Christ. If those people don't accept Christ and end up getting killed, raped, whatever, it's really their fault for not believing...cause when they die, they go to hell. If they did accept Jesus as their personal lord and savior and they die, guess where they end up? So it'd be all handy dandy anyway.

THIS is what people have said to me to get me to believe in God. I think it's utterly rediculous. Nobody should believe in god 'just incase'. That's not a good reason to devote yourself to a faith. What if one of the other religions is right? WHAT THEN? You're screwed, buddy.

Believing in god just because you're scared of his possible wrath is worse than rediculous, it's almost dictatorial.

Insulting the Almighty, the person that creating you and nurtured you, isn't evil?

My parents created and nurtured me, last I checked.

Edited by Fyxe, 25 June 2006 - 08:00 PM.

[SteveT]

And this concludes tonight's production of "Evangelism Only Works on Christians."

[Doopliss]

You're soooo missing the point. God didn't actually want Abraham to kill his son, he was seeing how far Abraham would go to please him.

No...God is not to blame for the stuff he doesn't interfere with. Most people use God as an excuse these days and I'm getting tired of it. God is not to blame for whatever the hell humans do.

I think that you are the one who's actually ignoring the point of the other.

How are humans free to do whatever they want if they are forced to accept a moral arbitrarily determined by a God who threatens humans to punish them?

[TheAvengerLever]

And apparently [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of people dont get what free will really is. And God doesn't THREATEN anyone. He's not forcing anyone, he's not threatening anyone.

Think about it for a second. Literally forcing someone is not reading a few comforting words from a book. Neither...is threatening someone.

THIS is what people have said to me to get me to believe in God. I think it's utterly rediculous. Nobody should believe in god 'just incase'. That's not a good reason to devote yourself to a faith. What if one of the other religions is right? WHAT THEN? You're screwed, buddy

First off, I'm not asking anyone to believe in God. That's their choice. Secondly, I don't devote myself to a faith "just in case." If I did, why would I be arguing the existence of God? The idea that there is a God out there who loves us and sent his son to suffer a whole lot of pain on a cross because he loves us changes [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of people. And it changed me.

[Doopliss]

The Bible mentions a lot of time hell, isn't that threatening?

[Fyxe]

First off, I'm not asking anyone to believe in God. That's their choice. Secondly, I don't devote myself to a faith "just in case."

If you don't, why should you tell other people to?

[TheAvengerLever]

If you don't, why should you tell other people to?

I tell people about Christ if they ask me to tell them. Otherwise I'll be the annoying Christian.

[Nevermind]

You've got the wrong reasons, buddy. Only sticking to one faith, just in case you're wrong? That defies the whole point of faith and its meaning.

You gotta choose what YOU believe is right from your own searching, not from what others tell you, or not because it's "most likely to be right". You pick what you consider right, based on what you feel yourself. What you're doing there with that attitude you've got is giving Christians and Christianity a bad name.

Oh...my bad...you're ADDING to its bad name...

[Goose]

OK, not wanting to put fuel on the fire but the role of us Christians is to live a godly life, like Mother Teresa did. When people go, Man, Goose is cool whats with him? They'll say, well, he's Christian, I think.

Its not our job to be in peoples faces, but to get to work on being better people. So that one day, people wont forget about the crusades and all the shit thats been done in Jesus's name, but they'l be able to point to all the good works that have been done in his name, like what Mother Teresa did and what Avenger Button did. (Beacuse he'll do something great, I"m sure of it.)

Edited by Goose, 26 June 2006 - 12:01 AM.

[Alakhriveion]

And this concludes tonight's production of "Evangelism Only Works on Christians."

Dammit Steve, I know I've told you to keep the voice of reason out of here. This is at LEAST strike two.

And apparently [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of people dont get what free will really is. And God doesn't THREATEN anyone. He's not forcing anyone, he's not threatening anyone.

Think about it for a second. Literally forcing someone is not reading a few comforting words from a book. Neither...is threatening someone.

If you believe in the Bible, the most horrible of his threats have been acted upon.

OK, not wanting to put fuel on the fire but the role of us Christians is to live a godly life, like Mother Teresa did.

Or didn't. But I'm nitpicking.

[spunky-monkey]

...He doesn't interfere because he gives us free will. He DID interfere at one time or another but now he's giving us a chance to learn what is right or wrong on our own...but he's there for us if he pray to him.

Read Genesis. Adam and Eve were punished for disobeying God. Our creator never gave us 'free will' because we always belong to God in the sense that he created us and therefore is responsible for us. True freedom would be free from all consequence of actions or any punishment. BUT in the Bible God always gets angry with us if we don't do the right thing. If free will was real then Hell wouldn't exist. In a nutshell what you do and don't do result in two different outcomes:

1. Do what God wants ---> God is pleased ---> you are tested all over again
2. Do what you want ---> God is angry ---> you are punished

How is that free will?

Insulting the Almighty, the person that creating you and nurtured you, isn't evil? What could be more evil than that?

Actually Jesus said don't insult the Holy Spirit because you can never be forgiven. Too late for me then.

[Reflectionist]

Finally the truth about the Christian Church has been revealed!!!!

http://video.google....1&q=Jesus Video

(if you think Jesus is really like this, then... wow....)

http://video.google....1&q=Jesus Video
This obviously proves that Jesus is a mongo Hypocrite...

[TheAvengerLever]

Read Genesis. Adam and Eve were punished for disobeying God. Our creator never gave us 'free will' because we always belong to God in the sense that he created us and therefore is responsible for us. True freedom would be free from all consequence of actions or any punishment. BUT in the Bible God always gets angry with us if we don't do the right thing. If free will was real then Hell wouldn't exist. In a nutshell what you do and don't do result in two different outcomes:

1. Do what God wants ---> God is pleased ---> you are tested all over again
2. Do what you want ---> God is angry ---> you are punished

How is that free will?

TRUE freedom can't exist because of the evil that can take advantage of it. But we have free will, the free will to either commit evil or commit good.

Actually Jesus said don't insult the Holy Spirit because you can never be forgiven. Too late for me then

The Unforgiveable Sin...the actual rules of this are quite confusing. God supposedly forgives all sins...so why would this one be unforgiveable?

You've got the wrong reasons, buddy. Only sticking to one faith, just in case you're wrong? That defies the whole point of faith and its meaning.

You gotta choose what YOU believe is right from your own searching, not from what others tell you, or not because it's "most likely to be right". You pick what you consider right, based on what you feel yourself. What you're doing there with that attitude you've got is giving Christians and Christianity a bad name.

Are you refering to me??? Because I thought I had explained that the "just in case" thing was not why I believed in God.

Oh...my bad...you're ADDING to its bad name...

...excuse me?

Edited by TheAvengerButton, 26 June 2006 - 01:34 PM.

[Korhend]

TRUE freedom can't exist because of the evil that can take advantage of it. But we have free will, the free will to either commit evil or commit good.

But as you stated above, punishment does not interfere with free will. So if god loves us, why wasn't Hitler struck by lightning.

[Alakhriveion]

TRUE freedom can't exist because of the evil that can take advantage of it. But we have free will, the free will to either commit evil or commit good.

I'm not sure I follow. Not disagreeing, I think, but huh?

The Unforgiveable Sin...the actual rules of this are quite confusing. God supposedly forgives all sins...so why would this one be unforgiveable?

Good question, but Matthew 12:32, Mark 3:29, and Luke 12:10 say it is.

...excuse me?

Yeah, I think that's a flame Laz. Steee-rike one!

[TheAvengerLever]

I'm not sure I follow. Not disagreeing, I think, but huh?

Oop, sorry. I guess I'm not good at explaining it. I was trying to get at was that we cant have pure free will because we have evil in our hearts that likes to take advantage of pure free will...confusing? I'm sorry, just forget about it.

Good question, but Matthew 12:32, Mark 3:29, and Luke 12:10 say it is.

The only sin that God is unable to forgive is the unwillingness to accept forgiveness.

[Korhend]

The only sin that God is unable to forgive is the unwillingness to accept forgiveness.

Which means not only did god do nothing to prevent aushwitz, but is apparetnly letting some of them off the hook in the afterlife.

[Alakhriveion]

Oop, sorry. I guess I'm not good at explaining it. I was trying to get at was that we cant have pure free will because we have evil in our hearts that likes to take advantage of pure free will...confusing? I'm sorry, just forget about it.

If we're so inherently evil (and I don't think even the Bible goes that far), why do we get free will at all? Apparantly you were trying to use this to explain away free will with divine punishment, in which case I echo Korhend's question, why wasn't Hitler struck by lightning?

The only sin that God is unable to forgive is the unwillingness to accept forgiveness.

Then why does the Bible say that it is cursing the Holy Ghost, and not The Son, who does all the forgiving, that is forbidden?

[spunky-monkey]

TRUE freedom can't exist because of the evil that can take advantage of it. But we have free will, the free will to either commit evil or commit good.

You're missing the point, evil never took away our free will because God said not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge, so again we were held accountable for our actions. If we had true free will we would be our own masters and equal to God himself. We could do anything we want and no one could punish us (God) or tempt us anymore (Satan). We could destroy the entire Universe and not be sent to Hell. It sounds bad I know, but this kind of power is basically what God possesses and he can never be held accountable.

The only sin that God is unable to forgive is the unwillingness to accept forgiveness.

God can't forgive despair? Everyone gives up or strays from the straight & narrow at some point in their haphazard lives, the devil is more than capable of doing just that to us, so if argument is true then everyone is already damned to Hell.