502 replies to this topic

[TheAvengerLever]

Quite true, but it disappeared after that.

[SteveT]

You just don't hear about it...on account of the angels with lightsabers.

Kind of like how the Mexican drug plantations in U.S. National Parks never seem to get seen.

[Alakhriveion]

You don't know the Old Testament either...
"I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God" (Isaiah 44:6).

Beside him means he has no peer. The plurality of supernatural beings is there in the Hebrew: 'Elohim' is a plural; the singular exists but isn't used because God, again, isn't the ONLY god, he's just the BEST god. Exodus 4:16 uses the word to refer to Moses, contrasting him with Pharoh, the God-King, who isn't disproved, but defeated. Again, it never says he can't work miracles, and the Egyptians match the first few plagues, they just can't work miracles on the level of the creator. Also, note that there's a commandment against worshiping other gods, and one against worshiping idols. If other gods aren't real, that's one rule, don't worshiping false gods, but instead, two, one for that and one for not worshiping his competitors.

"I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself" (Isaiah 44:24).

God's the only creator. That has nothing to do with being the only god.

The Ark was destroyed WITH the Temple.

Yeah, but he got pissed earlier when it was stolen by Ashdodites. God smote the men of their city.

God isn't a sarcastic ass...wtf?

Then WHY is he treating Adam, Eve, and Abraham like that?

What can I say? We disobeyed him. Let me explain. He's God. In Noah's day people were sinning like crazy, knew it was wrong, but didn't repent. What they were doing was evil.

That still doesn't justify ending all life, save billions of animals somehow stored in a yacht.

Oh, and read the Bible. God saw that Noah was a righteous man.

Right, but he does some things which are decidedly unrightous. So God needs to start background-checking.

We have free will. But we are still under his protection.

Huh? No, look, even if we have free will, he set us loose and has the power to stop us, so whatever we pull is in part his fault.

So Noah was a drunk and a pervert? He's human.

So am I, but I don't get drunk in my tent and go around exposing my nakedness unto people.

Besides, he built an altar to God and God made the covenant with him.

Which is another injustice on his part.

God chooses the odd people as his voice...Moses I believe, was the one with the stutter.

Stuttering and incest aren't really that easily lumped together.

And he had to go against the Egyptians to get his people to the Promised Land.

Which we appreciate.

Altar...

I know! That's my point! God worked with this sleazebag and then smites people for questioning him! This is NOT all-rightous, all-benevolent behavior.

[spunky-monkey]

Beside him means he has no peer. The plurality of supernatural beings is there in the Hebrew: 'Elohim' is a plural; the singular exists but isn't used because God, again, isn't the ONLY god, he's just the BEST god.

This depends upon your definition of a God. The almighty God is Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. We know that our Creator is a jealous God because he tells us not to put any other God before him. The God of this world is Satan, he is not to be confused with the eternal God.

That still doesn't justify ending all life, save billions of animals somehow stored in a yacht.

God never justified why he created life to start with, so you can't justify its end either.

[TheAvengerLever]

Beside him means he has no peer. The plurality of supernatural beings is there in the Hebrew: 'Elohim' is a plural; the singular exists but isn't used because God, again, isn't the ONLY god, he's just the BEST god. Exodus 4:16 uses the word to refer to Moses, contrasting him with Pharoh, the God-King, who isn't disproved, but defeated. Again, it never says he can't work miracles, and the Egyptians match the first few plagues, they just can't work miracles on the level of the creator. Also, note that there's a commandment against worshiping other gods, and one against worshiping idols. If other gods aren't real, that's one rule, don't worshiping false gods, but instead, two, one for that and one for not worshiping his competitors.

Pharoh was a magician. And when he says don't worship other gods he's talking about Satan and his little horde.

God's the only creator. That has nothing to do with being the only god.

He is the True God. And he's the only one that promises salvation.

Yeah, but he got pissed earlier when it was stolen by Ashdodites. God smote the men of their city.

Yes, that he did.

Then WHY is he treating Adam, Eve, and Abraham like that?

Trying to make them admit what they did wrong. Adam and Eve made it worse for themselves by lying.

That still doesn't justify ending all life, save billions of animals somehow stored in a yacht.

Yeah it does. They were evil, corrupt men. They had their chance to turn back to God but they didn't. So, he drowned them.

Right, but he does some things which are decidedly unrightous. So God needs to start background-checking.

Dude, no one is perfect. Only Jesus was perfect.

Huh? No, look, even if we have free will, he set us loose and has the power to stop us, so whatever we pull is in part his fault.

Man can do whatever he wants.

So am I, but I don't get drunk in my tent and go around exposing my nakedness unto people.

Again, he's human. He's not perfect. But he did serve God and he feared him, and he didn't turn away from him. He's righteous in God's eyes.

Which is another injustice on his part.

...no it isn't!

Stuttering and incest aren't really that easily lumped together.

Moses did not commit incestual acts. Besides, incest wasn't bad until the Law was laid down.

Which we appreciate.

I really don't think you do.

I know! That's my point! God worked with this sleazebag and then smites people for questioning him! This is NOT all-rightous, all-benevolent behavior.

God doesn't smite people for questioning him, he smites them because they are extremely extremely disobediant. And smiting is a power reserved for God and God alone. He's the ultimate judge and our creator and he can do whatever the hell he wants with us.

[Alakhriveion]

Pharoh was a magician. And when he says don't worship other gods he's talking about Satan and his little horde.

Not in the Bible, not in any Dogma, really not anywhere except Milton.

He is the True God. And he's the only one that promises salvation.

Doesn't Marduk?

Trying to make them admit what they did wrong. Adam and Eve made it worse for themselves by lying.

Then what about Abraham?

Yeah it does. They were evil, corrupt men. They had their chance to turn back to God but they didn't. So, he drowned them.

That doesn't strike you as extremely childish?

Man can do whatever he wants.

Clearly we can't. God exercises his ability to stop us repeatedly in the Bible, yet Nero and MTV, he does nothing. CAN HE NOT HEAR THE SUFFERING?

Again, he's human. He's not perfect. But he did serve God and he feared him, and he didn't turn away from him. He's righteous in God's eyes.

That's still a pretty twisted view.

Moses did not commit incestual acts.

No, but Noah did.

Besides, incest wasn't bad until the Law was laid down.

Dude, even ANIMALS don't do that.

I really don't think you do.

Well, considering I seriously doubt that it was a miracle, maybe.

God doesn't smite people for questioning him, he smites them because they are extremely extremely disobediant.

Uh, yes, which includes questioning him. I mean, in some cases, and not others, because he's arbitrary as all hell.

And smiting is a power reserved for God and God alone.

Not if the existance of homocide is any indication.

He's the ultimate judge and our creator and he can do whatever the hell he wants with us.

Might ≠ Right

[Oberon Storm]

Dude, even ANIMALS don't do that

Yes they do.

[Alakhriveion]

Yes they do.

Have sex with their children?

[Korhend]

If my illegal ring of dog inbreeding tells me correctly, yes.

[Reflectionist]

Stop Debating. It's useless. The reason for this is in Jeremiah 29. Verse 13.

People only Find God when they seek him with all of their hearts. You can't find God if you don't want to. Alak, Korhend, and Wolf don't want to. Therefore, God has no reason to reveal Himself to them. Their loss really..

I think that might provide some (not much, but a little) insight into why people think that God hates everyone. People are just demanding that God work. When he doesn't, they assume it's because He doesn't exist. That's not the case at all.

It's because you want a reason to say "God doesn't exist"

As for Adam and Eve, they had one rule. ONE. ONLY ONE. Don't eat from THAT tree. What's the first thing they did? They ATE from THAT tree. Screwed it up for everyone.

Edited by Reflectionist, 23 June 2006 - 03:36 PM.

[Alakhriveion]

I think that might provide some (not much, but a little) insight into why people think that God hates everyone. People are just demanding that God work. When he doesn't, they assume it's because He doesn't exist. That's not the case at all.

No, I don't think he exists for different reasons. If I did, I'd still think he was
a petulant bully. In that same hypothetical vein, he is MY petulant bully.

It's because you want a reason to say "God doesn't exist"

There's plenty of reason for that, man. When you say God's flaws are an argument against the existance of God, you really mean it's an argument against your perception of God.

As for Adam and Eve, they had one rule. ONE. ONLY ONE. Don't eat from THAT tree. What's the first thing they did? They ATE from THAT tree. Screwed it up for everyone.

He never set that down as a rule, he just lied about it. They then blamed the snake, who he punished for blowing the whistle.

[SteveT]

Beside him means he has no peer. The plurality of supernatural beings is there in the Hebrew: 'Elohim' is a plural; the singular exists but isn't used because God, again, isn't the ONLY god, he's just the BEST god. Exodus 4:16 uses the word to refer to Moses, contrasting him with Pharoh, the God-King, who isn't disproved, but defeated. Again, it never says he can't work miracles, and the Egyptians match the first few plagues, they just can't work miracles on the level of the creator. Also, note that there's a commandment against worshiping other gods, and one against worshiping idols. If other gods aren't real, that's one rule, don't worshiping false gods, but instead, two, one for that and one for not worshiping his competitors.

Come on, Alak, you're better than this.

First off, the noun may be plural, but the verbs are always singular. It's just a case of the Royal We, which is an established, cross-cultural practice. (And yes, the Hebrews would know about it. The Egyptians use it, and whether you believe in Exodus or not, there WAS historical contact between the two cultures.)

And the break down of the first two commandments were effectively this:

1) Don't worship other people's gods, just me.
2) Don't make up your own gods to worship.

He's not admitting that other gods exist, only that other people worship them. Surely an atheist can understand that distinction.

Then he covers himself by adding a clause to say that gods who have not yet been invented are also off limits. Again, no admission of their actual existance.

[Korhend]

Yet no declaration that they do not exist. I fail to see how god slayed Tiamat without her existing.

Edited by Korhend, 23 June 2006 - 05:21 PM.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

People only Find God when they seek him with all of their hearts. You can't find God if you don't want to. Alak, Korhend, and Wolf don't want to. Therefore, God has no reason to reveal Himself to them. Their loss really..

Actually, it's this condescending tone of, "Well, it's their loss." That entire paragraph grates on my nerves like nbody's business and makes me want to reject the ideal of God even more. And I'm the agnostic. I'm the one who states, you cannot prove or disprove God's existence, therefore you cannot be sure if he does or does not exist.

It's because you want a reason to say "God doesn't exist"

Let's examine this phrase shall we?

Let us assume that God exists. That means:

1. Our lives have a definite purpose.
2. Somebody out there definitely loves us.
3. There IS life after death.
4. Somebody will right the wrongs after death, so the bad guys won't get away with it.

Now if God doesn't exist that surely means the opposite of the above points are true:

1. Our lives do not have a definite purpose.
2. Nobody out there loves us.
3. There is NO life after death.
4. Nobody will right the wrongs after death, so if the bad guys die before they are given justice, they will get away with it.

Oh yeah. That's a wonderful thing to want, isn't it?

[SteveT]

Yet no declaration that they do not exist.

God's shown Himself to be like a high school physics teacher. He starts off slow and doesn't always give the full picture right away. See: Jesus and kosher food.

I fail to see how god slayed Tiamat without her existing.

I fail to see how that's relevant without a Biblical citation.

And Wolf...I say this as a Presbyterian: there's a lot of hand-waving in that derivation.

Edited by SteveT, 23 June 2006 - 06:08 PM.

[Korhend]

Psalms 74:14: "Thou didst crush the heads of the Leviathan, thou didst give him for food to the desert people."

The leviathan being very similar in discription to the god Tiamat of the Jews neighbors. It short
"My god is bigger then your god."

[SteveT]

The leviathan being very similar in discription to the god Tiamat of the Jews neighbors.

So's a crocodile...or any number of marine reptiles (mythical monsters do often share resemblances to fossil animals, and fossils are sometimes exposed.)

[Korhend]

Also there is the question of what qualifies as a god? At what point does a creature pass from supernatural into a god? Could Satan be considered a god? By most religions views he probably would be, he certainly seems to match the abilities of the nordic and helenic 'gods'.

[Alakhriveion]

Come on, Alak, you're better than this.

First off, the noun may be plural, but the verbs are always singular. It's just a case of the Royal We, which is an established, cross-cultural practice. (And yes, the Hebrews would know about it. The Egyptians use it, and whether you believe in Exodus or not, there WAS historical contact between the two cultures.)

And the break down of the first two commandments were effectively this:

1) Don't worship other people's gods, just me.
2) Don't make up your own gods to worship.

He's not admitting that other gods exist, only that other people worship them. Surely an atheist can understand that distinction.

Then he covers himself by adding a clause to say that gods who have not yet been invented are also off limits. Again, no admission of their actual existance.

Not directly, but in the absense of a royal We or royal plural (which would be interesting from someone whose name is I am, and who uses nonplurals when refering only to himself, as in the case of 'El Shaddai'), you must admit the wording becomes vague. Then consider the treatment Pharoh receives. He can match less miracles, like turning water in to blood*, but when things become heavy he can't keep up. So it isn't that the living god of Egypt is a fraud, he's just weaker than the invisible god of Israel. Likewise, Baal worship is condemned, not because it is a misguided practice (It may well be, but God never says so, just that it pisses him off), but because in perfect keeping with the tribal god system of the place and time, worshiping a god other than your own is essentially treason.

*Contrary to what Penn and Teller have to say, this is actually quite difficult.

[SteveT]

Not directly, but in the absense of a royal We or royal plural (which would be interesting from someone whose name is I am, and who uses nonplurals when refering only to himself, as in the case of 'El Shaddai'), you must admit the wording becomes vague.

Multiple names for God, multiple authors, singular verbs.

Then consider the treatment Pharoh receives. He can match less miracles, like turning water in to blood*, but when things become heavy he can't keep up. So it isn't that the living god of Egypt is a fraud, he's just weaker than the invisible god of Israel.

To my knowledge, Exodus makes no mention of Pharoah's self-declared godhood. Further, it's court magicians who do the minor miracles. (Exodus 7)

Likewise, Baal worship is condemned, not because it is a misguided practice (It may well be, but God never says so, just that it pisses him off), but because in perfect keeping with the tribal god system of the place and time, worshiping a god other than your own is essentially treason.

Funny you should mention Baal, what with all the effort Elijah put into proving he doesn't exist. (1 Kings 18)

Edited by SteveT, 23 June 2006 - 07:49 PM.

[Alakhriveion]

Multiple names for God, multiple authors, singular verbs.

Yeah, but generic words for God are used consistantly.

To my knowledge, Exodus makes no mention of Pharoah's self-declared godhood. Further, it's court magicians who do the minor miracles. (Exodus 7)

Pharoh and Pharoh's magicians, well, Moses performed some of the miracles, does he get credit? Also, I seriously doubt one could be aware of Pharoh and not his declarations of divinity. The Egyptians made a pretty big deal over that.

Funny you should mention Baal, what with all the effort Elijah put into proving he doesn't exist. (1 Kings 18)

Next time, Gadget.

[Doopliss]

Trying to make them admit what they did wrong. Adam and Eve made it worse for themselves by lying.
Yeah it does. They were evil, corrupt men. They had their chance to turn back to God but they didn't. So, he drowned them.

God doesn't smite people for questioning him, he smites them because they are extremely extremely disobediant. And smiting is a power reserved for God and God alone. He's the ultimate judge and our creator and he can do whatever the hell he wants with us.

Man can do whatever he wants.

How are humans free to do whatever they want if they are forced to accept a moral arbitrarily determined by a God who threatens humans to punish them?

Dude, no one is perfect. Only Jesus was perfect.

Ok, but definitely some of the things that Abraham did weren't what we would expect from a righteous man.

Stop Debating. It's useless. The reason for this is in Jeremiah 29. Verse 13.

People only Find God when they seek him with all of their hearts. You can't find God if you don't want to. Alak, Korhend, and Wolf don't want to. Therefore, God has no reason to reveal Himself to them. Their loss really..

I have been PWNED... again! (There's no offense intended, but you'll have to do something better than that to convince me.)

Actually, it's this condescending tone of, "Well, it's their loss." That entire paragraph grates on my nerves like nbody's business and makes me want to reject the ideal of God even more. And I'm the agnostic. I'm the one who states, you cannot prove or disprove God's existence, therefore you cannot be sure if he does or does not exist.
Let's examine this phrase shall we?

Let us assume that God exists. That means:

1. Our lives have a definite purpose.
2. Somebody out there definitely loves us.
3. There IS life after death.
4. Somebody will right the wrongs after death, so the bad guys won't get away with it.

Now if God doesn't exist that surely means the opposite of the above points are true:

1. Our lives do not have a definite purpose.
2. Nobody out there loves us.
3. There is NO life after death.
4. Nobody will right the wrongs after death, so if the bad guys die before they are given justice, they will get away with it.

Oh yeah. That's a wonderful thing to want, isn't it?

You missed the most important one: There's a supernatural being whose reasoning is uncomprehensible for our intelligence who will magically (or however he does it) work the universe for us and will save us the bother of thinking by ourselves and admitting that we are alone and we must use our own reasoning to get the answers we are lloking for. With it's opposite, of course.

[Oberon Storm]

Have sex with their children?

Cats. If a male cat is still around when his mother goes into heat again then yes they will.

[Alakhriveion]

I stand corrected then.

[Nevermind]

Yeah true that. I spent a few weeks trying to stop my cat having sex with his sister until we got em both fixed.

[TheAvengerLever]

How are humans free to do whatever they want if they are forced to accept a moral arbitrarily determined by a God who threatens humans to punish them?

They can still do whatever they want even if it goes against God's rules but they have to accept the consequences of their actions.

Ok, but definitely some of the things that Abraham did weren't what we would expect from a righteous man.

Again, he was righteous because he did what God asked him to do. He almost killed his son for pete's sake.

[Korhend]

They can still do whatever they want even if it goes against God's rules but they have to accept the consequences of their actions.

Yeah, but god is still responsible for what happens when he doesn't interfere. And considering the things that god hasn't interfered with, his morality is seriously in question.

Again, he was righteous because he did what God asked him to do. He almost killed his son for pete's sake.

Thats the kind of thing we're talking about.

[Reflectionist]

Oh... and elohim refers to the Trinity. Thanks for playin

[Doopliss]

They can still do whatever they want even if it goes against God's rules but they have to accept the consequences of their actions.

...WHY?

Again, he was righteous because he did what God asked him to do. He almost killed his son for pete's sake.

Oh, would that be moral?

[TheAvengerLever]

You're soooo missing the point. God didn't actually want Abraham to kill his son, he was seeing how far Abraham would go to please him.

No...God is not to blame for the stuff he doesn't interfere with. Most people use God as an excuse these days and I'm getting tired of it. God is not to blame for whatever the hell humans do.