502 replies to this topic

[SOAP]

But sexuality isn't a matter of belief. You're gay because you have sex with men or want to, you're a Christian because you believe in the Christian god. If you can show these hordes of people claiming to be Christians don't really believe, we've got a case, and if you could show that everyone who eats porridge with sugar holds Mongolian citizenship, we've got another one. But as long as they believe (and I can't see them claiming to if they don't, at least not in such numbers), you can't say the majority aren't Christians.

How do you know they believe? Because they say they're Christian? Because it's one thing to say your in in a certian religion, it's another to actually believe in your religion. I'm not trying to say there's some sort of arbitrary standard of what's Christian or not. But if they were really were Christian, it be because the love God, not because they attend church regularly or whatever. I don't have exstensive stastics nor have I gone door to door to every Christian in this country. All I can go by is my personal experience. I've been in whole churches that were dead as peices of driftwood. But I've also had personal encounters with people who don't just claim to be Christian, you see it actions and how they live their lives that they are the genuine thing. They don't go about living as if they believed God was dead.

And hordes? Don't nonbelievers still outnumber believers, real or otherwise, in this world? Even if most Christians today were phonies it still wouldn't hordes. Christians particularly just seem like a majority because they're the loudest and most involved. In the US at least. Maybe one horde.

Well...one can be homosexual and be a christian too.

I wasn't arguing that.

Edited by SOAP, 01 July 2006 - 01:46 AM.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Well...one can be homosexual and be a christian too.

Nobody said you couldn't... unless I missed someone's post or something.

There are ways to test peoples' faith. However they're none too.....ethical...
And would certainly result in a worldwide manhunt and one's jailing or death sentence.

That reminds me of a story a Christian once told me of a parish she knew.

The pastor was preaching on "Standing up for the Lord, paying the price, being willing to die even if that's what it took for the sake of the gospel message." People in the congregation were calling out "Praise the Lord!" and "Hallelujah!" in response to his preachings coz that was the type of church it was. So, just when they had just finished worship and were about to sit down for the sermon, three masked gunmen walked in the door and shouted, "Anyone willing to die for their God stand up and be counted!" And they pointed their guns around at the congregation.

Well... you can imagine what happened next. They all hit the floor running and ran right out. There were only a few left standing. So when everyone was gone the pastor said, "Ok, you can take off the masks now and we can have church."

However, if we go by this definition, there'd be very few people who would qualify for any religion.

The fact that they actually believe in their God must count for something, after all, there are varying degrees of belief.

[Oberon Storm]

But that wasn't what he was saying, that's all. He was saying you would stick to your guns no matter what, even if God came down personally and poked you in the eye, or if you knew you were jumping into a big pit of flame or something. Conviction is one thing, but completely unwavering conviction is another, that's all I was pointing out.

If God came and personally poked me in the eye I will know He exist but I still won't really believe. Not unless He fixed what I see as some serious character flaws.

[Hero of Legend]

I believe because I think it's true. That's why it's called BELIEVING.

Why do you think it's true, then? I mean, there must be a reason. (Of course you don't need tell me if you don’t want to, but I'd like to know how you think here)

But you know what, respect me or not, I don't care, but do tell me one thing. HOW THE FUCK does it make life easier???? Am I missing something here? Is my life meant to be some kind of fake paradise because I'm a believer? Fuck no! We all go through the same bullshit in this degenerative world as anyone else does. The difference is that we believe in things that you think are crazy.

I never said that, but you still have more to look forward to than I have.

Nothing worth having comes easy.

You think life is worth living? That's why it's easier for you.

And as for this false Christian thing, that's a personal opinion. Most of those people think they're Christian, therefore they are. You don't need to be an extremist to follow a religion.

[Fyxe]

If God came and personally poked me in the eye I will know He exist but I still won't really believe. Not unless He fixed what I see as some serious character flaws.

I believe that if God existed he would be kinda like he appears in The Simpsons and Futurama. Not as all-powerful as people think, but limited in his power, yet people constantly blame him for everything. Poor guy, really.

Basically, he can't be all powerful, although if he is, you're right, he sucks at being a god. But if he isn't, then he could actually be acceptable as a god. But Christians don't like the idea of a god having flaws.

Which I find hypocritical because God made man in his image, apparently, and we constantly depict God as a human no matter how rediculously filled with ego that idea is.

Edited by Fyxe, 01 July 2006 - 06:16 AM.

[SteveT]

no it comes down to self-classification. Thats why you fill out your own census form rather then a jury of your peers.

Here's the thing about self-classification: MySpace.

There's plenty of people on MySpace who say they are 14-year old boys, act like 14-year old boys, have all the pictures to prove it. But are they 14 year olds? Not necessarily. A lot of them are just posing as 14-years olds because for whatever reason (sinister or otherwise), they want to be accepted by the other 14-year olds.

Likewise, a lot of people just want to look Christian, and keep up the charade on government forms. A lot of people view Christianity more as a mandatory social club than a religion, and they're sure as Hell not going to tell you who they are.

Long story short, self-classification is flawed.

Let me put it this way, would you except it if Arunma was to decide for you that your not christian? After all, you might not live up to his standards. This is why things are done by self classification.

Well, this is where "Judge not lest ye be judged" comes in. We're instructed in the Bible to just play along and let God sort out who's a true Christian and who isn't. Inquisitions are unbiblical.

Edited by SteveT, 01 July 2006 - 07:53 AM.

[Nevermind]

Why do you think it's true, then? I mean, there must be a reason. (Of course you don't need tell me if you don’t want to, but I'd like to know how you think here)

To be honest, I don't really know. To me, it just feels like there's more than a hint of truth to it. I don't believe science and evolution can explain why I have the thoughts that I do have. The things that go through my head are that crazy, and that unexplainable that even I, in my own mind, cannot comprehend as to why such thoughts exist, and I guess you could say I've had way, way too many coincidences for them to be merely coincidental.

You think life is worth living? That's why it's easier for you.

I thought life was worth living even back in the day when I was slagging off at religious people myself. If you think life is not worth living, that is a personal issue between you and yourself and has nothing to do with religion.

Edited by Lazurukeel, 01 July 2006 - 07:55 AM.

[Korhend]

Well, this is where "Judge not lest ye be judged" comes in. We're instructed in the Bible to just play along and let God sort out who's a true Christian and who isn't. Inquisitions are unbiblical.

Then you cant really say christians aren't the minority "lest ye be judged".

Edited by Korhend, 01 July 2006 - 08:47 AM.

[Doopliss]

The pastor was preaching on "Standing up for the Lord, paying the price, being willing to die even if that's what it took for the sake of the gospel message." People in the congregation were calling out "Praise the Lord!" and "Hallelujah!" in response to his preachings coz that was the type of church it was. So, just when they had just finished worship and were about to sit down for the sermon, three masked gunmen walked in the door and shouted, "Anyone willing to die for their God stand up and be counted!" And they pointed their guns around at the congregation.

Well... you can imagine what happened next. They all hit the floor running and ran right out. There were only a few left standing. So when everyone was gone the pastor said, "Ok, you can take off the masks now and we can have church."

I don't think we should take the people who fled as non-believers. Think about it: it is was probable that the masked gunmen were insane and only wished to kill people because of their religious beliefs. If God existed, I think he would prefer that you fled from them and continued dedicating your life to good than you stayed and died sencelessly (vocabulary?). It isn't worth to die for God in certain situations.

I think that we should consider believers the people who think that the teachings of Christianity are true. For example, there could be an assassin who is a bad person but he is a believer because he thinks he will go to hell.

[TheAvengerLever]

Nobody said you couldn't... unless I missed someone's post or something.
That reminds me of a story a Christian once told me of a parish she knew.

The pastor was preaching on "Standing up for the Lord, paying the price, being willing to die even if that's what it took for the sake of the gospel message." People in the congregation were calling out "Praise the Lord!" and "Hallelujah!" in response to his preachings coz that was the type of church it was. So, just when they had just finished worship and were about to sit down for the sermon, three masked gunmen walked in the door and shouted, "Anyone willing to die for their God stand up and be counted!" And they pointed their guns around at the congregation.

Well... you can imagine what happened next. They all hit the floor running and ran right out. There were only a few left standing. So when everyone was gone the pastor said, "Ok, you can take off the masks now and we can have church."

However, if we go by this definition, there'd be very few people who would qualify for any religion.

The fact that they actually believe in their God must count for something, after all, there are varying degrees of belief.

Oh boy...firstly, there is SOOO much wrong with that story. Why would the pastor do something like that? He could lose a lot of church members by doing that. Those who were left would probably never have come back, and would've told the other members what happened, and they would never have come back. I know it's a story that at the end asks you whether you would be one of those left standing. But it's just filled with so much flaw in the role of the preacher that I found myself laughing instead of dwelling on what I would do in that situation. And surely, those gunmen or the pastor would've done some time, right?

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Oh boy...firstly, there is SOOO much wrong with that story. Why would the pastor do something like that? He could lose a lot of church members by doing that. Those who were left would probably never have come back, and would've told the other members what happened, and they would never have come back. I know it's a story that at the end asks you whether you would be one of those left standing. But it's just filled with so much flaw in the role of the preacher that I found myself laughing instead of dwelling on what I would do in that situation. And surely, those gunmen or the pastor would've done some time, right?

Yeah, I found it funny too. Funny and relevant.

[Hero of Legend]

To be honest, I don't really know. To me, it just feels like there's more than a hint of truth to it. I don't believe science and evolution can explain why I have the thoughts that I do have. The things that go through my head are that crazy, and that unexplainable that even I, in my own mind, cannot comprehend as to why such thoughts exist, and I guess you could say I've had way, way too many coincidences for them to be merely coincidental.

Hm... I suppose my life is void of any such coincidences.

It is a choice if you want to accept not knowing why something happens or not. Like you said, we see what we want to see, and then some. Personally I'm not the kind of guy that goes "Science can't explain this (yet), therefore I believe God must have done it." But to each his own.

I thought life was worth living even back in the day when I was slagging off at religious people myself. If you think life is not worth living, that is a personal issue between you and yourself and has nothing to do with religion.

Yes I know. But believing that my life had an affect on my afterlife and was not completely pointless (as in, it doesn’t matter if I live because we’ll all die, and the universe will be destroyed anyway) from the moment I was born would help me in my pessimistic cynicism. Not that I want to be helped or anything, I have come to terms with my existence by now.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 01 July 2006 - 01:01 PM.

[Fyxe]

Coincidences only exist if you're looking for them.

[Nevermind]

If there is no afterlife, then I feel my life is worth even more, because it means that this is it, nothing more afterwards, so I should try even harder to make the best of having the chance to exist.

[SOAP]

See, this is why I don't come to Contro anymore. I can say one little thing and you guys misinterpret it and the debate flies into a totally different direction that has little or nothing to do with with I really meant. And any attempt to clarify myself only digs me in a deeper mess.

How do I know there's posers? Well for one thing, I was one! For the longest time I called myeslf Christian without knowing what it really meant. I thought just going to search every Sunady, and singing hymns was all it took. I called myself Christian because I didn't know what other term to call myself. But in High School I took a good look inside and realized I did not believe in God, like at all. If I died, that'd be it. No God will be at the other end of the darkness to greet me. God who? Now things are different. I believe so now I'm a believer. A person who doesn't believe in God is not a believer and therefore not a Christian. Somehow this is an extreme deinition?

To clarify I'm not arguing whether or not everyone who's Christian believe in God. Only God can know that. That's not what I'm judging. But if a person says their Christian and when you ask them why, they tell you it's because they go to church, follw religious doctrine, do good Christiany things, ect BUT nowhere do they mention that they believe in God which the only thing that raelly matters, that sounds a bit iffy to me.

Anyways for the sake of arguement, let's say everyone who simply says they're Christian. They STILL would not outnumber non-believers and even if they did, a minority is not defined by just numbers. Blacks and latinos outnumber whites in this country and asians make up most of the world. Yet they're still considered minorities because whites, though few, have more power in the US and most western countries. Now there ARE powerful people who are Christian. But overall most of the power goes to non-believers. Especially in everday situations. If say a Christian were to try to preach to a non-believer, he's shoving his beliefs down that person's throat. That's not allowed. But it's okay if an athiest pokes and probes at their beliefs and say they're stupid for believing something they can't see. Okay. I can see how that's fair.

You think it's easier for Christians becuase they believe someone bearded man of light will whisk them away from this carppy world when they die? It's not! Christians have just as much insecurities as anyone else. We don't know what will happen when we die anymore than you do. We doubt our own faith sometimes. I mean how could we not with most of the world telling us we're wrong and providing all this much more solid evidence to prove just how wrong we are. It'd be easier to just accept the mainstream view then to have defend ourselves everytime someone asks why we believe in God. Because we want to! God! Why is that so hard to accept? What other answer can I give you that will satisfy you people? "Well gee, you're right! Believing God is stupid after all. I guess I'll just be athiest." I won't say that but don't think the thought hasn't come through my mind.

Edited by SOAP, 02 July 2006 - 04:02 AM.

[Nevermind]

The pastor was preaching on "Standing up for the Lord, paying the price, being willing to die even if that's what it took for the sake of the gospel message." People in the congregation were calling out "Praise the Lord!" and "Hallelujah!" in response to his preachings coz that was the type of church it was. So, just when they had just finished worship and were about to sit down for the sermon, three masked gunmen walked in the door and shouted, "Anyone willing to die for their God stand up and be counted!" And they pointed their guns around at the congregation.

Well... you can imagine what happened next. They all hit the floor running and ran right out. There were only a few left standing. So when everyone was gone the pastor said, "Ok, you can take off the masks now and we can have church."

I've heard that story and variations of it millions of times before. It's like an...urban myth. Hell, you could even call it a parable. It's like the story where there are Christians worshipping in a church and gunmen come in and tell them that whoever is truly a Christian to come outside with them. Three people stand up, and are taken outside, then three gunshots are heard. The gunmen come back in, tell everyone they can go. Everyone goes outside, and finds the three people alive and well, and then the gunmen mentions something about faith and commitment or something like that. Same message, different story. But chances are, when you hear one of them, it will be from someone telling you about "something they heard happened at this church", or something like that.

[Reflectionist]

Coincidences only exist if you're looking for them.

You mean, like.... saying the universe came into being by a coincidence, and not by a Creator?

[Wolf O'Donnell]

I'd just like to test a few people here, before we continue.

http://www.jamaicaob...WITH_CROSS_.asp

How many people believe that the Christians that built the statue described in that article are real Christians?

P.S. There is nothing to prove that the Universe was created by a Christian God.

Edited by Wolf_ODonnell, 02 July 2006 - 03:03 PM.

[TheAvengerLever]

There is nothing to prove the the universe was created by anything.

[Alakhriveion]

Anyways for the sake of arguement, let's say everyone who simply says they're Christian. They STILL would not outnumber non-believers and even if they did, a minority is not defined by just numbers. Blacks and latinos outnumber whites in this country and asians make up most of the world. Yet they're still considered minorities because whites, though few, have more power in the US and most western countries.

Well, actually, whites are considered the majority in the United States because theyre 70% of the country. Blacks and Latinos are considered the minority because they make up 13% of the country each (roughly). It is indeed true that most people are Asians, and accordingly, whites are considered a minority in Asia and the world in general.

Now there ARE powerful people who are Christian. But overall most of the power goes to non-believers.

Obviously, if that were the case, Christians wouldn't have such legislative influence. There hasn't been a Non-Christian president since Jefferson, who still believed in some sort of god.

Especially in everday situations. If say a Christian were to try to preach to a non-believer, he's shoving his beliefs down that person's throat. That's not allowed.

Well, it is allowed, just annoying. You can't have someone arrested for preaching at you or anything.

But it's okay if an athiest pokes and probes at their beliefs and say they're stupid for believing something they can't see. Okay. I can see how that's fair.

Freedom of Speech, man.

You think it's easier for Christians becuase they believe someone bearded man of light will whisk them away from this carppy world when they die? It's not! Christians have just as much insecurities as anyone else. We don't know what will happen when we die anymore than you do. We doubt our own faith sometimes. I mean how could we not with most of the world telling us we're wrong and providing all this much more solid evidence to prove just how wrong we are. It'd be easier to just accept the mainstream view then to have defend ourselves everytime someone asks why we believe in God. Because we want to! God! Why is that so hard to accept? What other answer can I give you that will satisfy you people? "Well gee, you're right! Believing God is stupid after all. I guess I'll just be athiest." I won't say that but don't think the thought hasn't come through my mind.

People do the same thing from the other side all the time. That's what proselytizing is.

To clarify I'm not arguing whether or not everyone who's Christian believe in God. Only God can know that. That's not what I'm judging. But if a person says their Christian and when you ask them why, they tell you it's because they go to church, follw religious doctrine, do good Christiany things, ect BUT nowhere do they mention that they believe in God which the only thing that raelly matters, that sounds a bit iffy to me.

I still seriously doubt that so many people claim to be Christians but don't believe in God, especially since so FEW of them actually go to Church or are actively Christian. Belief would seem to be the only thing they've got.

[Reflectionist]

There is nothing to prove the the universe was created by anything.

Besides the fact that its here, and science proves that everything must have a logical cause. What irks me about 'logical cause' is they say that two random particles randomly collided and randomly created life.... instead of an intelligent being that purposefully did it.

[SOAP]

Well, actually, whites are considered the majority in the United States because theyre 70% of the country. Blacks and Latinos are considered the minority because they make up 13% of the country each (roughly). It is indeed true that most people are Asians, and accordingly, whites are considered a minority in Asia and the world in general.

True. But they're becoming a minority really quick, gene-pool wise. Anyways my point still stands. Minorities aren't just about numbers. It's about power, wealth, status. There are some cases were the few opress the many.

Freedom of Speech, man.

It should work both ways then. It doesn't always though.

People do the same thing from the other side all the time. That's what proselytizing is.

In most cases they're not doing it to make the other person look dumb.

I still seriously doubt that so many people claim to be Christians but don't believe in God, especially since so FEW of them actually go to Church or are actively Christian. Belief would seem to be the only thing they've got.

Maybe. But belief is the most important thing. I mean if you say you're Christian but you don't believe in the Christian god, then you're not a Christian. Now there may be [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] who are active Church going individuals. But if they don't believe in God then they're just posing. I'm not saying that everyone who goes to church and claims to be Christian is a big fat imposter. Only those things aren't what make a Christian a Christian.

[Alakhriveion]

True. But they're becoming a minority really quick, gene-pool wise.

Well, yeah, half of American CHILDREN are Latino, so the demographics are going to shift something fierce in the next couple decades. But children can't vote yet.

Anyways my point still stands. Minorities aren't just about numbers. It's about power, wealth, status. There are some cases were the few opress the many.

Indeed there are. This isn't one of them: Most people identify as Christians, believe as Christians, vote as Christians.

It should work both ways then. It doesn't always though.

Like when?

In most cases they're not doing it to make the other person look dumb.

No, they're doing it to make the oher person look evil. Different tactics, but niether is much more decent than the other.

Maybe. But belief is the most important thing. I mean if you say you're Christian but you don't believe in the Christian god, then you're not a Christian. Now there may be [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] who are active Church going individuals. But if they don't believe in God then they're just posing. I'm not saying that everyone who goes to church and claims to be Christian is a big fat imposter. Only those things aren't what make a Christian a Christian.

Right, but MOST people who identify as Christians don't go to church. What reason other than belief in a Christian god do these people have for identifying as Christians?

Besides the fact that its here, and science proves that everything must have a logical cause.

Really? Man, it's been so long since Monolithic Science 101 I must have forgotten that testing hypotheses results in absolute fact.

What irks me about 'logical cause' is they say that two random particles randomly collided and randomly created life.

STOP! Nobody says that. Nobody ever HAS said that except Creationists. There is nothing random about the beginning of life, nor evolution.

[Nevermind]

STOP! Nobody says that. Nobody ever HAS said that except Creationists. There is nothing random about the beginning of life, nor evolution.

Actually there was a huge debate in our anthropology class because the lecturer was trying to tell us that evolution was not a result of adaptation; that a random change in a species genes happened, and if it was advantageous, it stayed, and if it was not, it went. We were trying to tell her that there had to be a catalyst for a species such as humans to survive through ecological changes so long. I found the polar bear and its black skin to be a fine example, but she couldn't comprehend what I was saying...

[Korhend]

Maybe she got it and just realized theres no scientific validity?

[Nevermind]

Umm, well from her words "I don't understand what you're trying to say", I got a rather different impression...


Not to mention that an environmentally influenced state of evolution has more validity than that of "it happened....just because...".

[Hero of Legend]

If there is no afterlife, then I feel my life is worth even more, because it means that this is it, nothing more afterwards, so I should try even harder to make the best of having the chance to exist.

That is one way to look at it. But for me, it doesn't matter because I won't be there to remember my life after I die. I WILL make the most of it while it lasts, though.

You think it's easier for Christians because they believe someone bearded man of light will whisk them away from this crappy world when they die? It's not! Christians have just as much insecurities as anyone else. We don't know what will happen when we die anymore than you do. We doubt our own faith sometimes.

Then by your definition, you are not a true Christian.

Doubting a religion is your fault and does not affect the advantages of believing in said religion.

And as for the rest of your posts: Prove it.

Actually there was a huge debate in our anthropology class because the lecturer was trying to tell us that evolution was not a result of adaptation; that a random change in a species genes happened, and if it was advantageous, it stayed, and if it was not, it went.

Exactly, that IS the driving force behind evolution. That a species seemingly adapts to the environment is because only the members with the (currently) advantageous mutations survive, or at least they gain an advantage over the rest of their species, resulting in more offspring and more individuals who carry the new gene.

We were trying to tell her that there had to be a catalyst for a species such as humans to survive through ecological changes so long.

Uh... But it doesn't. I dunno what else to tell you. We haven't even existed for that long...

I found the polar bear and its black skin to be a fine example, but she couldn't comprehend what I was saying...

The polar bear's skin serves the same function as the skin of a black man, namely to protect against harmful radiation from the sun. It is an advantage for the bears that do have it, since they live in an exposed area (the poles are exposed to more UV light than the equator) thus it has become the standard.

Not to mention that an environmentally influenced state of evolution has more validity than that of "it happened....just because...".

Apparently she did not teach you how the process of evolution really works... Know this, there is no way for evolution to exist but through random mutations. But I'll ask you this, why do you think this idea has less validity? It's not like the genes have any idea of the environment, nor that they can change according to it.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 03 July 2006 - 10:03 AM.

[Nevermind]

A polar bear's skin, being black, also retains more heat for their bodies.

So let's see...


1. Polar bear (or its ancestor) lives in cold climate. Black skin gene doesn't come along, polar bears can't survive in the cold. This is not true because we know polar bears both have black skin and live...at the poles.

2. Polar bear lives in warm climate. Black skin gene comes along, polar bear's body generates too much heat, black skin gene disappears as it serves no purpose. UNLESS it randomly became black, and then migrated.

3. Polar bear lives in cold climate, black skin gene comes along, polar has black skin, and can actually survive in colder climate.

Now, unless the polar bear, or whatever it came from, actually migrated right after getting black skin, the black skin would've disappeared before they got to a colder climate in the first place, thus negating the fact that a polar lives in cold climates AND has black skin.

Know this, there is no way for evolution to exist but through random mutations. But I'll ask you this, why do you think this idea has less validity? It's not like the genes have any idea of the environment, nor that they can change according to it.

Why is one's body unable to adapt to its surroundings? The genes only need to have an idea of the environment if they suddenly decide to change something. However, your body is affected by your environment, right? So does adaptation have nothing to do with macro-evolution?

[Alakhriveion]

A polar bear's skin, being black, also retains more heat for their bodies.

So let's see...
1. Polar bear (or its ancestor) lives in cold climate. Black skin gene doesn't come along, polar bears can't survive in the cold. This is not true because we know polar bears both have black skin and live...at the poles.

2. Polar bear lives in warm climate. Black skin gene comes along, polar bear's body generates too much heat, black skin gene disappears as it serves no purpose. UNLESS it randomly became black, and then migrated.

3. Polar bear lives in cold climate, black skin gene comes along, polar has black skin, and can actually survive in colder climate.

Now, unless the polar bear, or whatever it came from, actually migrated right after getting black skin, the black skin would've disappeared before they got to a colder climate in the first place, thus negating the fact that a polar lives in cold climates AND has black skin.

Indeed. I think it is important ot note, of course, that filling an ecological niche is enough reason to adapt, and the environment itself doesn't have to change.

Why is one's body unable to adapt to its surroundings? The genes only need to have an idea of the environment if they suddenly decide to change something. However, your body is affected by your environment, right? So does adaptation have nothing to do with macro-evolution?

Well, genes don't 'decide' to do jack shit. They mutate. Of course, evolution isn't a series of random mutations any more than gravity is a series of random falling. Mutations occur all the time, and most of them are completely meaningless. When they're slightly meaningful (longer arms, trichromatic vision, what have you) they're selected for or against, and that's speciation.

[Nevermind]

So what you're saying is that our genes are constantly mutating and mutating non-stop, and our bodies are accepting and rejecting mutations as they come along in accordance with the prophecy.....I mean...their usefulness.