191 replies to this topic

[Nevermind]

Why bring about consequence now when an eternity is already set up? People have their entire lives to be forgiven, so why punish them already?

[RevolutionDude]

Because they chose that... wait, they didnt choose to be poor, they chose not to trust God....and for that, they must suffer for eternity...but God gave them a chance, too...but it is up to us to tell them that they still have their chance....

[Nevermind]

Eternity AFTER death.

[SOAP]

Okay, I'm gonna be as impartial as possible (okay, maybe not, but more so than some people here) because Bond asked me to come in here, and look at both sides of..what all's the topic in this last page.

On the one hand: I do find it incredibly selfish to say "I'm going to pray to God that I get something". Pray to God for health, for safety, and for others to have the things that they need. You do NOT pray to God for your own gain, when there are people in this world who only have a handful of rice to survive on each day. You ask Santa for gifts. You ask God to give you what is necessary to survive and be happy, and for wisdom. I'm not saying that you're a terrible human being- just that you might want to get your priorities straight. Pray for a job to support your needs and wants, because a job can also help raise money for clothing, food, and eventually college. God works in mysterious ways, not ways that guarentee that you'll get the exact things that you ask for.

On the other hand:

In what way did you find that sentence to be appropriate? This is a discussion about people's feelings on faith, NOT a conversation in which members are meant to bash one another, especially on subjects that have NOTHING to do with the topic. That was not a rebuttal. How you feel about members is your own business, but don't just insult their intelligence or abilities for the heck of it. Yes, he'll have trouble getting a job because he's 14, not necessarily because of his feelings about social or religious matters.

Not to be rude but I don't see what the big deal is. I wasn't TRYING to insult his intelligence, merely pointing out his naivity. Even you have to admit he says things that are a bit... daft and it's hard to tell if he's kidding or not most of the time. I can't even hold a decent debate with him anymore because he comes up with stuff that's difficult to believe and even more difficult to believe that he actually believes what he says. Then it sends me for a total loop when he gets genuinely offended when people actually disagree with him. I wasn't trying to say he's dumb. Of course he's not, if he can use these boards and write in perfect english. But the boy makes me wonder sometimes if he's alright in the head or if he's just screwing with us all along. I just can't tell anymore!

But if you guys found that offensive I'm sorry that you feel that way but I'm not sorry I said it. Why? Because I'm a human being with opinions that are bound to hurt somebody, somewhere regardless of how nice I try to be. I can't go through life being scared to express my own opinions just so won't offend anyone. The bottom line is that no one has the power to make Bond feel offended but Bond which is what Laz and some others were trying to get at. Perhaps the comment seemed off topic to you, well fair enough. But this isn't the first time he's said weird things and there's only so much I can handle before my nerves wear down. If this is how he reacts in real life then in he's in a world of hurt and he won't always have people like you to protect him. Trust me, I'm the least of his problems here.

And how am I supposed to the reason he can't get a job is because he's only 14? He's never mentioned this before as far as I know and you say so matter-of-factly like it's common knowlege.

[Steel Samurai]

Soap, the point Chik was making was that this thread is for arguing points of faith, not personally attacking other members. In reality, on this site I don't think there should be any biting, opinionated personal comments, even if you think the person deserved it. Your opinion about Bond wasn't asked for, nor was it necessary. IF you really feel the need to criticize him, pm him or talk to him on msn. I'm not necessarily saying Bond didn't deserve it, I'm just saying the comment was purely insulting.

Now, I think there's a fine line as to what to pray for and what not to. For the first thing, bothering God has nothing to do with it. God is omnipresent, which means he is right next to us all the time. He's able to handle everyone in the world's little prayer requests and take care of the big issues at the same time. He cares about every aspect of our lives, from whether we find the TV control to whether we starve the next day. As to what to pray for, I think you can pretty darn well pray for what you want, except you need to remember a few things. First of all, praying for help with things that are against the Bible (eg. God, don't let my wife find out when I cheat on her tomorrow) is just stupid and wrong. Second, Jesus said he would supply all of our needs. Bond, although you might think so, it doesn't sound like a new comp is a real need. You don't need a computer, you don't need to post on LA, you don't need a revolution, heck, you don't need anything past a primary education. The three integral things you need are food, water, air, medical attention, and shelter. People lived quite happily for thousands of years with no more than that. Now, these days there are a few things which you need to get the above, such as a job for adults, but it sounds like you're still living with your parents Bond, so you probably have all you need. Now, wants. Praying for what you want isn't wrong, you simply need to keep in mind that it might not be best for you to have that thing. Sometimes God makes concessions for us, and gives us something we want that isn't the best thing for us, but in the end we always regret it. When I ask for wants, I always ask God to give them to me only if it's his will to do so. So yeah, I hope that settles any questions.

[arunma]

This thread has taken an interesting turn.

OK, first of all, let me say something to Bond. Obviously, all of us here own computers, so it would be hypocritical of me to tell you that it's wrong to buy an expensive computer. Now, praying to God for a computer isn't an intrinsically bad thing. But it is a sign of spiritual immaturity. As you grow in the faith, you'll probably learn to stop praying for material needs, and to instead use prayer as a means of communicating with God. Prayer is not a time for you to ask God to give you stuff; it's a way for you to spend time with God. And I'm sure that as you grow in the faith, you'll learn this.

The Christian religion emphasizes detachment from the material things of the world. Your only attachment to the world should be your relationships with other people. God does not bestow material on people who give him money. God has no need of money. When you tithe or give other offerings to God, you are expressing your dependence on him. He will provide for you, but he will not make you rich. It says in the Bible that the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. The Bible also severely condemns the rich. You don't want to be rich, because the Bible portrays most rich people as wicked men. If your faith in God is based on his ability to give you things, then you've misplaced your faith. And that's bad.

Now to everyone else, maybe you should lay off Bond a little. The fact that his parents have money problems indicates that he probably isn't a spoiled, rich white kid from South Carolina.

[Bond Extreme]

Ok now. Soap I'm sorry if you think I'm ill in the head. Now online it's a bit harder to express my thoughts and opinions. When I'm actually talking to someone it goes a lot smoother. I'm very spiritual in the Lord also. I would have to say I've grown A LOT in the past years. I always ask God for strength. I ask to make the right decissions. I ask for a great night sleep. I ask for a good day the next day. Don't worry about me being spiritual with God.

But anyway God will let me have a computer whenever he feels like I need it.

You know some things in my life I can't belive what God has done for me. Like a few years ago in school I had a spelling test. Yes... still those dumb spelling tests. But anyway I hardly even studied for it. Yes I did regret it when I was taking the test. But I prayed to God that I would somehow pass this. And would you belive what I got..... A 92% I couldn't beleive it. After that I just praised God for the rest of the day.

So yes I'm very spiritual with God.

[spunky-monkey]

Oops, I haven't been online for a while and this is what happens...

Originally Posted by Bond Extreme  
"God please give me a miracle to own this computer."

First of all, please don't take this the wrong way ok? Now there's a difference between need and want, materialism coupled with desires is exactly what God hates so much (unless of course you're desire is to reach God). Then again I've been rather selfish too...I once asked God for Peace of Mind, naturally, I didn't get it.
But I bet you if I had a tiny bit of Faith, I would recieve peace of mind BUT since I only have enough faith to believe in God, then I won't get what I need most...

Originally Posted by Paladin Anthony  
but everytime I go to a church anymore... I feel like people are putting on an act. Most aren't there for the reason they should be...

Good point. That's how I feel about the whole thing now and why I stopped going in the first place...too many snobs I guess.

Originally Posted by arunma
It says in the Bible that the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.

Even though Jesus himself said that, I'd have to disagree. Money is merely material, the root of all evil is Power. Man desires power more than anything else.
One could say that Satan is the root of all evil, because he created 'Evil' itself by rejecting God and befalling Mankind.
Satan desires power, what use is money to him anyway? He wants to be God, and that is true power...

[Alakhriveion]

Even though Jesus himself said that, I'd have to disagree. Money is merely material, the root of all evil is Power. Man desires power more than anything else.

I don't know. We also like sex, digital watches, hamburgers... there's a whole slew of things people would take before power and responsibility.

One could say that Satan is the root of all evil, because he created 'Evil' itself by rejecting God and befalling Mankind.

No. No, one could not.

Satan desires power, what use is money to him anyway? He wants to be God, and that is true power...

Back this up? You give the guy too much credit. He's as much a part as God's creation as everyone else. You're thinking of Milton's Satan, not the Bible's.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

I don't know. We also like sex, digital watches, hamburgers... there's a whole slew of things people would take before power and responsibility.
No.  No, one could not.
Back this up? You give the guy too much credit. He's as much a part as God's creation as everyone else. You're thinking of Milton's Satan, not the Bible's.

Yeah and Milton's Satan didn't reject God so much as he refused to bow down to humanity and acknowledge them as superior to him.

[Alakhriveion]

Milton's Satan is the rebel. The Bible's Satan is, well, different.

[Nevermind]

Even though Jesus himself said that, I'd have to disagree. Money is merely material, the root of all evil is Power. Man desires power more than anything else.
One could say that Satan is the root of all evil, because he created 'Evil' itself by rejecting God and befalling Mankind.
Satan desires power, what use is money to him anyway? He wants to be God, and that is true power...

If someone has a desire for power with noble intentions, are they still wrong in wanting such power?

[spunky-monkey]

Originally Posted by Alakhriveion
No. No, one could not.

Satan was the second power under God yeah? In his pride he wanted to be greater than God so he became evil itself, but he was no match for God and Michael then banished him from Heaven. The New Testament mentions all this...

Originally Posted by Wolf_ODonnell
Milton's Satan didn't reject God so much as he refused to bow down to humanity and acknowledge them as superior to him.

What??? Satan is, or was, an Angel...everyone knows that Angels serve God and only God, and we must also never bow to Angels, only to God again.

Even if you don't take my word for it besides humanity was little more than animal back then as well.

Originally Posted by Lazurukeel
If someone has a desire for power with noble intentions, are they still wrong in wanting such power?

God didn't design us that way...Power has and always will corrupt man, notice that the good people never have true power, only the wicked?

[Nevermind]

That depends on what you think true power is. I dunno about you, but I think we were designed for far more use than we have now. Power does not always corrupt, and it is not guaranteed that one with power will be wicked.

What??? Satan is, or was, an Angel...everyone knows that Angels serve God and only God, and we must also never bow to Angels, only to God again.

No, not everyone does, and not everyone thinks so.

[spunky-monkey]

Maybe, however if even a good person had great power, wicked people would soon come and kill him for it.
True Power is very dangerous because it is on level with God. Could you imagine that with a wave of your hand you could kill billions just out of anger? It must be really terrible to have God-like powers...

[Nevermind]

Well, then, it depends on whether you would be benevolent, or malevolent. Can you imagine curing billions of people with a wave of your hand? Terrible, terrible power...

[Alakhriveion]

[quote name='RICKY]Satan was the second power under God yeah? In his pride he wanted to be greater than God so he became evil itself' date=' but he was no match for God and Michael then banished him from Heaven. The New Testament mentions all this...[quote'] No, no it does not. That's all from "Paradise Lost."



[quote]What??? Satan is, or was, an Angel...everyone knows that Angels serve God and only God,[/quote] Stop there. Good so far, and Satan is a what again? [quote]and we must also never bow to Angels, only to God again.[/quote] Word. But that was never called in to question. You misread WO'D's post.

[quote]Even if you don't take my word for it besides humanity was little more than animal back then as well.[/quote]Support that!




[quote]God didn't design us that way...Power has and always will corrupt man, notice that the good people never have true power, only the wicked?[/quote] It's getting better all the ti-i-i-ime.

[Showsni]

Pray for a computer, then when you get it go and give it to a homeless person.

Of course, they won't be able to plug it in... Maybe you should just go and buy them food and shelter instead of a computer.

And the Bible says: "The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil." Not all evils, and not the only root.

[arunma]

The most important question is this: if you don't get the computer (or whatever else you prayed for), will you still have faith in God? It's very dangerous to place your faith in objects instead of in God. That is idolatry, and it's no different than worshiping a statue with an elephant head.

[Korhend]

God didn't design us that way...Power has and always will corrupt man, notice that the good people never have true power, only the wicked?

NOPE, HAVEN'T NOTICED.

[Korhend]

You know some things in my life I can't belive what God has done for me. Like a few years ago in school I had a spelling test. Yes... still those dumb spelling tests. But anyway I hardly even studied for it. Yes I did regret it when I was taking the test. But I prayed to God that I would somehow pass this. And would you belive what I got..... A 92% I couldn't beleive it. After that I just praised God for the rest of the day.

So yes I'm very spiritual with God.

You need to read Erich Fromm my friend.

[Doopliss]

You know some things in my life I can't belive what God has done for me. Like a few years ago in school I had a spelling test. Yes... still those dumb spelling tests. But anyway I hardly even studied for it. Yes I did regret it when I was taking the test. But I prayed to God that I would somehow pass this. And would you belive what I got..... A 92% I couldn't beleive it. After that I just praised God for the rest of the day.

So yes I'm very spiritual with God.

Bond Extreme, you are simply losing completely the point of how god is supposed to help people. According to religion, he will just give you things that you can't get by yourself, but won't satisfy your caprices, it would be really bad to get things you don't deserve. I'm atheist, but I do understand what religion is about.

I recommend you to think more carefully what you post because you haven't been holding a serious discussion.

[spunky-monkey]

Originally Posted by Lazurukeel
Can you imagine curing billions of people with a wave of your hand?

People will become ill all over again in this world, and worse. People don't need a doctor, they need God.

Originally Posted by Alakhriveion  
Word. But that was never called in to question. You misread WO'D's post.

Dude, I've misread nothing. Satan never bowed to us, or was ever told to (read WO'D's post!) because Angels serve God. When Satan then became the Supreme embodiment of evil and archenemy of God, he now wants us to bow to him...He even wanted Jesus to bow to him in the New Testament, and because the Father and the Son are one, that's basically the same as telling God to bow to Satan as well...What part of this is so hard to understand?

I don't need to support anything because you yourself already know where the info comes from, I've never even read 'Paradise Lost'...is it any good?

Originally Posted by Korhend  
NOPE, HAVEN'T NOTICED.

I think you got leadership confused with 'True Power' here. BUT then if you are taking what I said as a ‘political’ statement, then that’s what people define true power as. Now, from my perspective, true power is equivalent to that of God.

[Koji]

If God is omnipresent and omniscient, then he already knows what you need, what you want, and what you've done to deserve those things. Praying is redundant. Besides, God is in a plane beyond time and space. He already knows everything that has happened and is going to happen. So if you pray for God to give you something - it doesn't matter because God already knows a) that you were going to pray for it and B) if he's going to give it to you. So, basically, hoping God will do anything for you is redundant due to the fact that everything is predetermined.

[spunky-monkey]

So...we are wrong to ask God for anything.

I think you're right, most of the things we ask for aren't really important, nor do we deserve anything. I know God is outside time, but why create people when you already know the outcomes of what they'll do, and then punish them for being victims of predetermined fate?
And to add insult to injury we're told we have no faith, BUT God doesn't need faith because he is God, he already knows everything.

Something's not adding up here...

[Nevermind]

Because pre-determination and free will do not go well together.

People will become ill all over again in this world, and worse. People don't need a doctor, they need God.

A person curing billions of people with a wave of their hand....would not be a doctor. You were talking about power equal to God's, and said that we, as humans, would use it for wicked purposes. However, someone curing billions of people with their godly powers would be a little less than...wicked, wouldn't you say?

And if they become ill...well, what would it take for another wave of one's hand?

[spunky-monkey]

^You're right, we already talked about that in the 'free will' thread.

We are controlled by emotions, if you had that kinda of power and someone angered you, you'd so easily destroy him.

And if they become ill...well, what would it take for another wave of one's hand?

It's never that simple, evil will take different forms, eventually you'd have to destroy it, and guess what? you'd become what you hate most. That's why God hasn't done anything about our suffering.

[Nevermind]

You could so easily destroy him, but that doesn't mean you WOULD.

I don't see how it isn't that simple. There is a problem, and you do all you can to fix it. Another problem crops up, and you repeat the process. You deal with them as they come.

Although, do tell me how one would become what one hates most if they were to overcome evil? Does destroying evil make one evil?

[spunky-monkey]

Taking care of problems without stopping them at the source is not good enough. BUT there's a logical reason for all this...

Does destroying evil make one evil?

Yes. That's why God will not to anything to Satan. God tried this with us in the great flood of the Old Testament and it didn't work, evil returned again and again. God now tries to win each of us over with love and compassion instead.

[Koji]

Love and compassion and the threat that if we don't do what we're told, we'll burn in eternal hellfire.

And honestly, I do not believe that having ultimate power would make you evil. A great man once said "With great power comes great responsibility." If some one who was responsible enough had the power, I think we'd be okay. What's funny is that Jesus abused his powers as well. The Apocrypha (books taken out of the Bible because Christianity didn't feel the were integral to message of the Bible) tells one story of Jesus when he was about 12 or 13. He was walking through a crowded marketplace when a man bumped into him. He looked at the man and told him "You will never get to where you are going," and the man dropped dead in the street.