98 replies to this topic

[Doopliss]

La Catrina, how do you explain the mysterious return of the Triforce to the sacred Realm? I suppose there could be some kind of returning power, but if that were so then the peices of the broken triforce of courage could simply have all returned and become one again. Unless of course you think this could only happen if the three complete triforce peices are brought together, in which case that makes sense, though there's no evidence to suggest that it is so.

And Wolf, I find that the multiple timeline makes a ton more sense if you simply say that time splits after OoT, doesn't have anything to do with whether or not the triforce is split as far as I can see.

Of course speculation is needed here. An idea I have is that the Triforce went to the Sacred Realm to wait for a new master after TWW. I think Ganon didn't touch it because he wanted to kill Zelda and Link so it wouldn't split again.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Man, this thread is long. Here's what I think, though. Someone said that the Golden Realm became the Dark World when Ganondorf touched the Triforce in OoT, and I think that's true. Or, at least, it began to transform then. I mean, Ganon with his evil influence was able to turn Hyrule into a realm of evil, certainly he can do worse to something so easily molded as the Sacred Realm. Then, you lock him inside the thing, so he has free rein to make the whole place evil.

Also, I like to think that the triforce of courage was seperated from Link when he travelled to Termina, and it returned to the Sacred Realm thereafter. How the triforce of wisdom got there would take a bit of speculation.

If we go by a single timeline and put TWW in between OOT/LTTP, then we all know that when Link left the land that made him legend the ToC split into eight pieces and was hidden in chests. Remember those pieces had to found in the TWW. So, the ToC did not go to the Sacred Realm after he went to Termina, as you say Moonman....it was actually hidden away in chests.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

If we go by a single timeline and put TWW in between OOT/LTTP, then we all know that when Link left the land that made him legend the ToC split into eight pieces and was hidden in chests. Remember those pieces had to found in the TWW. So, the ToC did not go to the Sacred Realm after he went to Termina, as you say Moonman....it was actually hidden away in chests.

Well, wouldn't that make it impossible for the Ganon in ALttP to be alive, after having a sword stuck through his head? Granted, he had a sword stabbed through his head in OoT but never became stone... and...

Why on Earth would Ganon be petrified upon being stabbed in the head in WW, but not petrified in OoT when stabbed through the head? Does it have something to do with the Triforce of Courage, you think?

And surely if Ganon managed to escape the Dark Realm in WW, then surely he'd be able to escape the Dark World in ALttP without the help of Agahnim? Plus, if WW does take place in between OoT and ALttP, that implies the Seal that was put on him was broken twice... once in WW and once (partially) by Agahnim in ALttP... which kinda confuses things, don't you think?

[Tri-Enforcer]

@ Wolfe

Were you contesting my quote or were you adding on to it?

We don't know for certain from the TWW backstory if Ganon had help escaping the Sacred Realm or if he did it on his own--the details of which were vague--actually irrelevant.

Also, why do people keep saying that after Ganon was stoned his next transition was into the Sacred Realm/Dark World? For all we know Ganon was killed by that, or at least sealed by the stone--but not instant trip to the Sacred Realm. With that said...how does Ganon end up back in the Sacred Realm at the start of LTTP, with the full Triforce in his possession?

Gannon was stabbed in the head in OOT? I recall Link unleashing a series of crucial blows to Ganon with the MS. If Link did stab Gannon in the head in OOT...he didn't leave the the sword embedded in Gannon's head. Maybe the sword has to remain in Gannon's head in order for him to be petrified?

[SOAP]

I don't know if it's signifigant or not but didn't that jewel thingy on his forehead break when that happened?

Also, even if that did kill Ganon (or at least petrified him for the time being) we have at least twoother games where Ganon was revived and then imprisoned.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Well, there's only one game he was actually shown being imprisoned in the Sacred Realm...and that was OOT. The only other the game that at least says that he was actually revived or reincarnated was in FSA, as for AoL/Oracles the resurrection is unsucessful.

If we put TWW in between OOT/LTTP...there would have to be an explanation connecting the start of LTTP to the ending in TWW...such as how did Ganon get back to the Sacred Realm, with the full Triforce in his possession?

[SOAP]

Um, why can't LoZ come between TWW and LttP?

[Wolf O'Donnell]

@ Wolfe

Firstly, where'd that extra 'E' come from?

Were you contesting my quote or were you adding on to it?

I'm afraid I can't remember now.

Also, why do people keep saying that after Ganon was stoned his next transition was into the Sacred Realm/Dark World? For all we know Ganon was killed by that, or at least sealed by the stone--but not instant trip to the Sacred Realm. With that said...how does Ganon end up back in the Sacred Realm at the start of LTTP, with the full Triforce in his possession?

Stoned? Stoned is when you have rocks thrown at you. Stoned is when you get high on drugs. Petrified is when something is turned into stone.

Gannon was stabbed in the head in OOT? I recall Link unleashing a series of crucial blows to Ganon with the MS. If Link did stab Gannon in the head in OOT...he didn't leave the the sword embedded in Gannon's head. Maybe the sword has to remain in Gannon's head in order for him to be petrified?

I remember that well. Yes, he was stabbed in the head. In those last blows that Link gave him, the last blow sent the Master Sword plunging straight into the pig Ganon's head or somewhere close to it.

And no, Link didn't leave it embedded in his head, but he left it in as long as Link did in TWW. The only difference was that Link in OOT pulled it out, and Ganon became petrified just before Link could pull it out so he didn't.

What I'm saying is that if TWW does come in between OoT and ALttP, then there's the headache of how Ganon became unpetrified (how the Master Sword got into the Lost Forest), managed to find his way back into the Sacred Realm and take the entire Triforce whole without it breaking and couldn't find his way back out again...

When clearly, Ganon managed to escape the Sacred Realm twice... once after he was allowed entrance by Link pulling the MS out of the Pedestal, and the second time in TWW's backstory.

You'd think that after escaping it twice, he'd be able to find his way out a third time.

[SOAP]

That's why I'm saying, why can't LoZ come between TWW and ALttP? In LoZ, it doesn't talk about a dark world or anything. Just that Ganondorf was stuck in some "Underworld" and escaped. Underworld could be the old Hyrule that was sunk beneath the ocean and Overworld could be that divine collaboration of the Great Sea islands into that "One big forest" the Deku Tree was talking about. Going with that theory, Ganon could've unpetrified himself just like he unfroze himself when he was frozen in time in TWW's backstory. He then would've built an army underground and waited till the time was right to take over Hyrule again.

[MikePetersSucks]

Woah, this is going to be hard! >.B) a) The Triforce, um...I'm not sure.
Single-Um...perhaps the Triforce was sent there during the time between TWW and LTTP? Like, maybe the Four Sword (i'm assuming for the sake of argument that FS comes inbetween) Acted as a wormhole to the Sacred Realm, since the Sage's Seal was still in effect, the Sword, which could be a creation of the Sages, acted in conjunction with the Seal and sent Ganon back, and Thinking that he was still in the Sword, they thought that if he ever escaped, the Triforce would be vulnerable, so they hunted down the Triforce and sent it the Sacred Realm?
Multi-(I'm not a supporter of Multi, but It's an intriquing idea, and I'll humor it just incase) Perhaps in the OOT Past, Young Link was sent to before Ganondorf attacked and warned the Princess, Imprisoning War happened, and Ganondorf was sealed into the Sacred Realm, where the Triforce was never split?
B) Now how come the Triforce didn't split? well, if TWW happened before hand, we could say that after being sealed in Old Hyrule for so long, he thought about things and became Balanced? I mean, you don't have to be GOOD to be BALANCED. Of course, either way, We take into account the Sage's Seal. The Master Sword is said to repel the Triforce's Magic. We know this for a fact. the Sword was made by the Sages. the SAME PEOPLE who made the Seal. Why can't we believe that the Seal stopped the Triforce from splitting? Sure it could of gone to one of the people in the Dark World, but are any of them worthy? I think not.
3) When Ganon turned the SR into Dark World, why didn't the Triforce split on him, like it did in OOT? At the start of LTTP Ganon has the unified the Triforce already in his possesion.

C) The Triforce granted his wish. Thusly we already know he was worthy of it now (Sure it didn't complete the whole wish, but it TRIED! which is more than we can say the last time he tried to get it)

4) If you place LTTP sometime after TWW, how did Ganon end up back in the Sacred Realm, he was stoned...possibly killed? We don't know if by default whenever you kill Ganon he goes to the Sacred Realm...he has to be sealed for that...not killed...canon shows this.

D)Oi, look above, I am not repeating myself.

[Doopliss]

Well, wouldn't that make it impossible for the Ganon in ALttP to be alive, after having a sword stuck through his head? Granted, he had a sword stabbed through his head in OoT but never became stone... and...

Why on Earth would Ganon be petrified upon being stabbed in the head in WW, but not petrified in OoT when stabbed through the head? Does it have something to do with the Triforce of Courage, you think?

And surely if Ganon managed to escape the Dark Realm in WW, then surely he'd be able to escape the Dark World in ALttP without the help of Agahnim? Plus, if WW does take place in between OoT and ALttP, that implies the Seal that was put on him was broken twice... once in WW and once (partially) by Agahnim in ALttP... which kinda confuses things, don't you think?

I think he became covered in stone because he didn't have the Triforce of Power in his possession, unwise OoT.

Well, now, I don't see why you say that he scaped from the Sacred Realm in TWW, we never see him doing that.

I think the e is a mistake, of course it can mean other things.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Woah, this is going to be hard! >.<

1) In OOT Ganon didn't couldn't even make his wish...the Triforce split once he touched it--everyone keeps saying that's when the Sacred Realm became the Dark World, but Ganon couldn't get his freakin' wish off!

So, you're going to ignore the fact that one of the Sages has said that the Sacred Realm has become an Evil Realm.

Don't forget that in ALttP, Ganon's wish wasn't complete either and he had the whole Triforce. If his wish was complete, he would have ruled Hyrule as well as the Dark World, or so the game says.

2) Ganon does not have the united Triforce at the end of OOT, he only has ToP. So how did a unified Triforce end up back into the Sacred Realm/Dark World in LTTP, and how the heck did Ganon get ahold of it?
 
B) a) The Triforce, um...I'm not sure.
Single-Um...perhaps the Triforce was sent there during the time between TWW and LTTP? Like, maybe the Four Sword (i'm assuming for the sake of argument that FS comes inbetween) Acted as a wormhole to the Sacred Realm, since the Sage's Seal was still in effect, the Sword, which could be a creation of the Sages, acted in conjunction with the Seal and sent Ganon back, and Thinking that he was still in the Sword, they thought that if he ever escaped, the Triforce would be vulnerable, so they hunted down the Triforce and sent it the Sacred Realm?

I'm sorry, I don't have FS because of a lack of friends that like to play videogames. Why are you saying that Ganon became sealed in the Four Sword?

Multi-(I'm not a supporter of Multi, but It's an intriquing idea, and I'll humor it just incase) Perhaps in the OOT Past, Young Link was sent to before Ganondorf attacked and warned the Princess, Imprisoning War happened, and Ganondorf was sealed into the Sacred Realm, where the Triforce was never split?

Well, a Multiple Timeline can solve the problem completely by stating that ALttP and TWW are in different dimensions. Please don't treat the Multi as just one Theory. Even the Single Timeline Theory has more than one variant.

B) Now how come the Triforce didn't split? well, if TWW happened before hand, we could say that after being sealed in Old Hyrule for so long, he thought about things and became Balanced?

So, if he becomes balanced the Triforce pieces will immediately be separated from their current owners? If it were that simple, I think Ganon would have done it a long time ago and in TWW too.

I mean, you don't have to be GOOD to be BALANCED. Of course, either way, We take into account the Sage's Seal. The Master Sword is said to repel the Triforce's Magic. We know this for a fact.

I don't. Where's the proof for that?

the Sword was made by the Sages. the SAME PEOPLE who made the Seal. Why can't we believe that the Seal stopped the Triforce from splitting? Sure it could of gone to one of the people in the Dark World, but are any of them worthy? I think not.

Okay, now you lost me.

Well, now, I don't see why you say that he scaped from the Sacred Realm in TWW, we never see him doing that.

It's kinda implied from the backstory we're given as an introduction. Don't you remember the story? The backstory was kinda suggestive that this Ganon in TWW was the same Ganon as OoT.

The Ganon in OoT was sealed in the Evil Realm and I remember somewhere in the game, one of the Sages saying that the Sacred Realm has become the Evil Realm because of Ganon.

[MikePetersSucks]

Bulmaro, for one, the sword when straight through his brain. atleast half the sword went into his head. I'm pretty sure his body is DEAD!

Wolf...
1) Firstly, I said that The Triforce doesn't have to fully grant his wish to stay together. look at LTTP, I haven't played OOT, so I didn't know that part, hmm...since Rauru was one of the original sages, would his presence even effect the Sacred Realm? anyway, If he doesn't, the Evil Realm that was created from Ganon's presence could just be a mirror of his heart, while the Dark World from LTTP is a world he controls. I mean, it never said that the heart of the first person who enters the Sacred Realm controls it. It just reflects it. Besides, you can't exactly control your heart

2)In the ending of FSA, the Four Links and the 7 Maidens seal Ganon inside the sword.

3) I'm not treating the Multi idea as just one theory. I'm just using an example of what I believed what might be ASSUMING that a Multi idea can be possible o.o

4) Um, the LTTP handbook O.o it says right there that the Sages created the Sword and no one could weild it, and then they chucked Ganon in the Sacred Realm and Sealed it. Logically, if the Sword is able to deflect Triforce Magic (as that was why it was made) It would be logical that a Seal made by the same old dudes could do it.

5) most of that I just explained above. about the worthiness part. Obviously all the people there are greedy or something, Or just wanted to see the Triforce. I hardly think any of them are going to be Keepers of Wisdom or Jurors of Courage.

[Hero of Winds]

Um, why can't LoZ come between TWW and LttP?

It can. That's my theory, btw.

Bulmaro, for one, the sword when straight through his brain. atleast half the sword went into his head. I'm pretty sure his body is DEAD!

There's still no proof that the sword killed him. Remember, Ganon got stabbed in the head at the end of OoT, and all it did was weaken him enough for the Seven Sages to seal him.

[MikePetersSucks]

Well, he was in a demon form when that happened in OOT, and I'm sure Demons aren't so vulnerable like that. but come on! in TWW the sword is shoved in his head during his human form, and in OOT only part of the tip goes in his head, but in TWW, it goes almost all the way to the hilt! Ganon's body died right there.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

2)In the ending of FSA, the Four Links and the 7 Maidens seal Ganon inside the sword.

I see, so what you're saying is that FSA might somehow be between TWW and LTTP? Am I correct, because for some strange reason I find your posts very confusing.

3) I'm not treating the Multi idea as just one theory. I'm just using an example of what I believed what might be ASSUMING that a Multi idea can be possible o.o

I find this sentence to be very confusing.

4) Um, the LTTP handbook O.o it says right there that the Sages created the Sword and no one could weild it, and then they chucked Ganon in the Sacred Realm and Sealed it. Logically, if the Sword is able to deflect Triforce Magic (as that was why it was made) It would be logical that a Seal made by the same old dudes could do it.

Oh yes, I checked the manual. Been a while since I've played LTTP or read the manual.

The thing is, what on Earth has the MS got to do with this argument? In fact, what was the original argument?

5) most of that I just explained above. about the worthiness part. Obviously all the people there are greedy or something, Or just wanted to see the Triforce. I hardly think any of them are going to be Keepers of Wisdom or Jurors of Courage.

Nope, I'm sorry, for some strange reason I can't follow your thread of logic. I'm not sure if it's me, whether it's late or whether my mind's been on something else everytime I read your threads but... well, I just can't follow your argument. Perhaps its the way you format your arguments with numbered points. I mean, what is Point 5 a rebuttal of exactly?

Well, he was in a demon form when that happened in OOT, and I'm sure Demons aren't so vulnerable like that. but come on! in TWW the sword is shoved in his head during his human form, and in OOT only part of the tip goes in his head, but in TWW, it goes almost all the way to the hilt! Ganon's body died right there.

Well, I may agree with your first point but your second point about the Sword not going in as deep as irrelevant. The MS still goes into his skull and quite a considerable amount. Not all the way to the hilt, but it still goes in considerably, maybe severing major arteries or veins.

Still, I remember seeing this picture of a guy with a pole through his head. (It was at some Medical course). He managed to survive, but he did have the help of a hospital.

Ganon kinda doesn't have that help. In OOT he only has the ToP. In TWW, he has nothing.

EDIT: Oh, and I apologise in advance for any thing in this post that you might take offence at. Please accept my sincerest apologies if you are offended or angered by anything you read in this post.

[Doopliss]

It's kinda implied from the backstory we're given as an introduction. Don't you remember the story? The backstory was kinda suggestive that this Ganon in TWW was the same Ganon as OoT.

The Ganon in OoT was sealed in the Evil Realm and I remember somewhere in the game, one of the Sages saying that the Sacred Realm has become the Evil Realm because of Ganon.

I was talking about the period after The Wind Waker.

[MikePetersSucks]

I see, so what you're saying is that FSA might somehow be between TWW and LTTP? Am I correct, because for some strange reason I find your posts very confusing.

Well, yea, the theory is possible, because the way Minish Cap is developing, that's what I'm starting to believe.

I find this sentence to be very confusing.

Well, what I meant to say was I don't really believe in the multi-timeline theory, and games have done that before (Chrono series) so If the multi timeline was infact, the truth, I wouldn't be too upset, but it would take the fun out of single timelines.

Oh yes, I checked the manual. Been a while since I've played LTTP or read the manual.

The original argument had something to do with when Ganon corrupted the Sacred Realm, but I think we solved that and moved on to this somehow o.o

Nope, I'm sorry, for some strange reason I can't follow your thread of logic. I'm not sure if it's me, whether it's late or whether my mind's been on something else everytime I read your threads but... well, I just can't follow your argument. Perhaps its the way you format your arguments with numbered points. I mean, what is Point 5 a rebuttal of exactly?

Before I figured out how to use the quote tags, I was using them to break down my arguments and refer to each part of your posts. And what I'm trying to say is the manual of LTTP said that the Sages formed the MS, which can repel Triforce magic, and the Seal was made by the same group of people, so logically the Seal should block Triforce magic, right? keeping it from splitting, since I both think that Ganondorf found the errors he made on his first attempt and obtained a balanced heart (but he's still evil) and I also think that none of the people in the Dark World are worthy of the Triforce. o.o assuming it did split.

Well, I may agree with your first point but your second point about the Sword not going in as deep as irrelevant. The MS still goes into his skull and quite a considerable amount. Not all the way to the hilt, but it still goes in considerably, maybe severing major arteries or veins.

No offense taken XD but how is my second point irrevelent? the sword in OOT only went in a tad bit, and Ganon is kinda fat in that form, so yea. But in TWW, the sword goes all the way up the Triforce insignia. that's pretty deep, and it went through his BRAIN! I'm pretty sure that body died; the petrification of his body could be an effect of the sword's Bane of Evil thing. o.o so yea...And I guess the Sage's Seal might of kicked in when his spirit was vulnerable, or he reincarnated for the events of FS. either way he's getting shoved back in without a new seal.

[MikePetersSucks]

Yea, we also take into account that the sword looks like it went through his brain and into his spinal cord, and that the sword repels evil like Hellfire. I think he's dead, dude.

[Tri-Enforcer]

That's why I'm saying, why can't LoZ come between TWW and ALttP? In LoZ, it doesn't talk about a dark world or anything. Just that Ganondorf was stuck in some "Underworld" and escaped. Underworld could be the old Hyrule that was sunk beneath the ocean and Overworld could be that divine collaboration of the Great Sea islands into that "One big forest" the Deku Tree was talking about. Going with that theory, Ganon could've unpetrified himself just like he unfroze himself when he was frozen in time in TWW's backstory. He then would've built an army underground and waited till the time was right to take over Hyrule again.

Then why is the Master Sword at least needed to help defeat Ganon in LTTP, but not in LoZ, if you place it before LTTP? Yes, I understand the whole combination of the silver arrows...but the MS and silver arrow combo doesn't apply to LoZ (there's no MS). From your theory it appears at one point the MS is not needed to help repel evil (Ganon)...but then later on, it's needed again?

Also, that doesn't explain how Ganon got into the Sacred Realm at the start of LTTP with the united Triforce--Ganon was killed not sealed in LoZ.

Someone mentioned FSA coming in between TWW and LTTP to explain how Ganon got back to the Dark World with the whole Triforce. The FS is not the Sacred Realm...it is a seal within itself. We see through out FSA that there are several portals to the Dark World, it wouldn't be wise to send Ganon there with so many opened portals.... And if Zelda and the maidens didn't know this, Ganon would not have to wait around for Aghanim to help unseal him. He'd simply waltz in and out (with the proper items) as he pleases.

[MikePetersSucks]

Well yea, I know that Air. I mean that that body died, not sealed in stone -.- and Enforcer, LTTP had portals too, but they were one way portals, I think it's the same way in FSA.

[SOAP]

Then why is the Master Sword at least needed to help defeat Ganon in LTTP, but not in LoZ, if you place it before LTTP? Yes, I understand the whole combination of the silver arrows...but the MS and silver arrow combo doesn't apply to LoZ (there's no MS). From your theory it appears at one point the MS is not needed to help repel evil (Ganon)...but then later on, it's needed again?

Not unneeded. Just unaccounted for. The MS was still stuck in Ganon's head which was currently beneath the dark depths of the ocean. It was then lost after the sea was drain and Ganon revived himself and by that time barely anyone remembered what ever became of it. So Link had to resort to other methods of destroying Ganon. The MS is not the end-all be-all of all dispeller of evil. IT doesn't even have that good of a track record! If anything, the Light/Silver Arrows seem to be the key to defeating Ganon.

Anyways, Link uses the Silver Arrows to defeat Ganon once more and a new Master Sword is created, this time with a red hilt. Also there's the off-chance that the Master Sword and the White Sword were one and the same the whole time.



Also, that doesn't explain how Ganon got into the Sacred Realm at the start of LTTP with the united Triforce--Ganon was killed not sealed in LoZ.

Ah yes but we also have games where he's revived like in the Oracles and FSA.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Let's face it, Ganon gets sealed in the Dark Realm or in a Sword quite a bit, doesn't he? I mean, you'd think he'd learn his lesson after so many times.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Not unneeded. Just unaccounted for. The MS was still stuck in Ganon's head which was currently beneath the dark depths of the ocean. It was then lost after the sea was drain and Ganon revived himself and by that time barely anyone remembered what ever became of it. So Link had to resort to other methods of destroying Ganon. The MS is not the end-all be-all of all dispeller of evil. IT doesn't even have that good of a track record! If anything, the Light/Silver Arrows seem to be the key to defeating Ganon.

Anyways, Link uses the Silver Arrows to defeat Ganon once more and a new Master Sword is created, this time with a red hilt. Also there's the off-chance that the Master Sword and the White Sword were one and the same the whole time.

http://www.zeldacentral.net/images/zelda1/.../whitesword.gif
 
Ah yes but we also have games where he's revived like in the Oracles and FSA.

If we go by your theory...then that's one too many events that are unaccounted for in the LTTP backstory and game itself.

1) Ganon returns/ ravages Hyrule; 2) the Gods flood Hyrule to stop him; 3) the events of the wind waker; 4) the lands reconnecting or whatever; 5) a new Kindom being established; 6) the events of LoZ and FSA; 7) and Ganon ending up back in the Sacred Realm with the united Triforce...

That's too much vital and I mean really vital info that LTTP misses out on if we go by your far shot theory. I could understand if some of it becomes obscured, but all of it--that's ridiculous! Some of those events were just as important as the Imprisoning War! That's too much pertinent history that was skipped over. I don't buy it.

[MikePetersSucks]

Yea, Mario, even though you are an intelligent poster and your a respectable person, I must also add that your theory is...messed up. Especially since it's set in stone that AOL comes after LOZ

[Tri-Enforcer]

yeah you're telling me

[Doopliss]

Yea, we also take into account that the sword looks like it went through his brain and into his spinal cord, and that the sword repels evil like Hellfire. I think he's dead, dude.

It's impossible to know if he died right now, propably some of the future games will mention something about it. I don't really think he died, because in OoT Link pinned the sword in his head and he survived (well he took it out, but I'm sure it touched his brain). Plus, we are only sure bout the Silver Arrows's accuracy, the Master Sword has never killed Ganon, why would it do it now?