145 replies to this topic

[SOAP]

The Triforce of Courage was split into eight shards shortly after Ocarina of Time and remained that way up until The Wind Waker.

Hey, if people can ignore the fact that no hero was ever found in the IW and claim OoT is ALttP's backstory I don't see it's so hard to imagine that possibly that all the pre-TWW Links were thought of as the same Link, but something happened to the last one and the ToC was shattered.

Also, it said "It is said," which usually means "That's what everyone thinks happened."

[Fyxe]

OoT was intended to be ALttP's backstory. That's was the whole point. We got to see Ganondorf as a human before we witnessed his transformation into Ganon, we got to see how he discovered the entrance to the Sacred Realm, and we got to see how he was sealed by the Seven Sages. It's that simple.

The backstory of ALttP is still just a legend.

I'm sorry, I'm still going to have to stick with the designer's plans on this. Ganondorf got the Triforce and then got sealed in the Sacred Realm by Seven Sages. Ganondorf can't place his mitts on the Triforce for the first time... Twice.

Seriously, the simple answer is almost always the most likely. I think back to the time before WW's release. Back to when there were five games. Most people would accept OoT as the Imprisoning War. Some of the game designers themselves have said that was what it was, along with it being implied in official pre-release material.

[SOAP]

But there's more games to consider now and old theories must re-evaluated or else they no longer serve any purpose to anyone except those who cling too tightly to the past. I don't know about you but I think in the present, where there's more than twice that amount of games.

[Fyxe]

Except of course you assume that by releasing new games Nintendo is constantly looking back and thinking 'ok, we'll change the backstory here and this game can be the Imprisoning War and now with WW we'll move the IW about a bit'...

When, in truth, it's more like 'ok, we're making a new Zelda game, I think we should put it after OoT, aye? Aye'.

Just because they release new games doesn't mean they instantly start screwing randomly with the plots of the old games. They really don't think about it that much.

I'm not clinging to the past, I'm just not willing to mess about with what was once a fairly obvious order just because Nintendo is releasing new games without considering *every single timeline issue*, which they clearly do not.

[SOAP]

This coming from the same person who accuses Nintendo of forgetting the Koopalings ever existed.

Sometimes, Nintendo changes their minds. Unless specifically stated in an actual game or manual, Nintendo can later go and take another approach if the old way is too limiting or new games make it almost impossible to work. If it's just word from the creators alone outside the game, then it's not set in stone and the creators can always go back and say something completely different. They have done this in the past before.

[Doopliss]

Crazy Penguin, that doesn't prove anything, anyone could have written the scroll.

[Mad Scrub]

Originally Posted by Mario Jr
This coming from the same person who accuses Nintendo of forgetting the Koopalings ever existed.

Are you referring to Iggy, Larry, Lemmy, Morton, Wendy, Ludwig and Roy? I would love it if they made a comeback, I'm getting sick and tired of Bowser Jr!

[Fatgoron]

This coming from the same person who accuses Nintendo of forgetting the Koopalings ever existed.

Sometimes, Nintendo changes their minds. Unless specifically stated in an actual game or manual, Nintendo can later go and take another approach if the old way is too limiting or new games make it almost impossible to work. If it's just word from the creators alone outside the game, then it's not set in stone and the creators can always go back and say something completely different. They have done this in the past before.

I don't yet see anything to indicate that Nintendo has changed their minds about OoT being the sealing war.
There's nothing in the newer games that would make any of them better matches for the story, and OoT has retained certain plot elements, like those Fyxe mentioned, which are exclusive to the sealing war.
It can't go anywhere else without massive fan-wankery at present.

[Showsni]

contraversy time. so, as far as we know, the only ways to resurrect ganon (we don't know how vaati did it in FSA) are to light the three evil flames or to sprinkle link's blood on ganon's ashes. The only place the sleeping zelda story is ever mentioned is in the american instructions booklet which historically are not reliable (have any of the games referred to Ganon as "Mandrag"?). Here's what we know, Ganon dies in LoZ, he's resurrected (only partially) by Twinrova in the oracles games. and to top it all off, someoe is leading a huge army of monsters including a resurrected dark link.
Does anyone else think it's possible (and much less convoluted than 2 zeldas at once) that the sleeping zelda is the same one in LOZ and Oracles and that Twinrova put her to sleep, not some magician? The games make no room for an era where any King ruled with the triforce, the triforce was in the sacred realm till ganon stole it.
besides, why would an ancient zelda kiss link?

You're saying that the whole AoL backstory/manual is completely wrong? That's quite a bold statement! Just because the ALttP manual had a few additions by NOA? And to make it fit better? I don't think we should just ignore canon like that. After all, with the GBA version they had the perfect chance to change it - and they didn't.

[Fyxe]

Precisely, Fatgoron. Nintendo does sometimes retroactively change things. OoT itself is an example of them changing the Imprisoning War *slightly*. However, the amount of similarities far outweigh the minor differences.

There's no evidence to suggest Nintendo has majorly moved the order of the old games around just because they're releasing new games.

Mario Jr., although Bahamut just totally zinged you, I should point out...

Yoshi's Safari - 1993

Mario & Luigi - Superstar Saga - 2003

TEN YEARS without any sign of the Koopalings. And they appeared in a game that's full of retro references, so I doubt we'll see them again. So, yes, Nintendo has pretty much forgotten their existence, at least for ten years they did.

[Crazy Penguin]

Crazy Penguin, that doesn't prove anything, anyone could have written the scroll.

It ties in directly with the rest of the story. It's not a coincidence. Why would they tell us that the prince inherited only an imcomplete Triforce and the other piece was hidden, and then tell us about a scroll in which the author states that he had left two pieces of the Triforce to be inherited to the kingdom but hidden the other piece, if there was absolutely no connection at all?

The only place the sleeping zelda story is ever mentioned is in the american instructions booklet which historically are not reliable (have any of the games referred to Ganon as "Mandrag"?).

It was in the Japanese instruction book long before the US version was even released.

The games make no room for an era where any King ruled with the triforce

The Triforce is in Hyrule Castle at the time of the Oracle games.

why would an ancient zelda kiss link?

He had just awoken her from centuries of magical sleep, and it's a fantasy fairy tale cliche.

[SOAP]

I don't yet see anything to indicate that Nintendo has changed their minds about OoT being the sealing war.
There's nothing in the newer games that would make any of them better matches for the story, and OoT has retained certain plot elements, like those Fyxe mentioned, which are exclusive to the sealing war.
It can't go anywhere else without massive fan-wankery at present.

Except no because we have TWW now which cuts ALttP away from OoT unless you assume people forgot about the flood but remembered the events of OoT when in TWW, hardly anyone remembered Hyrule ever existed AT ALL or you go with a split timeline and assume everything happened all over again, except this time, more precise to the events spoken of in ALttP. Either way, you still have to majorly fanwank. Having the Imprisoning War as a story exclusive to ALttP involves no more fanfiction than say... having the Sleeping Princess story as story exclusive to LoZ-AoL.

[MikePetersSucks]

I think this all hypocritical. The people who say the SZ story can't come before all the games and just the backstory to LoZ-AoL are pretty much the same people who claim OoT has to be the Imprisoning War of ALttP's backstory when there's just as much inconsitencies as saying the Sleeping Princess is OoT Zelda or any Zelda before her, if not more so.

I don't

Also, is it that hard yto believe that LoZ and AoL and the SZ Backstory could be squeezed inbetween OoT and TWW? We already know that TP can, despite what some British magazines say...

Um, yea. Because that means Ganon has to break free, get killed, come back, and get put back in the Sage's Seal somehow. It also means the Triforce has to be reunited, have Courage get sealed, unsealed, and then broken, have Wisdom get broken and reunited twice, and have Power return to Ganon, get taken from him, and returned to him again. Way too much fanfiction.

MikePetersSucks, the fact that only the full Triforce is the only way in which Sleeping Zelda can come back to life doesn't mean that the scroll is related to her, Impa doesn't mention anything that implies it.

But the fact that it was in the room with her beyond the Sealed Door that only Link can open in the span of Zelda's eternal slumber does imply it. The only time the letter could have EVER gotten there is the time of Zelda's curse.

Crazy Penguin, that doesn't prove anything, anyone could have written the scroll.

Both the retcon and the actual text of the letter imply the King's doing. Who else could have done it?

contraversy time. so, as far as we know, the only ways to resurrect ganon (we don't know how vaati did it in FSA) are to light the three evil flames or to sprinkle link's blood on ganon's ashes. The only place the sleeping zelda story is ever mentioned is in the american instructions booklet which historically are not reliable (have any of the games referred to Ganon as "Mandrag"?). Here's what we know, Ganon dies in LoZ, he's resurrected (only partially) by Twinrova in the oracles games. and to top it all off, someoe is leading a huge army of monsters including a resurrected dark link.
Does anyone else think it's possible (and much less convoluted than 2 zeldas at once) that the sleeping zelda is the same one in LOZ and Oracles and that Twinrova put her to sleep, not some magician? The games make no room for an era where any King ruled with the triforce, the triforce was in the sacred realm till ganon stole it.
besides, why would an ancient zelda kiss link?

This is so wrong for so many reasons. Vaati never ressurected Ganon ; Ganon just reincarnated. Also, Oracles doesn't go inbetween LOZ and AOL. It can't since the Triforce of Courage is still sealed. The instruction manual is canon, since it gives us the same information as in the Japanese version. And yo? Ever played LTTP? All Link had to do was give the King the Triforce and go on to his next adventure. Problem solved. Also, the magician in the instruction manual was not only hired by the prince, but was also a male who DIED after casting the curse. You're writing fanfiction. Not a good move. Also, lots of princesses kiss heros when they rescue them. it's just a cliche. as for Two Zelda's at once, well, poo on you. It's completely possible. OMG two villains! *points to FSA* NOT POOSIBAL

[Doopliss]

I don't think this to be possible because at the end of A Link to the Past it's said that the Master Sword will sleep forever, anyway, in Kodai no Sekiban it's used, but we would have to see if it can be considered canon. I'm trying to be the most impartial I can, so I sent a message to Zethar-II asking him information about this game. Now, I don't think that it can be proved when the scroll was written exactly, it could have been written by anyone else after the events of the Sleeping Zelda occured.

Plus, in that order, it would be difficult to explain how Ganon has the Triforce of Power in The Wind Waker, because he was dead at the end of The Adventure of Link. Ganon's minions' attemps to revive him using Link's blood and Twinrova's attemps to sacrifice princess Zelda failed, so it's difficult to explain how Ganon revived.

Um, yea. Because that means Ganon has to break free, get killed, come back, and get put back in the Sage's Seal somehow. It also means the Triforce has to be reunited, have Courage get sealed, unsealed, and then broken, have Wisdom get broken and reunited twice, and have Power return to Ganon, get taken from him, and returned to him again. Way too much fanfiction.

No, the Triforce of Wisdom is still free to be used by the king after Ocarina of Time, and that's all what we need.

And I almost forgot about this. The manual says that the prince was looking for the missing parts, and the person who wrote the scroll says that he/she left the other two parts of the Triforce in the kingdom, so this implies that they are different persons.

[Crazy Penguin]

And I almost forgot about this. The manual says that the prince was looking for the missing parts, and the person who wrote the scroll says that he/she left the other two parts of the Triforce in the kingdom, so this implies that they are different persons.

The king left Wisdom and Power to be inherited (as he said in the scroll) and hid Courage. The prince inherited Wisdom and Power but couldn't find Courage.

[Fyxe]

In the Japanese manual it said he was looking for WHAT HE DID NOT POSSESS. So the whole thing about him missing 'parts' of the Triforce is a mistranstion.

[Fatgoron]

Except no because we have TWW now which cuts ALttP away from OoT unless you assume people forgot about the flood but remembered the events of OoT when in TWW, hardly anyone remembered Hyrule ever existed AT ALL or you go with a split timeline and assume everything happened all over again, except this time, more precise to the events spoken of in ALttP. Either way, you still have to majorly fanwank. Having the Imprisoning War as a story exclusive to ALttP involves no more fanfiction than say... having the Sleeping Princess story as story exclusive to LoZ-AoL.

There's no reason for people to be mentioning the flood during aLttP, since it has nothing to do with the present events.
The sealing war/IW is about Ganon's origins, and it explains him being sealed in the sacred realm. The flood had nothing to do with that, nor did it pertain to any other details in aLttP.
Obviously aLttP was created before WW, but there's nothing contradictory about WW being between OoT and aLtTP.

[Crazy Penguin]

In the Japanese manual it said he was looking for WHAT HE DID NOT POSSESS.  So the whole thing about him missing 'parts' of the Triforce is a mistranstion.

It says that he searched for what he did not have of the Triforce. It's not directly specified which parts of the Triforce he did and did not have, however the scroll says that Power and Wisdom were left to be inherited and Courage was hidden. So the implication was that the prince had the Triforces of Power and Wisdom, but not the hidden Courage. This also ties in with the first game, as just before it "started" the Triforces of Power and Wisdom were in Hyrule Castle (until Ganon invaded and took the Triforce of Power and Zelda split the Triforce of Wisdom into eight pieces).

[Doopliss]

I see, could you look for anything else that could prove that the king wrote it? I'll look for more that proves it wrong or right. It seems like you're right.

[SOAP]

I don't know if there's anyway to prove what part(s) of the Triforce the Prince inherited, and I'll use a quote from Fyxe against her and say "Language itself has many meanings." The Prince could have inherited anything from two peices of the triforce, to one part, to hell, even a shart of a peice of the Triforce a la Tetra's family heirloom. We just know he inherited part of it and the rest was hidden. The implication may be that it was Power and Wisdom though. I'll give you that.

Also, I always assumed that it was Zelda's brother that wrote it. Assuming it was Power and Courage inherited, he could've hidden Courage in response to the tragedy that befell his sister so that the complete Triforce would fall into the wrong hands. He could've then written the letter as a clue left behind for a hero with a balanced enough heart to break the spell after he recived the Triforce of Wisdom from Zelda who in turn recieved it from her father just before he died.

[Crazy Penguin]

Also, I always assumed that it was Zelda's brother that wrote it. Assuming it was Power and Courage inherited, he could've hidden Courage in response to the tragedy that befell his sister so that the complete Triforce would fall into the wrong hands. He could've then written the letter as a clue left behind for a hero with a balanced enough heart to break the spell after he recived the Triforce of Wisdom from Zelda who in turn recieved it from her father just before he died.

How could he receive part of the Triforce from his sister if she was asleep? I think there'd have been a mention of something that important. And we're told only that the king told Zelda about the rest of the Triforce, never that he actually gave her a part of it. And the letter makes no mention of the sleeping princess, which would be an important thing to mention if it was written after that time, it is Impa who has to ask Link to wake the princess with the Triforce.

If it was the prince then he'd have gone from searching for the rest of the Triforce to actually having the full Triforce without the reader being told about it.

It was definitely Zelda and the prince's father who wrote the scroll, all of the parts fall together perfectly. He left Wisdom and Power to his son and hid Courage, the prince received Wisdom and Power but could not find Courage.

[MikePetersSucks]

Now, I don't think that it can be proved when the scroll was written exactly, it could have been written by anyone else after the events of the Sleeping Zelda occured.

The door was SEALED! Never opened from when Zelda was put to sleep and the time Link opened it. That means that only the Prince, the King, or Zelda could've written it. The Prince didn't have the whole Triforce, Zelda was asleep, and the King set up this whole smooth operation. HMMMmmmm.....I wonder :/ Seriously, atleast give us a theory instead of "It wasn't the King." Give us a person, an idea, or atleast some kind of proof against the King.

[Fyxe]

Language has many meanings, which is why you have to avoid twisting it. In these situations the most simple and obvious answer is almost always accurate.

Oh, and if you want proof that it was the king who wrote the scroll, the king was the one who set up the guardians in the dungeons (like Iron Knuckles and stuff). I believe the manual states this. And as the scroll was written by whoever did the whole dungeon thing, then that's proof enough that it's the same person.

If proof be needed. I really can't see why people argue over this.

[SOAP]

Fair enough.

But one last thing: how do you know the triforce has never left the Sacred Realm ever since their creation prior to OoT? I just went a rechecked and it makes no mention of the Triforce never having been moved from the Sacred Realm ever since it's creation, merely that where it rested became known as the Sacred Realm.

[MikePetersSucks]

But one last thing: how do you know the triforce has never left the Sacred Realm ever since their creation prior to OoT? I just went a rechecked and it makes no mention of the Triforce never having been moved from the Sacred Realm ever since it's creation, merely that where it rested became known as the Sacred Realm.

I don't know where that came from either. Probably some crap some people pulled out their ass when they discovered OOT was the first game in the series.

[SOAP]

I'm tempted to put LoZ and AoL first....

[Wolf O'Donnell]

I'm tempted to put LoZ and AoL first....

It would make good use of the "all Princesses henceforth were named Zelda in the Sleeping Princess' honour" backstory, which is made redundant if you don't put it somewhere near the beginning.

However, not putting it at the beginning would extend the timeline by possibliy several thousand years in order to improve the chances of a Zelda appearing at the same time as a Link and a Malon and a Talon.

[SOAP]

I still say it's OoT Zelda. I also still think the Hero of Time mentioned in TWW is a term to used to name all pre-TWW Links as one hero and the "seprarated from the elemenrs" line refers to whoever held the ToC last.

Also, where does it say that Ganon stole the ToP right before LoZ? I was under the impression he always had it.

Edit: I take that last question back. I forgot about the LoZ manual. I have a habit of forgetting about those....