145 replies to this topic

[Showsni]

I'm tempted to put LoZ and AoL first....

Nothing says that the triforce was nevre moved prior to OoT (indeed, the presence of a complicated locking sytem would imply that the triforce has been moved into the SR inOoT), but it's probably best to start with a legend where the triforce is still in the SR - like the IW story, which reads like the first time the triforce was moved from the SR to me.

[Fyxe]

Hold it, lets not start putting ALttP before OoT. This is messed up enough as it is.

Just because there is a lock on the gateway to the Sacred Realm doesn't mean the Triforce has even been touched, and especially not moved. It seems perfectly logical to me that the world that contains the power of the gods themselves to have some kind of seal on it. Otherwise any old bugger could go in and grab the bloody thing.

And as we know, the gods left it in the Sacred Realm. So we can presume it's never been moved, although someone may of made a wish upon it at one point in history (for example, around the time the Temple of Light was created) and left it there, who knows.

[SOAP]

I miss my "ALttP before OoT" Theory...

[Fyxe]

How does AoL seague into the Oracles smoothy? The Oracles could be anywhere after ALttP, and judging by the time of release and the style of the gameplay I would say it's set some centuries or so after ALttP/LA.

It *could* come after AoL, but there isn't even a Hyrule Castle in AoL.

[mohammedali]

I seem to recall that AoL was retconned in the GBA relesae to state that the king who owned the triforce wrote the letter.

The retcon just says that a King gave the letter, but doesn't specify if it was the same King.

As for the comma - "Tell me, Hyrule King...
Have you learned the whereabouts of the
one who carries on the bloodline of the
princess, Zelda?"

The comma could just mean that Zelda is the name of the princess, rather than being the one who carries on the bloodline of the princess. If it were meaning the one, then I'd expect something a bit stronger than a comma - a hyphen, maybe. Perhaps even a semi colon.

If it was refering to the old princess, then it would say "carries on the bloodline of the princess Zelda" rather than have a comma. On top of that, although what you are suggesting is possible in a loose sence, the sentence seems more to be implying that Zelda is the name of the girl whos whereabouts Jabun is asking of. However, it is a possible ambiguity though I recon he is refering to Tetra as Zelda, and the princess is not named.

Mohammed Ali

[mohammedali]

Just read some of the WW quotes again. Seems like Jabun refers to Tetra as Zelda before anyone else calls her that, so my post directly above was correct. This (along with other quotes) would suggest that Tetra is named Zelda because of tradition meaning that Sleeping Zelda comes before WW, and hence in most timelines, before all other Zelda games.

Mohammed Ali

[Fyxe]

Except that simply doesn't work. I've been over this so many times. Unless you want the Triforce to zip back and forth from the Sacred Realm to Hyrule and back (and as most quotes suggest, this is unbelievably unlikely), the story cannot come before OoT.

[Doopliss]

Why don't we place it after OoT? ALttP has to come before the Sleeping Zelda events and there is a Zelda, so we can justify that the princess from OoT being also called by that name, unwise the case of TWW.

[mohammedali]

Except that simply doesn't work.  I've been over this so many times.  Unless you want the Triforce to zip back and forth from the Sacred Realm to Hyrule and back (and as most quotes suggest, this is unbelievably unlikely), the story cannot come before OoT.

I've been over this even more times. There is no canon reason why the Sleeping Zelda cannot be chronologically first. The Triforce clearly seems to have been tampered with in some way before OoT, otherwise how the hell did they get it into the Temple of Light, and build a link from that exact spot to the Temple of Time in Hyrule? How could they have created the Master Sword which is stated to be used to repel the Trifroces power if they never even found the Triforce?

It's clear that the Hylians of old (older that OoT) knew about the Triforce, and it is very likely that someone before Ganon had used it. For whatever reason though, it seems it was sealed in the Sacred Realm after AoL Bs in a place that seemed to be secure. This would make sence as the Prince or his kin would quite likely realise how greed for the Triforce caused so many problems, and hence seal it back in the sacred realm but this time with a giant seal.

Mohammed Ali

[Fyxe]

I've been over this even more times. There is no canon reason why the Sleeping Zelda cannot be chronologically first.

There's no canon reason why Ganon can't secretly be gay and hates and loves Link at the same time, doesn't make it so.

The Triforce clearly seems to have been tampered with in some way before OoT, otherwise how the hell did they get it into the Temple of Light, and build a link from that exact spot to the Temple of Time in Hyrule? How could they have created the Master Sword which is stated to be used to repel the Trifroces power if they never even found the Triforce?

Hold it, does the Temple of Light actually house the Triforce? I'd need to check the quotes on that. But they don't need to of found the Triforce to create something designed to repel it's power. It's called magic, we can assume you can do clever things with magic. Besides, was the Master Sword ever 'forged', anyway? Do we actually know who made it? For all we know it could of been placed by the Gods themselves as a counter to the Triforce.

Also, just because there's a portal to the Sacred Realm doesn't mean anyone actually touched the Triforce.

It's clear that the Hylians of old (older that OoT) knew about the Triforce, and it is very likely that someone before Ganon had used it. For whatever reason though, it seems it was sealed in the Sacred Realm after AoL Bs in a place that seemed to be secure. This would make sence as the Prince or his kin would quite likely realise how greed for the Triforce caused so many problems, and hence seal it back in the sacred realm but this time with a giant seal.

This seems a bit of a stretch. In AoL, they know all about the 'Legend of Zelda', yet in Ocarina of Time there is absolutely no mention of the Triforce ever leaving the Sacred Realm, and little knowledge about the ancient sages other than the fact that they built the Temple of Light. That doesn't mesh.

Ever since ALttP we've known that ancient Hylians have been close to the Triforce and knew more about it than modern Hylians ever did. But the story of the King of Hyrule just having the Triforce in his possession doesn't seem to bare any resemblance to this, and what we know about that Hyrule and that king certainly doesn't come across as some 'ancient race'.

Besides, if he was so worried about someone getting the Triforce of Courage, why didn't he put it back in the Sacred Realm and seal the entrance like he did with the Great Palace? The only real explaination for that is that he simply didn't know much about the Sacred Realm.

[mohammedali]

There's no canon reason why Ganon can't secretly be gay and hates and loves Link at the same time, doesn't make it so.

I could have used the same line on you with your assumption that Ganon is the first to use the Triforce, but it's just such a stupid thing to say.

Hold it, does the Temple of Light actually house the Triforce?  I'd need to check the quotes on that. But they don't need to of found the Triforce to create something designed to repel it's power.  It's called magic, we can assume you can do clever things with magic.  Besides, was the Master Sword ever 'forged', anyway?  Do we actually know who made it?  For all we know it could of been placed by the Gods themselves as a counter to the Triforce.

No. The Gods told the people to make somthing that could repulse the power of the Triforce (aLttP Manuel). This was done using the gods' power (which I take to be the Trifocre), done by 2 sages (WW Quote).

Also, just because there's a portal to the Sacred Realm doesn't mean anyone actually touched the Triforce.

Right. So everyone is looking for the Triforce. Everyone wants to use it, but no. They find it and decide to leave it there. I don't think you realise how much this item was desired. Even the King in AoL Bs was said to use this to maintain order in Hyrule. It doesn't make sence for one to leave it.

This seems a bit of a stretch.  In AoL, they know all about the 'Legend of Zelda', yet in Ocarina of Time there is absolutely no mention of the Triforce ever leaving the Sacred Realm, and little knowledge about the ancient sages other than the fact that they built the Temple of Light.  That doesn't mesh.

They know all about the Sleeping Zelda because Impa told Link the story after she saw the birthmark. Notice that Link and Impa had known each other for months but she only told him once she saw the mark. It make perfect sence that she wouldn't mention it in OoT, I mean she didn't even mention it Link after he saved her and Zelda and got 2 of the 3 pieces untill around his 16th.

Ever since ALttP we've known that ancient Hylians have been close to the Triforce and knew more about it than modern Hylians ever did.  But the story of the King of Hyrule just having the Triforce in his possession doesn't seem to bare any resemblance to this, and what we know about that Hyrule and that king certainly doesn't come across as some 'ancient race'.

I'm finding it hard to see what you're driving at here. It seems vague and ambiguous at best. Would you like to clariffy?

Besides, if he was so worried about someone getting the Triforce of Courage, why didn't he put it back in the Sacred Realm and seal the entrance like he did with the Great Palace?  The only real explaination for that is that he simply didn't know much about the Sacred Realm.

Considering 'he' could be any King after AoL Bs, you're right, perhaps he didn't know how to put it back in the Sacred Realm. OR maybe he didn't want to because it was still in part the Dark World. It's even quite possible that he didn't think it was safe there after all that had happened.

Mohammed Ali

[Fyxe]

We're getting into the realm of fanfic here. And I'm not going to continue to argue about some imaginary second king that exists simply to make timelines work.

However, I will clarify what I meant. Take a look at the story about the king, Zelda and the prince, and look at the pictures of Hyrule. The kingdom and it's set-up doesn't seem much different from the Hyrule we see in LoZ and AoL. It certainly does not appear to be related to any kind of 'ancient race' spoke about in ALttP's backstory.

I will conceed that the Triforce may of been used and housed in the Scared Realm by the ancient Hylians, although it may of been merely honoured than actually used.

The three goddesses hid the
Triforce containing the power of
the gods somewhere in Hyrule.
The power
to grant the wish of the one who
holds the Triforce in his hands.
If someone with a righteous heart
makes a wish, it will lead Hyrule
to a golden age of prosperity....
If someone with an evil mind has
his wish granted, the world will
be consumed by evil...That is what
has been told....
So, the ancient Sages built
the Temple of Time to protect the
Triforce from evil ones.

Anyway, back to the ALttP backstory, in which the location of the Triforce was lost in time, with little to no knowledge of the entrance to the Sacred Realm.

However, you're also suggesting that the AoL backstory, which you say happens before all this, is still well known and detailed despite people totally losing the location and knowledge of the Triforce in the proceeding time?

Oh, and by the way, you're making the massive assumption that Impa is the same Impa from OoT. Why should this be so? Impa has had at least three different appearances throughout the series and never shows any hints that she's met Link before or used to be a Sheikah or a Sage or anything like that.

Malon and Talon have appeared in a few games but nobody thinks they're the same ones.

[mohammedali]

We're getting into the realm of fanfic here.  And I'm not going to continue to argue about some imaginary second king that exists simply to make timelines work.

But you ARE going to completely ignore the fact that Zelda was the first-generation princess. Gotcha.
Look, it's possible that the reference was made about a different King later in the story. The first part of the story even refers to the Prince becoming King, so it is more than just possible that the King spoken about afterwards and said to have given Impa's family the scroll being someone else. At the same time, there may be a way to make the first Zelda have predecessors. You just have to choose which one you want to honour.
I believe that SZ is the first-generation, and hence it was a different King. You seem to believe the same King is refered to, and hence disregard the whole first Zelda thing. Simple.

However, I will clarify what I meant.  Take a look at the story about the king, Zelda and the prince, and look at the pictures of Hyrule.  The kingdom and it's set-up doesn't seem much different from the Hyrule we see in LoZ and AoL.  It certainly does not appear to be related to any kind of 'ancient race' spoke about in ALttP's backstory.

Yeah, and the hands of the sages doesn't look much like the sages from OoT, the MS seems to change colour quite often too, and a whole host of other problems with art. Well guess what, these are all artist impressions. In later games I would have been more simpothetic to this line of thought, but not for any game before OoT. There are obvious inconsistancies between the art in LoZ and AoL, but I don't hear anyone insisting that this means they are different times and different Links.

Anyway, back to the ALttP backstory, in which the location of the Triforce was lost in time, with little to no knowledge of the entrance to the Sacred Realm.

However, you're also suggesting that the AoL backstory, which you say happens before all this, is still well known and detailed despite people totally losing the location and knowledge of the Triforce in the proceeding time?

What's wrong with that?
In AoL Bs, they have the Triforce.
After many years it is sealed back in the SR.
In aLttP Bs / OoT the location (although forgotten by most) is found 'by chance'.
In aLttP the Triforce is taken by Link before he sets off on his adventures.
I assume Link leaves the Triforce there or becomes King himself.
The King gives the Impa family a scroll that says about the Triforce. (If Link is the King then I understand why he would put Courage in a special place).
And then LoZ and AoL occurs. End.

Oh, and by the way, you're making the massive assumption that Impa is the same Impa from OoT.  Why should this be so?  Impa has had at least three different appearances throughout the series and never shows any hints that she's met Link before or used to be a Sheikah or a Sage or anything like that.

Malon and Talon have appeared in a few games but nobody thinks they're the same ones.

I'm assuming that Impa in OoT is the same bloodline of Impa in AoL. Is that too much of an assumption to make? The reason I spoke of her not telling Link was because OoT Impa must know the story if she passed it down all the way to AoL Impa.

Mohammed Ali

[Fyxe]

I'll edit this later, because I don't have time, but she wasn't 'first-generation'. She was the 'founder', as in the founder of the naming tradition. It doesn't mean she was the first. If you check the translation table it equates this to a Japanese tradition that reveals more about the whole naming concept, and implies it's far less significant than it appears to be in the American manual.

[Crazy Penguin]

When AoL was released the sleeping Zelda was obviously supposed to be the first Zelda. But that idea became irreconcilable with Ocarina of Time, so as Fyxe pointed out she must now be the founder Zelda in a lesser sense.

[mohammedali]

When AoL was released the sleeping Zelda was obviously supposed to be the first Zelda. But that idea became irreconcilable with Ocarina of Time, so as Fyxe pointed out she must now be the founder Zelda in a lesser sense.

There is no canon reason why she cannot be before all the other Zeldas. This is a fact. There IS however, reason why she should be the first (many of which are mentioned above). I think WW has sealed it for me. To rename Tetra to Zelda because of ancient laws just shouts AoL Bs.
However, if you really don't buy it then that's fine. We've had this conversation a million times and I don't think I'll ever convince you CP

Mohammed Ali

[Crazy Penguin]

There is no canon reason why she cannot be before all the other Zeldas.

Because the Triforce of Courage was hidden before she was put to sleep and not recovered until AoL.

[mohammedali]

Because the Triforce of Courage was hidden before she was put to sleep and not recovered until AoL.

Dude, you know that that isn't a canon fact. Why lie to yourself? It is never said that the Triforce was hidden before Zelda went to sleep. Sorry but it isn't a fact. Try again.

Mohammed Ali

[Crazy Penguin]

Dude, you know that that isn't a canon fact. Why lie to yourself? It is never said that the Triforce was hidden before Zelda went to sleep. Sorry but it isn't a fact. Try again.

Try to read it again with a blank mind.

[Fatgoron]

Actually it was.

http://gallery.zelda...album=276&pos=3

http://gallery.zelda...album=276&pos=4

[Fyxe]

Oh but it is. Time to kill off this 'two king' thing completely. It's driving me nuts. I'm not going to set out to prove that while it's not a complete impossiblity (because, as I said, there's nothing to prove Ganon isn't gay or Zelda isn't having an affair with Ruto, etc.), but a *logical* impossibility.

And I shall do it with the power of quotes.

Long ago, when Hyrule was still one country, a great King was said to have used the Triforce to maintain order in Hyrule.
Yet, even the king was a son of man, and passed away when his lifespan was exhausted.

The magician had heard something about the King telling only the Prince's younger sister, the first generation Princess Zelda, about the Triforce before he died.

So far, there is one king, who as we know had a secret about the Triforce (and this is obviously something to do with the part(s) of the Triforce the prince did not have). Lets look at the quotes from the scroll.

It is said that the key to uniting the Triforce is hidden there.

Clearly implying it relates directly to the previous story.

"To the person that will control the Triforce of the future.
You will now be told the secret(s) of the Triforce.
There are three kinds of Triforce. Namely "power," "wisdom" and "courage."
When these three Triforce are joined together, its maximum power will be shown.
Of the three, "power" and "wisdom" remain in this Kingdom and can be received.
But the Triforce of "courage" I have hidden for a reason.

The Triforce of "courage" is hidden in the Great Temple at the "Valley of Death" on the biggest island in Hyrule.
But, to get there, you must first fight the guardian deities in the six temples in Hyrule to break the "barrier."
I have made these guardian deities in order to protect the temples from trespassing by foreign enemies.

As we see from the scroll, there is nothing saying it was written by another king, but nor is there technically anything saying it was written by *the* king. So far, there has only been one king mentioned.

The enemies in the palace are those that were made and chosen by the King.  They're abnormally strong.

Notice *THE* King. There has only been one king mentioned in the manual thus far. Therefore, it is talking about the same king. That means that the person who wrote the scroll and made the temples and their traps and guardians and hid the Triforce of Courage is THE King.

To suggest anything else would be blindly avoiding the obvious. Lets forget whether I'm right or not about the 'Legend of Zelda' for a moment. Ignore that. Lets even ignore the manual making it as plain as day that there's only one king for a moment. You need to persuade us that there's two kings.

One king had part or parts of the Triforce hidden, and died with the founding Zelda being the only one who knew the secret.

Another king had part of the Triforce hidden, and died before he could find anyone worthy for it. He wrote a scroll, which completely by coincidence was handed down along with the sleeping Zelda in the North Castle.

Lets EVEN ignore the logical fallacy that begs the question; if this second king got the Triforce of Courage, then hid it, why did he not wake the sleeping Zelda before he hid the damn thing?

Ok, now persuade us, using quotes if possible.

[mohammedali]

Try to read it again with a blank mind.

As I said, for a stand alone, I can understand why it would be 1 King. However, overall for the entire game, there is no reason why it couldn't be a different King who wrote the scroll and gave it to Impa's family. There is no reason why this cannot be true. Fatgoron, that goes for your post as well. The manuel just says the King gave the scroll and crystals to Impa's family, and that he wrote the scroll. It could very well be a different King. It's not that inconcievable that Hyrule has had more than 1 King who is mentioned in such an epic story.

Mohammed Ali

[mohammedali]

Notice *THE* King.  There has only been one king mentioned in the manual thus far.  Therefore, it is talking about the same king.  That means that the person who wrote the scroll and made the temples and their traps and guardians and hid the Triforce of Courage is THE King.

This is not proof of anything. It doesn't say 'THE King' or even 'The King'. It says 'the king'. I could be any King of Hyrule.
As I have said before, it works better to assume 1 king when the story is in isolation, but not when taking the whole storyline into consideration.

To suggest anything else would be blindly avoiding the obvious.  Lets forget whether I'm right or not about the 'Legend of Zelda' for a moment.  Ignore that.  Lets even ignore the manual making it as plain as day that there's only one king for a moment.  You need to persuade us that there's two kings.

Fine. All the games seem to suggest they follow the Legend of Zelda. In particular, it clearly holds before WW from the quotes. Hence, the Sleeping Zelda rule existed at the very least before WW. WW occurs during a time when the Triforce of courage was NOT in a great temple made by the King. Hence, the King that put it in the Temple must have been one that exists AFTER WW. i.e. there are 2 Kings.

One king had part or parts of the Triforce hidden, and died with the founding Zelda being the only one who knew the secret.

Another king had part of the Triforce hidden, and died before he could find anyone worthy for it.  He wrote a scroll, which completely by coincidence was handed down along with the sleeping Zelda in the North Castle.

Exactly. Zelda fell a sleep after her father dies so you should ask yourself why the scroll was passed down with Zelda 'coincidently' if not for the hope that someone would one day come who could control the Triforce.

Lets EVEN ignore the logical fallacy that begs the question; if this second king got the Triforce of Courage, then hid it, why did he not wake the sleeping Zelda before he hid the damn thing?

My guess is that he didn't control the Triforce himself either (and hence was looking for one that could). Or he wasn't aware of the Sleeping Zelda story for whatever reason. There can be any number of reasons. Sorry Fyxe, but you haven't disproven anything.

Mohammed Ali

[Fyxe]

I've logically disproven it. It says the King. It even capitalises it. There's never any talk of any other king. You could ask 99.9% of people to read the manual and play the game and they would never think there was a second king.

You're only scraping the bottom of the barrel of possibility to make a certain timeline work. If everyone did that the whole timeline is up in the air constantly.

[mohammedali]

I've logically disproven it.  It says the King.  It even capitalises it.  There's never any talk of any other king.  You could ask 99.9% of people to read the manual and play the game and they would never think there was a second king.

You're only scraping the bottom of the barrel of possibility to make a certain timeline work.  If everyone did that the whole timeline is up in the air constantly.

Please. You haven't logically disproven anything. Don't kid yourself.
You may be right that most people assume it's the same king but it still doesn't mean that's true. WW has now PROVEN that the Legend of Zelda (sleeping) existed before WW. Hence there HAS to be 2 kings. THAT is proof.

Mohammed Ali

[Fyxe]

Proven? Proven!? Now *you're* kidding yourself. WW proves nothing. That's rediculous and you know it.

[mohammedali]

Proven?  Proven!?  Now *you're* kidding yourself.  WW proves nothing.  That's rediculous and you know it.

I actually think it's extremely plausable and is the closest thing we have to any proof. However, as I have said a million times (usually when me and CP debate this topic), there isn't anything solid enough that everyone will accept.
I'm perfectly happy if you want to believe Sleeping Zelda comes after aLttP or whatever. Just don't go around trying to force other people to believe you with 'logical proofs'. There is no firm evidence that what you are saying is correct, and IMHO the huge majority of logic points towards SZ being first in the timeline.
I take the WW quotes to now seal the deal for me. It shows to me that there is a tradition of naming Zelda, and shouts out a AoL Bs reference. If you don't accept it as that, then fine. This has always been a highly debated topic in Zelda, and I don't think what either of us are going to say is going to change that as it currently stands.

Mohammed Ali

[Showsni]

WW has now PROVEN that the Legend of Zelda (sleeping) existed before WW. Hence there HAS to be 2 kings. THAT is proof.

Mohammed Ali

I agree that SZ is before TWW, but that doesn't mean that there are two kings. It makes a lot more sense if there's only one king... Who is your second king, anyway? Someone who finds the lost triforce that the other king, Zelda's brother, couldn't find, then immediately hides it again?