145 replies to this topic

[Showsni]

Just thought I'd make a point - TWW has to come after the Sleeping Zelda story, AoL's backstory. This is because the King of Red Lions calls Tetra Zelda, and there is no reason for him to do this if the Sleeping Zelda story hasn't occured. Since no games involving the Triforce of CCourage can come between the SZ and AoL, this also means TWW must come after AoL (and LoZ).

[Fatgoron]

Nice evidence, but I wouldn't say it's that concrete.
Most people accept that there are games before LoZ and AoL, at the very least OoT is nigh universally accepted as first, and by the same reasoning there'd be no reason for OoT Zelda to have that same name.

[Showsni]

Yes, but in TWW her name isn't Zelda. It's Tetra. The KoRL calls her Zelda though - the only reason for him to do this is the SZ story. Otherwise, it's like me calling Prince William Henry, for no reason at all. If there had been a royal decree that all firstborn princes of England were to be named Henry, thouh, I'd have my reason.

[Fatgoron]

He could just as easily be lamenting his own daughter, now long dead, or the tradition could have started long before.
Either way, the SZ story is inconsistent with the continuous naming of Princesses as Zelda, unless it comes before all the games currently out.

[FDL]

And it probably can't, because even in a deep sleep behind a huge door, I don't think you could survive a huge ocean falling on you. That's one thing I don't like about TWW, I finally began getting involved with the Multi-Link thing and timeline theories and then TWW comes along and complicates everything with "split timelines" and the original Hyrule being destroyed.

[Fyxe]

The sleeping Zelda cannot come before the first Zelda games because the Triforce was not removed from the Sacred Realm until OoT, however in the story it is in Hyrule, owned by the king and seems to have been there for some time.

The sleeping Zelda also cannot be the Zelda from OoT, the backstory does not connect, clearly.

So, basically, there HAS to be another Zelda before the sleeping Zelda story occurs, meaning it's a moot point anyway.

JABUN:

(Tell me, Hyrule King...
Have you learned the whereabouts of the
one who carries on the bloodline of the
princess, Zelda?)


KING OF RED LIONS:

...I believe I have.


JABUN:

(That is well. You must protect Zelda.
She cannot be permitted to fall into the
hands of Ganon.

I am counting on you!)

[MikePetersSucks]

He could just as easily be lamenting his own daughter, now long dead, or the tradition could have started long before.

I'm going to have to go with Fatgoron on this one. The King did say he was like Ganon; forever clinging to the past instead of acknowledging the present and future. Tetra probably looked just like his poor daughter, or he was hoping beyond hope that the Triforce of Wisdom would put his daughter's memories and spirit in Tetra's own. Either THAT, or her name was always Zelda and she only took on Tetra as a pirate alias (like Redbeard.) I mean, Tetra does have half of the Triforce of Wisdom. (or did, whatever). She knows more than she lets on. She knew some stuff about Ganon and the Master Sword, and she was obviously aware of the Hero of Time's connection to the Triforce and where it might be hidden.

The Sleeping Zelda thing is really outdated. I know we can all agree that Nintendo has to address this. Now, the only safe place to put the Sleeping Zelda story without any (big) problems is before LOZ. And if you want to get rid of all problems outright, we need to put LOZ-AOL before OOT, and that just doesn't work for several reasons. Ganon, the Triforce, the state of the country, and so forth.

Now, people complain that there's all these Zelda's existing before the story. Not really. We're dealing with thousands of years, possibly in the twenty-thousands, in some theories. And yet we have, let's see, seven or eight Zelda's throughout that entire history? BOO HOO. Notice all those Zelda's exist around the same time as Link? Notice all those Zelda's have prophetic power? Why haven't people complained about EVERY hero being named Link? Probably because they all show heroic attributes. What about Zelda? Let's look at TMC for a minute, shall we? Around the end? Link and Elzo are about to find out where the Light Force is, and the ancient, ages old stained glass says it's in Zelda and her bloodline. How can this work without the Sleeping Zelda story? Either the glass is prophetic, or the Zelda who received it....reincarnates!

Just like Link! >_> and yet Link is always named Link. One big coincidence! Oh My God! This might make a good fanfiction. It could be possible that with Zelda's prophetic powers, they started a tradition to test the females in the bloodline for prophetic powers (like in that M&M's commercial with the baby choosing one of the balls.) and if she passes, OMG A ZELDA People are so ready to accept Sleeping Zelda, and yet those same people are ok with disregarding the Master Sword line in LTTP. Gonna stay away from the issue of being true or false, but if you're going to insist that we have to follow Sleeping Zelda word for word, you have to do that for all story elements. You can't discriminate. The same works in vice versa.

[Fyxe]

And obviously, if you follow every single element word by word, *nothing* works if you want a timeline.

[FDL]

I'm going to have to go with Fatgoron on this one. The King did say he was like Ganon; forever clinging to the past instead of acknowledging the present and future. Tetra probably looked just like his poor daughter, or he was hoping beyond hope that the Triforce of Wisdom would put his daughter's memories and spirit in Tetra's own. Either THAT, or her name was always Zelda and she only took on Tetra as a pirate alias (like Redbeard.) I mean, Tetra does have half of the Triforce of Wisdom. (or did, whatever). She knows more than she lets on. She knew some stuff about Ganon and the Master Sword, and she was obviously aware of the Hero of Time's connection to the Triforce and where it might be hidden.

The Sleeping Zelda thing is really outdated. I know we can all agree that Nintendo has to address this. Now, the only safe place to put the Sleeping Zelda story without any (big) problems is before LOZ. And if you want to get rid of all problems outright, we need to put LOZ-AOL before OOT, and that just doesn't work for several reasons. Ganon, the Triforce, the state of the country, and so forth.

Now, people complain that there's all these Zelda's existing before the story. Not really. We're dealing with thousands of years, possibly in the twenty-thousands, in some theories. And yet we have, let's see, seven or eight Zelda's throughout that entire history? BOO HOO. Notice all those Zelda's exist around the same time as Link? Notice all those Zelda's have prophetic power? Why haven't people complained about EVERY hero being named Link? Probably because they all show heroic attributes. What about Zelda? Let's look at TMC for a minute, shall we? Around the end? Link and Elzo are about to find out where the Light Force is, and the ancient, ages old stained glass says it's in Zelda and her bloodline. How can this work without the Sleeping Zelda story? Either the glass is prophetic, or the Zelda who received it....reincarnates!

Just like Link! >_> and yet Link is always named Link. One big coincidence! Oh My God! This might make a good fanfiction. It could be possible that with Zelda's prophetic powers, they started a tradition to test the females in the bloodline for prophetic powers (like in that M&M's commercial with the baby choosing one of the balls.) and if she passes, OMG A ZELDA People are so ready to accept Sleeping Zelda, and yet those same people are ok with disregarding the Master Sword line in LTTP. Gonna stay away from the issue of being true or false, but if you're going to insist that we have to follow Sleeping Zelda word for word, you have to do that for all story elements. You can't discriminate. The same works in vice versa.

For the record, the MS sleeping forever was probably just for added drama to say Link killed Ganon forever, which isn't true in most theories.

[Doopliss]

Showsni, just one question: why can't there be any games that involve the Triforce of Courage between the Sleeping Zelda events and AoL?

[Fyxe]

I think he means that because the Triforce of Courage was hidden in Hyrule (in nthe Great Palace) and it wasn't discovered until AoL.

And don't any of you give me that whole crap about the king not writing the letter that reveals the location of the Triforce of Courage. That's just blatantly ignoring the bleedin' obvious.

[Crazy Penguin]

The sleeping Zelda cannot come before the first Zelda games because the Triforce was not removed from the Sacred Realm until OoT, however in the story it is in Hyrule, owned by the king and seems to have been there for some time.

The sleeping Zelda also cannot be the Zelda from OoT, the backstory does not connect, clearly.

So, basically, there HAS to be another Zelda before the sleeping Zelda story occurs, meaning it's a moot point anyway.

-----
JABUN:

(Tell me, Hyrule King...
Have you learned the whereabouts of the
one who carries on the bloodline of the
princess, Zelda?)


KING OF RED LIONS:

...I believe I have.


JABUN:

(That is well. You must protect Zelda.
She cannot be permitted to fall into the
hands of Ganon.

I am counting on you!)
---

Fyxe has hit the nail straight on the head.

The first and foremost reason that Tetra is called Zelda when she's princessified is because Hyrule's princess has always been called Zelda in every other game. The above quoted conversation shows simply that the king and Jabun are using "Zelda" as shorthand for "the girl who carries Zelda's bloodline".

Showsni, just one question: why can't there be any games that involve the Triforce of Courage between the Sleeping Zelda events and AoL?

Cliff notes version of AoL's backstory:

- King rules over Hyrule with the Triforce
- King dies
- Prince inherits incomplete Triforce - Courage is missing
- Prince hears from hired wizard that his sister Zelda knows the whereabouts of Courage
- They try to get her to talk
- Angry wizard casts a sleeping spell on Zelda and then dies
- Prince is sad and declares that all royal maidens shall be named Zelda

HUNDREDS OF YEARS LATER

- Link gets a Triforce mark on his hand
- Impa tells Link the story and gives him an old scroll written in an ancient language
- Link can magically read it
- The author of the scroll says that he left the Triforces of Power and Wisdom to the kingdom, but has hidden Courage
- He explains what the bearer of the Triforce mark must do to recover the Triforce of Courage - ie, what the player must do to complete the game, defeat the temple bosses etc

So basically, the king hid the Triforce of Courage and set up a mega death trap around it. Nobody knew where the heck the Triforce of Courage was when the king died, except Zelda, who got put into a magical coma. Hundreds of years later Link link reads the king's secret letter and goes through the mega death trap and finds the Triforce of Courage.

[Showsni]

I'm not saying that no princesses called Zelda must come before the Sleeping Zelda story; I'm only saying that the KoRL wouldn't call Tetra Zelda unless it was after the SZ story. You say that he calls her that because he is reminiscent of his own daughter?
But Jabun, too, calls her Zelda - why doesn't he stay with calling her "the one who carries on the bloodline of the princess, Zelda?" The only reason to change Tetra's name is the SZ story.

EDIT: Posted at the same time as Crazy Penguin.

As to every princess being called Zelda, without the SZ story they haven't been called Zelda. They are only called Zelda if the SZ story is taken into account. If they were called Zelda anyway, there would be no point for the king's decree in the AoL backstory.

[Crazy Penguin]

But Jabun, too, calls her Zelda - why doesn't he stay with calling her "the one who carries on the bloodline of the princess, Zelda?"

At first he does say that. The second time he doesn't. This suggests shorthand. It's quicker, it's easier, and it fulfills the need of a princess Zelda being in (almost) every Zelda game. The concept of the King clinging to the past also works with it.

[Fyxe]

She's also Zelda in the same way that Link is Link.

Crazy Penguin explained the whole thing pretty well, I believe.

[MikePetersSucks]

And obviously, if you follow every single element word by word, *nothing* works if you want a timeline.

Exactly. Sleeping Zelda should be no different.

Even if the Sleeping Zelda story applied to TWW, how would it survive the flood? They're making a new country with new traditions, and we know Zelda games come after TWW.

[mohammedali]

The first and foremost reason that Tetra is called Zelda when she's princessified is because Hyrule's princess has always been called Zelda in every other game. The above quoted conversation shows simply that the king and Jabun are using "Zelda" as shorthand for "the girl who carries Zelda's bloodline".

That seems like the most likely arguement. Even though I would like to believe it was a concequence of AoL BS, chances are it's unrelated (unless someone has proof to the contrary).

Cliff notes version of AoL's backstory:

- King rules over Hyrule with the Triforce
- King dies
- Prince inherits incomplete Triforce - Courage is missing
- Prince hears from hired wizard that his sister Zelda knows the whereabouts of Courage
- They try to get her to talk
- Angry wizard casts a sleeping spell on Zelda and then dies
- Prince is sad and declares that all royal maidens shall be named Zelda

HUNDREDS OF YEARS LATER

- Link gets a Triforce mark on his hand
- Impa tells Link the story and gives him an old scroll written in an ancient language
- Link can magically read it
- The author of the scroll says that he left the Triforces of Power and Wisdom to the kingdom, but has hidden Courage
- He explains what the bearer of the Triforce mark must do to recover the Triforce of Courage - ie, what the player must do to complete the game, defeat the temple bosses etc

It doesn't explicitly say anything about the ToC not being inherited by the Prince. I know we've had this conversation a million times, so I don't want to go on about this, but the fact is that the above 'abbreviation' makes assumptions that may not be true.

Even if the Sleeping Zelda story applied to TWW, how would it survive the flood? They're making a new country with new traditions, and we know Zelda games come after TWW.

Firstly, we do not know if they did make a new country with new traditions - this is all fanfic. There is every chance that the tradition would hold as Zelda would most likely ask why the hell the King calls her Zelda, not Tetra. Secondly, some people have put TWW as the last game (with TP as a big question mark), so we don't know if it is not the last (not that it matters to this point at all).

Mohammed Ali

EDIT: Just reread the quote that Fyxes posted an noted the comma use. Based on that comma use, Jabun is asking the King if he has found a girl named Zelda who is of the bloodline of the Princess. This is very different to what we all thought it said before, i.e. Jabun asking the King if he has found a girl who is of the bloodline of the Princess Zelda. Hence, there may be more in this than was previously thought, as Jabun calls Tetra Zelda without any obvious reason.

[Fyxe]

mohammedali, we know that at least *a* great king sealed the Triforce of Courage away. Judging from the backstory, and the fact that the scroll was handed down with the sleeping Zelda and The Legend of Zelda itself, I think it's perfectly safe to assume that the king is the same king from the backstory and thus Zelda knew about the Triforce of Courage and thus that was what the prince was after. To ignore this would be blinding yourself to the obvious. For example, when you read a book, do you need it to explain *exactly* what is going on when it's blatantly implying one simple solution?

Anyway, as for the comma use, you're reading way too much into it. There's nothing to suggest that that comma there doesn't mean the princess was called Zelda. In fact, it would be less grammatically correct to assume that the 'Zelda' is different from the princess he just mentioned.

[Fatgoron]

I've been trying to read this all, but I keep getting distracted by memories of the particular anatomical configuration of the Doug Winger character shown in Fyxe's avatar.

I think I've taken it all in.
With timelines, everything is dependent upon so many other things, so you can't say for certain, that the only reason is the SZ story, it's just that that makes the most sense in certain contexts.
Honestly, I think it may have been the intention, at least initially, to have had the SZ story as the first part of the Zelda continuity. Of course, they then made aLttP and OoT, and have screwed up that possibility, so they made the changes to the story in the GBA re-release, which cleans things up a bit, but in doing so makes the SZ story basically redundant within certain contexts.

Since it's something that has been revised, and was never planned that far in advance in the first place, it seems reasonable to me that it should be treated with a far greater degree of flexibility than something that remains more consistent throughout the series, like the Triforce's origin as established in aLttP.

[Fyxe]

I've been trying to read this all, but I keep getting distracted by memories of the particular anatomical configuration of the Doug Winger character shown in Fyxe's avatar.

Be thankful, she's one of the *tame* ones. That Doug guy has issues.

Actually in the pic I took this from there's nothing particularly anatomically 'odd' shown. Apart from the whole dog thing, of course.

Honestly, I think it may have been the intention, at least initially, to have had the SZ story as the first part of the Zelda continuity. Of course, they then made aLttP and OoT, and have screwed up that possibility, so they made the changes to the story in the GBA re-release, which cleans things up a bit, but in doing so makes the SZ story basically redundant within certain contexts.

You're right, they did effectively make the SZ story a moot point with the release of ALttP (but the sleeping Zelda story never states there were not Zeldas before 'the' Zelda, so it doesn't directly contradict it). However, don't put *too* much emphasis on the 'changes' for the GBA re-release, there really are hardly any. They just got rid of some annoying stuff like the 'Zelda is your...' and clarified terms (like 'wise men' becoming 'Sages') to make things more consistent.

The rest of the story is intact, although of course there's the addition of the Palace of the Four Sword, which may or may not be important when related to the FS group of games.

[Doopliss]

I think he means that because the Triforce of Courage was hidden in Hyrule (in nthe Great Palace) and it wasn't discovered until AoL.

And don't any of you give me that whole crap about the king not writing the letter that reveals the location of the Triforce of Courage. That's just blatantly ignoring the bleedin' obvious.

There is no way in which we can know in what time the scroll was written exactly, and the Sleeping Zelda events and the scroll don't seem to be related at all, so don't fanfic.

Now, if TWW goes after AoL, ALttP has also to go before them, so how do you explain that Link uses the Master Sword in TWW?

[Fyxe]

I'm not fanficcing. The scroll was written by the guy who put the Triforce of Courage in the Great Palace, correct?

Yet it was the ancient king that put all the foes like Iron Knuckles in the palaces.

Hmmmm, my spider sense is tinglin'.

[Showsni]

Yes, Link does use the Master Sword in TWW, which is after ALttP. The line: "The Master Sword Sleeps forever" is wrong. It doesn't. It's just as wrong as 'Link Plays With BowWow!' , and pretty much the same kind of line - a caption for a photo/scene. The master sword is used again immediately in KnS for a start, which, even if it's not canon, shows the creators viewed that line as merely dramatic impact.

[Doopliss]

Fyxe, I'm saying that you're speculating that the father of Sleeping Zelda is the one that wrote the scroll when there is nothing to prove it.

Showsni, this time I disagree completely with you. You can't just ignore such a direct statement, FOREVER is literal, simply the Master Sword can't be used after ALttP.

[mohammedali]

mohammedali, we know that at least *a* great king sealed the Triforce of Courage away.  Judging from the backstory, and the fact that the scroll was handed down with the sleeping Zelda and The Legend of Zelda itself, I think it's perfectly safe to assume that the king is the same king from the backstory and thus Zelda knew about the Triforce of Courage and thus that was what the prince was after.  To ignore this would be blinding yourself to the obvious.  For example, when you read a book, do you need it to explain *exactly* what is going on when it's blatantly implying one simple solution?

I've gone over this a million times, and I don't think it''s all that productive to go into this in detail. The explination above is your view on how the events go but not the canon. I understand the logic in what is implied but this is how I see it.
The original story as a stand alone may well have intended for the King to be the same one that wrote the scroll, but as it was never explicitly said they were the same, the writers most likely decided that they could place other games before by arguing that the scroll was written later. This makes more sence to me than to say that all games that predate AoL (which is everything except LoZ) have a princess called Zelda in that game by pure coincidence.
However, as I always say, choose which you want to believe. Just don't claim either of these ideas are fact, as the truth is that we just don't know. Now, to go back on topic...

Anyway, as for the comma use, you're reading way too much into it.  There's nothing to suggest that that comma there doesn't mean the princess was called Zelda.  In fact, it would be less grammatically correct to assume that the 'Zelda' is different from the princess he just mentioned.

No. The comma there, unambiguously means that Jabun is calling Tetra Zelda, and the princess whos bloodline she is is unnamed. This isn't me reading too much into it, it's just me reading it in standard English. Therefore, unless there is a translation error, I think Showsni has a point.

Mohammed Ali

[MikePetersSucks]

Firstly, we do not know if they did make a new country with new traditions - this is all fanfic. There is every chance that the tradition would hold as Zelda would most likely ask why the hell the King calls her Zelda, not Tetra. Secondly, some people have put TWW as the last game (with TP as a big question mark), so we don't know if it is not the last (not that it matters to this point at all).

"It shall not be Hyrule, my child. It shall be YOUR land" and so forth. and yea, most of those people have no idea what they're talking about. There's evidence AGAINST games inbetween OOT and TWW.

Just reread the quote that Fyxes posted an noted the comma use. Based on that comma use, Jabun is asking the King if he has found a girl named Zelda who is of the bloodline of the Princess. This is very different to what we all thought it said before, i.e. Jabun asking the King if he has found a girl who is of the bloodline of the Princess Zelda. Hence, there may be more in this than was previously thought, as Jabun calls Tetra Zelda without any obvious reason.

That's what I've been thinking ^^

There is no way in which we can know in what time the scroll was written exactly, and the Sleeping Zelda events and the scroll don't seem to be related at all, so don't fanfic.

Not related at all? WTF?! The letter and the Princess are in the same backstory. The letter is in Sleeping Zelda's tomb. how the hell AREN'T they related?!

Fyxe, I'm saying that you're speculating that the father of Sleeping Zelda is the one that wrote the scroll when there is nothing to prove it.

Except that's it's completely obvious, and to think otherwise is just jackassery

[SOAP]

I think this all hypocritical. The people who say the SZ story can't come before all the games and just the backstory to LoZ-AoL are pretty much the same people who claim OoT has to be the Imprisoning War of ALttP's backstory when there's just as much inconsitencies as saying the Sleeping Princess is OoT Zelda or any Zelda before her, if not more so.

Damn, that last sentence was long.

Also, is it that hard yto believe that LoZ and AoL and the SZ Backstory could be squeezed inbetween OoT and TWW? We already know that TP can, despite what some British magazines say...

Also, people, stop being dicks to each other. It's not that serious.

[Doopliss]

MikePetersSucks, the fact that only the full Triforce is the only way in which Sleeping Zelda can come back to life doesn't mean that the scroll is related to her, Impa doesn't mention anything that implies it.

[Crazy Penguin]

Also, is it that hard yto believe that LoZ and AoL and the SZ Backstory could be squeezed inbetween OoT and TWW?

Link, do you know the legend of the Hero of Time? Once long
ago, he defeated Ganon and brought peace to the Kingdom of Hyrule...  A piece
of the Triforce was given to the Hero of Time and he kept it safe, much as
Zelda kept hers. That sacred piece is known as the Triforce of Courage. When
the Hero of Time was called to embark on another journey and left the land of
Hyrule, he was separated from the elements that made him a hero. It is said
that at that time, the Triforce of Courage was split into eight shards and
hidden throughout the land.

The Triforce of Courage was split into eight shards shortly after Ocarina of Time and remained that way up until The Wind Waker.

the Sleeping Zelda events and the scroll don't seem to be related at all

Long ago, when Hyrule was still one country, a great King was said to have used the Triforce to maintain order in Hyrule.

Yet, even the king was a son of man, and passed away when his lifespan was exhausted.

Then, the prince of the Kingdom became the next king, and was to inherit everything. However, when it came to the Triforce, he was only able to inherit it incompletely.

The prince sought for what he did not have, and searched everywhere, but he couldn't seem to find it.

This was written on that scroll.  

"To the person that will control the Triforce of the future. You will now be told the secret(s) of the Triforce. There are three kinds of Triforce. Namely "power," "wisdom" and "courage." When these three Triforce are joined together, its maximum power will be shown. Of the three, "power" and "wisdom" remain in this Kingdom and can be received. But the Triforce of "courage" I have hidden for a reason.

[Showsni]

I seem to recall that AoL was retconned in the GBA relesae to state that the king who owned the triforce wrote the letter.

As for the comma - "Tell me, Hyrule King...
Have you learned the whereabouts of the
one who carries on the bloodline of the
princess, Zelda?"

The comma could just mean that Zelda is the name of the princess, rather than being the one who carries on the bloodline of the princess. If it were meaning the one, then I'd expect something a bit stronger than a comma - a hyphen, maybe. Perhaps even a semi colon.

Showsni, this time I disagree completely with you. You can't just ignore such a direct statement, FOREVER is literal, simply the Master Sword can't be used after ALttP.

This is a different topic - I'll start a new thread for it. Though we must have loads of old ones...