161 replies to this topic

[arunma]

Give it to us. We were here first.

Yes, you were. But at least I have a clear memory of my baptism. Take that!

[arunma]

Aw, it's OK. Just because I was baptized with more water doesn't make me cooler. Actually, the water is quite warm.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Aw, it's OK. Just because I was baptized with more water doesn't make me cooler. Actually, the water is quite warm.

Maybe they had one of those immersion heaters for baptismal pools.
Source: http://www.chromalox...ro/page070.html

As I sit here typing this out, I'm currently looking at one that one of the lab members bought for this huge vat he's working on.

The New Testament is kinda iffy. It was instigated by Emperor Constantinople whom was more worried about power than the Christian religion.

Now if you look at the Old testament why do you think that only male homosexuality is forbidden? Why not female homosexuality? Is it some kind of sexist rule that discriminates females or males?

No.

Pre-scientific understanding of semen was that it was the male semen that contained all the biological essentials for life. With no knowledge of female ova and ovulation, it was assumed that all women did was provide incubating space. Thus the spilling of seed was considered a sin, because it was considered wasting of life.

Since the tribe from which the Judaeo-Christian religion first rose out of was a small minor tribe, trying to populate an area in which it was the minority, it would have made good sense to have created a law preventing the wasting of something that would help them expand their numbers.

Also, can you trust what Paul says? He says he was close to Jesus, but the only time he saw him was when he fell off a donkey on the route to Damascus and even then he could be lying and could have fallen off the donkey (and banged his head) before seeing Jesus instead of the other way round.

[arunma]

The New Testament is kinda iffy. It was instigated by Emperor Constantinople whom was more worried about power than the Christian religion.

Well first of all, the New Testament is a bit more reliable than the Old, simply because it isn't quite as ancient. Secondly, the New Testament itself has nothing to do with Constantine. It was written well before his time. You're talking about the canon, which is an entirely separate issue. The authenticity of the documents isn't at issue as far as Constantine goes.

Of by the way, Constantinople was the name of his capital. The emperor's name was Constantine.

Also, can you trust what Paul says? He says he was close to Jesus, but the only time he saw him was when he fell off a donkey on the route to Damascus and even then he could be lying and could have fallen off the donkey (and banged his head) before seeing Jesus instead of the other way round.

Yes, you can trust what Paul says. A lot of people these days, for some reason or another, trust everything that was written in the Gospels, but don't trust the rest of the New Testament. It has been proven that the same person who wrote the Gospel of Luke also wrote the book of Acts. So if you don't trust Paul, you'd better also throw out an entire Gospel.

Of all the apostolic writings, no church father or major heretic has ever questioned the writings of Paul. They were the earliest Christian Scriptures in existence (yes, predating even the Gospels), and they have always been a part of the New Testeament canon. Furthermore, the apostle Peter (2 Peter 3:16) says that Paul's letters are Scripture.

There are only a few fundamentals of the faith based on which we can charge people with heresy. I can safely say that no one can call himself a Christian if he rejects the epistles of Paul as Scripture.

[Alakhriveion]

Pre-scientific understanding of semen was that it was the male semen that contained all the biological essentials for life. With no knowledge of female ova and ovulation, it was assumed that all women did was provide incubating space. Thus the spilling of seed was considered a sin, because it was considered wasting of life.

I think I mentioned that.

Since the tribe from which the Judaeo-Christian religion first rose out of was a small minor tribe, trying to populate an area in which it was the minority, it would have made good sense to have created a law preventing the wasting of something that would help them expand their numbers.

This, not entrely accurate. It's a little more complicated than just trying to populate the region, Israel was actually the majority in many parts of the desert. The religions it came out of were strong on fertility, it was not. Also more complicated than that. I can go in to it... poorly.

[SOAP]

Uh, I know this is kinda late in the debate but I'm not, nor was I ever, Catholic. So why would I care about their laws? I was Baptist though. A long, long time ago. After that I switched back and forth between being Penacostal, an athiest, and wiccan. Right now I'm agnostic. If anyone cares.

Personally I don't see how feeling guilty and saying "I'm sorry Father, I'll never do that again. I promise." gets you right with God when you're just going to do it again. Nor do I believe it's good for your mental health. I had to leave my Baptist faith because I was constantly feeling guilty even for so much as thinking about being with a guy. Of course being gay and a raging hormonal male teenager I thought about gay sex pretty much... all the time. So I was feeling guilty... all the time. Being Baptist was hazardous to my health.

[Korhend]

eh, we're not much better.

[SOAP]

What about masturbation?

[Korhend]

thats a sin too

personally I agree with Sigmund Freud

The only thing you should be ashamed about masturbating, is doing it poorly

[Tekky]

Masturbation might have been considered a sin in the old testament (the whole spilling your seed argument, and the thing in Leviticus I think about how if semen passed from a mans body he was unclean until morning or something like that) but is it in the new testament?

[arunma]

Masturbation might have been considered a sin in the old testament (the whole spilling your seed argument, and the thing in Leviticus I think about how if semen passed from a mans body he was unclean until morning or something like that) but is it in the new testament?

Nope; nothing like that in the New Testament. By the way, the story about spilling seed refers to a guy who was obligated to impregnate his dead brother's wife (that was the law back then), and who pulls out because he doesn't want his brother to get credit for his "work." So the story doesn't really have anything to do with masturbation.

[arunma]

Of course, there is that thing in the New Testament about not lusting!

[Alakhriveion]

The Torah (Old Testament, whatever) also has another passage prohibiting masturbation. The idea is that any use of sexual organs for anything other than reproduction violates Abraham's pact wherein his decendants would be the Lord's.

Every sperm is sacred
Every sperm is good
Every sperm is needed
In your neighborhood
Every sperm is sacred
Every sperm is great
If a sper is wasted
God gets quite irate
Let the heathens spill theirs
Upon the dusty ground
God will make them pay
For each sperm that can't be found

[SOAP]

Of course, there is that thing in the New Testament about not lusting!

What if you masturbate without thinking of anyone in particular? What if you do just because you like the sensations?

That song sounds familar Alak. Where did I hear it from...?

[Alakhriveion]

That song sounds familar Alak. Where did I hear it from...?

It's Monty Python.

[SOAP]

Ah, I'm vaguely familar with them. They were popular among the forum debaters at NetGen.

[Alakhriveion]

Jus "Vaguely familiar?" Someone needs to be educated. Start a thread in Media if you really don't know.

[SOAP]

I've heard some their songs. I know who they are. I just don't have any of their stuff. But that doesn't mean anything. I'm obssesed with Maroon 5 and Gewn Stephani but I have none of their CD's either.

[Zythe]

Monty Python are comedians though... so they don't release CDs. Just comedy shows... which I've never seen *cowers*

[SOAP]

Doesn't Jeff Foxworthy have a CD? Or was it some other redneck comedian? And by stuff I meant videos, posters, stuff like that.

[Alakhriveion]

*smacks you both, once for a reason you both share, and twice more each, but for seperate reasons*

OK, enough of that. Back on topic.

[Doopliss]

The Torah (Old Testament, whatever) also has another passage prohibiting masturbation. The idea is that any use of sexual organs for anything other than reproduction violates Abraham's pact wherein his decendants would be the Lord's.

Every sperm is sacred
Every sperm is good
Every sperm is needed
In your neighborhood
Every sperm is sacred
Every sperm is great
If a sper is wasted
God gets quite irate
Let the heathens spill theirs
Upon the dusty ground
God will make them pay
For each sperm that can't be found

Torah ain't canon, is it? It was written by men who interpreted the scriptures.

By the way, everytime an heterosexual couple makes the love, millions of sperms are destroyed, normally, only one develops.

[Alakhriveion]

The Torah... you call it the "Old Testament."

And yes, I'm aware of that.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Torah ain't canon, is it? It was written by men who interpreted the scriptures.

By the way, everytime an heterosexual couple makes the love, millions of sperms are destroyed, normally, only one develops.

True, but they didn't know that back then.

[SOAP]

I don't really get the Old testament. It has things like "Unintentional Sins" which kinda defeat the whole purpose of a sin being knowing between right and wrong and willingly doing what is wrong. How is it a sin when you didn't know you were doing something wrong?

And the "every sperm is sacred" stuff is a load of crud. If that was true then we waste hundreds of sperm even when we conceive. Not all of them make it to the egg you know.

[Korhend]

I don't really get the Old testament. It has things like "Unintentional Sins" which kinda defeat the whole purpose of a sin being knowing between right and wrong and willingly doing what is wrong.

What kind of morality would allow unintentional things to be excused? Should drunk drivers be let off because they didn't mean it?