161 replies to this topic

[Vazor]

"Thou shalt not lie with man as with woman. It is abomination."

Yes, that's a quote direct from the old testiment. So nobody can claim it's not a sin.
And of course you can be forgiven for your sins, otherwise we'd all be screwed. Being gay doesn't make you a bad person, it's performing homosexual acts. It's still possible for even someone who performs gay acts to regain goodness if they repent. After all, love the sinner, hate the sin, right?

[Alakhriveion]

Wanchimaera said

Read Romans 1:26-27, I Corinthians 6:9-11, and Jude ch. 7. These tend to be the more popular references. Some do like to argue about the context of the passages, though.

OK, those are:

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

and
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor Sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

The last one, I'm not finding. Anyway, you mentioned context. ALL non-reproductive sex is prohibited. Even within marriage? Yep, I do believe that's the second circle of hell, isn't it? It also tells you to beat your wife, and that cutting the hair of your head offends god greatly. Ooh, know what else? It's not god talking. Check this, Alakhriveion 7:42

Shut up.

OK? Now, if we can add as we like to god's will, I don't want to hear another peep out of you.

Vazor, two things. One, it doesn't say abomination, closer to "misguided." Second, Leviticus also tells you not to eat pork or shrimp, not to shave, not to wear garments made of mixed fabric, and not to cut down olive trees when laying siege unto a walled city. I don't think you care about it that much, or bacon wouldn't sell so well.

[Doopliss]

Khuffie, why do you hide your racist opinions behind posts that seem to be just as messages to invite people to discuss about somethig your consider that will appear ridiculous to "normal" people, when what you really want is them to support your opinions because you don't want to express them directly? I really don't understand why you behave so untolerant towards gay people.

[Khuffie]

Voolmaroe said

Khuffie, why do you hide your racist opinions behind posts that seem to be just as messages to invite people to discuss about somethig your consider that will appear ridiculous to "normal" people, when what you really want is them to support your opinions because you don't want to express them directly? I really don't understand why you behave so untolerant towards gay people.

You better explain what you mean by that, and where you got that backwards theory.

[arunma]

Alakhriveion said

Ooh, know what else? It's not god talking.

Actually Alak, he does have you on that one. Whenever Paul or Jude (or any other apostle) says something in the Bible, the word is just as good as if it came out of Moses' mouth. Probably better, actually, since many Christians today don't believe that the Torah was really inspired by God. Since everyone in the church accepts the inspirational authority of the New Testament, and because the epistles are the most historically reliable Christian documents, you can't get more authentic than Romans, 1 Corinthians, or Jude. However, you can still argue that he's taking the verses out of context. In fact, I suggest that you do.

Oh by the way, the reason you can't find Jude chapter 7 is because it doesn't exist. Jude is only one chapter long. So I think he was referring to Jude verse 7, which says this.

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In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Of course, "sexual immorality" refers to adultry. So I'm not sure how you get homosexuality out of that.

[Zythe]

Weren't there theories saying that Jesus and John were gay with each other?

[Alakhriveion]

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Of course, "sexual immorality" refers to adultry. So I'm not sure how you get homosexuality out of that.

Also the incest and the gang-rape and the male rape and the masturbation- oh, and they were inhospitable hosts, too.

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Actually Alak, he does have you on that one. Whenever Paul or Jude (or any other apostle) says something in the Bible, the word is just as good as if it came out of Moses' mouth. Probably better, actually, since many Christians today don't believe that the Torah was really inspired by God. Since everyone in the church accepts the inspirational authority of the New Testament, and because the epistles are the most historically reliable Christian documents, you can't get more authentic than Romans, 1 Corinthians, or Jude.

Preaching- like that- can determine a moral direction for the religion, but it can't determine sin. For it to be sin, I need to KNOW that the translation I'm reading of the book that was written summarizing the events mentioned in a few books, most of them written a few hundred years after the fact, contains a self-referentially account of god SAYING it.

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In fact, I suggest that you do.

I did. Seed-spillin muthafuckas.

[arunma]

Alakhriveion said

Preaching- like that- can determine a moral direction for the religion, but it can't determine sin. For it to be sin, I need to KNOW that the translation I'm reading of the book that was written summarizing the events mentioned in a few books, most of them written a few hundred years after the fact, contains a self-referentially account of god SAYING it.

Well, Paul does quote God a lot when he quotes "...says Yahweh" phrases from the Old Testament. This isn't one of those cases. But it doesn't really matter, because church tradition says that anything Paul or Jude says is directly from God (except for the one time Paul says that what he's saying is his own opinion).

Zythe said

Weren't there theories saying that Jesus and John were gay with each other?

Yeah, but there are also theories that pigs can fly.

[Alakhriveion]

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because church tradition says

It also says a lot of things about burning heretics. But I digress... painfully.

[Zythe]

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Yeah, but there are also theories that pigs can fly.

I'm sure there aren't .

[arunma]

Alakhriveion said

It also says a lot of things about burning heretics. But I digress... painfully.

Good thing most churches have renounced those traditions. Anyway, 1 Thessalonians 5:21 says to "test all things. Hold on to the good." So if the church develops traditions that work, we keep them. If we develop sucky traditions, we toss them. It's quite a bit like your Mishnah, actually.

[Korhend]

Khuffie said

You better explain what you mean by that, and where you got that backwards theory.

Because, taken out of context, your post kinda sounds like that, you might want to edit it to clarify. Voolmaroe, this has been split from a post mourning Dresden where thousands of german civilians were killed for no reason other then they were ruled by the Nazi regime.

[Wanchimaera]

Alak, you just mentioned that it wasn't mentioned in the Bible. I was just providing three of the more popular references in the New Testament that people use to defend their disapproval of homosexuality. I wasn't preaching.

Note that the I Corinthians passage looks a lot different when you use the KJV. The New KJV specifically calls them homosexuals. So does the NIV. What version did you get that from, or did you just take out the words homosexual offenders?

Here's the KJV version of the Romans passage:
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

[arunma]

The Greek word used here is arsenokoites, and there's some question as to whether an "abuser of oneself with mankind" is really a homosexal or not.

[Zythe]

It could be someone who harms themselves or someone who masturbates.

[Wanchimaera]

Actually that wasn't the part of the verse that I was pointing to. In the New KJV, the words "effiminate" and "male prostitutes", were replaced with the word "catamites".

http://dictionary.re...arch?q=catamite

[Zythe]

Wait! Zeus was gay? Or bi?

[Wanchimaera]

That's exactly what I thought when I saw it .

[Alakhriveion]

Wanchimeara, arguing English won't get you very far in a Greek text. The word isn't "Homosexual."

[arunma]

No...the word is arsenokoites, which is what we should probably be arguing.

[Wanchimaera]

I wasn't clear. I was talking about the word that was replaced in the New KJV, written in English. It had nothing to do with the Greek origins of the text.

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The word isn't "Homosexual."

Considering the fact that the word wasn't "invented" until the 19th Century, I'd think not, too.

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No...the word is arsenokoites, which is what we should probably be arguing.

Honestly, I don't think it's referring to homosexuals, but there are many who do. That's the whole reason I brought up the three passages in the first place, not necessarily to argue.

[Alakhriveion]

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Honestly, I don't think it's referring to homosexuals, but there are many who do.

Let them handle it.

[Vazor]

All in all, the bible does represent homosexuality in a negative light, so anyone who believes in the bible believes that homosexuality is a sin. All these branches of Christianity really need to re-evaluate the bible and realize that they're letting unrepenting sinners preach.

[arunma]

Vazor20X6 said

All in all, the bible does represent homosexuality in a negative light, so anyone who believes in the bible believes that homosexuality is a sin. All these branches of Christianity really need to re-evaluate the bible and realize that they're letting unrepenting sinners preach.

Actually, the Bible says very little on homosexuality. I would say there's enough Biblical evidence to prove that marriage is a union between God, one man, and one woman. But a lot of the other stuff people say about homosexuals doesn't have all that much Scriptural support.

[Alakhriveion]

Well, if you want to read into marriage, it also says a woman becomes property.

[Wanchimaera]

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Actually, the Bible says very little on homosexuality.

Do you think that it needed to? It's not like they had gay pride parades on the streets of Jerusalem. I'm not sure that it was a topic that had to be dealt with at the time.

[Alakhriveion]

Oh, at the time of Rome? Homosexuality was more than prominant, it was the norm!

[Korhend]

arunma said

But it doesn't really matter, because church tradition says...

Church tradition also says [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] about apostolic succession

[arunma]

Korhend said

Church tradition also says [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] about apostolic succession

Yeah, but who are the rightful successors to the apostles? Is it the Bishop of Rome? Is it the Greek Orthodox Church? Maybe it's the Episcopalian church, which also claims spiritual descendance from the apostles.

Don't get me wrong, I love Catholics. I just don't interpret church tradition the same way you do.