214 replies to this topic

[Joeb Wan Kenobi]

None of you seem to live in England and know whats its like. Are ancestors have fought long and hard to protect are homeland and at the minute its full of Muslims who generally come to the country and respect are way of life however an increaingly large amount have had enough of this. There are people inside our country who dont like it and feel they have the right to change it. If they dont like it no one is making them stay and they have no right to come over here and take it over and kill us because were not Muslim. As Winston Churchhill said "We must defend our island home."

[Joeb Wan Kenobi]

Not really (well its hard no to) what made you think that?

[Joeb Wan Kenobi]

Its been interesting debating with you. But ive given up on being tolerant.

[Korhend]

1.Let's start with the word "Islamo-Fascism." Actually, I think that's enough. Whats so offensive about that?

I've Already Explained this, What ties do fascists have to muslims? I really wanna here this. Being as out of all the fascist states in existance, ever, none has been muslim ran or held a muslim majority. The only middle eastern Fascist party was Kataeb, which was christian, and broke up 20 years ago. So really, I wanna here this, how do you equate fascism with Islam.

4.Britain fought of communism during the cold war.

First of all, Shows how good a concept of history the BNP had, Lenin died from syphilis in the 20s, the cold war did not begin until the late forties. And second of all there was no fighting in the cold war, especially on britains behalf.

None of you seem to live in England and know whats its like.

Again "I can tell you don't live in England because you don't agree with me, and everyone in England always agrees with me." That about sums up your logic?

"We must defend our island home."

Winston Churchill was also a racist, euginicist, warmonger who advocated infanticide. He also liked to hang out with Joseph Stalin.

[Joeb Wan Kenobi]

Why cant Muslims be facists?
Ok so the BNP was wrong about Stalin and Lenin but Britain did fight in an uncoventional manner as did the U.S etc in the Cold War. Yes I do live in England and a lot of your friends are either very naive or live in an area without a Muslim or immigration problem. I dont think saying the man who saved Europe is "a racist, euginicist, warmonger who advocated infanticide is a very good idea." will go down down very well.

[Korhend]

Why cant Muslims be facists?

First of all there is an extra 's' in Fascism, and its always capitalized. First of all, depending on your interperetation, point 13 of the fascist social doctrine states a distinct favor of Roman Catholicism, but exceptions are open to interperatation, I for one feel fascists can be of any religion. However you will note, I never said the could not be I said they are not, No fascist states currently exist in the middle east or anywhere else. No Islamic nation has ever formed a fascist government. Lebanon had a Falangist government for a month, but that was a strongly Christian. So now its back to your court to explain what connection we have to Islam.

Ok so the BNP was wrong about Stalin and Lenin but Britain did fight in an uncoventional manner as did the U.S etc in the Cold War. Yes I do live in England and a lot of your friends are either very naive or live in an area without a Muslim or immigration problem. I dont think saying the man who saved Europe is "a racist, euginicist, warmonger who advocated infanticide is a very good idea." will go down down very well.

Why? Because its true? He favored execution of babies found to be blind, deaf or retarded. He diliberately instigated the war in the pacific. He kept countless nations repressed and he was a diehard supporter of Eugenics.

[Alakhriveion]

I dont think saying the man who saved Europe is "a racist, euginicist, warmonger who advocated infanticide is a very good idea." will go down down very well.

Oh, he didn't save Europe. The man who saved Europe was a psycotic racist dictator.

None of you seem to live in England and know whats its like

Actually, quite a few people here live in England. You seem to be the odd one.

Why cant Muslims be facists?

Just as communism can't exist with a state, Fascism can't exist without one.

Are ancestors have fought long and hard to protect are homeland and at the minute its full of Muslims who generally come to the country and respect are way of life however an increaingly large amount have had enough of this. There are people inside our country who dont like it and feel they have the right to change it. If they dont like it no one is making them stay and they have no right to come over here and take it over and kill us because were not Muslim.

Geesus, it's like talking to a brick wall.

[Chukchi Husky]

x_x  you've been listening to too much of what tony blair has to say, haven't you?

That reminds me of a joke about labour camps...

Why cant Muslims be facists?

I think you are confusing fascist with fundamentalist...

[Joeb Wan Kenobi]

To Korhend- So your discriminating against Muslims saying they cant be facists. Just because they dont call themselves facists doesnt mke them not facists. Ok so you dont like the man who saved the country I live in well that hardley suprises me.
To Alakhriveion- So you think Hitler saved Europe well im sure to take all of your opinions seriously.Do you live in England? Explain more clearly why Muslims cant be facists. And what do you mean it's like talking to a brick wall.

[Selena]

For the.... whatever time this is, he's NOT SAYING THAT A MUSLIM CANNOT BE A FACSIST. Anyone can be a Fascist *points to Korhend*, like him for instance. He's saying that there is no Muslim Fascist state. Unless you're saying a good number of Muslims who happen to be Fascist have united together to form their own political party, you don't really have a backing for your Fascist argument.


How about instead of us telling you why they cannot be fascists, how about you tell us why they are Fascist in the first place. You still have demonstrated why you're calling them as such, so it's hard for someone to argue back.

[Joeb Wan Kenobi]

There are facist,fundementalist and extremist muslims in our country not in political partys but but in organizations that are planning the downfall of country and all the non muslims in it.

[Selena]

Again, how are they Fascist?

[Chukchi Husky]

Fascism.

Common to all fascist movements was an emphasis on the nation (race or state) as the centre and regulator of all history and life, and on the indisputable authority of the leader behind whom the people were expected to form an unbreakable unity... The Italian word fascio (derived from the Latin fasces, a bundle of rods with an ax in it) symbolized both aspects: the power of many united and obeying one will and the authority of the state, which was the supreme source of law and order and all national life... In all its forms, fascism displays certain key features. The absolute primacy of the state is the chief of these, and from it follow others: the submission of the individual will to the unified will of the people as expressed by the state and entire obedience to a usually charismatic leader, who embodies the state. In addition, martial virtues, combat, and conquest are celebrated, while liberal democracy, rationalism, and bourgeois values are denigrated. An element of mysticism commonly pervades fascist expressions of the sanctity of the state or the race and declarations of its destiny, as in Mussolini's prophecy of a “rebirth” of the Roman Empire.

[Joeb Wan Kenobi]

They are what we call fundamentalist facists who are trying to create fundamenatilst facist state similar to what seen in Germany during WW2 execpt replacing Nazi Ideals with Islamic ones.

[Kwicky Koala]

They are what we call fundamentalist facists who are trying to create fundamenatilst facist state similar to what seen in Germany during WW2 execpt replacing Nazi Ideals with Islamic ones.

Evidence?

[Joeb Wan Kenobi]

I know you all want evidence but you just have to live in some parts of England to feel and see what its like. Theres muslims about plotting to kill the non-muslims in a Jihad in this country. I dont expect you to belive me so Ill have a look round for a way I can prove it to you over the internet.

[Kwicky Koala]

I do live in England. London to be precise. The rampaging hook-handed terrorists have yet to arrive on my doorstep.

[Joeb Wan Kenobi]

As I said some parts of the country but living in England Im sure youve encountered or heard of Muslims who think there better than Non-Muslims and are planning our downfall.

[Dryth]

I dont expect you to belive me so Ill have a look round for a way I can prove it to you over the internet.

We don't believe you because you're just bullshitting. You're also a hypocrite, in reference to your continued attempts to negatively characterize "fundamentalist fascist muslims."

The BNP's press releases level generalized accusations against all muslims characterizing them all as irrational extremists out to undermine British society, just as Nick Griffin himself does with the Jews. They blame the secularization of society on muslim interest groups, ignoring the fact that globalized secularization has found its strength in nations with comparatively low muslim populations. It's xenophobia and racism, and we don't need to be from England to understand it: Every developed nation's gone through it in the past 100 years, including England itself, and most phased it out long ago when they realized that "seperate but equal" is a farce.

In North America, we call people like you racist dipshits. But you wouldn't understand, not being from North America.

[Joeb Wan Kenobi]

Well lets see these press releases then. Weve had more than our fair share of immigrants and its hard yet not impossible to live with people from a religion that states its better than us.

[Korhend]

They are what we call fundamentalist facists who are trying to create fundamenatilst facist state similar to what seen in Germany during WW2 execpt replacing Nazi Ideals with Islamic ones.

Okay spanky, you wanna do this thing lets go. Apparently reading isn't your forte so for the second time allow me to reiterate, I never said Muslims couldn't be fascists. I encourage them to become fascists wholeheartedly, but that does not mean by any nature that they are in fact fascist. No major or hell even minor fascist parties exist in muslim nation, except for the one in Lebenon, which is a highly christian party. Now you don't seem to have a very clear idea of what Islam, or Fascism is. So let me clear up this gross amalgamation.
1) Internationalism. Your generalisation of Muslims seems to focus around Al-Queda, who is intent on taking several states, from egypt to pakistan and fusing them into one. Fascism accepts and fully reveres the sovereignty of independant nations. Soviet style fusing is incompatible with it. Period. That alone can show this.
2) Corporativismo. The necessary economic component of Fascism, present in every fascist state, yet never once was implemented in any Muslim Nation, ever. Thats two completely incompatible features.
3) Religion. As stated depending on the Interperetation of Fascism you are using, this can mean different things. The doctrine does state a tendency towards Catholicism, but specifies that the state and the church are disunited. This shoots down a couple more states, which were already disqualified for the above reasons.
These are just the most noticable and easily quatifiable examples, I could go on at length the intracacies of the Fascist system, the clear and jutting differences with current political philosophy in the muslim world, and generally why you have little Idea what your talking about.

[Joeb Wan Kenobi]

Ok so prehaps facist as in the traditional sense is the wrong word but what I mean is a fundementalist regime where the state is the religious organisation. I apologise If you dont understand but thats not my problem. Anyway the point of my argument is that there are muslim groups in the U.K who are incapeable of living with non-muslims or najis(impure) as they call us and have decided to take part in a holy war or jihad to remove of from this country because the quarn instructs them to not live with non-muslims (See here http://www.usc.edu/d...mt.html#009.023)

Ive got to finish debating with you for tonight as its getting very late here. So hopefully we can continue this tomorrow.

[Alakhriveion]

So you think Hitler saved Europe well im sure to take all of your opinions seriously.

No, Stalin. Read, dummy!

Well lets see these press releases then. Weve had more than our fair share of immigrants and its hard yet not impossible to live with people from a religion that states its better than us.

Actually, Christianity is the only religion which has a "We're right, you're wrong" ideal. Muhammad said that all religions come, however misguidedly, from god, especially Judaism and Christianity. Judaism only applies to Jews. I'd go into Buddhism and Hinduism, but I'm getting into another topic there.

In North America, we call people like you racist dipshits.

I'd use something harsher, but that'd violate the rules, specifically, I rule I wrote, making it HOLY.

[Korhend]

Ok so prehaps facist as in the traditional sense is the wrong word but what I mean is a fundementalist regime where the state is the religious organisation. I apologise If you dont understand but thats not my problem.

Wait a minute, I had to just explain to you the basic premise of the words coming out of your mouth to you, and I don't understand.

[Dryth]

Well lets see these press releases then.

Negative Muslim generalizations in the first paragraph. Same. Singling out Muslim extremists. Islam-linking fearmongering. And, of course, our friend the "Islamo-Fascism" article, which, as with most of the listed articles, takes advantage of our other friends "False Correlation" and "Selective Sampling." Five articles, all on the first page of the website alone, and all that I'd asked you to read previously. Despite your personal belief that such statements aren't offensive, you should by this point be capable of enough empathy to pick out what others might deem offensive. Since Muslims are brought up most consistently throughout the BNP's negatively targetted releases, we can also infer that they're one of the specific groups to which the various restrictive party policies apply, such as, as discussed, the anti-immigration policies, along with the juvenile ultra-conservative tunnel vision toward internalized priorities. Even George Bush pushes the importance of participation in the global community, for better or worse.

And heck, since I've been digging a bit deeper, Doctor Strangelove anyone? And, since I'm Canadian, I do think I have every right to call bluff on the likes of this (and you being British, I'll just ignore your opinion... that's how we play now, right?).

Of course, the Muslim bias is ironic given the fear of conflict resulting from multi-culturalism, the BNP's stance apparently not seeing the parallel in early-20th-century America.

I also see they share your logic of "select samples equals broad conspiracy!"

Of course, if there were any doubt. Good thing they claim they aren't anti-Muslim, though, only anti-"Islamification!" And good thing that, not only did they mispell Abdullah Yusuf Ali's name as one of their sources, but managed to "draw" meaning from his translation without basis in his actual translation.

Weve had more than our fair share of immigrants and its hard yet not impossible to live with people from a religion that states its better than us.

Open your mind and make a friend. I've never met someone so hostile in their faith that my friendship was rejected on the basis of them being superior in faith, nor have I met someone so self-righteous that they would compromise my friendship to lord their faith over me. And I'm a athiest, so I'd even understand if I were being pressured from all sides. On a personal level, you'll find the vast majority of people incredibly easy to get along with, regardless of their faith.

Having Muslim friends, I know that if Canada were hypothetically overtaken by Muslims, I would still find support through them. They're all good people, and would all take my concerns seriously if I thought that my personal ideals weren't being met, in the same way that I would take their concerns seriously if they came to me.

Maybe you don't get along with Muslims 'cause... like... you keep pulling bullshit like "You wouldn't understand because you aren't X!"

[arunma]

To Alakhriveion- So you think Hitler saved Europe well im sure to take all of your opinions seriously.

Dude, Alak might react violently in the presence of oxygen, but he's not one of those self-loathing Jews, so no, he clearly doesn't think very highly of Hitler. You misread his post.

[Oberon Storm]

Why argue? Most of us know this is all bullshit. Vast Muslim conspiracy my ass.

[arunma]

OK guys, you've worn out my patience for meaningless profanity. If you're going to use "naughty" words, give them some sort of meaning. Joeb, please start reading the posts of your opponents before you argue. Dryth, I never thought I'd have to reprimand you (you're so well behaved, most of the time), but please don't call anyone a dipshit. Jor-El, don't post just for the sake of saying "screw this." Contro posts need to have meaning.

Next person who violates the rules gets kicked in the nuts. Carry on, but I'll be keeping an eye on this discussion.

Also, Granite's probably going to split this thread (this has nothing to do with Christmas anymore). But don't worry, it should be seamless, and shouldn't affect the debate.