185 replies to this topic

[Twinrova]

Lena and Delphi have already made a lot of good points so I won't repeat what was already said, however I would like to make an additional point.

I really don't see how raping Sansa and making Theon watch is what was needed to spark a possible revenge plot. They already have plenty of motivation. Theon has been tortured to the point of seemingly no return and Sansa had her mother and brother murdered and her childhood home ransacked by the family she married into. That's enough right there to want revenge and from the way Sansa was acting during that dinner scene I really hoped revenge was where they were going. I'm disappointed they felt the need to throw in *another* Ramsay-fucking-sucks scene when they've already had so much. They could have had her fucking stab him. >:/

[Jasi]

It wasn't needed to spark a revenge plot and that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the plot could still have Sansa getting revenge, rather than having her whimper and fall over from eternal victimhood, which seems to be what most people are assuming will happen now.

 

Sansa stabbing Ramsay would have just ended up with her in the same place she was, or worse. She can't overpower him in hand-to-hand combat...

[Selena]

Rape-as-plot-fuel is extraordinarily lazy writing, too. So given the choice between two badly overused tropes, I'd rather not side with that one.

 

 

The writers were backed into a corner, but again -- they were the ones that intentionally CREATED the corner in the first place. Even if you don't like any of the scenarios I hastily posted above, they had countless options on how to handle this. Especially since they've already deviated so heavily from the books.

 

That's why I advocated a northern rebellion with Sansa at the center. Because it would have given Sansa an assertive plot line, and it could have avoided the marriage disaster all together. I didn't suggest that Stannis sweep in like a gallant knight and simply save her. The northern lords were meant to attend this wedding. And while at Winterfell, a lot of them are actively preparing for Stannis to show up and wreck the party. They dig pitfalls just outside the gates so that Bolton-loyal patrols fall in and break their necks. They chop up Frey guests and serve them in meat pies. All of that could have been at least partially coordinated by Sansa, had they done it on the show. She knows the layout of Winterfell better than anyone, after all.

 

Roose -- who has a healthy respect for the danger of weddings -- could have delayed the ceremony while he searched for the people responsible. This would buy everyone enough time for Stannis to get close. Sansa and the Stark loyalists then turn on the Boltons as Stannis starts to set up his army around the walls. Upon seeing distress inside, Stannis takes advantage of it and storms the gates.

 

Bam, Sansa is made Lady of Winterfell without having to be put through another traumatic storyline. Given that they've already deviated from the books, there's no GOOD reason why the Battle of Winterfell can't occur before the wedding.

 

 

 

 

Sure. Things could turn around later in the season. There could be some huge plot payoff later on. But I'm 95% sure that won't happen. Because they're following Jeyne's story fairly close so far, and Jeyne ultimately ends up with Stannis. I could be wrong. And I'll reserve full judgment until the end of the season. But as of right now, I am going to remain decidedly unhappy until I am proven wrong.

[Twinrova]

Well, I finally watched it. I have nothing further to add other than wow what a time they're having in Dorne.

 

 

I'm just gonna watch bird videos and try to forget this trainwreck of a season is happening. I don't have a lot of hope for the last 4 episodes, but HBO is welcome to prove me wrong, I guess. 

 

 

Edit: I guess I can try not to be such a spoilsport. The room of faces was neat, and a lot bigger and more elaborate than I imagined while I was reading. I literally just imagined a dusty little room with faces hanging off hooks on the walls, lmao.

Edited by Twinrova, 18 May 2015 - 07:35 PM.

[Veteran]

It must be a book-reader/non-book reader thing because I'm a non-reader and was not at all surprised Sansa was raped. It was as expected as Dani and Drogo.

I was disappointed though because I was certain this would be the moment Sansa turned on her littlefinger powers and when Ramsay ripped off her dress she instead spun around and fucked him. Ramsay would've liked it, it would remove any chance of further rape scenes and made Sansa's eventual murder of all things Bolton even sweeter and machiavellian.

[JRPomazon]

I was kinda in the same boat as Vet. The minute the wedding started, this seemed like the obvious route. Although, I hoped it would have turned to a delay tactic so spare Sansa from the immediate ... aftermath. More or less surprised she didn't manage to slip through the cracks this time like so many others but I suppose you can't have a lucky character in Game of Thrones. Still, if the show can make the Starks suffer in ANY possible way, they do almost instinctively because I imagine they were going for the outrage by making the more likable family go through so much grief. Or, and this is kinda upsetting to think about, they're trying to recreate the same shock and awe as the Red Wedding for viewership. So, are we going to also mention how bleeding uncomfortable it was for Theon to be forced to watch?

[Selena]

Yeah, I'm sure that none of the rapes were surprising or even all that upsetting for non-book readers. That's probably why showrunners keep adding in rape-for-shock-value, unfortunately. Because a lot of people watching are unfamiliar with source material, thus everything that happens seems like it "should" be there. So the backlash is buffered. I've see a lot of show-only people defend the scene. If I didn't know any better, I probably would have (begrudgingly) accepted the scene. Maybe it would have been better to remain in the dark for this particular scene.

 

Because it's pretty evident that the showrunners do stuff like this for viewership and "water cooler talk," if that term still exists. That's what really bothers me. That it gets used as a shock value tactic. Rape does exist in the books, to be sure, but it's not nearly so... erm... spotlighted. 

 

 

What happened to Jeyne Poole in the books is beyond awful, but even her abuse served a purpose of sorts. The Northern lords are present at the wedding, all believing that Jeyne is actually Arya. When they hear "Arya Stark" sobbing and screaming in pain on a regular basis, a lot of them get pissed off. Many of them start looking to Stannis as a means to forcibly boot the Boltons out of Winterfell, thus potentially shifting the power balance in Stannis' favor just before the battle.

 

I will be waiting to see if Sansa's mistreatment has a similar plot purpose, but since none of the Northern lords attended the wedding, I remain very skeptical. The next few episodes will be critical in determining the worth of this story arc. Because previous insert-sexual-abuse-here scenes (Dany and Drogo, Jaime and Cersei, Ros the Unfortunate Ginger Prostitute) were more or less played off and ignored soon after the violence was over.

[DarkJuno]

I haven't gotten to that part of the books yet, and while I'm not surprised by it happening, it did still seem a little unnecessary for everything. It didn't really make Ramsay any more despicable then he already was, and if you wanted to make Sansa suffer more, rape seems like the "easy" way out, which in and of itself is a horrifying thing to say. I don't know, there would've been better ways to get the point across, and heck, even just having it happen and maybe not linger as long as it did might've helped a bit. It wasn't as bad as how everyone seemed to imply before I saw it, but I still didn't much like it, and not in the way the viewer is "suppose" to either.

I don't know, I'll be a broken record with everything already said, but it felt like it was there just for the heck of it.

And not to pry too much in case I ever get off my butt and read faster, but is The Mountain dead? Nothing specific, just yay or nay, or "Don't know, books haven't said."

[Twinrova]

For DJ:

 

Spoiler

It's not explicitly stated but it is widely believed due to some pretty solid hinting that no, he is not dead. You'll know it when you read it, I think.

[Jasi]

There was that whole Frankenstein scene in the show too...

[Twinrova]

Hahahaha I'm fucking dumb, I somehow read "The Mountain" and misinterpreted that as the Hound.

I guess what I said still kind of applies tho, but the "hinting" with the Mountain is much more overt.

[DarkJuno]

Well, The Hound I kinda figured anyway. The Mountain with the whole body under the sheet thing I was just curious if that might've been a wacky show only or uncharted territory deal.

[Selena]

Yeah, the Mountain's heavily implied to still be alive, he's just going by an alias in the books.

 

Fun point: Reanimated Gregor may or may not be headless.

[Twinrova]

Naw that's definitely from the book.

[Twinrova]

Those bruises on Sansa's arms....... my poor baby. Shank his fucking neck already. I have a bad feeling she's gonna be the subject of even more abuse thanks to the bastard conversation... Ramsay doesn't take kindly to anyone calling him Snow... Sigh.

Good to see the Dorne scene was largely pointless again and that sexposition is all that matters. Seriously, what did that scene accomplish? Why poison Bronn at all? Surely they could come up with a better reason to show some titties? And while we're on the topic we're severely lacking in naked men this season. Come ONNNN. We've had like, what, 2 dongs total? Unbelievable.

I do enjoy whatshisface as the High Septon though. They really did a great job with casting him.


Book spoilers, very big book spoilers:

Spoiler

Could they have shown pouty faced Olly any more? I'm not getting the feeling that he's totally gonna be the first one to shank Jon, nope, they really need to hammer that one home a bit more. /s

[Selena]

I loved it when the hammer dropped on Cersei. That was one the scenes I've been waiting for all season, and Lena Headey's reaction was totally worth it. The ultimate "wait... what..... oh..... oh, shit" moment for her. Such a great shift in expressions.

 

Of all the changes they've made, I'm really glad they let Olenna Tyrell stick around just so we can squeeze as much goodness out of Diana Rigg as possible. She's been on point this season. As always. In fact, if there's one thing the show writers do well, it's catty dialogue. And the Olenna / Cersei / Margaery circle of sass does not disappoint in that regard.

 

Dorne is an utter trainwreck.

 

Prayer circle for Shireen. I don't see Stannis willingly sacrificing her, but Mel may go behind his back.

 

Aemon's death was okay for what it was, though it felt kind of abrupt to me.

 

Disappointed they added in yet another unnecessary rape scenario (which also isn't in the books) -- especially since it was primarily there to trigger Sam's heroic hulk mode, leading to a romance scene. The only consolation is that they didn't go all the way through with it. I wonder what they're going to do with Gilly and Sam, given how much their story has diverged from the novel. It doesn't look like they're going to do Sam's AFFC storyline.

 

 

@Rova about the big big finale spoiler:

 

Spoiler

Oh, yeah, I knew Olly was gonna be the first one to shed blood since his little confrontation with Jon.

[Masamune]

Spoiler

I hope when Olly stabs Jon, he does so while saying:

JON SNOW, YOU HAVE FAILED THIS NIGHT'S WATCH.

[Twinrova]

I thought maybe they would show Myrcella wearing the necklace and have Jaime notice it, and have that start off his "oh shit she lied, Cersei fuckin sucks" dealio but no... That wouldn't work, cuz even if she made up the threat she was still 100% right that Myrcella was in danger. Ugh I have no idea what they're trying to do.

I remember seeing a flash from a scene with Selyse on the ground looking hella upset from a trailer or whatever so it would not surprise me at all if Mel goes behind Stannis' back about Shireen. I really don't see Stannis willingly doing it. But then that begs the question, what will Stannis do with her when he finds out what she's done?? I would be kinda surprised if she snuffed it this season.


Bookie book stuff:

Spoiler

Can't tell what they're doin' with Sam. Maybe they'll finally send him off now that Aemon's dead? Maybe the Oldtown storyline doesn't lead anywhere, so they're keeping him at the Wall to witness Jon's stabbing for added dramatic effect?

Also.. Uh... Anybody else get Tower of Joy flashbacks with "Promise me, Theon"?

Disappointed that serving lady's only use was to show up flayed.

[Masamune]

Spoiler

Man it makes me sad to think any book things that are cut leads to the natural conclusion of "doesn't lead anywhere in the books". It paints the next few books as if it's all going to be meandering sidequests of no great importance.

I don't believe this personally, but it seems be the mindset in how things are being chosen for the show. Aegon's storyline, the Greyjoy uncles, the Brotherhood, the Lords of the Vale, and Oldtown plots will all play into the ending eventually. While it's possible their end results can be accomplished through some less interesting show variant, I don't think that any of them are leading nowhere. Each one of them is going to play an important part towards the conclusion of the story and the fate of Westeros. 

 

Really from reading ADWD/AFFC, the Dorne plotline is the one that actually does lead nowhere. Quentyn dies, Arianne's plot to crown Myrcella fails splendidly, and then Doran is like "YEAH I TOTALLY HAVE A REALLY COOL PLAN only it's like constantly failing because shit happens and I don't know how to adapt".

[Selena]

Poor serving lady. So much for the great northern conspiracy.

 

I would be very surprised if Melisandre dies this season. As one of the few characters who actually focuses on the real threat of the series, you'd think she'd stick around until shit really hits the fan. She could use magic to escape his wrath somehow, I suppose. Selyse doesn't care much for Shireen, so maybe she's distressed that something bad is happening to Melisandre? But then, Mel just said that she envisions herself walking along the battlements of Winterfell. I guess it could be as a prisoner.

 

It potentially feeds the book-theory (BIG SPOILERS) that....

 

Spoiler

Mel is going to sacrifice Shireen to resurrect Jon. If that happens, then it would definitely make sense to have Mel do something similar on the show -- although in this case, it's to alleviate the snowstorm around Winterfell. In fact, the show writers may have had Mel accompany Stannis to Winterfell purely so the two could have some big dramatic confrontation after the fact. But that leaves you to wonder how Jon will be resurrected.

 

 

@Masa:

Spoiler

I doubt most book subplots are leading nowhere. The Dornish stuff certainly seems irrelevant, and I doubt we'll hear much from the Vale lords again, but I think the vast majority of subplots are going to have some kind of lasting impact. I think show-cuts are a better indication of "who's going to die" rather than "which plot line is irrelevant." Given that the show is heavily streamlined, they don't want to waste time developing a lot of new characters (especially if they're gonna croak) -- so they just reallocate plot points to existing faces. 

 

Some book subplots are heavy on backstory and exposition, too, and show writers definitely don't like spending much time on that stuff. The importance of Jon Connington's character, for example, is largely told through exposition. 

 

Also, possibly, Hardhome. We're visiting it next episode, which marks a clear jump-ahead into uncharted territory, but it feels like they've cut its creepy backstory out.

[Selena]

News update: Casting for Season 6

 

I'll leave the link here. Spoilers for non-book readers. http://www.vanityfai...greyjoys-tarlys

 

 

Spoiler

* Balon apparently dies in the finale of S5

* Euron is Coming

* Victarion may possibly be cut

* Kingsmoot and Greyjoy stuff

 

* Randyll Tarly

* House Tarly in general

* They are doing the Oldtown plot after all, it sounds like

 

* Septon Meribald

* Which means Cleganebowl might be a thing

 

* Possibly another flashback scene of some kind -- possibly with young Ned?

 

* The rest of Arya's assassin stuff, transitioning into her Winds of Winter plot

 

* BENJEN IS IN THE FINALE OF SEASON 5?????????

[Twinrova]

Spoiler

Hmmm. Is the only evidence we have of Benjen being on the cast list for ep 10 from IMDB? Because supposedly it's very easy to edit that stuff so someone probably put it in there as a joke.

 

I'm genuinely surprised they're going forward with the Greyjoy stuff. I never expected to see Balon actually die since it's so late in the game. I thought they just forgot about them, rofl. Which would be a-okay with me, I never particularly cared for any part of the Dickbag Islands beyond Asha.

 

I'm sure Reddit is pissing itself with excitement over the possibility of Septon Meribald. It seems like every time I go on /r/asoiaf there's the 8,547th thread about how great his little speech is (and I mean, it is, I'm just tired of hearing about it, lol). I'm gonna laugh a lot if they don't include it. But yeah I suppose this means the Hound might have further relevance. If it is indeed for Cleganebowl I'm gonna be fuckin' mad lmao. I hate that theory. I just hate it. >:0

 

Hmmm.... Man. I'm not sure what relevant flashback scene they could have with Ned? If they're gonna do a flashback with Ned at all they should be doing the Tower of Joy but they'd be too old. I dunno!

Edited by Twinrova, 27 May 2015 - 12:45 PM.

[Selena]

Spoiler

It's a long speech, so I'm sure it'll be condensed or cut. The casting call could also be for the Elder Brother -- not Meribald. Or the show might merge the two together. It's hard to tell.

 

Yeah, Benjen being on the cast list is from IMDB -- same with Balon and Yara appearing in the finale. So that's suspect. Unless it stays up there for a while. They were pretty quick about correcting the Lady Stoneheart prank.

 

I figured they were saving the Greyjoy stuff for Season 6. Means the show writers don't have to come up with as much original stuff. The Second Siege of Meereen will probably be a focal point of S6, too. The rest of the season will be padded out with original content and whatever bits of information they got from Martin about Winds of Winter.

 

I heard rumors they were going to extend the show to ten seasons, but I really don't see them doing more than seven. S6 focusing on Winds of Winter, and then S7 being the endgame.

[Twinrova]

Spoiler

GRRM *wants* them to do more than seven seasons, but from what I've seen the show writers seem pretty adamant about there being seven seasons. I can maybe see them doing a few extra episodes for S7 but that's it. All the people saying they might do more than that are delusional, including GRRM. xP

 

I suppose saving the Dickhead Islands for S6 makes sense, I just would've expected them to announce that somehow? There's currently nothing going on so they could have safely included them with Bran in the "not doing this shit til next year" announcement without spoiling anything. I dunno.

 

I think it's probably likely they'll just merge Septon Meribald and the Elder Brother, since they seem to be all about streamlining the show. Although I've seen people saying that description could fit Damphair. I think it's far more likely to be the the other two but who knows.

So if it is indeed Meribald/EB, are they going to have Brienne be the one to run into them? She's gonna recognize Sandor if so. And I don't really see a need for her to even be there anymore, since she's run into both Sansa and Arya already. She also might need to borrow Littlefinger's jetpack to travel so much. I wonder who they'll have replace her.

 

I'm betting the Benjen thing is just a joke. There were people saying it might be Coldhands but I highly doubt it, there's no point to having him show up now that Bran & co are already at the cave. God I hope they fix Bloodraven next season.

[Selena]

YET MORE BOOK SPOILERS, I'M SORRY EVERYONE ELSE.

 

Spoiler

It could fit Damphair -- and I definitely thought he was an option while reading it -- but I'm pretty sure it's EB/Meribald. Damphair's POV chapters aren't really about him, and instead he's more or less a neutral observer of what everyone else is doing. He's fairly irrelevant on his own. I know you hate the theory, but Cleganebowl seems likely! I can't think of any other reason why they'd bring in Meribald's storyline this late in the game.

 

If the Greyjoys do show up in the finale, then that may explain why they didn't announce "you won't see them until S6."

 

The IMDB stuff may definitely be bullshit. It's also listing that the Night's King will appear. That seems highly unlikely, since HBO was quick to dismiss the claim that the one White Walker from last season was the Night's King. It's also listing the season finale title as "Winter."

 

Based on episode descriptions, it sounds like Episode 9 will involve:

 

* Arya killing Meryn Trant

* Stannis deciding whether or not to kill Shireen (*nervous sweating*)

* Jon comes back from Hardhome and possibly gets shanked... though I'd expect to see that in the actual finale

* Drogon party crashing the fighting pits.

 

[JRPomazon]

I read some of the spoilers. I'm happy but also a little sad now, though I think I'll just be enraged for what the Season Finale might be.

[Twinrova]

Spoiler

I refuse to give any kind of support to Cleganebowl. If it comes on screen I will throw my hardcover copy of ADWD at it. I had a thought though, if they're not gonna have Brienne run into him, maybe Jaime after he gets fed up with Cersei and goes looking for his one true love Brienne?

 

I dunno that I see them bringing the Greyjoys back for one episode. It would feel a little abrupt to be like "oh yeah this guy still exists, remember him? no? right we've totally ignored him for forever but OH WAIT HE'S DEAD J/K BYE" I feel like it needs a little build up.

 

I can see Arya killing Meryn fucking Trant. She'll probably kill him and then they'll use that as the catalyst for her going blind and maybe that'll be her finale. I hope they include her skinchanging into the cat. I really really wanna see her warging into Nymeria and then guiding Nymeria and her wolf pack to WinterfELL AND FEAST ON BOLTON FLESH FUCK YEEHAHAHAAHHH*

 

I'm wondering how they'll handle the shanking....I mean they can't keep that quiet if they leave that as the cliffhanger and then have him come back next season. I really and truly doubt he actually dies. So maybe they'll shank him in ep 9 and have him come back in ep 10? I know Hardhome is supposed to be a huge part of ep 9.

 

 

 

*Do you have to be in close proximity to the animal to skinchange/warg (I am so lost on what word to use lmao as far as I can tell it's skinchanging for any kind of animal except when it's for wolves it's *~warging~* idk) into it? Arya has her "wolf dreams" while in Braavos but idk if that counts as actually warging.

[Selena]

IMDB has removed the Greyjoys/Benjen/others from the finale list, so, yep, those were rumors. IMDB really oughta limit who can edit stuff for upcoming shows/movies.

 

Although it sounds like the official finale title is "Mother's Mercy." With the following description: "Stannis marches. Dany is surrounded by strangers. Cersei (Lena Headey) seeks forgiveness. Jon is challenged."

 

 

 

 

http://winteriscomin...opsis-released/

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

Next episode is entitled Hardhome, so I presume the battle takes place there. The episode description for episode 9 is just that he returns to the Wall. Maybe they'll shank him in the last scene of episode 9, and resurrect him in the finale?

 

I don't know how they're going to incorporate Meribald or Cleganebowl, should they go that route. Brienne doesn't seem likely, but it's hard to predict who's going to be where. I have a feeling Sansa and Brienne (and hopefully Podrick too!) will head to the Wall to find Jon -- since his name was tactically dropped. And/or end up in Stannis' company.

 

Jaime.... I'm not sure. Actually, I have no idea what they'll do with Jaime after Dorne. He's supposed to refuse Cersei's request to be her champion, but that's primarily because he's disgusted by her behavior (and bitter about Lancel). In the show, he has no ill will toward her. Maybe they won't have her write the letter in the show, and a more formal request -- listing her crimes -- will be sent by the Faith on her behalf. And he'll get pissed off when he sees that she's slept with Lancel. I really don't know. It would feel odd if he did fight as her champion, but he's really got no cause to refuse her right now. Apart from "hey my hand is gone."

 

I really hope they have Arya skinchange the cat. It would be a big surprise for non-book readers, and it's such a cool part of her character.

 

I don't know what the "range" is for warging. I don't know if she's actively in control of Nymeria in those dreams, or if she's just passively watching through Nymeria's senses. It's been a while since I read it. You might be able to warg over great distances with an animal you're closely bonded with. Like those theories that Bloodraven has been warging Jeor's raven this whole time. And Jon can warg Ghost over a fair distance, too.

 

So, the distance probably isn't a problem if you're bonded with an animal already. But if it's a new animal or a person (in Bran's case), then you have to be fairly close.

[Twinrova]

So the title for episode 10 was confirmed.

 

Book stuff:

Spoiler

It's 'Mother's Mercy'.

 

From AFFC's appendix:

LADY STONEHEART, a hooded woman, sometimes called MOTHER MERCY, THE SILENT SISTER, and THE HANGWOMAN,

 

I am FUCKING HYPE.

Edited by Twinrova, 30 May 2015 - 02:08 PM.

[Selena]

Spoiler

I WANT TO BELIEVE.

 

I will be very surprised if they introduce her, and I'm trying not to get my hopes up, but that's definitely what I thought of when I saw the episode title. Brienne and company flee the Boltons, then they find....

 

NO, NOT GONNA DO THIS AGAIN. IT'S TOO MUCH TO HOPE FOR.