185 replies to this topic

[Delphi]

I'm with Masa on this. I want to go play Yakey Sax over that scene it was so wtf. Can we just have Sansa stab Ramsey already to get the character development pay off that is supposedly coming as a result of her being raped?

And I agree, Rova. If Stannis is the one to burn Shireen it'll be under different circumstances or given by a POV character that has better insight into what's going on.

...on the other hand, after seeing what leeches full of blood can do, why doesn't Stannis just keep a pack of leeches around?

[Veteran]

All because the Boltons are an unstoppable family of evil geniuses. I mean, are we really expected to believe that Ramsay and twenty guys managed to completely sabotage the greatest military commander in Westeros to the point he had no choice but to burn his own daughter? Please. They've turned a one note character from the books into this show's version of the Joker.
 
I mean, heaven forbid the guy attack with his shirt off and take A WHOLE MINUTE to unleash the dogs. Then nobody would stand a chance. Certainly not the Ironborn.

This is the Ramsay ship. Get on board. I was disappointed to not see his Splinter Cell stealth mission.

[Masamune]

The leeches full of blood still haven't managed to kill Balon Greyjoy off yet. Oops.

[Delphi]

And pulling that sword out of a corpse still hasn't made Stannis Azor Ahai or whatever his name is.

Maybe Stannis should reanalyze his partnership with the crazy fire lady.

[DarkJuno]

As someone who might as well not have read some of the books, it felt like the whole season leading to this point was where Melissandre telling Stannis to burn Shireen would be the final point where he quits listening to crazy zealot red woman since his relationship with his daughter was the one thing that showed he wasn't that bad of a guy in the end. Early on when he loses all those supplies and horses it came across as such a contrived and obvious plot point to be where he'd have to make a terrible decision that I was sure they'd do the swerve where he finally told her off. So yeah, I was surprised and honestly dumbfounded when it happened, so much so that it took till the next day, while being sick in bed that I went "You know, it was kinda eff'd up how that was a little girl screaming as she burned to death."

Honestly, when the plot twists and swerves in the storyline start to remind me of friggin' pro wrestling I get a little concerned.

[JRPomazon]

It would have been better if Stannis' group was desperate for longer. Showed more of the Mannis getting beaten down by the winter, by the Boltons, etc. Make it seem more dire for him and his group all the while taunting us with the idea that Shireen might be the next sacrifice to the Lord of Light. I do agree that the way they did do things seems kinda rushed. I see what they wanted to do but they pulled a Steven Moffat and crammed it all in without enough time to let it simmer and set.

[Jasi]

Yeah that's what I think too JRP. The motives are believable but it was super rushed.

[Selena]

Honestly, when the plot twists and swerves in the storyline start to remind me of friggin' pro wrestling I get a little concerned. 

 

 

 

My god what happens in pro wrestling nowadays

[Jasi]

Whoa good point. There are pro wrestling plotlines?? /shudder

[Veteran]

He might be thinking of the Inferno match around... holy crap, 17 years ago! One dude won by setting the other dude on fire.

Good times.




There was probably also a ring entrance of flying a dragon, necrophilia and a midget. Fun fact, only one of the previous three statements is untrue!

[DarkJuno]

I didn't mean the story lines were exactly the same, I more meant that stuff happens to shock the audience despite the fact that it either comes out of nowhere, or worse, completely contradicts what was set up before it. It's not exclusively a pro wrestling thing, but given the nature of the product being live weekly, they can react to good and bad things quickly.....sometimes to its own detriment.

Though I'm sure if you sit down and try to chart the path of a character like The Undertaker you'd get an.......interesting story, no, I don't mean there's someone in the WWE trying to be king of everyone and deviously crushing everyone around him to be the bes - oh.

[Twinrova]

So... the "previously on" for ep 10 was leaked and OH MY GOD

 

 

Spoiler

THEY SHOWED BENJEN

 

 

[Masamune]

My tinfoil armor is ready.

[Twinrova]

Spoiler

I read a theory that they're going to merge Coldhands and Benjen. I can definitely see this happening, especially if Jon ends up surviving via warging. He could warg into Ghost and then back into his wight-body.

 

 

ALSO they showed Sansa picking up the corkscrew or w/e it was!!! GET FUCKING HYPE PLEASE STAB RAMSAY A LOT

 

 

 

 

...but who I am kidding, we'll probably just get a scene of her trying to stab him without his shirt on and his Shock Value Armor will protect him

[Selena]

Spoiler

I don't know. Maybe. This is definitely getting into future-book territory, since Coldhands' know plot points have already been bypassed. Confirmation that Benjen appears in Winds of Winter? I think so!

 

I wouldn't be too surprised if Ramsay dies. I don't expect he'll live too much longer in the books. He's sadistic, but not all that clever. I'm fully expecting one Bolton to die at the Battle of Winterfell (in the books). It'll probably be Roose. Which will leave an inept Ramsay in charge. At which point, all the northern lords will rally against him. Or they could both die. But that's too hopeful. Either way, I don't see Ramsay surviving the next book. So if the show is definitely fast-tracking things, they might just kill him here.

 

 

Still holding out for Stoneheart, Rova?

[Twinrova]

Spoiler

Not really :/ I would have expected some kind of build-up but we got nothin'. I mean, I guess there's still some sliver of a chance she'll show up, but since there's been literally no mention of her or the BWB or Beric or anything I doubt it.

[Selena]

The good bits of the finale:

 

Cersei's walk of shame was pretty well executed, and I'm definitely glad they didn't make her break down and cry -- her refusing to shed tears was a big thing in her last chapter. She teared up, so I was worried, but it passed. Shame they didn't find a way to include some of the great lines from her internal monologue in that sequence. I guess that would've been awkward.

 

Brienne doing her duty. I was sad there wasn't much Bri this season, but I guess that's because Gwen was off filming Hunger Games and Star Wars. And Podrick lived! Hurray! No spearwife death for Pod.

 

ARRRYAAAA fuck yeah. Although the last part was a bit sketchy on logic and details. The original version made way more sense. I'm not sure why they changed it.

 

The Benjen fakeout. I just give the writers credits for knowing how to tease their audience. Jon's subsequent shaking was done well -- I liked the cinematography there at the end, with the blood.

 

Dany's bit was really short, but it was okay. The scene looked impressive. I understand why they cut "camping with Drogon" down to a short sequence. They didn't add the blood thing, though. Maybe they'll do it next season.

 

 

The ??????? of the finale:

 

Curious change with Sam. In the book, Jon forces Sam to go to Oldtown. Sam reacted to the order like a cat being thrown in a tub of water. Not because he doesn't love learning, but because he once suggested becoming a maester to his warlike father.... and his father reacted by abusing him, because he didn't want his heir to become a cowardly maester. He wanted a warrior son. With Randyll Tarly supposedly showing up next season, I'm surprised they changed this part of Sam's character. He didn't want to go to Oldtown because it meant being in close proximity to the man who abused him and tormented him.

 

They didn't do ADWD's epilogue. I won't spoil it for non-readers. But I'm surprised by the change. Maybe they wanted more Tyrion/Varys bonding time.

 

 

The questionable disappointed parts of the finale:

 

In the books, Shireen, Mel, and Selyse all remained at the Wall when Stannis marched for Winterfell. Readers have long assumed that Mel will sacrifice Shireen to resurrect Jon. Given Stannis' swift defeat on the show, and given that Melisandre ends up back at the Wall anyway, this means that Stannis sacrificing Shireen was completely and utterly pointless. So not only did we get to watch a kid be murdered by her own parents for no reason, it also assassinated Stannis' character. There was really no reason to structure his story that way, other than for gross melodrama.

 

As anticipated, Sansa's rape was just a thing that happened. It had minimal impact on the plot or her development -- she was already a victim-who-is-secretly-badass. They could have structured her story in so many different ways. But hey, a rape gets people talking. Now that season is over, I can render judgment. And that judgment is: this whole decision was disgusting and awful.

 

Dorne. Just. All of it. I could write an essay, and this post is already too long. But what a trainwreck.

 

 

 

It feels like they were trying way too hard to incorporate creepy disturbing abuse/murder for shock value. All throughout the season.

[JRPomazon]

Welp, here's hoping season 6 learns from the mistakes of season 5 I suppose. Miserable cliffhanger will more or lest last for a bit but it'll make the return all the better.

[Twinrova]

Someone on /r/asoiaf pointed out that if Stannis is actually dead, then Balon has technically won the War of the Five Kings. I'm in stitches omg lol.

[Jasi]

In the books, Shireen, Mel, and Selyse all remained at the Wall when Stannis marched for Winterfell. Readers have long assumed that Mel will sacrifice Shireen to resurrect Jon. Given Stannis' swift defeat on the show, and given that Melisandre ends up back at the Wall anyway, this means that Stannis sacrificing Shireen was completely and utterly pointless. So not only did we get to watch a kid be murdered by her own parents for no reason, it also assassinated Stannis' character. There was really no reason to structure his story that way, other than for gross melodrama.

 

 

I don't really agree that it was pointless storywise. Melisandre is completely embarrassed—for the first time in the show (I think?), her plans did NOT work out, which changes our perception of her quite a bit. We've never seen her enter a scene with her tail between her legs like she did at the Wall. And then Stannis being undone in this way is distinctly different from nobly dying in battle or any other way of him being eliminated. What I don't like is the pacing of everything—Stannis's story progressed at breakneck pace and the viewer has to fill in a lot of the subtext themselves—but I guess that's a consequence of how many storylines there are to juggle at this point. Meh. Just offering my take.

 

Back to fun tinfoil-y speculation things—is it possible that Mel almost tricked Stannis by getting him to sacrifice Shireen by saying it was for his army, when it was really for Jon's resurrection all along? People that I watch with also immediately went to "Melisandre is gonna resurrect Jon", maybe because we're in denial, but it does seem to set things up that way. And yeah the payoff for sacrificing Shireen was pretty lame, so maybe there's some leftover juju to work with.

[Twinrova]

Have you guys read this?

http://www.ew.com/ar...-dies-interview

At first glance I was like, fuck, he's really dead, fuckfuckfuck. But the more I read it the more it seems like he's just trying to cover his ass? Maybe? I mean he didn't really commit to any post GoT plans and it's still hard for me to believe he doesn't have more to do story wise.

ALTHOUGH he supposedly cut his hair and his contract says he can't do that... Hmm...

[Jasi]

I'm sure they're not allowed to give away spoilers in interviews, hahaha. I'm holding out hope.

[Twinrova]

Right, and I honestly haven't read interviews from anyone else who's died, so I don't know if they're all like "oh he's definitely dead and not coming back".

'Course now that I think about it, of course Jon is dead, otherwise it wouldn't be a resurrection.

[Jasi]

Exactly, that's the spirit!

[Selena]

On the one hand, everyone thought that D&D were lying when they said "Lady Stoneheart is not going to appear," for the sake of covering their ass. But it turns out they really did cut her. It would be a huge shock if they didn't bring Jon back, given how everyone's assumed that he'll be resurrected for so long.

 

 

Of course, Jon is absolutely dead. Some of the book people desperately assumed that he somehow survived being Caesar'd, so this confirms that, yup -- he dead. So they can all safely say that. Unless they announce that he's been released from his contract, then he's still likely to be a regular in S6. And even then, they could probably just cancel his S1-S5 contract for the sake of public shock, and then draw up another one at the last minute for S6+. 

 

His hair might not be an issue -- there are always curly pouty-boy wigs for him to wear. Or maybe Jon's lovely locks die too. 

 

 

 

The return of Melisandre to the Wall indicates that resurrection is happening. She saw the vision of the Boltons losing Winterfell. Her prophecies usually aren't wrong. The vision comes to pass. It just doesn't always happen like she thinks it will. She's been operating under the assumption that Stannis was Azor Ahai reborn. So she assumed that Stannis would be the one to take Winterfell. Enter the book line:

 

"I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only snow."

 

So she's going to realize that the messiah was Jon the whole time -- and she'll desperately resurrect him. In theory. Although that presents an interesting possibility of Jon being the one to seize back Winterfell. Meaning he'll abandon the Watch after he's resurrected. ...Which I guess makes sense, since he was made to feel wholly unwelcome.

 

I would be completely and utterly shocked if he stays dead.

 

 

 

 

 

(I personally think that Dany is Azor Ahai, and that Jon's a different figure, but that's just me)

[Twinrova]

I was kinda rooting for a survival-by-warging personally. I just figured that that would be why GRRM had that prologue with Varamyr Sixskins and why his last word was "Ghost". Maybe it is that way in the books but D&D wanted to give Mel something different to do, idk, lol.

I honestly don't have any theories on AA or TPTWP or any of that stuff. Prophecy stuff bores me to tears. Although I do still love the idea of- shit is this a spoiler? I'll tag it just in case.

Spoiler

I do still love the idea of Jaime being the valonqar. I'm pretty sure they didn't include that line though so I'm not hopeful I'll get to see it.

So... Other than the Greyjoy stuff and Oldtown, show watchers and book readers are pretty much on the same page now, right? I'm still loling at Balon being the last King standing purely because they seemingly forgot about him, lmao. An apt summary of this season, in picture form:

 

Edited by Twinrova, 15 June 2015 - 12:12 PM.

[Veteran]

Urgh.

The show's now in LOST territory of bad. What a terrible season.

[Twinrova]

Ok so I finally actually watched it. Are D&D just... trying to troll the book readers? Name-dropping Benjen was not worth putting him in the "previously on", you ass dicks. e_e

[Selena]

BUT YOU FELL FOR IT!

 

 

 

 

I think Season 5 suffered from "Storm of Swords syndrome." A Storm of Swords -- being S3 and S4 for you TV-only folks -- was really action-packed and full of shocking twists. The Red Wedding generated a ton of critical and fan acclaim, as did the various twists in Season 4. The twists are both shocking and somewhat tragic. I think the showrunners perhaps misunderstood the reactions, and equated tragedy with critical acclaim. It was the tragedy of Robb's death that got people buzzing. It was the surprise. Not people anticipated the Red Wedding or its scale. It's not the death aspect that provides such amazing drama. It's the surprise.

 

Is S5, we had a lot of death and tragedy.

 

But it didn't come as a surprise. In most cases, people saw what was coming a mile away. The show kind of lingered on the darker aspects -- like a camera zooming in on a bus that's already about to crash. Even Jon's death was foreshadowed quite a bit. And so much, in such quick succession. 

 

The books S5 was based on are fairly slow compared with Storm of Swords. They're paced more like A Clash of Kings (S2). They're all relatively sparse on surprise twists, barring one or two big events. But they're pretty well paced. Storm of Swords was just cranked up to 11. And you don't typically stay cranked up that high. You slow back down after a while, thus giving fans time to recover and take a deep breath.

 

But the show didn't scale back down to S2's pacing. It tried to stay just as intense, seeking just as many "WOW" moments, but the material couldn't support the intended tone. Especially at the lightning speed they were trying to move at. They bounced from one sick plot point to another, but without the big surprises, and without the proper pacing or nuanced plot structuring. 

[Masamune]

A Reddit threads nails the problem down. "The reason bad things happen on GoT has changed. GoT has gone from being a show that wouldn't cheat to help the good guys to a show that will cheat to help the bad guys." Before you could see the clear choices the characters made that led them to their doom. You could see Ned's failures laid out before you and the same with Robb.

But in this season, things just happened for the heck of it. Ramsay was given plot armor so that despite Stannis being a very intelligent military commander, was being constantly humiliated by this uneducated bastard. Barristan the Bold was killed by a random thug, despite being the greatest knight of their age. The Unsullied are just basically useless despite having been trained from birth to be the ultimate fighters. And then you have the Boltons, who everyone in the North absolutely despises in the books, managing to easily summon an army to crush Stannis without any difficulty whatsoever. In the books, the North despises the Bolton-Frey alliance and they're barely maintaining being on top. We get some really stirring moments where through Davos and Theon we get to see how The North Remembers and how despite all of Ned and Robb's failures, their vassals are still fiercely loyal and want to fight for them even in death. The Winterfell that Stannis is marching to is a kettle about to boil over from the tensions inside, especially with Freys being murdered thanks to a certain mischief caused by a character that isn't quite as dead as he is in the show. 

 

Then you have the Jon storyline, with the "For The Watch" storyline. In the book, Jon forsakes his vows and goes to stir the wildlings to go march on the wildlings to go save Arya. Just as he's gathering to march away, Bowen Marsh with tears in his eyes stabs Jon Snow because he legitimately believes that Jon Snow is endangering them all by letting a wildling army run loose in the realm. In the show, this is boiled down to Alliser Thorne being kind of an asshole and decided to murder Jon with a gang of bullies that don't like him very much, despite Jon doing none of the questionable decisions as a leader that otherwise led him to this path. Instead of it being "For The Watch", it's "For Me And My Buddies Because Fuck You". 

 

What the show has done is go rushing into any semblance of tragedy and leaped on it for the sake of shock value without actually building up to it. Which is unfortunate because they didn't have to. They made cuts, but they didn't make the right cuts. The storylines could have led up to these consequences in a way that we would believe, but instead they happen because they need to break the internet. It's a ride of cheap thrills and they've forgotten that what got people really watching the show was for complex characters having to deal with real consequences to their actions and never getting that one in a hundred lucky break that dominates other fiction. Instead we get characters that are as complex as the Looney Tunes, but not nearly as amusing.