185 replies to this topic

[Twinrova]

Right? I keep trying to tell myself, no, it won't happen, don't get your hopes up, you're just gonna be disappointed.

But I can't help it. My hype train has left the station and is off the fucking tracks. The actor that plays Pod was quoted saying episode 10 will "break the internet" and the show writers said the very last scene is a book scene.

[Selena]

hoLY CRAP.

 

First half: Most characters are just in a holding pattern for now, though it was really nice to see Dany and Tyrion interact. Sophie Turner is doing a really good job with Sansa's scenes. She was surprisingly commanding and intimidating during that conversation. At least she knows about her brothers now. That should give her at least a little relief.

 

The rest of the episode? EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

 

This is my favorite episode of the season, all because of that battle. I love it when we get to see White Walkers / the Others, because I JUST WANT TO KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT THEM. Very tense, very well executed fight. Good to see confirmation that Valyrian steel has the same properties as dragonglass. And... and... White Walkers! Fighting! Ice magic! Hordes of undead!

 

EEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

[JRPomazon]

The show has been peppering in more and more of the magical element as its been progressing. It's getting pretty intense.

[DarkJuno]

My sister is starting to watch the show, and it's really impressive how far along the show has come since the first season, visually and directing wise. It started off as the biggest budget HBO show already if I recall correctly, so it's neat seeing them work with it and really honing the style so when they got the obvious bump here, it's even more impressive. From a battle in a walled in area to this, it's pretty cool.

So, I have to ask, is this all going to end with everyone just dying? Given how poorly things go for the "good" people in this series and how everyone will seem to inevitably have to turn their attention to the White Walkers, is this going to turn into I Am Legend?

The book, not movie.

[Twinrova]

GRRM has said the ending he has planned out is "bittersweet", and he's all about trying to break or subvert traditional fantasy tropes. So it won't end up being just Westeros/dragons vs. White Walkers.

[Twinrova]

Welp I finally watched it (Benjamin and I generally don't get a chance to watch the episodes until the following Monday). Nice to finally get confirmation that Valyrian steel does indeed work against Others.

 

The Others are...weirdly human looking. I think HBO got them and the wights backwards. I felt that they could have achieved the wights using human actors with makeup, and used the CGI for the Others. I'm sure there was some used, at least for the eyes, but like.. the Others are supposed to be these otherwordly beings of mist and ice. I have a hard time believing they wear man-made armor and move around like humans do. And the wights are just, lol. They're supposed to be reanimated dead bodies, not Stalfos.

 

And ice spiders! I mean, I obviously don't care for spiders, but! That's what they ride! They even mentioned it!! But no... lets just use skeletal horses.....

 

 

It was a neat battle though. The look on Jon's face when he realized what just happened with his and the Other's sword, lol.

 

Have we had confirmation that that one Darth Maul guy was the Night's King? That's what everyone on Reddit is calling him. I wonder if that's actually who he is or if HBO just appropriated that so the Head Guy could have a cool sounding name.

 

 

Super enjoying Tyrion and Dany together. Could've smacked him when he told her she might just belong in Meereen, though.

 

Spoiler

*sigh* I'm sure their shenanigans are short-lived though, thanks Drogon. u_u

 

 

Waiting to see if Ramsay goes after Stannis with his shirt off.

[Selena]

There were a lot of skeletal wight there, but the majority of them were in at least partial states of fleshiness. Most wights on the show have been of the reanimated corpse variety.

 

As for the Others, erm... maybe we had two very different mental images when we read the books? Because the show's only gotten more accurate in their portrayal, from the image I got. They strongly resemble humans. Just with some otherworldly traits -- like the bluish skin and glowing blue eyes and maybe the ability to shapeshift into mist (it's kinda unclear if they turn into mist, or if the mist just follows them). The show got their armor wrong, but I imagine that it would be hard to do the books' active camouflage stealth ice armor. And they used skeleton horses in the books, too. Nobody's seen the ice spiders in person yet. They're still in the "creepy legend of the Long Night" category.

 

As for Ice Maul, he's officially listed as the "Night King." For some reason, HBO felt the need to drop the apostrophe and s. It's possible that he's not the same guy from the books, since I don't remember him being mentioned on the show.

 

 

Book spoilers for Tyrion:

 

Spoiler

Poor Tyrion.

 

Spends all that time getting to Meereen. Dany flies off on Drogon. The city is immediately stricken with plague. Then it's besieged by a huge unified army. And Barristan isn't even there to help him. Welp.

 

[Twinrova]

I'm not really sure how to describe how I imagined them. I guess I didn't think of them as being 100% tangible? Like obviously they have to have enough of a form to be able to wear anything or hold anything but I guess I just have this weird morph between human, mist, and shadow in my mind. I don't picture them walking with legs, but more floating and amorphous...like mist, lol.

 

Actually you know what- these two images from the wiki are kinda close:

 

 

(the ones in the bg)

 

 

 

 

 

 

But just... yeah, the human armor is just weird. I really would have liked to see an effort to do the ice armor. D: 

[Selena]

Yeah, I very much pictured them as tangible beings. Kind of like advanced versions of ice elemental enemies in video games. With a potential mist-form. Though I kinda pictured the mist as it was on the show. A natural storm that surrounds them at their will. Actions scenes have them walking on top of snow, so they do walk. They just walk like Legolas on top of the snow.

 

And if the Night's King thing was true, and his wife was an Other lady, then she'd have to be physical for them to do the dirty.

 

 

 

 

Oh, and Deej -- I highly doubt this will have a "kill 'em all" ending.

 

Only most will die.

 

Not that it's valid anymore, but Martin's original proposal for the book said that at least some of the "big ones" will make it out alive. And he apparently swore a vow to leave Arya alive, under threats from his wife. I suspect at least a couple POV characters will survive. A lot of people think that Bran might be revealed to be the books' narrator, because of reasons.

[Twinrova]

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the GRRM-promised-his-wife-Arya-wouldn't-die thing was just a joke that people took as gospel.

Anyway, yeah, I've actually just started a re-read, so I'm gonna pay more attention to the descriptions of the Others this time around. I don't doubt anything you've said, I just managed to conjure a different mental image of them despite any evidence to the contrary



Edit: Rova, Queen of the emote

Edited by Twinrova, 01 June 2015 - 09:48 PM.

[Veteran]

Wait... Others?

What's an Other? All I see are White Walkers. Don't tell me there are different breeds because there's already a lot to keep track of!

[Masamune]

In the book, they're simply referred to as the Others. The "White Walkers" is considered a less accurate name for them, sort of like referring to ringwraiths as black riders. Still technically accurate, but not their real name. The show dropped the "Others" because at the time, another show was using that to refer to something (LOST or Walking Dead maybe?) so they opted for avoiding confusion.

[Twinrova]

Rofl my bad, I forgot the show doesn't really use that term. It's hard for me to think of them as White Walkers, just like I can't call Asha "Yara".

 

 

Speaking of, "Lana" of the Canals?! That does not roll off the tongue as easily as Cat! But I guess they wanted to avoid confusion about that too. :<

[Crimson Lego]

[Sir Turtlelot]

FUCK STANNIS

[Selena]

I was really really really hoping that he wouldn't do it. For however "practical" he is, it was way out of character for him to have done that. In an instant, Stannis went from one of the most popular characters to being one of the most hated. It's doubly worse if you're a book reader, since we all know that Stannis gave orders to make Shireen the Queen of Westeros, should he die at Winterfell.

 

And Selyse has a change of heart right at the last minute, after a bunch of episodes insulting Shireen? Whatevs. Everyone's out of character.

 

...He also just unwittingly made Daenerys his sole heir, as they are cousins via his grandma.

 

 

 

 

The rest of the episode was not fury-inducing, but pretty underwhelming. Some of my "meh" feeling admittedly comes from being a pompous book-reader, though plenty of it comes purely from show-canon.

 

Jon's sequence was mostly slow build-up for next week, and apparently he didn't feel the need to mention "HEY GUYS WE WERE JUST ATTACKED BY WHITE WALKERS AND A HUGE ARMY OF THE UNDEAD. Which, y'know, would probably keep the Watch focused on the bigger issues at hand. Rather than allow treasonous feelings to fester.

 

Dorne is still awful and boring. I don't even know what to make of it. 

 

Arya's story took a turn for the creepy, though I actually won't fault this too much. Because it's really just an awkward mashup of her most recent book plot and her Winds of Winter preview chapter. It's guaranteed that she's going to use Meryn Trant's "inclinations" against him, luring him close enough to kill. This should not involve any actual sexual contact. I will only be angry if the show writers insert said unnecessary-contact. A slight pity she didn't complete her actual mission first, though. Her method of assassination in the books was quite clever.

 

Dany's sequence with Drogon was fine, though everything in Meereen leading up to that was questionable. What are the Sons of the Harpy even doing? They're just randomly stabbing people in the crowds. What is that even going to accomplish? The Sons of the Harpy are meant to systematically remove Dany's forces from power, eventually returning the city to native rule. They don't go around causing mass chaos. A very awkward adaptation change, seemingly for the sake of just ramping up the drama (as if "dragon vs. gladiators" was not going to be enough action). And I guess Hizdahr was innocent on the show. A pity.

 

I will give credit to Davos' and Shireen's actors, though. Their scene together was touching. Especially since it's pretty clear that Davos knows what's going to happen. But that's the only kind thing I can say about that storyline.

 

 

 

 

Book implications. Big spoilers:

Spoiler

Guess this lends credit to the theory that Melisandre will sacrifice Shireen to resurrect Jon.

 

It also makes you wonder how Jon will be resurrected on the show, since Mel isn't there. A leading theory is that the Night King will do it. Alternatively, Jon in both universes could just be dead! But that would be massively anticlimactic.

 

[Crimson Lego]

FUCK STANNIS

[JRPomazon]

FUCK STANNIS

[Twinrova]

Except, y'know, Stannis would never have done that and the show writers don't have any idea how to write his character

[Jasi]

Except, y'know, Stannis would never have done that and the show writers don't have any idea how to write his character

 

Has this happened in the books? Like is it known that the show writers even made that call? Or is this just a thing we say now?

[Selena]

Shireen is still alive in the books, and she's even befriended the giant that Jon rescued. She, Selyse, and Melisandre all stayed at the Wall while Stannis marched to Winterfell -- so they and Stannis are separated by hundreds of leagues. People speculate that she'll bite it in the early stages of Winds of Winter, but even then, it's unlikely that Stannis would have a hand in it due to the logistics involved. And because of his characterization.

 

Mel and Selyse, on the other hand, would probably roast smores and drink wine while watching her burn.

 

There's mixed reports about whether this adaptation change was Martin or D&D's idea, though it's unpalatable either way.

[Jasi]

It's funny to blame the show writers when the book hasn't been written yet and may very well do the same exact thing. I'm sort of baffled by how quick people are to trot out the "bad writing" line this season. I'm not sure there's a proper separation of personal taste vs. assessment of quality going on when people are saying that. I was horrified about Shireen and extremely uncomfortable and disturbed. Shireen was awesome and it sucks that she was burned alive, obviously. Yes, it's quite unpalatable. But I disagree about it not being in Stannis's character and I don't really know where this argument comes from, besides the one scene thrown in two episodes ago with "You are my daughter" etc (which I found to be more surprising and out-of-character than this episode's scene).

 

Here's how I see it: Stannis has been a self-serving jerk for the whole ride as far as I'm concerned. Yeah he of course didn't want to sacrifice Shireen, that was made clear, but then his ability to attack Winterfell was threatened and he saw no other way. Stannis is too prideful (and this isn't the first time he's been too prideful); he'd rather make the sacrifice than go back to the Wall. edit: and I'm realizing that this is all in the dialogue between Stannis and Shireen this episode. 

 

With that possible explanation in mind, then at the very least, it's not unambiguously out of character. imo this is in character for show Stannis. If there's further context in the books that makes it seem out of character for book Stannis, it's irrelevant as far as claims about the quality of the show writing are concerned. 

Edited by Jasi, 08 June 2015 - 04:37 PM.

[Selena]

Stannis has been sticking up for Shireen since Team Dragonstone's introduction. There were moments way back in S2 where he told Selyse off for being awful to the kid. Shireen is the only one he's ever really shown affection to, in his own way. So, I'm going to heavily disagree that his bonding scenes with Shireen this seasons were somehow out of character. Or that burning her was somehow in character. Even when just going off the show.

 
 
big segment edited out:

 

Nevermind, I'm tired of having this debate -- or seeing the show vs. book debate play out on social media after every big episode. It's draining. I'll leave it at this: There are some adaptation changes I love. I think they not only support the story, but are also examples of great writing. There are some changes I hate. There are some changes that I think feel very forced, and undermine some important story themes / characterizations. Overall, the writing this season feels subpar to me. Though there are some strong points dashed in here and there. It's not just book-readers who criticize this season.

 

If you like it, great. Rock on.

[Jasi]

I'm not really doing a "show vs. book" debate. I don't really care either and that's not my point. It's obviously fine to disagree and I don't expect to change anyone's mind about the writing choices with what I wrote.

But I'm taking particular issue with calling it bad writing specifically. That's maybe a pedantic issue in some people's eyes and it's probably a symptom of liberal arts academia junk that I don't like it. Saying you dislike the turn in the character, that you would have written it differently, etc. is different than saying it's bad writing to have his character go there. I'm trying to say that it's not really bad writing or out of character because one can easily come up with possible mindsets for Stannis that got him to that point.

AND it's super silly to put this entirely on the show writers when we don't know yet what GRRM does with this death.

Edited by Jasi, 08 June 2015 - 08:15 PM.

[Twinrova]

I'm not mad about Shireen being burned - in fact, I expected her to be. But it seems totally out of line to have Stannis be the one to do it. The guy who actually HAS shown he cares about her, had a meaningful conversation with her about it, who went to the ends of the Earth to save her from greyscale. The guy who burned his wife's uncle for treason for just suggesting that Shireen be married off to Tommen.

 

I expected Mel and Selyse to see how much trouble Stannis was having and go behind his back and have her burned, and have him find out about it too late. Selyse is the one who has done nothing but ride the R'hllor crazy train, and follows everything Mel says with total devotion. I expected her to stand there and happily watch. Remember that scene before they left Dragonstone between her and Mel that heavily implied Selyse might make the decision to burn Shireen, and that's why she even came along in the first place? But no... Selyse was the one who suddenly cared about her daughter, even though she's never shown her any affection at all. Right.

 

 

How about the scene from last episode where Mel tells Stannis to do exactly what he did and he shoots her down? How did Stannis "breaks before he bends" Baratheon change his mind so easily between two fucking episodes?

 

 

Also there's the fact that NOW HE HAS NO HEIR. And is Westeros going to want to support a king who murdered his own daughter? Are his TROOPS going to want to support him? Davis is going to go fucking ballistic on him. Though I suppose this could launch him into his TWOW storyline.

 

 

 

How about some quotes from book Stannis, the guy they're supposedly basing show Stannis off of:

 

 

“A sacrifice will prove our faith still burns true, Sire,” Clayton Suggs had told the king. And Godry the Giantslayer said, “The old gods of the north have sent this storm upon us. Only R’hllor can end it. We must give him an unbeliever.”

 

"Half my army is made up of unbelievers. I will have no burnings. Pray harder."

 

“It is not a question of wanting. The throne is mine, as Robert’s heir. That is law. After me, it must pass to my daughter, unless Selyse should finally give me a son. … I am king. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my daughter. To the realm. Even to Robert.”

 

 

“It may be that we shall lose this battle,” the king said grimly. “In Braavos you may hear that I am dead. It may even be true. You shall find my sellswords nonetheless.”

 

The knight hesitated. “Your Grace, if you are dead —”

 

“— you will avenge my death, and seat my daughter on the Iron Throne. Or die in the attempt.”

 

 

 

I dunno. Maybe since I have read the books it's hard for me to separate show Stannis and book Stannis. But Ben isn't a book reader and he doesn't understand it either. Having him make this decision just felt like the show writers weren't even trying to stick to his character.

 

I just... ugh. It's fucking sloppy writing and I could dismiss it if it were one of few instances of sloppy writing but this season has been full of them.

 

 

 

God, even Drogon knows you don't burn your family. e_e

 

 

 

Anyway...

 

So what was the point of Dorne at all, again? They brought Jaime and Bronn down just........so Myrcella and Trystane could go back to King's Landing? What?? Where was Doran's speech? Shouldn't he be including Ellaria and the Sand Snakes in his ideas so they'll stop messing with his shit? Because to them right now it looks like Doran doesn't give a shit about what happened.

 

 

I was a little underwhelmed by Drogon. I was expecting him to be bigger. o.o Also Dany riding him looked oddly reminiscent of Harry Potter riding a broomstick, lol. And does Dany have greyscale now?? Jorah for sure touched her bare skin.

Edited by Twinrova, 08 June 2015 - 08:35 PM.

[Selena]

But I'm taking particular issue with calling it bad writing specifically. That's maybe a pedantic issue in some people's eyes and it's probably a symptom of liberal arts academia junk that I don't like it. Saying you dislike the turn in the character, that you would have written it differently, etc. is different than saying it's bad writing to have his character go there. I'm trying to say that it's not really bad writing or out of character because one can easily come up with possible mindsets for Stannis that got him to that point.

 

Do you guys not tell people "that was awful" on the musical side of liberal arts? Man, writers will brutally lay into each other and go straight for the jugular. "This is bad" would be considered a mercy at most of the workshops I've seen.

 

 

The show is using contrived ultimatums to fabricate a heightened sense of drama. The writers structure the story in a way that funnels the characters into seemingly hopeless situations, forcing them to pick between two awful options that the writers laid out beforehand. Basically, writers wrote the climax before the rising action. As a result, all the rising action feels clunky and ill-balanced. It's writing your way to a predetermined destination, rather than giving the characters room to breathe and function on their own terms. It creates the illusion of "no choice." And characters will, as they did this season, effectively roll over and allow these things to happen in order to facilitate reaching the climax. Characters lose agency for the sake of the plot. It's writing on rails.

 

Stannis' contrived ultimatum was the snowstorm. On the show, he had the options to burn Shireen or slowly die. But in the books, true to his character, he refused to sacrifice anyone and he force-marched his troops to Winterfell in the storm, surviving on pure stubbornness and pride. Option C. The tension in show!Stannis' contrived ultimatum already feels forced. It loses almost all weight when you know that Stannis forged his own path in the source material.

 

Seasons 1-4, in comparison, frequently had characters (who aren't Sansa) weaseling their way out of situations by choosing third options or breaking through an ultimatum. So, I don't criticize the writing because bad things are happening to good characters. I criticize it because it all feels forced and off-balanced.

 

 

 

For storylines with positive changes, I hold up Tyrion as an example. His storyline in ADWD was really slow, and the show mercifully fast-tracked him without compromising themes or characterization. Same with Jorah. I also nominate Jon, because his storyline was also quite boring in the books -- and all the changes on the show both added to his character and the world itself. While also managing to remind viewers of the real threat. White Walkers are sorely lacking in the books.

 

Preserving characterizations and storyline themes are two primary goals of doing an adaptation. You can make a ton of changes to the plot so long as those two things are being translated properly. Good adaptation changes will not only hold true to those two goals, but also support the source material. For example, the dialogue between Robert and Cersei. They don't break character because they still hate each other, and it also supported the overall story. Or the scenes with Arya and Tywin.

[Delphi]

Yeah I'm feeling that the writers are going for shock value with Sansa's rape scene and Stannis burning Shireen. Writing for shock value trying to one up the last shock is just not a good strategy long term in writing. At least in my opinion.

There have been a lot of good scenes that deviate from the book like the mentioned fast tracking of Tyrion's plot and the expansion of Jorah's role.

However the issue I see if that after running out of book material the creators kind of went "Fuck yeah! Let's be edgier than GRRM and kill characters left and right for no bloody good reason!" At least that's how it's come off to me.

Which leads to Selena's point of writers being somewhat malicious to each other and not being afraid to call each other on the carpet for stupid plots or poorly executed characterization. Hell, my husband and I do it to each other all the time when we're writing. The phrase, "No, that's stupid and here's why," is not uncommon in our writing discussions. My sister is outright brutal when I ask her to go over ideas with me, even if it's just silly fanfiction.

It feels like, to use TVTropes terminology, that everyone's been passing around the Idiot Ball this season. Stannis is just our latest juggler.

From a writing point of view, having Stannis be the one to order Shireen's burning is just a head scratcher. Her mother has already established as resenting her own daughter and riding the Rhallor crazy train at full speed. Now at the very last minute I can see her recanting some of this but watching Selyse in that scene was like watching a completely different character. It's jarring and felt and looked like the scene was only there to manipulate my emotions into what the writers wanted. Your attempts as a writer to elicit a certain response from an audience shouldn't be so transparent that they actually think "Wow, I'm being manipulated right now."

It's just... A lot of novice writer pitfalls with cheap shocks for shock's sake. Maybe Shireen has a similar fate in the books. Most likely she will. But I'd put good money on the scene going quite different.

Dorne also feels like the Namek saga of GoT. "Are we still in Dorne?!"

[JRPomazon]

I'm beginning to think that GRRM might be using the show to pitch ideas and to see how well they work.

[Twinrova]

I wouldn't even necessarily be against Stannis burning Shireen in the books, however unlikely I think it is. I'd trust GRRM to set it up correctly so it makes sense for his character.

Like, the only reason Stannis even *had* to make that "hard decision" was because they still can't get off the "guys isn't Ramsay awful, look how awful he is" ride, WHICH THEY CREATED. Ughghuhghgh.

[Masamune]

All because the Boltons are an unstoppable family of evil geniuses. I mean, are we really expected to believe that Ramsay and twenty guys managed to completely sabotage the greatest military commander in Westeros to the point he had no choice but to burn his own daughter? Please. They've turned a one note character from the books into this show's version of the Joker.

 

I mean, heaven forbid the guy attack with his shirt off and take A WHOLE MINUTE to unleash the dogs. Then nobody would stand a chance. Certainly not the Ironborn.