186 replies to this topic

[arunma]

Tell you what arunma. Go to every public school within your city (or if you live in a small city, widen your range). As the staff if you can conduct a quick poll with their students, in the interest of science. Ask the kids if they want a chocolate bar. Open your backpack in dismay and say "Aw crap. Looks like I only have three left. Who wants it?"

The kids will all want the chocolate bar. They wont selflessly give it up to another member of their class. In fact, I'm willing to bet that in most cases, the teacher will suggest sharing before a student does (you will have the occasional student who suggest sharing simply because they realise it is the best way to get at least part of the chocolate bar).

Try it. See how selfless children are.

Granite, you know quite well that this is not a valid argument.

Let me try to grasp this.

Saying that you are high on your relationship with God is an insult, but you saying that if "you've taught you children to expect Christmas gifts then you are shallow" doesn't qualify as an insult.

No, it's an insult because it was directed specifically at another member (in this case, me). That sets a very bad precedent when done by a mod.

Why would a child worship Jesus more than Santa, in their eyes at that time Jesus hasn't done anything for them but Santa gives them gifts as they learn about Jesus's birth.

Well, apparently you see the problem with Santa too.

[Serra]

There is no problem with Santa, the only problem is Christians who get all bent out of shape over something good like Santa Claus who gives things to kids. You are forcing them to love Jesus and say that he is the only true one in their life before they have a chance to discover it on their own. They are never going to truly realize anything like that, so give them their joy and happiness in knowing a jolly guy in a red suit is bringing them great gifts. They will be happy on Christmas and that is what the holiday is truly about.

[arunma]

They will be happy on Christmas and that is what the holiday is truly about.

No, that is not what the holiday is about. Christians are supposed to be happy every day, by rejoicing in the Lord. Christmas is about the first advent of Jesus Christ. Even the creators of Charlie Brown got that right. By saying that kids need Santa as a "stepping stone" to God, you're only talking down to kids. Kids aren't that stupid.

[GraniteJJ]

Yeah, kids suck.

I never said kids suck. I said kids aren't selfless. Adults aren't selfless either. Arunma, if the end of days arrived and you and I met in person (our out of person, I suppose) for the first time at the Gates of Heaven and St. Peter strolled up and said he could only squeeze one of us in, would you sacrifice your place to let me (an athiest) go in? Now, when answering this question, keep in mind that:

1. For whatever reason, God has deemed my life to be worthy of praise. And, he has granted me admittance to heaven.

2. If you answer with a lie to prove your point, rather than being truthful, God will know. And, when the time comes, he may hold you to your word, even if it was false.

Granite, you know quite well that this is not a valid argument.

You mean testing to see if kids are selfless isn't valid to the question of whether kids are selfless or not. Interesting... <_<

By saying that kids need Santa as a "stepping stone" to God, you're only talking down to kids.  Kids aren't that stupid.

You learn to crawl before you learn to walk. A stepping stone doesn't imply stupidity, it is the best way to learn things. You don't jump into physics by learning quantum mechanics...unless you are Isaac Newton reincarnate.

No, it's an insult because it was directed specifically at another member (in this case, me). That sets a very bad precedent when done by a mod.

Arunma, you called my family shallow. You called the families of others on this forum shallow. If you feel insulted, I feel no pity for you, since you insulted any family that celebrates Christmas through the exchange of gifts. There are a lot of people here who do that. It is not becoming for a mod to insult groups of people, to paint everyone with the same brush. Who are you arunma? The pot or the kettle?

[arunma]

I never said kids suck. I said kids aren't selfless. Adults aren't selfless either. Arunma, if the end of days arrived and you and I met in person (our out of person, I suppose) for the first time at the Gates of Heaven and St. Peter strolled up and said he could only squeeze one of us in, would you sacrifice your place to let me (an athiest) go in? Now, when answering this question, keep in mind that:

1. For whatever reason, God has deemed my life to be worthy of praise. And, he has granted me admittance to heaven.

2. If you answer with a lie to prove your point, rather than being truthful, God will know. And, when the time comes, he may hold you to your word, even if it was false.

OK, the problem with that hypothetical is that you are fallaciously assuming that salvation is transferrable. Jesus used the Parable of the Ten Virgins to explain this point. In fact, read Matthew 25:8-9, which says "The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’ “ ‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’"

The point is, you're not allowed to ask that question anymore than you're allowed to ask about spherical triangles.

You learn to crawl before you learn to walk. A stepping stone doesn't imply stupidity, it is the best way to learn things. You don't jump into physics by learning quantum mechanics...unless you are Isaac Newton reincarnate.

Yeah, but you don't learn physics by first learning that the earth is flat. Santa Claus is equally false.

Arunma, you called my family shallow. You called the families of others on this forum shallow. If you feel insulted, I feel no pity for you, since you insulted any family that celebrates Christmas through the exchange of gifts. There are a lot of people here who do that. It is not becoming for a mod to insult groups of people, to paint everyone with the same brush. Who are you arunma? The pot or the kettle?

Granite, there's a difference between calling a behavior shallow, and calling an individual shallow. You know that difference. I'm allowed to criticize behaviors; that's the point of this forum. You're not allowed to insult an individual. You need to stop arguing this for argument's sake. I admit when I'm wrong (as I did on the issue of the Buddhists). I'd appreciate if you do the same.

[GraniteJJ]

OK, the problem with that hypothetical is that you are fallaciously assuming that salvation is transferrable.  Jesus used the Parable of the Ten Virgins to explain this point.  In fact, read Matthew 25:8-9, which says "The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’  “ ‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’"
 
The point is, you're not allowed to ask that question anymore than you're allowed to ask about spherical triangles.

Shame on you for dodging that question. It wasn't a difficult one to answer. It was a simple yes or no, based entirely on the assumption that this scenario takes place in a universe where such a thing could happen. Instead, you reply with some quote from Matthew that hardly seems relevant at all.

For the record, I wasn't saying that you should transfer your salvation onto me. I said if we both found ourselves at the gates. As in, we're both on St. Peter's guest list but the dance floor is packed too tight. There is room for one person. Would you go, or would you let me go?

Yeah, but you don't learn physics by first learning that the earth is flat.  Santa Claus is equally false.

Santa Claus is a baby step towards believing whole-heartedly in the supernatural.

 
Granite, there's a difference between calling a behavior shallow, and calling an individual shallow.  You know that difference.  I'm allowed to criticize behaviors; that's the point of this forum.  You're not allowed to insult an individual.  You need to stop arguing this for argument's sake.  I admit when I'm wrong (as I did on the issue of the Buddhists).  I'd appreciate if you do the same.

I would concede, had you chosen your words better. However, you did not call the exchanging of gifts shallow. You called families who raised their kids to expect the exchanging of gifts shallow. This is an insult to actual people, not just a behaviour.

If kids need presents to be happy, then they've been raised in very shallow households.

This is insulting the integrity of millions of parents, and insulting the integrity of millions of children raised in those houses by the millions of parents. I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. I was not raised in a shallow household. My parents are decent parents. Any other kid who was delighted to find a gift wrapped under the tree was not raised in a household that lacked in any values.

[Goose]

This is insulting the integrity of millions of parents, and insulting the integrity of millions of children raised in those houses by the millions of parents. I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. I was not raised in a shallow household. My parents are decent parents. Any other kid who was delighted to find a gift wrapped under the tree was not raised in a household that lacked in any values.

Arunma did not call the parents of the children who expected presents on Christmas morning shallow, instead he was insinuating the fact that if a child NEEDS a present to be happy; then they have been rased to be shallow.

Speaking as an Australian dedicated Christian here, who celebrates Christmas and prays everyday, not just on the one day. I find that people have become very matirialistic on this day. We even sing, "Let it snow" Its the middle of summer.

I have to agree with most of what Arunma is saying. But thats my opinion.

[Oberon Storm]

Arunma did not call the parents of the children who expected presents on Christmas morning shallow, instead he was insinuating the fact that if a child NEEDS a present to be happy; then they have been rased to be shallow.

That really isn't any less insulting.

[Alakhriveion]

Yeah... I'm really not concerned with the kids, at this point, so much as everyone else- The rate at which people buy things and kill themselves in December is awful. Also, the children are used to fuel that, which is just as unfair to them as anything said above this post. "The only thing better than seeing a smile on a child's face is knowing you put it there. This Christmas is made possible by Toys 'r Us." Somehow, I think there's more to happiness than spending.

[Coltxdoom]

Seriously, what is wrong with letting kids be kids? I mean, seriously, the kids aren't going to understand the "true" meaning of Christmas as a kid anyway. They learn that they need to be giving and caring and such and that is Christian ways too. Catholics, who did not make up Christmas by the way, they put Jesus's birth near the winter solace so that they can worship without being persecuted. It would just look like they were worshiping the solace which was pagan not Catholic. STOP BLAMING THINGS ON CATHOLICS DAMNIT

Seriously, I expected more from you arunma. >_<;

Anyway, Catholics have this thing called CCD and thats where we learn about Jesus and God as kids so I've ALWAYS known the TRUE meaning of Christmas AND believed in Santa. So there.

And im not shallow eiether nor is my family. Stop JUDGING PEOPLE. That is against Christian belifs, as you should know Arunma.

I take it that she called us all shallow because of our upbringings. Isn't it against the rules to insult the beliefs of others?

[arunma]

Colt, I'm not blaming anything on the Catholics. You need to stop flying off the handle when someone says something about Catholicism. It's a fact that the Catholic Church decided on a specific date for Christmas. We don't really know when Jesus was born. These aren't attacks on teh Catholic Church; they're facts that many Catholics agree with.

If I was anti-Catholic, I wouldn't celebrate Christmas, because the holiday was created by the Roman Catholic Church. But I celebrate Christmas, Advent, and various other Christian Calendar holidays that were created by the Catholics. Do you still think I am anti-Catholic?

[arunma]

By the way, this issue isn't really about kids. Like I said, adults are into commercialism. I don't think we should buy each other expensive gifts for Christmas. Why can't people at least give meaningful gifts (like the gift of time) and keep themselves holy by staying away from electronics?

[Coltxdoom]

*rolls eyes* yes well, Catholism WAS first..so..well anyway we put it around the winter solace because we were persecuted.(although sometimes it seems like we STILL ARE)

The way you said that it seemed negative towards Catholics.

I give meaningful gifts, not always expensive. I give gifts even when I don't know if i'm going to get one back--I like making people happy by the IDEA of giving, not so much what the gift is. I think many people do that. Thats what Santa Claus does, he advocates the IDEA of giving to others.

GIVING to others IS something that Jesus taught, so how is Santa Claus a bad thing?

[arunma]

Well anyway Colt, you know that I like Catholics, so next time just remember that I'm not one to attack the Catholic Church.

And just to show I'm not pissed (ha! when am I ever?), here's a smiley face:

[Jasi]

Hey now, let's not be so sensitive, Colt. Calm down.

Anyway...
I think that it's perfectly fine to raise your children believing in Santa Claus as long as you let them know when the time comes that he's not real. I also believe that you should try to tell your kids from a very early age about the true meaning of Christmas, and make sure that they know that that's what it's all about.
I think the giving of gifts is quite good. It encourages people to be more generous than gluttonous. Everyone is thinking about other people throughout the Christmas season, and people are generally more kind to others when brought together by the Christmas spirit.

Christmas (and each aspect of it) is a wonderful way to remind us of how we should always act.

[Coltxdoom]

Oh god leave me the hell alone. >_<;

i'm just tired of people mentioning catholics as if they weren't Christians or something. And we are Christians too!

[Alakhriveion]

Oh god leave me the hell alone. >_<;
 
i'm just tired of people mentioning catholics as if they weren't Christians or something. And we are Christians too!

Sorry you feel that way, Colt, if you really find that sentiment offensive, I'm sure people could alter the way they talk about this to accomodate.

Couldn't they?

[Coltxdoom]

Sorry you feel that way, Colt, if you really find that sentiment offensive, I'm sure people could alter the way they talk about this to accomodate.
 
 Couldn't they?

Thanks, I should hope so! I just am tired of people acting as if we are like not even Christian, like we're muslim or something!

Yes, it would be nice if people had more respect for Catholics. You guys have no idea what going a semester at a school with people who diss on Catholics is like..simply terrible

[GraniteJJ]

By the way, this issue isn't really about kids.  Like I said, adults are into commercialism.  I don't think we should buy each other expensive gifts for Christmas.  Why can't people at least give meaningful gifts (like the gift of time) and keep themselves holy by staying away from electronics?

You can keep holy by staying away from Christmas on Jesus' birthday?

What if he wants to set up a LAN party?

[Jasi]

Dude, if Jesus had a LAN party...ohhh man.

[GraniteJJ]

I'm convinced Jesus would cheat. I mean, with divine powers on your side, who is to say you can't bump the damage your bullets do in Halo up to "Mega-Death"?

[Serra]

I was deeply interwoven in the church since I was born and my parents did not push on me to accept Jesus as the greatest thing in the world though both of them were pastors and such. They wanted me to figure it out on my own and because of that it is a lot more meaningful to me now than it could have been. The great problem with the church is all these people that think they are all great and holy and make outrageous claims on something like Santa Claus. People come out to celebrate the great gift of Jesus and celebrate because it is his birthday not just some random other day of the year. You can celebrate other things on the same day too, like St. Nick who was an important figure in the church and giving gifts at Christmas pretending they are from him makes good on his reputation for helping out the poor. Instead of ruining things for people by trying to get rid of something that brings joy, why not give that joy to those who are in need as well because they want to feel the joy of St. Nick as well. There are not many people that have enough money to give gifts to other people all the time so now you have a joyous occasion like Jesus's birth where you can give to one another which is what you should pay more attention to as a Christian instead of giving Santa the boot.

[arunma]

I was deeply interwoven in the church since I was born and my parents did not push on me to accept Jesus as the greatest thing in the world though both of them were pastors and such. They wanted me to figure it out on my own and because of that it is a lot more meaningful to me now than it could have been.

Great! I'm no parent, but your parents seem to be doing exactly the same kind of thing that Baptist theology dictates (that's why we don't baptize infants).

Why can't you reverence Saint Nicholas instead of his imposter, Santa Claus. And if you're going to give gifts (which by itself is fine), why can't you give meaningful gifts? I'm sorry, but an X-Box is not meaningful.

[Serra]

Who are you to dictate what is meaningful and what is not? Santa Claus is not an imposter they are the same person, I guy that goes through the chimneys of kids houses to give them gifts on Christmas. If you are cold, starving, and just about completely poor I don't think a little Christmas card that you design is going to be very meaningful to you. Here you are living your decent life and telling people that they cannot recieve anything they want except some crafts you would make in a church camp. That is not what the wise men gave to Jesus, that is not what Jesus gave to us, and that is not what St. Nick gave to the children in need because he doesn't think that low of us. You want an X-box and someone gives it to you that is meaningful, you want clothes and someone gives them to you that is also meaningful

[arunma]

Are you trying to tell me that an X-Box has meaning? I would think that this is self-evident.

[Oberon Storm]

No she is saying you are paying too much attention to the damn money. It isn't about the money. If someone wanted an X-box and didn't come close to having the means to get one but a friend or uncle or something goes out of their way to get one for them then they are greatful. It isn't the money. It's that someone cared enough to go out and get it.

[arunma]

I'm paying too much attention to the money? It seems to me that people who like sending and recieving expensive gifts are focusing too much on the money.

Either way, you won't convince me that an X-Box has meaning.

[Jasi]

Jor-El is right. Just because someone doesn't necessarily need to have an Xbox doesn't mean it's not a meaningful gift when given. 'Cause if the kid really really wants it and is truly grateful when he gets it, thennn it was meaningful, wouldn't you say so? My parents gave me a piano when I was 5, that's a pretty material gift. But uh, I've played piano for eleven years and I think it's safe to say that I'm really grateful that they bought it for me and I didn't have to save up the money to buy it myself.

[arunma]

Yeah, but what if you were playing an X-Box for eleven years? I'm sure you wouldn't feel the same way.

[Jasi]

But I bet you'd own everyone at Halo.