186 replies to this topic

[Selena]

I'm not buying any Christmas presents for anyone; I told others not to buy presents for me too.  I only have to buy a "present" for a secular friend of mine who already got what he calls a "Christmas" present for me.  I'm still giving it to him early, and making it clear that it's not a Christmas present.  This doesn't seem too hard.

You would think it sounds easy, but in my family, at least, even if you say you don't want something... you still get something. Thus, the guilt that I wouldn't be acting as generous as they are. Even if it is material things, it's something you share with another person.


As for it being a slap in the face... if that's the case, then why do Christians still give gifts to secular people? You would think if it really was a slap in the face, they wouldn't even bother, like you're trying to do. So maybe it's just a slap in the face to fundies. The rest of my Christian friends seem to be happy that they're bringing other people together in peace, which I think is what you should be focused on instead.


In this country, it's very difficult to celebrate something other than Christmas or Hanukkah and not be labeled strange in the end. Especially with all the influence from friends, media, and the like. It's a part of society.

[Alakhriveion]

You would think it sounds easy, but in my family, at least, even if you say you don't want something... you still get something. Thus, the guilt that I wouldn't be acting as generous as they are. Even if it is material things, it's something you share with another person.

So's sex, but you don't give that to all your friends on your god's birthday.

In this country, it's very difficult to celebrate something other than Christmas or Hanukkah and not be labeled strange in the end. Especially with all the influence from friends, media, and the like. It's a part of society.

That doesn't make it RIGHT.

[Selena]

Sex...? *shakes head* All righty then.




It doesn't make it right, does it? I think there's a pretty big grey area on what's right or wrong on this issue, given how far it's been allowed to go. You would think if it was that big of a deal, it would have stopped early on before Christmas became what it is today, and remained a purely Christian holiday. But perhaps people were trying to be welcoming to non-Christians who they cared for, and allowed them to join in.


Whether or not I think it's right... it's probably not, but I think it's a minor issue. I only celebrate it because my family does, and I would prefer giving them the same happiness they would try to give to me. I'm terribly sorry that I love them.

[Alakhriveion]

Sex...? *shakes head* All righty then.

I have this thing for powerful comparisons- I think my last one was comparing religion to pedophelia. Don't ask.

It doesn't make it right, does it? I think there's a pretty big grey area on what's right or wrong on this issue, given how far it's been allowed to go. You would think if it was that big of a deal, it would have stopped early on before Christmas became what it is today, and remained a purely Christian holiday. But perhaps people were trying to be welcoming to non-Christians who they cared for, and allowed them to join in.

That which pushes Lego is welcome. God does not. Santa does. Also, people very rarely want people who don't believe in the same god to join in their religion, but keep thier own beliefs. It requires people to want one another to be happy, and have kind intentions, and in case you missed the last 90 years, we fuckin' HATE each other.

Whether or not I think it's right... it's probably not, but I think it's a minor issue. I only celebrate it because my family does.

Fair enough. I think presents on Hannukah is silly, but I also think personal airliners are silly, so I'm not passing up either when the opperotunity arises.

[Selena]

in case you missed the last 90 years, we fuckin' HATE each other.

But... but... I don't hate you guys. Damn this new age vendetta crap. ;_;

[Oberon Storm]

The African Americans (the ones who don't celebrate Christmas) did it: it's called Kwanza, and it's only been around for about forty years.

Granted I may be a bit too cynical, but I always took Kwanza more as a political statement than a legit holiday.

No. Santa Claus is greed. Like I asked before, been to a Mall lately?

I think you missed Fizzbit's point. Santa isn't about greed to kids. And is a bit of a stretch to construe shopping malls as temples in Santa's honor.

[arunma]

WRONG. Christmas was originally a PAGAN holiday. Christians RAPED it, just like they raped Easter and Halloween, which were also Pagan Holidays.

Actually, this is quite wrong. Alak put it best as "Mac vs. PC." If Christmas was a pagan holiday, we'd be celebrating pagan gods and calling it Yule. But we call it Christmas and celebrate Jesus, which is why it's a Christian holiday. As for All Saints Eve (Halloween), same story.

Easter was turned into a day of Resurrection, and Halloween was a day of mischief and demons after the Christians had their way.

No, actually Easter is one of the holidays that actually comes from the Bible, although early Christians called it Pascha (Greek for Passover). The Old Testament tells us when Passover is, on the Hebrew lunar calendar. We also know that Jesus was crucified during the Passover, two days before the Sabbath. In fact, the only only thing that's "pagan" about Easter is the name, which we unfortunately have because a festival to the goddess Easter happened to take place around Passover.

Christmas was originally celebrated as a Solstice, a time of merriment. Now it's just the day when a supposed idol was born. Whoo, everyone has a birthday. Do people rejoice and spout sermons on George W. Bush's birthday? On my birthday? On your birthday? No.

Were you or George W. Bush slain for the sins of the world? No.

I can't help but get caught up in Christmas, whether I celebrate it or not. So, I choose to celebrate it as a time of merriment with my family, regardless of religion.

If I started celebrating the Jewish Passover (not to be confused with the Christian Passover), and then started adding Christian customs to it, Alak would have my head. See the problem with non-Christians celebrating Christmas?

And with Santa Claus, he was based off of an ACTUAL SAINT who gave shoes and food to Children and the less fortunate.

Yes, so perhaps we should keep Saint Nicholas in mind (being sure not to let him overshadow the Christ). Saint Nicholas was a man, not an omnipotent being who lives at the North Pole and delivers DVD players to the whole world.

So, Jesus was a saint too, no?

NO! Saints are forgiven sinners; all believers are saints. Jesus is the Son of the Lord God, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last, the Almighty. He is worthy to to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise.

See the difference?

Why deny the attention of one Saint so another can get all the attention?

See above.

Jesus was born on Christmas, according to Christianity, like I said, everyone's got a birthday.

And like I said, no one else has been baptized with the baptism of Jesus. In regular English terms, only Jesus has taken away the sins of the world.

Saint Nicholas actually gave the people items and tried to make them feel just that much more comfortable.

Yes, Saint Nicholas was a great man. That doesn't make him worthy of worship. In fact, Saint Nicholas was a bishop, and he would be appaled if he saw people paying him honor instead of Jesus.

To kids, Santa Claus is that secret charity (Christian-funded or not) that seeks out toys and clothing and non-perishable food items to make sure they and theif families have a good and happy holiday.

I don't know any kids who see Santa Claus as a figure of charity. Most kids just want the X-Box.

he's the parents that take a child's most desired item, say it's too expensive, and put it under the tree while they are asleep on Christmas Eve.

If a child desires expensive things that badly, he's way too spoiled. One major point of Christianity is to learn how to be content with what you have.

Children would MUCH rather have food, clothing, and maybe a little used teddy bear to play with than sit through a Christmas Sermon.

OK, the problem with that logic is that most children who have to listen to the Christmas Sermon live in comfortable homes with plenty of food, and expensive Abercrombie & Fitch clothes. Most want an HDTV, not just a teddy bear. Furthermore, most kids who don't have the food and clothing would love to listen to the Christmas Sermon, because poor people often have the greatest faith. As Jesus says, "blessed are the poor."

It doesn't matter if that child benefitting from the Charity is Muslim or Atheist or Jewish

Actually, Jews don't generally celebrate Christmas. I don't know a single one who does. Ask Alak for further details.

I think you missed Fizzbit's point. Santa isn't about greed to kids. And is a bit of a stretch to construe shopping malls as temples in Santa's honor.

Oh yes he is! I can't remember the last time I heard about Santa Claus delivering food to the poor. He's always delivering toys to kids who already have too many toys.

[Oberon Storm]

Oh yes he is! I can't remember the last time I heard about Santa Claus delivering food to the poor. He's always delivering toys to kids who already have too many toys.

OK. So when a four year old walks up to sit on Santas lap with a look of awe in their face their just being a greedy little bastard. It all makes sense now.

[Alakhriveion]

Kid's aren't like that. They're not greedy or generous. The idea of Santa Claus, though, is one of greed. If the man can get to every house on Earth in one night, why bother with the toys? It's plastic crap for the good little girls and boys, not medecine for dying children in poor countries.

[Oberon Storm]

And yet again someone fails to explain how Santa is sybolic of greed. Don't get me wrong. I see where greed comes in. The corporations that will do whatever they can be it lie, cheat, or steal to sell their product. But a jolly old fat guy? That gives out gifts to kids? By kids I mean like 6 and younger. Any older than that and it gets less likely they still believe in Santa. And lets keep in mind he ISN'T real. He is really more of a boogey man figure meant to make kids behave.


If your hang up is the giving of toys instead of meds to dying kids...OK. I can see the arguement.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

If I started celebrating the Jewish Passover (not to be confused with the Christian Passover), and then started adding Christian customs to it, Alak would have my head. See the problem with non-Christians celebrating Christmas?

Yes, but you technically worship the same God. That would be more like the way Protestants worship and the way Catholics worsihp. You all do things to celebrate or worship the same thing, but in different ways. Still, there's hatred between Catholics and Protestants too so I guess you're right there... It's a shame, really.

Yes, so perhaps we should keep Saint Nicholas in mind (being sure not to let him overshadow the Christ). Saint Nicholas was a man, not an omnipotent being who lives at the North Pole and delivers DVD players to the whole world.

I find it strange how you seem to be equating Saint Nicholas with being unchristian. He was a very devout Turkish Christian. When Jesus talked about compassion, he was out there being compassionate. Thing is, Saint Nick's day is 6th December (or on the Julian calendar, 19th December).

What I find even stranger is that there's a website devoted to him at http://www.stnicholascenter.org/.

Yes, the current image of Saint Nick was first introduced in 1930 by the Coca Cola Corporation, and his equation with Christmas is wrong (why should he have two days when his actual day is on the sixth?). But does he not at least represent what Jesus taught, to give selflessly?

Yes, Saint Nicholas was a great man. That doesn't make him worthy of worship. In fact, Saint Nicholas was a bishop, and he would be appaled if he saw people paying him honor instead of Jesus.

True, but he is a Saint and by Catholic standards, Saints should be venerated and celebrated. I guess it would be wrong, however, for non-Catholics to celebrate St. Nicholas' Day.

And furthermore, in what twisted world do you live in which people worship Santa? You're sure you not thinking of Satanists that worship Satan?

I don't know any kids who see Santa Claus as a figure of charity. Most kids just want the X-Box.

Well, that's upbringing for you.

Oh yes he is! I can't remember the last time I heard about Santa Claus delivering food to the poor. He's always delivering toys to kids who already have too many toys.

Well, that's because he's dead, isn't he?

Originally, children were given food probably as a reminder of how he gave food to those that needed it. Candy canes were also given as they represented his crozier. They were also placed in shoes, to remind children that he also gave shoes to those that really needed it.

There are people out there who still celebrate St. Nicholas properly.

You are currently all debating on the Americanised image of St. Nicholas, which is, as with quite a few Americanised things like the movie, U-571, completely wrong. Note, that when I say Americanised I usually mean perverted by American corporations or organisations.

Hollywood has its fair shares of making movies that are historically incorrect, as has Disney and all have in some way contributed to the spread of the perversion of the current image of St. Nicholaus.

You complain about "Santa Claus", a name derived from the Dutch for Saint Nicholas, Sinterklaas, overshadowing Christ. But I think the complaint should be about the perversion of historical characters and/or events by American corporations and Hollywood, to which Alak seems to be trying his debate to complain about.

[Alakhriveion]

The thing about Modern Santa Claus being a fully corporate image is the point of Jolly Jenkins. Who needs enlightenment when you can have STUFF?

Hollywood has its fair shares of making movies that are historically incorrect, as has Disney and all have in some way contributed to the spread of the perversion of the current image of St. Nicholaus.

A can of worms in it's own right...

[Alakhriveion]

Santa Claus can be annoted to Satan Claws, that might sound a bit harsh, but just think about it for awhile. Satan has decieved the nations to believe in jolly ol' Santa to dismay the birth of Jesus Christ. I personally have nothing against Santa, but it is work devised by the Devil himself.

That's just ridiculous. Santa Claus is obviously meant to make us forget St. Nick Jenkins is still in jail, by giving toys in exchange for complacency. Free Jolly Jenkins!

[Black Knight]

My Mom still says that Santa is real. It's disturbing and embarrassing. <_< Damn them holiday/ Santa movies.

[arunma]

OK. So when a four year old walks up to sit on Santas lap with a look of awe in their face their just being a greedy little bastard. It all makes sense now.

Logical fallacy: appeal to emotion. Also you're forcing me to choose between the statements "the kid is perfect in heart," and "he's a greedy little bastard." Why can't the four year old be said to "start showing the signs of greed?" Please don't speak in absolutes, at least not if you're making an argument (unless of course you really can justify the absolutes).

In any case, if a child sits on Santa's lap expecting the newest video game instead of food for all those starving kids you mentioned, then yes, that is greed. In fact, I would place the blame squarely at the feet of the parents for not bringing up their child with good Christian values.

[Alakhriveion]

I blame the parents for letting an old man hold kids on his lap.

[Alakhriveion]

I think there's some misunderstanding. I'm not a Christian, that stuff really doesn't concern me. Regardless, I can't stand the materialism that happens to have been encouraged by Christmas, so, we have Jolly Jenkins.

[arunma]

Darkseid, I'm glad that at least someone sees my point! Personally, I don't like to blame things on Satan (sure, there really is a demon called Satan, but I tend to think of him more as an expression of human sin, lest we blame someone else for our own sins). But it's good to know that I'm not alone on this Santa issue.

[arunma]

You're not a Christian, but you believe in the Bible? Interesting viewpoint, but it would help if you elaborated.

[arunma]

My parents are christians, they have are saved and Jesus Christ has shown them the light. I am on the other hand still drink, swear, and do all other kinds of sinful things, but that doesn't mean I wasn't raised right, but I am still blinded by the god of this world. I fall to much for the temptations that are presented around me, and thus I am still a sinner, but I still believe in the Bible. Hofefully that makes sense. If not I guess I can go into further detail.

Christians aren't perfect, you know. If you realize that you're blinded by the god of the current age, then that's the first step to ending that blinding. If you believe in Jesus and accept him as Lord, you're a Christian.

[Alakhriveion]

So basically God flooded the land in Noah's surrounding area, and Noah gathered the animals in the surrounding area, not Noah getting every single animal on all the Earth and the world be flooded around the entire world

That's still very, very impossible, but I digress... back to Santa.

[arunma]

Wolf, I'm very sorry I missed your post.

Yes, but you technically worship the same God. That would be more like the way Protestants worship and the way Catholics worsihp. You all do things to celebrate or worship the same thing, but in different ways. Still, there's hatred between Catholics and Protestants too so I guess you're right there... It's a shame, really.

Woah now! There's a HUGE difference here! Catholicism is a perfectly valid denomination of Christianity. The denominations are different flavors of the same religion. Yes, Catholics and Protestants kill each other in Ireland. But firstly, this is an isolated incident, and is not representative of Christendom. Secondly, the fact that Christians are killing their brothers proves that they are not practicing Christianity, and are thus anathema (apostate) from the church.

Judaism, on the other hand, is a completely separate religion. We do not celebrate and worship the same things as teh Jews. If you study the differences between Jewish and Christian views of God, you'll start to question if we even worship the same God (we just happen to both call him "the God of Abraham").

Don't get me wrong, Jews are generally very nice people. But they are not Christians, and they would resent being called Christians.

I find it strange how you seem to be equating Saint Nicholas with being unchristian. He was a very devout Turkish Christian. When Jesus talked about compassion, he was out there being compassionate. Thing is, Saint Nick's day is 6th December (or on the Julian calendar, 19th December).

I don't think you understand my point. Saint Nicholas was a good, Christian bishop. But the reverence and respect we give him borders on idolatry. If somebody bowed down at my feet and started worshiping me, I'd also consider the person an idolater (and I would rebuke him). This has nothing to do with Saint Nicholas the person.

Yes, the current image of Saint Nick was first introduced in 1930 by the Coca Cola Corporation, and his equation with Christmas is wrong (why should he have two days when his actual day is on the sixth?). But does he not at least represent what Jesus taught, to give selflessly?

Yes, so let's start paying more attention to what Nicholas taught, and less attention to the man himself. The only man that deserves the attention is Jesus.

True, but he is a Saint and by Catholic standards, Saints should be venerated and celebrated. I guess it would be wrong, however, for non-Catholics to celebrate St. Nicholas' Day.

Well first of all, while I respect Catholics, I don't agree with the veneration they give saints. Still, the powers of the saints comes from God (in Catholic theology); they have no power of their own. Teachings about Santa Claus, however, are completely divorced from Christianity and God.

Originally, children were given food probably as a reminder of how he gave food to those that needed it. Candy canes were also given as they represented his crozier. They were also placed in shoes, to remind children that he also gave shoes to those that really needed it.

Yes, but how many kids know this?

[Alakhriveion]

Ah but my good friend nothing is impossible for God. Also do not forget that it rained for forty days and forty nights, and these were not just some sprinkling raining down from the clouds it was an emergence of a great downpour.

Right, which, if it did happen, wouldn't be tolerable to life, there would be none left.

If you still think it is impossible then think of this from a scientific view for a moment. Most scientists said that there was no actitvity in the outer regions of the Solar System, and most would have agreed that the moons should be dull and dead much like our moon.

Umm... no. Where are you getting this from?

But surprise, surprise, moons such as Io have all kinds of volcanic activity. Take the Neptune's moon Triton for example as well. It is the coldest place in all the Solar System, where temperatures are so cold that nothing should be active, but what do we find out, why there is huge geysers of nitrogen that blast high into space.

How is this relevant?

There is so many things that we do not understand, so many things that we cannot possibly comprehend, that it is hard to just automatically come out and say "that is just impossible".

Easy way out, but no. If we don't understand it, then we don't understand it. Just because we don't doesn't mean we can't.