186 replies to this topic

[Alakhriveion]

Quote

Nothing can prove that it didn't happen either.

How do you mean? It CAN be proven that such a thing never happened. But this is for another thread- make one if you like. Back to Santa Claus.

[Coltxdoom]

Well..someone isn't getting anything from Santa..*cough* Arunma *cough*

[arunma]

Coltxdoom said

Well..someone isn't getting anything from Santa..*cough* Arunma *cough*

Haha. Yeah, well, Jesus is good enough of a Christmas present for me.

[Coltxdoom]

arunma said

Haha.  Yeah, well, Jesus is good enough of a Christmas present for me.

But Jesus doesn't put cool gifts in your stocking & under the tree!

[wisp]

Coltxdoom said

But Jesus doesn't put cool gifts in your stocking & under the tree!

But he does save your ass from an unpleasant eternity... Jesus is f'ing metal!

[GraniteJJ]

Wow Arunma...

Honestly, I hope you never have kids and raise them without the common imaginative stimulants. That would be God awful.

I mean, honestly, if you picture two scenarios of parents telling their kids things at Christmas, which is more appropriate:

1) And if you've been good all year, Santa will come here with his eight reindeer and deliver you what you want the very most.

OR

2) Some kid was born today in a manger. So, techniquely its a regular day, we just have to think of him MORE than any other day of the year.

The kid might be a tad bitter.

Believing in Santa Claus is not idolatry. This is simply because believing in the supernatural other than God is not idolatry. Arunma believes in Satan (a supernatural being) and angels (supernatural beings) and even mischievous demons (supernatural beings. He does not, however, worship them. Worshiping is different than believing in them. Kids believe in Santa Claus. They don't worship him. Mall displays are not temples any more than a news stand is the religious ground for the media workers.

Kids look up to Santa Claus. The image of Santa Claus teaches them to believe in things that we can't see. This is a stepping stone to fully believing and accepting Jesus. If you tell your three year old son or daughter all the Bible has to teach, they're going to wonder what the hell you're talking about. If you tell them about Christmas miracles and jolly old fat men who spread Christmas cheer, than you've got a different scenario.

Santa Claus is a fictional character, but it makes children happy. It doesn't take away from Jesus. If I were to go around my town and take a poll of "What the day of Christmas is meant to commemorate, 90% would say Jesus (I'm assuming there are 10% other faiths within my town, some of the 10% left out may also be people who are mentally handicapped, or people who are inable to speak).

I agree with davogones' idea though. Divorce Jesus' birthday from Christianity and make it two holidays, the religious one and the secular one. The secular one has become a world-wide staple of peace, joy and forgiving, etc. Jesus Birthday can be exclusive only to Christians. Makes sense to me. Davogones for President.

But whatever. Frankly, I'm of the opinion that arunma wants to ban Santa because it teaches us that supernatural entities who promise things and appear to deliver them turn out to be a big farce put on by our forefathers in the end. :S

[arunma]

Well Granite, I certainly give you credit for advocating Santa Claus for the purpose of increasing the faith of children, rather than making the holiday secular.

However, there are other problems. I doubt that 90% of Americans would equate the holiday with Jesus. Many people don't even know who Jesus is, these days. Most people would advocate Christmas with "love and charity," if you ask me. And those are two things that should be important every day.

My main point is not the idolatry issue. It's that Santa Claus represents capitalism and materialism, and those values are contrary to Christianity. That's why we need to get rid of Santa.

[Coltxdoom]

geez arunma..how can you take away a kids imagination of santa clause? Ruin their imagination and dreams? God wouldn't want that. I mean, when kids become old enough they won't believe in him anyway so why not let them have the fun while it lasts?

[arunma]

Because I think it's more fun for them to believe in Jesus.

[Stew]

Hey, Arunma try telling this to little kids, I can just imagine you telling a large crowd of children going

Arunma: Santa is FAKE! Believe in Jesus, you will be saved.. and on, and on, and on until you have little kids crying and asking you WHY ARUMA WHY!!??!! Come on, I don't think little kids belliefs in Santa will over power the Christian religion.

And, just asking, what happens if Christianity isn't the true blue religion?

[Oberon Storm]

The analogy to prayer in school doesn't fit.

[arunma]

Bunny said

Arunma: Santa is FAKE! Believe in Jesus, you will be saved.. and on, and on, and on until you have little kids crying and asking you WHY ARUMA WHY!!??!! Come on, I don't think little kids belliefs in Santa will over power the Christian religion.

Didn't I already mention in an earlier post my Greek Orthodox friend with the five year old girl who recites the Lord's prayer every night, and who understands that Jesus died for her sins? Kids are much smarter than ou think. They can understand Christianity just fine. But they only recieve what the adults will feed them. So they should recieve Jesus instead of capitalism and materialism.

Bunny said

And, just asking, what happens if Christianity isn't the true blue religion?

Then another religion is correct. What of it?

[arunma]

Youngday said

Stop trying to end other beliefs because you find there agianst yours, or soon, the world will be just like school, Full of rebels doing what they want to do at the cost of there own freedom.

As has already been said, the analogy of school prayer is incorrect. Even I am against forced school prayer. Prayer (in my mind, anyway) should be an option for students, not a requirement.

Anyway, society already is full of rebels doing what they want. That's what Santa Claus is all about. More people celebrate Santa than Jesus. I'm admonishing all Christians to ignore Santa and the presents, and to focus on Jesus. Are you saying that I can't even tell other Christians how I think they should behave?

[Alakhriveion]

Quote

Honestly, I hope you never have kids and raise them without the common imaginative stimulants. That would be God awful.

You know, I've gotten along just fine (debatable) raised secular.

Quote

oh boy this will be fun. In 1992 a woman came to the school saying that people were being unfair to say that kids must pray to Jesus is school. That it's unfair to there families that kids must state under god after the pledge of alligance. The school went to court, and sure enough, No more religion is allowed in school. Sounds wrong doesnt it?

No, it doesn't. Freedom of Religion and Seperation of Church and State are very important principles, and it dissapoints me that this hasn't been done in more states.

Quote

Stop trying to end other beliefs because you find there agianst yours, or soon, the world will be just like school, Full of rebels doing what they want to do at the cost of there own freedom.

Did you read this before posting it?

Quote

And, just asking, what happens if Christianity isn't the true blue religion?

Well, I think this is relevant to it's internal issues (I just happen to get involved in everything because I KNOW I'm right), so I don't think that matters righ now.

Quote

Are you saying that I can't even tell other Christians how I think they should behave?

Well, you can't make them behave properly.

[arunma]

True Alak. I can't make them do anything. But I can tell them that I think they are doing wrong.

And as you said, it's a Christian, internal issue. Whether or not Christianity is correct is irrelevant.

[GraniteJJ]

arunma said

Didn't I already mention in an earlier post my Greek Orthodox friend with the five year old girl who recites the Lord's prayer every night, and who understands that Jesus died for her sins? Kids are much smarter than ou think. They can understand Christianity just fine. But they only recieve what the adults will feed them. So they should recieve Jesus instead of capitalism and materialism.

No, the kid is not smarter than we think. The child doesn't understand Christianity to its fullest. It understands that its parents believe that Christianity is right, and if Christianity is right for the parents it must be right for the child. That is how I was raised. When I was a child, I had no idea of any other religions. I have talked with my parents about other religions since (now that I'm no longer a child) and my sisters stand there dumbfounded. Because they were raised Christian, they know nothing but Christianity.

Alak said

You know, I've gotten along just fine (debatable) raised secular.

Imagination has nothing to do with being secular or religious...

And for God's sake Alak, start using names in your quote tags.

I really don't see the big idea with Santa. Santa has become a cultural phenomenon. In and of himself, he embodies the miracle of the human capacity to show affection, love, and compassion. He is almost like the PR guy for Jesus and the poster boy for heaven.

[arunma]

Granite said

No, the kid is not smarter than we think. The child doesn't understand Christianity to its fullest. It understands that its parents believe that Christianity is right, and if Christianity is right for the parents it must be right for the child. That is how I was raised. When I was a child, I had no idea of any other religions. I have talked with my parents about other religions since (now that I'm no longer a child) and my sisters stand there dumbfounded. Because they were raised Christian, they know nothing but Christianity.

Granite, you're basing your thesis off your own personal experience. I'm basing mine off the observation of other children. I work with children all the time when I go to public schools with the physics club. Trust me, they are much smarter than you think. Even a child can have a full understanding of Christ. Jesus obviously knew this. Most scholars think that his disciples were all teenagers.

Granite said

I really don't see the big idea with Santa. Santa has become a cultural phenomenon.

Aha! You've identified the problem yourself! You see Granite, the church is supposed to be separate from the world. Just as Israel was commanded not to mix with the Gentiles, the church is commanded to separate itself from the rest of the world. We don't want Christmas to be a cultural phenomenon. Christmas is for Christians only. To put it simply, Christians have a monopoly on Christianity. We don't desecrate the holidays of others, so they shouldn't desecrate ours.

Granite said

He is almost like the PR guy for Jesus and the poster boy for heaven.

If Karl Rowe had advertised himself until November, President Bush wouldnt' have won reelection. Whatever you think of Bush (you know my feelings on this issue), campaign managers do well to magnify their candidates and not themselves. Likewise, if Santa were so great of a PR guy, he'd magnify Jesus instead of himself. But he doesn't. So I don't want him around.

[Serra]

Don't you know that the whole idea of giving gifts at Christmas is because the wise men gave Jesus gifts which he really didn't even need. Santa Claus was an actual person and gave gifts to kids because they were poor and starving and all that stuff because it was charitable. Kids are materialistic no matter what you do to them, they will care about Santa more than Jesus's birth even if you take Santa away. And if Santa can get the kids to be good for an entire season why do you want to just get rid of him? They will be impacted by Jesus at a later time when they learn Santa does not exist and it will grow on them because they get excited about the holidays, look at all the nativities and have great family fun together. And saying no non-Christians can celebrate Christmas is going against everything being a Christian stands for which is to try and gather the people to believe in Jesus. You take Christmas away from them and you close the door to them.

[arunma]

Serra said

Don't you know that the whole idea of giving gifts at Christmas is because the wise men gave Jesus gifts which he really didn't even need.

Jesus was given gifts because it was right for the King of the universe to be celebrated upon his birth. Are you saying we give children the same honor Jesus recieved?

Serra said

Kids are materialistic no matter what you do to them, they will care about Santa more than Jesus's birth even if you take Santa away.

No they're not. Kids behave differently based on how you raise them. Some kids are materialistic, and others are selfless. The idea here is to raise them so that they find more joy in Jesus than in presents for themselves.

Serra said

And if Santa can get the kids to be good for an entire season why do you want to just get rid of him?

Santa doesn't get kids to be good for an entire season. I think most kids get their gifts no matter what. Besides, when was the last time Santa threatened a kid to behave well in February? Kids only remember Santa before Christmas. Jesus, however, can be remembered all the time.

Serra said

They will be impacted by Jesus at a later time when they learn Santa does not exist and it will grow on them because they get excited about the holidays, look at all the nativities and have great family fun together.

When I became a Christian, it had nothing to do with family fun. And I don't really like nativities, because I prefer not to make images of Jesus, it seems to me like idolatry (no, I'm not suggesting that others get rid of their nativities, I'm only stating a personal preference) Materialistic pleasure is contrary to Christianity. You can have the family fun without the presents. If kids need presents to be happy, then they've been raised in very shallow households.

Serra said

And saying no non-Christians can celebrate Christmas is going against everything being a Christian stands for which is to try and gather the people to believe in Jesus.

When did I say that Christians shouldn't celebrate Christmas? I celebrate Christmas: I go to church and we light Advent candles. That is a celebration of Christmas. I'm saying that only Christians should celebrate Christmas. Everyone else can celebrate . I find it offensive for non-Christians to celebrate Christmas, unless they do it the right way.

Last year I read that a bunch of Hindus got together every Christmas at their temple to read the nativity story from the Gospel of Luke. Sure, they're not Christians, but this is acceptable. Non-Christians celebrating by buying surround sound systems for each other is not.

Serra said

You take Christmas away from them and you close the door to them.

I've celebrated Christmas every year for my whole life (though now I do it much differently). It never did a thing to teach me about Christ. When I was a kid, Jesus was the last thing on my mind during Christmas.

...wait, that's a lie. He wasn't even on my mind. See the problem?

[GraniteJJ]

arunma said

Granite, you're basing your thesis off your own personal experience.  I'm basing mine off the observation of other children.  I work with children all the time when I go to public schools with the physics club.  Trust me, they are much smarter than you think.  Even a child can have a full understanding of Christ.  Jesus obviously knew this.  Most scholars think that his disciples were all teenagers.
 
 
Aha!  You've identified the problem yourself!  You see Granite, the church is supposed to be separate from the world.  Just as Israel was commanded not to mix with the Gentiles, the church is commanded to separate itself from the rest of the world.  We don't want Christmas to be a cultural phenomenon.  Christmas is for Christians only.  To put it simply, Christians have a monopoly on Christianity.  We don't desecrate the holidays of others, so they shouldn't desecrate ours.
 
 
If Karl Rowe had advertised himself until November, President Bush wouldnt' have won reelection.  Whatever you think of Bush (you know my feelings on this issue), campaign managers do well to magnify their candidates and not themselves.  Likewise, if Santa were so great of a PR guy, he'd magnify Jesus instead of himself.  But he doesn't.  So I don't want him around.

Arunma, I'm amongst children five days a week, both young and old. So don't hold your physics club excursions over my head as some sort of up in the debate. What the hell does your physics club do at elementary schools anyway?

But lets take a gamble and pretend what you say is true. If children can possess an understanding of Jesus, how does believing in Santa for one month (tops) a year prevent them from worshiping Jesus? Seriously, I think your opinions on children don't exactly fit with your arguement against Santa. You claim they can possess a perfect understanding in Christ, but somehow believing in any fictional character will block this capacity indefinitely. Oh my. Better start banning childrens books. I don't want little boys and girls to start thinking Franklin (who appears in books, movies, tv shows, and on all sorts of toys) is some sort of demi-god. Let's stop kids from hearing about unicorns too. Some kids are deluded into believing they are real. Sacriledge! Burn the little scamps!

Santa is not a bad thing. It's amazing that you find such a major objection with the idea of someone spreading cheer to all. Sure, he isn't Jesus. He's the clown at Jesus' birthday party. Cut him some slack. He makes kids happy.

Another thing I decided to add. My fathers birthday is on Christmas. Is it wrong of me to give him a gift, just because he isn't "King of the Universe"? Well screw that. My dad is more of a king of the universe than Jesus or God have ever been. My dad has been there for me, and even though sometimes he gets on my nerves, he's still done a hell of a lot more than I can say for the works of Jesus. The works of Jesus and God have been twisted to the point where any action creates some form of intolerance. Even you, a fundamentalist Christian who is seemingly high on their own relationship with God, exhibits intolerance. I can be intolerant at times to, but I don't hide behind God while I do it.

And a final note, I didn't say Christmas was a cultural phenomenon. If you look at my exact words (which you quoted but apparently couldn't read), I said "Santa has become a cultural phenomenon". Monopoly on Christmas be damned. It just became an oligopoly. Santa is creating his own holiday, it just happens to be at the same time. And just like Yule became Christmas, Christmas is becoming the generic winter holiday for all. Maybe one day, we will celebrate Festivus at this time.

Oh, one last thing:

arunma said

No they're not. Kids behave differently based on how you raise them. Some kids are materialistic, and others are selfless. The idea here is to raise them so that they find more joy in Jesus than in presents for themselves.

Hahaha! Oh, that's rich. No one is entirely selfless...Tell me, do you consider yourself selfless?

[arunma]

A lot of people are selfless. Selflessness is relativistic. No one is perfectly selfless or perfectly materialistic. It's a continuous scale. You know this Granite.

OK...now on to the rest.

Granite said

And just like Yule became Christmas, Christmas is becoming the generic winter holiday for all.

That's incorrect. The Catholic Church created Christmas. And they created it around Yule so that former pagans would feel more welcome in the church. Practicing pagans still had Yule. Those pagans never changed their holiday, and to this day some pagans celebrate Yule.

Granite said

Another thing I decided to add. My fathers birthday is on Christmas. Is it wrong of me to give him a gift, just because he isn't "King of the Universe"?

That's another incorrect analogy. Your father's birthday has nothing to do with Christmas, aside from it being on the same day. If his birthday was on another day, would you still buy him a gift?

Granite said

Santa is not a bad thing. It's amazing that you find such a major objection with the idea of someone spreading cheer to all. Sure, he isn't Jesus. He's the clown at Jesus' birthday party. Cut him some slack. He makes kids happy.

Pot makes kids happy too. Is it a good thing? My point is, happiness does not equate to morality.

Granite said

Seriously, I think your opinions on children don't exactly fit with your arguement against Santa. You claim they can possess a perfect understanding in Christ, but somehow believing in any fictional character will block this capacity indefinitely. Oh my. Better start banning childrens books. I don't want little boys and girls to start thinking Franklin (who appears in books, movies, tv shows, and on all sorts of toys) is some sort of demi-god. Let's stop kids from hearing about unicorns too. Some kids are deluded into believing they are real. Sacriledge! Burn the little scamps!

Why do you keep bringing kids into this? Let's worry about the adults first. Adults may not believe in a jolly old man at the north pole, but they still believe in Santa in the sense that they celebrate his holiday by diving into capitalism and materialism. Granite, you're confusing the issue. The issue at hand is that Christmas has become a Feast of Capitalism. Forget Santa if you like.

Granite said

Even you, a fundamentalist Christian who is seemingly high on their own relationship with God, exhibits intolerance.

Granite, I wouldn't expect this from you. That comment doesn't befit a Contro mod. You should really think about that.

[GraniteJJ]

My comment doesn't befit a Contro mod. What about you saying kids who expect gifts at Christmas were brought up in a shallow household? That's an attack on every single person here who has had a "traditional" Christmas. Have our families done some grave wrong in raising us?

arunma said

Jesus was given gifts because it was right for the King of the universe to be celebrated upon his birth. Are you saying we give children the same honor Jesus recieved?

This is what you said. Implying it was wrong to give gifts to eachother on Jesus' birthday, because only he deserves them. If I gave my dad a birthday gift, I was asking if that would be wrong, in your eyes, because I am honouring my dad instead of Jesus on Christmas. Jesus has been a significantly smaller part of my life than my dad.

arunma said

Pot makes kids happy too. Is it a good thing? My point is, happiness does not equate to morality.

Happiness does not equate to immorality either. You said kids can be happy praising Jesus. If Jesus can make kids happy too, what makes it a good thing over the innocent belief in Father Christmas?

arunma said

Adults may not believe in a jolly old man at the north pole, but they still believe in Santa in the sense that they celebrate his holiday by diving into capitalism and materialism.

Adults don't believe in Santa. They continue the myth of Santa to make their kids giddy at Christmas. They do it because they like to see their kids happy, not because they want to further capitalism and materialism. Parents know perfectly well that Santa isn't real. That is why when their kids get old enough, the parents tell the kids that Santa isn't real. But, when the kids grow up, they know how much joy believing in Santa brought them. How much excitement there was to run out to the Christmas tree and see gifts that weren't there the night before. The parents remember those feelings, and in turn, continue the tradition so their kids will have the same memory.

arunma said

The Catholic Church created Christmas. And they created it around Yule so that former pagans would feel more welcome in the church. Practicing pagans still had Yule. Those pagans never changed their holiday, and to this day some pagans celebrate Yule.

Then follow the indirect advice of the pagans. The "evil" capitalism has created a new Christmas. They created it around the Christian Christmas so that Christians wouldn't feel awkward participating. Practicing Christians can still have ol' Christmas. Those Christians don't have to change their holiday.

Arunma, you cannot force all of society, who adores this new Christmas as a time of unity, of family, of honesty, of love to ignore these traditional beliefs to stop celebrating and go back to their own holidays. Christmas has become for everyone now. What you do on the day is up to you? Do you really think Jesus wants 6 billion people at his birthday party anyway?

arunma said

A lot of people are selfless. Selflessness is relativistic. No one is perfectly selfless or perfectly materialistic. It's a continuous scale. You know this Granite.

I'd say about 1 child in 1000 is remotely selfless. We're talking about children here. If you were to step into a crowd of them and offer one free chocolate bar, they'd all scramble at you. You wouldn't have all but one step back and say "Give the chocolate bar to little Becky for her family is the poorest of all of us."

Sync up with reality...

[arunma]

Granite said

My comment doesn't befit a Contro mod. What about you saying kids who expect gifts at Christmas were brought up in a shallow household? That's an attack on every single person here who has had a "traditional" Christmas. Have our families done some grave wrong in raising us?

This is Contro, we're supposed to make such provokative statements. Telling everyone else that what they're doing is wrong will provoke controversy. Saying that someone is "high on their relationship..." however, is name calling. I really think you should apologize. But hey, it's just me, and I don't easily get pissed, so whatever. Still, it sets a very bad example, and I think if other people started name calling, you would pounce on them without delay.

Granite said

This is what you said. Implying it was wrong to give gifts to eachother on Jesus' birthday, because only he deserves them. If I gave my dad a birthday gift, I was asking if that would be wrong, in your eyes, because I am honouring my dad instead of Jesus on Christmas. Jesus has been a significantly smaller part of my life than my dad.

The point is, people give gifts because it is Christmas. That is what is wrong.

Granite said

Happiness does not equate to immorality either. You said kids can be happy praising Jesus. If Jesus can make kids happy too, what makes it a good thing over the innocent belief in Father Christmas?

I see capitalism as a social evil. That's why in my opinion, being happy because of it is wrong.

Granite said

Adults don't believe in Santa.

No, but they do believe in what he stands for.

Granite said

Then follow the indirect advice of the pagans. The "evil" capitalism has created a new Christmas. They created it around the Christian Christmas so that Christians wouldn't feel awkward participating. Practicing Christians can still have ol' Christmas. Those Christians don't have to change their holiday.

That logic would only work if we Christians had converted to secularism. Until then, I think you should leave our holiday alone. At least stop calling it Christmas.

But that's not the point, I'm talking about what Christians should do, not what veryone else should do.

Granite said

Arunma, you cannot force all of society, who adores this new Christmas as a time of unity, of family, of honesty, of love to ignore these traditional beliefs to stop celebrating and go back to their own holidays.

Great social reforms have happened before.

Granite said

I'd say about 1 child in 1000 is remotely selfless. We're talking about children here. If you were to step into a crowd of them and offer one free chocolate bar, they'd all scramble at you. You wouldn't have all but one step back and say "Give the chocolate bar to little Becky for her family is the poorest of all of us."

The problem here is that you made up the statistic of "1 child in 1000." That's your personal opinion, and you haven't based it on anything but your own beliefs about children. You can't ascribe any validity to it.

I'd say the proportion of selfless children reflects the adult community. But that's just me.

[Alakhriveion]

Granite said

And for God's sake Alak, start using names in your quote tags.

*ahem* Yeah.

Granite said

They do it because they like to see their kids happy, not because they want to further capitalism and materialism.

Intentions don't matter, it renforces those ideas none the less.

Arunma said

Great social reforms have happened before.

Not this one. After the Revolution, the Russian people were perfectly happy to smash churches and cast aside their sacred opiate, but they refused to let go of holidays. Christmas became a "Snow Festival" sort of thing, which is why Soviet Jews often participate.

Arunma said

This is Contro, we're supposed to make such provokative statements.

It's probably our biggest fault that we do, but what is, might be.

[GraniteJJ]

arunma said

This is Contro, we're supposed to make such provokative statements.  Telling everyone else that what they're doing is wrong will provoke controversy.  Saying that someone is "high on their relationship..." however, is name calling.  I really think you should apologize.  But hey, it's just me, and I don't easily get pissed, so whatever.  Still, it sets a very bad example, and I think if other people started name calling, you would pounce on them without delay.
 

Whoa. Wait a minute arunma.

Let me try to grasp this.

Saying that you are high on your relationship with God is an insult, but you saying that if "you've taught you children to expect Christmas gifts then you are shallow" doesn't qualify as an insult.

Calling someone shallow is an insult. My family was raised to exchange presents at Christmas as a sign of affection. The focus of the gifts at Christmas has nothing to do with the money involved. The gifts exchanged at Christmas are important because of who they're from, not how much they are worth. Exchanging any gifts, even something as small as a little pig made out of erasers and paper clips, would be "furthering capitalism". You're furthering the office supply industry. Capitalism is involved in any exchange of goods. Are you demanding Christians to boycott purchases on Christmas?

The way I look at Christmas gifts is that you show people how much you love them by proving that money is no object. Money is unimportant, while the person is. That's what matters at Christmas. Anyone who gets an impression contrary to this is misunderstanding the exchange of gifts at Christmas.

arunma said

That logic would only work if we Christians had converted to secularism.  Until then, I think you should leave our holiday alone.  At least stop calling it Christmas.

You always claim that the bulk of Christians are secular Christians. You say that if they celebrate Christmas the "capitalist way" than they aren't good Christians. Well, I'd say a fair chunk are leaning towards secularism, so it does work. I'm basing this off of things you've said.

Also, I don't think anyone would have to stop calling it Christmas. It is a name that refers to the time, not the goings on AT the time.

arunma said

The problem here is that you made up the statistic of "1 child in 1000."  That's your personal opinion, and you haven't based it on anything but your own beliefs about children.  You can't ascribe any validity to it.

Tell you what arunma. Go to every public school within your city (or if you live in a small city, widen your range). As the staff if you can conduct a quick poll with their students, in the interest of science. Ask the kids if they want a chocolate bar. Open your backpack in dismay and say "Aw crap. Looks like I only have three left. Who wants it?"

The kids will all want the chocolate bar. They wont selflessly give it up to another member of their class. In fact, I'm willing to bet that in most cases, the teacher will suggest sharing before a student does (you will have the occasional student who suggest sharing simply because they realise it is the best way to get at least part of the chocolate bar).

Try it. See how selfless children are.

[Serra]

Kids want these, adults want things, everyone wants things and there is no end to how much anyone wants. You recieve one thing then you want another if you get that you want another and it continues on like that for every last human being on this earth. Santa gives presents to children which gets them to be good for an entire month and teaches them to give to one another. And when I said season I meant the season of advent. Why would a child worship Jesus more than Santa, in their eyes at that time Jesus hasn't done anything for them but Santa gives them gifts as they learn about Jesus's birth. In time the learn what Jesus did for them and except it as a greater gift than what Santa ever gave to them. And if you think children worship Santa and we must get rid of him then why not just get rid of TV since the love cartoons so much and go out to buy stuff which look like their favorite characters. The only person to ever be completely selfless was Jesus, there is no such thing as selflessness for anyone else in the world because in the back of your mind you always want something out of the good things you do. And Jesus was never an "ultimate king" he did not rule over anything, he did not claim to have power over people, he returned gifts to everyone as if they were equal to him and during Christmas we do the same to each other one day out of the year. Santa does not scorn you any worse than the Bible for things you do wrong to each other, but in the end he forgives you and gives you a present.

[GraniteJJ]

Wow Serra. Those comments in the last part of your post were actually very valid, and in most instances something I didn't even consider.

[Alakhriveion]

Quote

Tell you what arunma. Go to every public school within your city (or if you live in a small city, widen your range). As the staff if you can conduct a quick poll with their students, in the interest of science. Ask the kids if they want a chocolate bar. Open your backpack in dismay and say "Aw crap. Looks like I only have three left. Who wants it?"

The kids will all want the chocolate bar. They wont selflessly give it up to another member of their class. In fact, I'm willing to bet that in most cases, the teacher will suggest sharing before a student does (you will have the occasional student who suggest sharing simply because they realise it is the best way to get at least part of the chocolate bar).

Try it. See how selfless children are.

Yeah, kids suck.

[arunma]

GraniteJJ said

Whoa. Wait a minute arunma.

Let me try to grasp this.

Saying that you are high on your relationship with God is an insult, but you saying that if "you've taught you children to expect Christmas gifts then you are shallow" doesn't qualify as an insult.

Calling someone shallow is an insult. My family was raised to exchange presents at Christmas as a sign of affection. The focus of the gifts at Christmas has nothing to do with the money involved. The gifts exchanged at Christmas are important because of who they're from, not how much they are worth. Exchanging any gifts, even something as small as a little pig made out of erasers and paper clips, would be "furthering capitalism". You're furthering the office supply industry. Capitalism is involved in any exchange of goods. Are you demanding Christians to boycott purchases on Christmas?

The way I look at Christmas gifts is that you show people how much you love them by proving that money is no object. Money is unimportant, while the person is. That's what matters at Christmas. Anyone who gets an impression contrary to this is misunderstanding the exchange of gifts at Christmas.



You always claim that the bulk of Christians are secular Christians. You say that if they celebrate Christmas the "capitalist way" than they aren't good Christians. Well, I'd say a fair chunk are leaning towards secularism, so it does work. I'm basing this off of things you've said.

Also, I don't think anyone would have to stop calling it Christmas. It is a name that refers to the time, not the goings on AT the time.



Tell you what arunma. Go to every public school within your city (or if you live in a small city, widen your range). As the staff if you can conduct a quick poll with their students, in the interest of science. Ask the kids if they want a chocolate bar. Open your backpack in dismay and say "Aw crap. Looks like I only have three left. Who wants it?"

The kids will all want the chocolate bar. They wont selflessly give it up to another member of their class. In fact, I'm willing to bet that in most cases, the teacher will suggest sharing before a student does (you will have the occasional student who suggest sharing simply because they realise it is the best way to get at least part of the chocolate bar).

Try it. See how selfless children are.

Serra said

Why would a child worship Jesus more than Santa, in their eyes at that time Jesus hasn't done anything for them but Santa gives them gifts as they learn about Jesus's birth.

Well, apparently you see the problem with Santa too.