186 replies to this topic

[Alakhriveion]

No she is saying you are paying too much attention to the damn money. It isn't about the money. If someone wanted an X-box and didn't come close to having the means to get one but a friend or uncle or something goes out of their way to get one for them then they are greatful. It isn't the money. It's that someone cared enough to go out and get it.

Then why does it HAVE to be manifested materially?

[Selena]

What would you rather we exchange, then? A little materialism never killed anyone. Christmas is probably the only time I received a gift, or for that matter, something new in general. I have no money, and can't buy anything for myself. My birthday, I tell them not to get me anything. Some kids grow ~out~ of the 'gimme, gimme, gimme' phase, believe it or not. I, for one, don't really want anything anymore. Know what I want for Christmas? Textbooks for the college!


The rest of the year, I don't bother buying/wanting to receive something from your 'evil empire'.


You're all taking this to extremes, I think. Lighten up, just a liiiittle. The holiday is meant to be fun.

[arunma]

Know what I want for Christmas? Textbooks for the college!

OK, that at least isn't capitalism worship. There's nothing wrong with textbooks.

You're all taking this to extremes, I think. Lighten up, just a liiiittle. The holiday is meant to be fun.

Actually, a "holiday" is a holy day. It was never meant to be all fun and games.

[Oberon Storm]

I'm paying too much attention to the money? It seems to me that people who like sending and recieving expensive gifts are focusing too much on the money.

Either way, you won't convince me that an X-Box has meaning.

It isn't about the money. The money isn't an object. The only effect money has is the weight of the buyers wallet. But they don't care how much it costs. All they care about is that someone they care for wants this thing so they are going to get it for them. All the person who received the gift thinks is "Wow! Someone I care about cares enough about ME to get me something."

Of course the days after x-mas is when we get the most item returns at work. Usually bad sweaters. But 9 times out of ten they are still touched by the thought.

[Alakhriveion]

But 9 times out of ten they are still touched by the thought.

So if it's the thought that counts, why bother with the money, and the stuff?

[Serra]

Because it means you actually gave up something for them instead of hoarding all your money for yourself. Christmas is meant to be fun and games, it is Jesus's birthday if you don't realize that and he gets the biggest party in all the world to remember him. You sacrifice a little cash for someone to give them a gift and they feel happy as well, you say that you hate the idea of materialism on Christmas it shows you off as self-centered because you aren't sharing to anyone. Maybe you don't understand what the kids were going through in poverty back when St. Nick was truly around, but I do happen to know what it is like just about and I was grateful that Santa (who was really the people who cared) gave me gifts to cherish as a child since I didn't have many toys to play with.

[Alakhriveion]

Because it means you actually gave up something for them instead of hoarding all your money for yourself... You sacrifice a little cash for someone to give them a gift and they feel happy as well, you say that you hate the idea of materialism on Christmas it shows you off as self-centered because you aren't sharing to anyone.

You misunderstand. No-one's suggesting you keep the money for yourself, that's even worse than using it to buy people things they don't need. Use it to make the world a better place, or something.

Maybe you don't understand what the kids were going through in poverty back when St. Nick was truly around, but I do happen to know what it is like just about and I was grateful that Santa (who was really the people who cared) gave me gifts to cherish as a child since I didn't have many toys to play with.

It's a pretty damn far leap from charity to avarice.

[Serra]

What you seem to be forgetting is that there are no needs, there are only wants. Some wants out weigh others but you can't tell someone what they do or do not want. The point of Christmas is to give to others because God gave us his son, the wise men gave Jesus gifts, Jesus gave himself for us and the chain continue back to us to give to other people. Sharing does make the world a better place because it makes people feel better that you care enough to give them at least something they want instead of not spending a dime for some idealistic concept that it is a great evil to be nice to some for once. How can you say Christmas is so horrible now when almost everyone in the entire world, for one day, shows how much they care and share the joy even if they aren't Christian.

[Alakhriveion]

What you seem to be forgetting is that there are no needs, there are only wants.

That's ridiculous. I want a PS2, I need food. I'm not getting one of them. That's OK.

Sharing does make the world a better place because it makes people feel better

It does improve the world, but not because of that. I'm really more concerned with everyone getting fed than some people being happy.

it makes people feel better that you care enough to give them at least something they want instead of not spending a dime for some idealistic concept that it is a great evil to be nice to some for once.

I'm FOR sharing. That's why I'm suggesting we all take a step back from the corporate teat.

How can you say Christmas is so horrible now when almost everyone in the entire world, for one day, shows how much they care and share the joy even if they aren't Christian.

"Most people" don't celebrate it. Most people in the United Staes do, but that's different.

[Serra]

You don't need food, you want food just because you want to live, obviously you haven't made it quite that far in your studies so far. Christmas is the most celebrated holiday in the world and celebrated by most people like in Japan, Britain, America, France, Canada, Mexico, Germany, Scandanavia, and many other countries which equals more than half the world in the end. You aren't FOR sharing because you said that we should get rid of Santa who shares with the kids and get rid of material items which includes food, textbooks, and anything else you buy. This is ridiculous, give me one positive thing that will come out of getting rid of Santa, just one.

[Alakhriveion]

You aren't FOR sharing because you said that we should get rid of Santa who shares with the kids and get rid of material items which includes food, textbooks, and anything else you buy. This is ridiculous, give me one positive thing that will come out of getting rid of Santa, just one.

We could become less dependant on out corporate overlords- in the long-term, we COULD escape Babylon and Captivity.*

You don't need food, you want food just because you want to live, obviously you haven't made it quite that far in your studies so far.

What do you mean? Be more clear.

Christmas is the most celebrated holiday in the world and celebrated by most people like in Japan, Britain, America, France, Canada, Mexico, Germany, Scandanavia, and many other countries which equals more than half the world in the end.

No, it doesn't. Asia alone, which has a very small Christain population, is half the world, and the remainder is as Muslim as it is Christain.


*Analogy, if you didn't get that.

[arunma]

You don't need food, you want food just because you want to live, obviously you haven't made it quite that far in your studies so far.

Actually Alak is a pretty smart fifteen year old. But anyway, you're splitting hairs now. Food is a need, and almost anybody would define it as such. If you say that you want to live, then you've effectively negated the definition of the word "need." Redefining words isn't allowed.

[Alakhriveion]

Food is a need, and almost anybody would define it as such. If you say that you want to live, then you've effectively negated the definition of the word "need." Redefining words isn't allowed.

Need, Oxford English Dictionary, Consise Fifth Edition, Volume Two: A condition of lacking or requiring some Necessary thing, either physically or (now) psycologically.

Actually Alak is a pretty smart fifteen year old.

Hwo do I take that?

[Serra]

You wand food because you want to live, it really is not that complicated if you try to think about it. A need is nothing more than a really strong want that people use too often as a way out of giving meaningful things to someone. I am 15 as well and know enough about economics to understand that. Yes, I go down to Burger King because I 'need' food, no, I go there to get food because I want it. I could just as easily not have any food and be perfectly fine the rest of my life. The biggest problem I see with Christmas is those people that go around complaining about how horrible Christmas is because everyone is getting things as they sit comfortably in their own life. Those people that condemn everyone because they take joy in recieving things from people. There are more important things to get rid of then Santa Claus who doesn't even exist.

[Serra]

Oh yes, before I forget, Japan and Russia are part of Asia and both celebrate Christmas and make up a very large chunk of Asia just so you are aware.

[arunma]

Hwo do I take that?

It's supposed to be favorable. You are fifteen, right?

[Alakhriveion]

It's supposed to be favorable.  You are fifteen, right?

Yep.

You wand food because you want to live, it really is not that complicated if you try to think about it. A need is nothing more than a really strong want that people use too often as a way out of giving meaningful things to someone. I am 15 as well and know enough about economics to understand that.

No, it's really very different, which is why we have different words for it, and economics has nothing to do with it.

The biggest problem I see with Christmas is those people that go around complaining about how horrible Christmas is because everyone is getting things as they sit comfortably in their own life.

I think you're still missing the point, read our posts again.

Those people that condemn everyone because they take joy in recieving things from people.

See above.

There are more important things to get rid of then Santa Claus who doesn't even exist.

Santa Claus is a symbol of commercialism.

[Serra]

You guys seem to sorta skip over the really good points and just attack the weak ones... Why don't you go after the biggest false idol like the Bible instead of Santa Claus. And your little idea is not really all that positive because if you get rid of corporations the entire economy will be crushed and everyone will be poor and on the streets.

You are missing the entire point here, you are trying to destroy something that gives people joy without any positive outcomes from it. At what cost will it come to give up Santa Claus, will anyone even give a look a Christmas anymore. Is that what you would like instead? Then they won't learn a single thing about what God truly gave to us over that time, but apparently having no presents be selfishly given around is more important to you than that.

[Alakhriveion]

And your little idea is not really all that positive because if you get rid of corporations the entire economy will be crushed and everyone will be poor and on the streets.

Well, my idea includes the use of an alternative system.

At what cost will it come to give up Santa Claus, will anyone even give a look a Christmas anymore. Is that what you would like instead? Then they won't learn a single thing about what God truly gave to us over that time, but apparently having no presents be selfishly given around is more important to you than that.

Well, that doesn't really bother me so much.

[arunma]

Why don't you go after the biggest false idol like the Bible instead of Santa Claus.

Try saying that again.

But this time, explain yourself. And please don't tell me you're a Christian, or I'm going to lecture you about heresy.

[Oberon Storm]

So if it's the thought that counts, why bother with the money, and the stuff?

You don't. I have never had the means to get my mother anything for Christmas. Every year all I do is give her a big hug and tell her I love her (yes I'm a momma's boy). That's all she needs. The money and stuff is a "because I could" thing. This year I just might be able to get her something. And it is probably be something as small as blinds for our kitchen. And that because I know how much she wants our home to look nicer. It is a more than 30 year old trailer. I think it's about done.

[Alakhriveion]

You don't. I have never had the means to get my mother anything for Christmas. Every year all I do is give her a big hug and tell her I love her (yes I'm a momma's boy). That's all she needs. The money and stuff is a "because I could" thing. This year I just might be able to get her something. And it is probably be something as small as blinds for our kitchen. And that because I know how much she wants our home to look nicer. It is a more than 30 year old trailer. I think it's about done.

If the first two sentances be true, then you're not into the "BUY MORE" mentality, and you don't count (And I mean that in a nice way).

[Alakhriveion]

One other thing:

FREE JOLLY JENKINS!

[Serra]

Oh, you don't get it, do you? There are more people I see around the Christian faith worshipping what the Bible says and doing whatever it tells you to do. This means that people are worshipping the Bible more than God himself making the Bible a much more powerful false idol then some guy that brings joy to kids. Economics has everything to do with Christmas as well as religion because the church would make even less money if Christmas was not the way it were right now and it would collapse. But if you want to escape economics then you might as well sell all of your possesions and go live out in the woods somewhere naked because that is as far as you are going to get without it. And I am a Christian and by calling it heresy when I say the Bible is an idol further proves my point. Do you think that just because you read the Bible a few times you have the right to condemn whoever you please? The leaders of the church don't memorize the Bible front to back because Christianity is supposed to be left to your interpertation so there is no set way to go about things. But the one most important thing is to accept everyone into the faith and your comment about all non-Christians should not be allowed to celebrate Christmas goes directly against that.

[Alakhriveion]

But if you want to escape economics then you might as well sell all of your possesions and go live out in the woods somewhere naked because that is as far as you are going to get without it.

That's closer to the Communitarian Movement of the 1840's, which was an idealist form of sacred socialism. Of course, the model is completely nonfunctioning. Read up on the Northampton Association.

But the one most important thing is to accept everyone into the faith and your comment about all non-Christians should not be allowed to celebrate Christmas goes directly against that.

I know this isn't my fight, but I have to: Celebrating Christmas without being a Christain dilutes your spirituality without gaining converts, so it works to the opposite effect.

[Serra]

It doesn't dilute anything, more people come to the Christmas service than any other time of the year and it does gain more converts than banning other people from celebrating because then you completely close the door. And a country cannot function without economics, even civilizations have economics. Socialism is a type of economy like capitalism and communism.

[Alakhriveion]

And a country cannot function without economics, even civilizations have economics. Socialism is a type of economy like capitalism and communism.

What exactly are you responding to?

[Serra]

Your idea that there is a way to go without economics and people wanting things in this world.

[Alakhriveion]

I never said that, I suggested an alternative to the system we use now. You might be refering to when I said economics was irrelevant to the difference between "need" and "want."

[Serra]

It is not irrelevent because it explains that there are really no such thing as needs in the world even if it keeps you alive. If you want to live you want the things to keep you alive just like if you want to succeed then you want a job to do so. If you 'need' food than that would mean that you 'need' money to buy it which means you 'need' people to give you that money or food so you can recieve it which means you 'need' people to give you things just like during Christmas but here they do it out of the goodness of their hearts instead of charging you for it.