818 replies to this topic

[Duke Serkol]

Yet the Zelda series is sold to be commercially successful, and Ganon's breaking of the fourth wall is especially awkward for the series.

Human beings are capable of mistakes.
It is possible for a work of fiction to be intentionally OR unintentionally implausible.
But for the records, that's still a matter of opinion: I don't think the plot of AST is any more implausible than that of other games in the series.
Like when in TP Zelda disappears after giving her power to Midna, then she shows up as a soulless body in the throne room. Is that plausible?

But, going by the rest the series, he should have been incapable of even setting things up.

And going with the rest of the series it's hard to understand how Ganondorf gets the Triforce of Power in TP, not to mention why it disappears rather than be left behind when he dies at the end.
Nonetheless, these are facts presented in the game.

I'm talking about how things were when AST was created. I'm aware of the later games.

Ah... now I understand where you're coming from with this! What you mean is that with the background Ganondorf had back then, the plot of AST would have made little sense because without OoT we did not have any indication that Ganondorf was always more than a common thief.
Well that might be a valid argument, but there's something you probably are not aware of. AST was broadcasted for the first time in 1997, only one year before OoT was released.
OoT was already far along in its development at the time and the programmers were not shy of including a reference or two to the upcoming game.
At the entrance of the Lost Woods, you can find a signpost that warns to be careful not to become a Lost Child. This would have made no sense until OoT was released one year later. Kind of like viral marketing, if you would.

[Nerushi]

For what it's worth, LoZ's Ganon was actually named Ganon; it wasn't a nickname for Ganondorf.

That is nearly as kooky as this thread. While at the time his name surely wasn't a nickname for anything, Ganon will always be derived from Ganondorf. We learn this because of game such as ALTTP/OoT/FSA etc. There is no need to omit the prequels just so you can prove a point about a game through a standalone perspective.

I meant that word of the Triforce (or rather, what it could do) made him invade. He didn't possess an already existing knowledge of the Triforce and he didn't care about Hyrule.

The game isn't extensive enough for you to state such a conclusion as a fact.

And they say that he invaded Hyrule in the same sentence. They also specified that he was a demon thief renowned for his ruthlessness, whereas ALttP Ganon was only known as a thief (at best an evil one). The evil part wasn't even mentioned in the game; the maidens merely called him Ganondorf the thief.

At best he was from a evil theif tribe, with the word evil having devilish connotation. And the game do specify Ganons evil wish, which is what cauased the mess in ALTTP. Also, the maidens were trying to downplay Ganondorf as a mere thief, although ultimately they did recongize him as a maou, which they're likely to do in the future as well, regardless if he has the Triforce or not. He didn't even possess the Triforce in ALTTP. All thats ever stated that his wish on it ever did was that it created the Dark World. Its not like ALTTP Link gained powers just cause he touched the triforce, or even better the King in WW. Just one wish.

Regarding his victory, the gang was killing itself at the same time, not focusing on Ganon. Even if he was the strongest, fastest, etc. among them, the manual and game still make it easily plausible for him to have been a regular guy.

An evil regular guy then, lol.

Again, he was a king in OoT, and a Gossip Stone even said that the Gerudo practically worshipped him as a god.

In this case, it doesn't really matter what he is, but what he is known for. And somewhat ironically he is being referred to as an thief as well, although I am not sure what OoT Ganondorf ever stole, or the Gerudo for that matter. It shows that just about anyone can be referred to it regardless of what powers they may have. Who knows, it might just have been a way for them to insult him/them.

Edited by Nerushi, 01 May 2010 - 12:33 PM.

[Average Gamer]

Like when in TP Zelda disappears after giving her power to Midna, then she shows up as a soulless body in the throne room. Is that plausible?

Simple teleportation could serve to explain that, so it's plausible.

And going with the rest of the series it's hard to understand how Ganondorf gets the Triforce of Power in TP,

OoT sets it up with the final scene.

not to mention why it disappears rather than be left behind when he dies at the end.

Well, nobody tried to claim it, and the only game in which a Triforce piece was left where its owner died was in LoZ, when they were considered physical artifacts.

Ah... now I understand where you're coming from with this! What you mean is that with the background Ganondorf had back then, the plot of AST would have made little sense because without OoT we did not have any indication that Ganondorf was always more than a common thief.

Yes, that's what I've been trying to say. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Well that might be a valid argument, but there's something you probably are not aware of. AST was broadcasted for the first time in 1997, only one year before OoT was released.
OoT was already far along in its development at the time and the programmers were not shy of including a reference or two to the upcoming game.

But nobody would have known what they meant, and AST still doesn't say that Ganon had any innate powers. The rest of the series also doesn't suggest that Ganon is capable of anything while dead.

While at the time his name surely wasn't a nickname for anything, Ganon will always be derived from Ganondorf. We learn this because of game such as ALTTP/OoT/FSA etc.

But LoZ Ganon seems to have always been a demon and there's no sign of a resurrection of sorts. He kind of comes out of nowhere, which is why I even bothered to mention that. Reincarnation in the Zelda series doesn't necessarily have to bring a person back exactly like they previously were. Just look at Kaepora Gaebora; he was a sage yet he came back as an owl.

The game isn't extensive enough for you to state such a conclusion as a fact.

The manual states that the Triforce was told about for generations in the kingdom of Hyrule, and as the kingdom was supposedly small, it seems like Ganon went out of his way to see if the Triforce stories were true.

At best he was from a evil theif tribe, with the word evil having devilish connotation. And the game do specify Ganons evil wish, which is what cauased the mess in ALTTP.

However, being evil doesn't mean that he was powerful. Honestly, most thieves are considered evil. At best he was particularly heartless, but that says nothing about his strength.

Also, the maidens were trying to downplay Ganondorf as a mere thief, although ultimately they did recongize him as a maou, which they're likely to do in the future as well, regardless if he has the Triforce or not.

But it appears that he only became a Maou because of the Triforce.

He didn't even possess the Triforce in ALTTP. All thats ever stated that his wish on it ever did was that it created the Dark World.

The Triforce considered Ganon to be its master, and the pieces are revealed to have some powers of their own in LoZ, OoT, etc. Since Ganon owns the entire thing, he'd arguably be enhanced by it if he so chooses.

Its not like ALTTP Link gained powers just cause he touched the triforce, or even better the King in WW.

Well, we don't really see enough of ALttP Link to know if he was powered up by the Triforce, and he may have also quit being its master by LA. As for Daphnes, he was capable of standing underneath the falling ocean in TWW, and he could arguably control the destruction, as the ring of water is held off until he finishes his last discussion with the children.

In this case, it doesn't really matter what he is, but what he is known for. And somewhat ironically he is being referred to as an thief as well, although I am not sure what OoT Ganondorf ever stole, or the Gerudo for that matter.

He's known as a king to the Gerudo, Hylians, and Zora, and the Gerudo also view him as a god. Even though he is also called a thief, he's not a mere gang leader; he's the king of thieves. As for what he and the Gerudo steal, it's suggested that, in addition to supplies, they've taken various treasures from across the land and hidden them in the Spirit Temple.

Edited by Average Gamer, 02 May 2010 - 04:12 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

Simple teleportation could serve to explain that, so it's plausible.

*Facepalm*
So let me get this straight... Zelda gives her power to Midna, she disappears into thin air, the game appears to imply that she died, but in reality she was teleported elsewhere? Just at that moment without any actual explanation as to how and why just then?
Right, perfectly plausible.

OoT sets it up with the final scene.

And that's why people on this and other boards spent months arguing about it and never (to my recollection) managed to reach a general consensus, isn't it?

Well, nobody tried to claim it, and the only game in which a Triforce piece was left where its owner died was in LoZ, when they were considered physical artifacts.

Oh, so NOW previous games don't matter? But they do when it comes to determining whether Ganondorf had any powers of his own or not? (Nevermind that none of them actually SAY that he didn't)
And how would anyone try to claim it before Ganondorf was even dead?

But nobody would have known what they meant

Yes. No one could really know what they meant when reading that "Careful not to become a lost child" signpost either, nonetheless they put it in the game.
Zelda fans would figure it out one year later.

AST still doesn't say that Ganon had any innate powers.

It does by saying he could do things after he was killed and had the Triforce stolen from him.
What do you require, Zelda to say "Oh BTW, all that stuff Ganon's malicious essence has been doing, he could do that because he had powers of his own. Yeah this was definitely implied by the fact that he did do those things in the first place, but I suppose I'd better state it clear as day since some people apparently need that."

The rest of the series also doesn't suggest that Ganon is capable of anything while dead.

Well he DOES in this one.
You do realize the only reason this conversation is taking place is because this game was broadcasted in Japan alone rather than sold worldwide in a cart?

I've said it once and I'll say it again: it's fine if you don't want to consider the BS Zelda games as canon, but there really is no reason to say that it's plot is implausible, nonsensical or messed up.
Heck, even the infamous baseball cap isn't much of a reason if you consider that the Bombers gang in Majora's Mask had similar hats (and they didn't even come from a modern world like ours).

At least I hope you wouldn't make this sort of argument for an event in a "regular game" not to be considered by theorists because "it's something that was not shown as a viable course of events in previous games".
That would be like saying "We should disregard that in OoT the Triforce splits when touched with an unbalanced heart, because ALttP implies Ganon got the whole thing upon touching it" or "We should disregard that in OoT people with a Triforce part residing within tham get crests on their hands, because previous games never showed that."

[Average Gamer]

in major rush. Will certainly edit later.

So let me get this straight... Zelda gives her power to Midna, she disappears into thin air, the game appears to imply that she died, but in reality she was teleported elsewhere? Just at that moment without any actual explanation as to how and why just then?

I meant that Ganondorf teleported Zelda's dead body to where he was, not that she never died.

And that's why people on this and other boards spent months arguing about it and never (to my recollection) managed to reach a general consensus, isn't it?

Despite the arguments on places like ZU, the ToC is clearly shown on Link's hand in OoT's ending, meaning that the Triforce was no longer whole on that timeline. Thus OoT set up for TP.

Oh, so NOW previous games don't matter?

Duke, that's not what I said. I said that, because the ToP was a physical artifact in LoZ and apparently not one with Ganon, it dropped in the spot where he died.

But they do when it comes to determining whether Ganondorf had any powers of his own or not?

Again, different incarnations of Ganon.

And how would anyone try to claim it before Ganondorf was even dead?

See TWW.

Yes. No one could really know what they meant when reading that "Careful not to become a lost child" signpost either, nonetheless they put it in the game.

That could have at least been excused as a general warning sign though.

It does by saying he could do things after he was killed and had the Triforce stolen from him.

We're trying to determine if that's supported by the series; using it to prove itself isn't a good idea. Also, as I said, the rest of the games show that Ganon can't do anything while dead, regardless of how much innate power he has.

What do you require

Someone actually saying that he was a magical thief, first accessed the Sacred Realm with his dark powers, etc. An actual statement that shows he was more than a regular guy before claiming the Triforce.

Well he DOES in this one.

Again, this is the instance in question; we're trying to see if it's supported rather than making it proof of itself. Also, if Ganon was capable of doing things while dead, the relief characters have upon his death throughout the series would make no sense.

You do realize the only reason this conversation is taking place is because this game was broadcasted in Japan alone rather than sold worldwide in a cart?

AST featured Mary Sue/Gary Stu on a magical journey across the fourth wall that lasted for roughly a month on a promotional broadcast. There are more reasons than AST simply being exclusive to Japan.

Heck, even the infamous baseball cap isn't much of a reason if you consider that the Bombers gang in Majora's Mask had similar hats (and they didn't even come from a modern world like ours).

Those were bandanas, not baseball caps.

Edited by Average Gamer, 02 May 2010 - 07:53 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

I meant that Ganondorf teleported Zelda's dead body to where he was, not that she never died.

Yeah but why does he wait until then? In a previous game, OoT, he steals her away as soon as she shows herself. By the logic you've been using against Ganon's actions in AST, this course of events (Ganondorf waiting to teleoprt her away after she's helped Link and Midna) is implausible.

Despite the arguments on places like ZU, the ToC is clearly shown on Link's hand in OoT's ending, meaning that the Triforce was no longer whole on that timeline.

Oh right, let's just forget the endless debates that never reached a consensus. You have now pointed out the unquestionable truth of how Ganondorf obtained the ToP in TP, the most controversial event in the whole game. I stand enlightened.

Duke, that's not what I said. I said that, because the ToP was a physical artifact in LoZ and apparently not one with Ganon, it dropped in the spot where he died.

This is all just speculation really. We can't know if the Triforce was physical throughout LoZ since we can't see Ganon's hand in detail with 8 bits graphics. And even if it was, we've never been told that the non-physical Triforce instantly vanishes if its bearer is killed. That is, unless TP is telling us as much, but I know Ganondorf seemed hellbent on killing Link in OoT, and that was ultimately to recover his Triforce part.

Again, different incarnations of Ganon.

Again, speculation. I don't believe LoZ Ganon to be different from ALttP Ganon (resurrected, naturally), and neither of us can prove the other wrong on that.

And how would anyone try to claim it before Ganondorf was even dead?

See TWW.

So you're saying that after stabbing him, Link should have picked Ganondorf up by the hand in order for the Triforce to appear?

That could have at least been excused as a general warning sign though.

Possibly, yes, but the fact remains that the full extent of its meaning wasn't revealed until later.

It does by saying he could do things after he was killed and had the Triforce stolen from him.

We're trying to determine if that's supported by the series; using it to prove itself isn't a good idea.

Maybe you are but I'm not. I'm not interested in validating one installation in the series by referencing another one.
How do we determine if something happens in this series? By seeing if it happens in one of the games. AST is one of the games, and stuff happens in it. It doesn't have to happen in other games, because if everything that happened in a game already happened in the previous ones there would be no story development.
In other words, if this ability Ganon demonstrates in AST was demonstrated in other games, and the same applied to the other aspects of the plot (such as having tablets that can be used to unlock seals) AST wouldn't contribute anything to timeline theorizing and would be, in that sense, completely useless.

What do you require

Someone actually saying that he was a magical thief, first accessed the Sacred Realm with his dark powers, etc. An actual statement that shows he was more than a regular guy before claiming the Triforce.

OoT works for me

if Ganon was capable of doing things while dead, the relief characters have upon his death throughout the series would make no sense.

I imagine that dying does make him significantly less of a threat. Besides, we do not know if he would be able to do this in every instance when he's died in the series. Like I said, the Hero of Light may be a unique individual. Or there could be some other reason, such as something he's learned during all the centuries he's been sealed in the Dark World, with nothing to do but attempting to figure a way out of his dimensional prison.
As I said previously, not everything in the games is explained, that's why we have storyline debates.

AST featured Mary Sue/Gary Stu on a magical journey across the fourth wall that lasted for roughly a month on a promotional broadcast. There are more reasons than AST simply being exclusive to Japan.

Seriously, how many times do I have to say this?
It is fine by me if you don't want to consider AST canon.
I'm only defending the validity of the game's plot in itself (i.e. that it is not "a confused mess" as some described it, but rather a straightforward simple story)
...and what do you mean by "promotional" anyway?

Those were bandanas, not baseball caps.

Oh, you're right, I was mistaken.
Well we got some pretty modern hats now anyways

...not that it really matters since that doesn't seem to be what bothers you about AST's plot.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 03 May 2010 - 11:20 AM.

[SOAP]

Yeah I kinda got inspired by the crimsom alchemist.

[Nerushi]

But LoZ Ganon seems to have always been a demon and there's no sign of a resurrection of sorts. He kind of comes out of nowhere, which is why I even bothered to mention that. Reincarnation in the Zelda series doesn't necessarily have to bring a person back exactly like they previously were. Just look at Kaepora Gaebora; he was a sage yet he came back as an owl.

It is not that LoZ Ganon comes out of nowhere, its just that the story wasn't as developed back then as now. Even then, it makes even less sense to assume that LoZ Ganon always was a demon or that he is a reincarnation. Particulary when Ganons form in LoZ doesn't differ all that much from his form in ALTTP which makes this kinda redundant. I don't see how this arguement can go anywhere when you're just simply cutting out applied backstories and elements introduced in later games.

The manual states that the Triforce was told about for generations in the kingdom of Hyrule, and as the kingdom was supposedly small, it seems like Ganon went out of his way to see if the Triforce stories were true.

One could equally argue that the only reason he went out of his way was because he knew the rumors were no rumors.

However, being evil doesn't mean that he was powerful. Honestly, most thieves are considered evil. At best he was particularly heartless, but that says nothing about his strength.

The thing is that this does not preclude the possibility Ganondorf actually having powers. Ganondorfs transformation to a pig is never implied anywhere in ALTTP, which makes it all the more likely that Ganondorf already was in that state before he entered the Sacred Realm, as well as touching the Triforce. An particulary relevant note for those who consider FSA Ganon to be ALTTP Ganon.

But it appears that he only became a Maou because of the Triforce.

So anyone who has the Triforce becomes a Maou? No, Ganondorf was acknowlegded as one because of his evil which he was able to spread.

The Triforce considered Ganon to be its master, and thepieces are revealed to have some powers of their own in LoZ, OoT, etc. Since Ganon owns the entire thing, he'd arguably be enhanced by it if he so chooses.

Regardless of what the Triforce consider, it does state Ganons single wish which transformed the the Sacred Realm into the World of Darkness and that about it. You're delving into the unimplied.
I have no doubt Ganondorf became more powerful after obtaining the Triforce. However, just like in OoT, this does not preclude the possibility of him already having power. As shown, being called a thief in the Zelda series has many context, and at the time of ALTTP it certainly was an undeveloped one. I don't know what you make of FSA, but if that one is indeed the same one as in ALTTP then this whole thief deal becomes redundant as well.

Well, we don't really see enough of ALttP Link to know if he was powered up by the Triforce, and he may have also quit being its master by LA. As for Daphnes, he was capable of standing underneath the falling ocean in TWW, and he could arguably control the destruction, as the ring of water is held off until he finishes his last discussion with the children.

However, we do know that a complete Triforce gives wishes, not random powers so there is no reason to make guesses. Apparently, Ganon was just keeping the Triforce hidden in another room until his wish had been realized.

He's known as a king to the Gerudo, Hylians, and Zora, and the Gerudo also view him as a god. Even though he is also called a thief, he's not a mere gang leader; he's the king of thieves. As for what he and the Gerudo steal, it's suggested that, in addition to supplies, they've taken various treasures from across the land and hidden them in the Spirit Temple.

But those races don't even mention Ganondorf in TP, and according to the Sages he is an mere gang leader ( with power) who was subdued. They don't call him a king, and I doubt they would even want to acknowlegde him as such, regardless of who is king over.

Edited by Nerushi, 03 May 2010 - 11:23 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

The thing is that this does not preclude the possibility Ganondorf actually having powers. Ganondorfs transformation to a pig is never implied anywhere in ALTTP, which makes it all the more likely that Ganondorf already was in that state before he entered the Sacred Realm, as well as touching the Triforce. An particulary relevant note for those who consider FSA Ganon to be ALTTP Ganon.

Well, actually, we can infer it because every other creature in the Sacred Realm transformed, so why not LTTP Ganon? He's certainly described as humanoid before he seizes it.

So anyone who has the Triforce becomes a Maou? No, Ganondorf was acknowlegded as one because of his evil which he was able to spread.

Well, his great evil AND because he had tremendous power that was only possible because of the Triforce. Y'know.

Nice strawman argument though.

[SOAP]

Yeah I kinda got inspired by the crimsom alchemist.

Wait, what happened to the post I was replying too?

[Nerushi]

Well, actually, we can infer it because every other creature in the Sacred Realm transformed, so why not LTTP Ganon? He's certainly described as humanoid before he seizes it.

It was most likely Ganondorfs wish on the Triforce, which created the dark world, that caused the transformations in the first place. It makes sense considering that it was intially his wish that transformed the the Sacred Realm. Either way MPS, you do realize that what you're arguing makes it even less likely for FSA to precede ALTTP?

Well, his great evil AND because he had tremendous power that was only possible because of the Triforce. Y'know.

Nice strawman argument though.

Duh. However, a Triforce is not neccesary to stay a maou as apparently shown by LoZ, OoX, and FSA. And what all those games have in common is that they're all with their Ganon related to ALTTP. A straw argument that Ganon would not have any powers either after or before ALTTP somehow destroys all of these connections. And for what? A preference for a pretty much unimplied reincarnation ( even whn resurrection is the running theme for Ganondorf in general ) and a unknown way for LoZ Ganon to gain power and become a maou that is separate from ALTTP Ganon.
That is pretty insane when you consider that ALTTP Ganon never even possesed the Triforce in the first place, so it having a new master would probably not do a damn thing in regard to his power, which, apparently he had spent some time building up in the DW. Yet I hear some crummy reasoning that the Triforce was Ganondorf constant source of power.
What I am saying is, if ALTTP Ganon were to be revived, he would probably most likely look an be just like he is in LoZ and OoX.

[ganonlord6000]

Well, actually, we can infer it because every other creature in the Sacred Realm transformed, so why not LTTP Ganon? He's certainly described as humanoid before he seizes it.

It was most likely Ganondorfs wish on the Triforce, which created the dark world, that caused the transformations in the first place. It makes sense considering that it was intially his wish that transformed the the Sacred Realm. Either way MPS, you do realize that what you're arguing makes it even less likely for FSA to precede ALTTP?

Well, his great evil AND because he had tremendous power that was only possible because of the Triforce. Y'know.

Nice strawman argument though.

Duh. However, a Triforce is not neccesary to stay a maou as apparently shown by LoZ, OoX, and FSA. And what all those games have in common is that they're all with their Ganon related to ALTTP. A straw argument that Ganon would not have any powers either after or before ALTTP somehow destroys all of these connections. And for what? A preference for a pretty much unimplied reincarnation ( even whn resurrection is the running theme for Ganondorf in general ) and a unknown way for LoZ Ganon to gain power and become a maou that is separate from ALTTP Ganon.
That is pretty insane when you consider that ALTTP Ganon never even possesed the Triforce in the first place, so it having a new master would probably not do a damn thing in regard to his power, which, apparently he had spent some time building up in the DW. Yet I hear some crummy reasoning that the Triforce was Ganondorf constant source of power.
What I am saying is, if ALTTP Ganon were to be revived, he would probably most likely look an be just like he is in LoZ and OoX.

The triforce's effects probably didn't effect ALTTP's Ganon till he touch the triforce. He then kept it till Link killed him. And the only connection all of those Ganons share is the trident. That might be what connects them.

[Average Gamer]

The site's glitching, so I have to paste my responses to Nerushi back in. Also, I'm using a number system since the quotes are maxing out.

Yeah but why does he wait until then?

In a previous game, OoT, he steals her away as soon as she shows herself.

1. He seems to have wanted her body in TP, whether to simply psyche Link and Midna out or to further sustain the illusion of Hyrule Castle not being conquered. Seeing as how Zelda killed herself to save Midna, it'd be an opportune moment to snatch her body.

2. Well, she's technically Ganondorf's prisoner already.

You have now pointed out the unquestionable truth of how Ganondorf obtained the ToP in TP, the most controversial event in the whole game. I stand enlightened.

I understand how that can come across as conceited, but the ToC was blatantly shown on Link's hand in OoT's ending and there was little else the mark could have meant in the context of the game.

1. This is all just speculation really. We can't know if the Triforce was physical throughout LoZ since we can't see Ganon's hand in detail with 8 bits graphics.

2. And even if it was, we've never been told that the non-physical Triforce instantly vanishes if its bearer is killed.

1. Link and Zelda blatantly hold the Triforce pieces over their heads in the ending.

2. True, but Ganondorf seems to take precautions to not kill the bearers if it can be helped in some games.

but I know Ganondorf seemed hellbent on killing Link in OoT, and that was ultimately to recover his Triforce part.

Well, in Ganondorf's defense, he was already in control of the Sacred Realm at that point, so if the ToC went back there he could easily reclaim it.

Again, speculation. I don't believe LoZ Ganon to be different from ALttP Ganon (resurrected, naturally), and neither of us can prove the other wrong on that.

However, LoZ doesn't imply any sort of resurrection, and Ganon does not seem to have any prior associations with Hyrule. We know that Ganon has apparently reincarnated before (FSA) and the only two known resurrection rituals in the series failed, so I don't think it's implausible for LoZ Ganon to simply be reincarnated. I guess it's your opinion though.

So you're saying that after stabbing him, Link should have picked Ganondorf up by the hand in order for the Triforce to appear?

Not that. TWW shows us that a Triforce bearer can will the other pieces to appear if their owners have been defeated.

Possibly, yes, but the fact remains that the full extent of its meaning wasn't revealed until later.

It at least could have had a plausible reason in AST though.

Maybe you are but I'm not. I'm not interested in validating one installation in the series by referencing another one.
How do we determine if something happens in this series? By seeing if it happens in one of the games. AST is one of the games, and stuff happens in it.

However, AST's plausibility within the series and canon status is what is being discussed here. That's why we're looking at the other games to see if AST makes sense rather than using AST to prove itself.

OoT works for me

That came out later and, as one of many contradictions, established Ganondorf's reputation as a god, king, and sorcerer.

I imagine that dying does make him significantly less of a threat.

Yet he still threatens the kingdom and (if I'm not mistaken) gathers/summons monsters in AST, so the kingdom's still in danger. With that in mind, total relief in response to Ganon's deaths doesn't seem to be sensible.

Like I said, the Hero of Light may be a unique individual. Or there could be some other reason, such as something he's learned during all the centuries he's been sealed in the Dark World, with nothing to do but attempting to figure a way out of his dimensional prison.

But, as established by the rest of the series, Ganon should be unable to do anything while dead, so the hero's unique abilities wouldn't necessarily matter. Being sealed doesn't appear to be the same as being dead either.

1. It is fine by me if you don't want to consider AST canon.
I'm only defending the validity of the game's plot in itself (i.e. that it is not "a confused mess" as some described it, but rather a straightforward simple story)

2. ...and what do you mean by "promotional" anyway?

1. But things such as the apparent breaking of the fourth wall and the Hero/ine of Light's inexplicable powers are some of the things that complicate the story. However, I do agree that, at its roots, AST is a "kid gets sucked into world, fights demon and goes home," story.

2. It was intended to show off what Satellite View (whatever is was) could do.

Oh, you're right, I was mistaken.
Well we got some pretty modern hats now anyways

The hats of the ST guards may be relatively modern, but they still don't come close to the blatant baseball cap of AST.

It is not that LoZ Ganon comes out of nowhere

LoZ Ganon was portrayed as nothing more than a demonic warlord who invaded a little kingdom due to stories about magical artifacts. In both the games and manuals of LoZ and AoL, Ganon is given no history other than being a random, invading Maou. In that sense, he comes out of nowhere.

1. Even then, it makes even less sense to assume that LoZ Ganon always was a demon or that he is a reincarnation.

2. Particulary when Ganons form in LoZ doesn't differ all that much from his form in ALTTP.

1. He's already a Maou and in control of a Makai when LoZ begins, and there's no mention of a resurrection or the breaking of a seal.

2. That doesn't mean much, as TWW shows that "blue" Ganon is nothing more than the result of the art style and the Links and Zeldas look the same despite being separate figures.

One could equally argue that the only reason he went out of his way was because he knew the rumors were no rumors.

However, the Japanese manual states that he only took a portion of his army, so he doesn't seem to have considered the Triforce scenario the end-all-be-all of his plans.

1. The thing is that this does not preclude the possibility Ganondorf actually having powers.

2. Ganondorfs transformation to a pig is never implied anywhere in ALTTP,

1. Other things do go against the idea though.

2. The Dark World transforms people into monsters and Ganon is in a beastly form like everyone else. Quotes from the Japanese version of ALttP also suggest that the transformation aspect is exclusive to the Dark World.

1. So anyone who has the Triforce becomes a Maou?

2. No, Ganondorf was acknowlegded as one because of his evil which he was able to spread.

1. No, but ALttP Ganon appears to have used its power to become a Maou.

2. He was only able to create and spread such evil thanks to the Triforce.

1. Regardless of what the Triforce consider, it does state Ganons single wish which transformed the the Sacred Realm into the World of Darkness and that about it.

2. However, we do know that a complete Triforce gives wishes, not random powers

1. Being empowered by the pieces doesn't necessarily have to be tied to the wish, and we already know that the pieces can bestow power aside from a wish.

2. But the complete Triforce considers the person who wished on it to be its master, and the pieces are not limited to granting wishes.

For what it's worth, the pieces seem to have floated around separately until Link was encouraged to make his wish in ALttP's ending.

But those races don't even mention Ganondorf in TP, and according to the Sages he is an mere gang leader ( with power) who was subdued.

Because, as far as the people know, he's been dead for a hundred years and is irrelevant.

The Sages specify that he was a demon thief renowned for his ruthlessness and later state that he was able to invade the kingdom of Hyrule. That's not the same as calling him a mere thief or gang leader.

Edited by Average Gamer, 03 May 2010 - 06:38 PM.

[Nerushi]

LoZ Ganon was portrayed as nothing more than a demonic warlord who invaded a little kingdom due to stories about magical artifacts. In both the games and manuals of LoZ and AoL, Ganon is given no history other than being a random, invading Maou. In that sense, he comes out of nowhere.

You're going in circles because in ALTTP he is given an backstory and the manual even references that as being the birth of Ganon. I've already stated that games from the NES era weren't really that deep to begin with. All they needed was an villian. However, not connecting the dots between ALTTP-LoZ/AoL means you're just creating more inconsistencies.

1. He's already a Maou and in control of a Makai when LoZ begins, and there's no mention of a resurrection or the breaking of a seal.

ALTTP Ganon was a maou when he died, and he would certainly be one again if resurrected, which is pretty much implied seeing how LoZ and ALTTP Ganon is most certainly the same guy. And again, LoZ can't show things that weren't thought up of at the time. Yet you still go by your own unimplied ideas even when its deliberate prequel makes up for them.

2. That doesn't mean much, as TWW shows that "blue" Ganon is nothing more than the result of the art style and the Links and Zeldas look the same despite being separate figures.

Well, the problem here isn't the artstyle but you wanting to separate LoZ Ganon from ALTTP Ganon even when the ALTTP manual mentions that it was the birth of Ganon from that time. Again, reincarnation is very unlikely and is completely uneccesary given the elements that already is established in the Zelda series.

However, the Japanese manual states that he only took a portion of his army, so he doesn't seem to have considered the Triforce scenario the end-all-be-all of his plans.

Maybe cause taking your whole army with you for an all out strike is stupid to being with. With an smaller corp he could ensure that he was in control of his men and that he would be the one to get the Triforce. And, apparently the division were set aside for a special purpose, implying that Ganon weren't an idiot who would use his whole army in favor of a more efficient methods.

The Dark World transforms people into monsters and Ganon is in a beastly form like everyone else. Quotes from the Japanese version of ALttP also suggest that the transformation aspect is exclusive to the Dark World.

Again, I don't see Ganondorf transformation implied anywhere, even when he snacthed the Triforce and the Dark World was 'transformed'.

1. No, but ALttP Ganon appears to have used its power to become a Maou.
2. He was only able to create and spread such evil thanks to the Triforce.

1. And he did spend some time buliding up power in the Dark World. The Triforce having a new master would probably do little to change this.
2. So did OoT Ganon. He had power before though as well.

1. Being empowered by the pieces doesn't necessarily have to be tied to the wish, and we already know that the pieces can bestow power aside from a wish.

2. But the complete Triforce considers the person who wished on it to be its master, and the pieces are not limited to granting wishes.

1. That is only when they physically posses the pieces, and it mentions that Ganon had to spend time building up power. What is the point of his is the Triforce could just give him unlimited power (from distance) at a whim? Seriously, have you already forgotten how you so fiercly argued against the 'Triforce can't give power from distance'?

2. I wouldn't say that judging by the Triforce speech. This whole 'master' thing seem quite irrelevant. And again, you're talking about individul pieces that are physically possesed by a person. Its not like individual pieces gives wishes, and in the same manner, a complete Triforce most likely isn't a constant source of power for an individual, particulary when its not possesed.

For what it's worth, the pieces seem to have floated around separately until Link was encouraged to make his wish in ALttP's ending.

And that proves... what? The pieces were like talking to Link telling him whats going on. They only unify when they tell Link to make a wish.

"Oh, and as a premium, aside from the wishes, you'll be given a unknown, unspecified set of power! Just like Ganon that you just defeated!".

The Sages specify that he was a demon thief renowned for his ruthlessness and later state that he was able to invade the kingdom of Hyrule. That's not the same as calling him a mere thief or gang leader.

魔盗賊
魔盗族

This is the differents in Ganon description in the ALTTP manual and as TP sages describe him. The last kanji differs becaus one says foe/enemy/rebel while the other specifies a race/tribe/clan. Essentially the 'demon' part exist in both ALTTP Ganon and TP Ganons description.

Edited by Nerushi, 04 May 2010 - 05:26 AM.

[Average Gamer]

You're going in circles because in ALTTP he is given an backstory and the manual even references that as being the birth of Ganon.

However, Ganon blatantly died in ALttP's ending, and LoZ and AoL give us no reason to believe that Ganon has been resurrected. ALttP might be the beginning of his incarnation-spanning legacy.

ALTTP Ganon was a maou when he died, and he would certainly be one again if resurrected,

However, ALttP Ganon's souce of power seems to be the Triforce. Even if he was resurrected, he'd still lack the Triforce and thus be powerless.

Yet you still go by your own unimplied ideas even when its deliberate prequel makes up for them.

The prequel killed Ganon and gave us no reason to believe that he'd be resurrected later for LoZ, not to mention that his ALttP incarnation is portrayed as though he is dependent on the Triforce.

Well, the problem here isn't the artstyle but you wanting to separate LoZ Ganon from ALTTP Ganon even when the ALTTP manual mentions that it was the birth of Ganon from that time.

Again, Ganon died in ALttP with no hint or implication of resurrection, and his apparent need for the Triforce makes it unlikely that he could have been a Maou on his own.

Maybe cause taking your whole army with you for an all out strike is stupid to being with.

The Triforce is essentially an "I win" button. You'd think that he would invest everything he had toward acquiring the pieces if he knew that they truly existed.

With an smaller corp he could ensure that he was in control of his men and that he would be the one to get the Triforce.

Ganon sent his minions to bring him the ToW, so ensuring that he would get the pieces rather than some goon doesn't appear to have been much of an issue. Ganon's forces also seem to be loyal enough to attempt a resurrection in AoL.

And, apparently the division were set aside for a special purpose, implying that Ganon weren't an idiot who would use his whole army in favor of a more efficient methods.

The more men he had the easier it would be to obtain the Triforce pieces.

Again, I don't see Ganondorf transformation implied anywhere, even when he snacthed the Triforce and the Dark World was 'transformed'.

The Dark World transforms people into monsters, such as ogres and moblins. Ganon has a monstrous form reminiscent of a moblin. Logically, Ganon transformed in the Dark World.

And he did spend some time buliding up power in the Dark World. The Triforce having a new master would probably do little to change this.

He was likely gathering a military to fight for him during that time.

So did OoT Ganon. He had power before though as well.

Yet ALttP suggests that, prior to obtaining the Triforce, Ganon had no power. OoT Ganon was also capable of killing gods and infesting Dodongos' Cavern with monsters, so he may not have been totally dependent on the Triforce when it came to corrupting something.

That is only when they physically posses the pieces,

Well, he technically did.

and it mentions that Ganon had to spend time building up power. What is the point of his is the Triforce could just give him unlimited power (from distance) at a whim?

The power he was building was likely military might (soldiers, beasts, etc.)

Seriously, have you already forgotten how you so fiercly argued against the 'Triforce can't give power from distance'?

If you're referring to the TP theory of "they don't have the Triforce pieces but gain strength from them", the TP crest bearers exhibit clear signs of actually possessing a piece of the Triforce. ALttP Ganon may have also claimed an amount of power for himself instead of constantly drawing from the Triforce.

And again, you're talking about individul pieces that are physically possesed by a person.

Technically speaking though, Ganon is in control of all of the pieces.

Its not like individual pieces gives wishes

They don't need to; they just need to give Ganon power.

And that proves... what?

The Triforce pieces floating around separately could mean that they're capable of aiding Ganon, rather than being stuck in a complete wish mode.

魔盗賊
魔盗族

This is the differents in Ganon description in the ALTTP manual and as TP sages describe him. The last kanji differs becaus one says foe/enemy/rebel while the other specifies a race/tribe/clan. Essentially the 'demon' part exist in both ALTTP Ganon and TP Ganons description.

Johan and Zethar translated it as evil in ALttP though, and Ganon is never given any sort of title or description within the game itself other than thief. The fact that ALttP Ganon was limited to a mere gang also suggests that he wasn't too influential.

[Fin]

魔盗賊
魔盗族

This is the differents in Ganon description in the ALTTP manual and as TP sages describe him. The last kanji differs becaus one says foe/enemy/rebel while the other specifies a race/tribe/clan. Essentially the 'demon' part exist in both ALTTP Ganon and TP Ganons description.

Johan and Zethar translated it as evil in ALttP though, and Ganon is never given any sort of title or description within the game itself other than thief. The fact that ALttP Ganon was limited to a mere gang also suggests that he wasn't too influential.

As far as I know (could I get some confirmation or clarification here, MPS?) the character 魔 doesn't quite translate into "evil", but "evil spirit" (or "demon"). Just plain "evil" would be 邪悪 or jaaku. I've noticed that Johan and Zethar II's translation always uses the word evil for demonic references. Just a translator's quirk, I imagine.

[Duke Serkol]

I'm tired of arguing over what is, ultimately, pure speculation.
I'll just cut the chase.

Well, in Ganondorf's defense, he was already in control of the Sacred Realm at that point, so if the ToC went back there he could easily reclaim it.

TWW shows us that a Triforce bearer can will the other pieces to appear if their owners have been defeated.

Those are admittedly good points. That the latter was the case when the Triforce disappeared in TP's ending is definitely not a fact, but certainly a possibility.

Possibly, yes, but the fact remains that the full extent of its meaning wasn't revealed until later.

It at least could have had a plausible reason in AST though.

It didn't. The forest isn't even perpetually foggy as it was in ALttP before taking the Master Sword, so if anything the sign should have been there in ALttP, judging by in-game reasons, not appear only in AST. However the programmers wanted to leave some seeders for OoT.

However, AST's plausibility within the series and canon status is what is being discussed here.

Not by me >_<

I do agree that, at its roots, AST is a "kid gets sucked into world, fights demon and goes home," story.

Good.

It was intended to show off what Satellite View (whatever is was) could do.

Two years after the Satellaview became operative? I believe you're thinking of the first BS Zelda, broadcasted in 1995. AST was first broadcasted in 1997.

[MikePetersSucks]

t was most likely Ganondorfs wish on the Triforce, which created the dark world, that caused the transformations in the first place. It makes sense considering that it was intially his wish that transformed the the Sacred Realm. Either way MPS, you do realize that what you're arguing makes it even less likely for FSA to precede ALTTP?

Not necessarily. *trollface there's never a fucking emoticon for*

As for this whole mess about Ganon's power, and the Triforce, and stuff, I'm not totally sold on it, but I always did respect the idea that the Triforce isn't an "I Win" button, but gives the owner all the power, wisdom, courage, and basically necessities to actually make their wish happen; they just have to see it through themselves.

[Average Gamer]

It didn't. The forest isn't even perpetually foggy as it was in ALttP before taking the Master Sword, so if anything the sign should have been there in ALttP, judging by in-game reasons, not appear only in AST.

Were there still thieves in the forest though? Just wondering if kidnapping may have been a possibility.

Two years after the Satellaview became operative? I believe you're thinking of the first BS Zelda, broadcasted in 1995. AST was first broadcasted in 1997.

I seem to recall hearing that AST was also meant to be promotional in some way, but I'm not too certain of it. I'll look into it.

[Duke Serkol]

Were there still thieves in the forest though? Just wondering if kidnapping may have been a possibility.

No, there's none.
...guess that with the guards unbrainwashed and the fog lifted the forest suddenly stopped being such a nice place for them to be in

I seem to recall hearing that AST was also meant to be promotional in some way, but I'm not too certain of it. I'll look into it.

Are you thinking about the prizes for those that completed the game? I think most BS-X exclusive games (those with a timer) had them.

[Average Gamer]

No, there's none.

Alright. Still, there doesn't seem to be anything in AST suggesting that Ganon had innate powers.

Are you thinking about the prizes for those that completed the game? I think most BS-X exclusive games (those with a timer) had them.

I've never actually heard about the prizes before.

[Pinecove]

Timeline:
People tend not to take me seriously because I'm believe in one timeline. I do because the series is not over. Developers could easily change there mind and change something. I believe that they'll will change back into one time line.

OoA/S-TMC-FS-FSA-OC-MM-TP-WW-PH-ST-AlltP-LA-Loz-Loz2

OoA/S I just threw in there because I never played it and according to most people it's game has little relevance.

Only on ZU.....

[Person]

Timeline:
People tend not to take me seriously because I'm believe in one timeline. I do because the series is not over. Developers could easily change there mind and change something. I believe that they'll will change back into one time line.

OoA/S-TMC-FS-FSA-OC-MM-TP-WW-PH-ST-AlltP-LA-Loz-Loz2

OoA/S I just threw in there because I never played it and according to most people it's game has little relevance.

Only on ZU.....

What's the OC doing in there?

[SOAP]

Timeline:
People tend not to take me seriously because I'm believe in one timeline. I do because the series is not over. Developers could easily change there mind and change something. I believe that they'll will change back into one time line.

OoA/S-TMC-FS-FSA-OC-MM-TP-WW-PH-ST-AlltP-LA-Loz-Loz2

OoA/S I just threw in there because I never played it and according to most people it's game has little relevance.

Only on ZU.....

What's the OC doing in there?

Because Adam Brody is hot enough to merge timeline apparently.

[ganonlord6000]

Any idea why fans still support a single timeline? I thought that ST, if not TP, would shoot that down. But I found someone trying to justify a single timeline.

[url="]

Now I know why I stopped going to youtube. And, like this guy's other videos, he comes up with ideas that aren't even remotely implied in the games. does anyone know of anything that could destroy theories like this one? If this guy comes to this site, then we might be able to change his mind. And when was the last time there was a good arguement here?

[MikePetersSucks]

Who gives a shit? We're not a religion; if someone's going to spend their time making shit completely up, there's nothing we can do to "disprove" him and convert him to our way of thinking. Just stop trolling youtube for idiots and stop thinking it's our fucking job to enlighten people who don't want it. Jesus.

[Impossible]

Timeline:
People tend not to take me seriously because I'm believe in one timeline. I do because the series is not over. Developers could easily change there mind and change something. I believe that they'll will change back into one time line.

OoA/S-TMC-FS-FSA-OC-MM-TP-WW-PH-ST-AlltP-LA-Loz-Loz2

OoA/S I just threw in there because I never played it and according to most people it's game has little relevance.

Only on ZU.....

You didn't believe me a year ago when I told you this was what ZU was like, did you?

[ganonlord6000]

Who gives a shit? We're not a religion; if someone's going to spend their time making shit completely up, there's nothing we can do to "disprove" him and convert him to our way of thinking. Just stop trolling youtube for idiots and stop thinking it's our fucking job to enlighten people who don't want it. Jesus.

I think I'll give up on this.

[Pinecove]

You didn't believe me a year ago when I told you this was what ZU was like, did you?

'Coarse not. Because no stupid timelines came around. Only stupid ways to theorize and use evidence.

That being said, I still think it provides a few good theories now and then, so you can't completely discount it.

[sdp]

Well I think this thread has gone off topic but anyways as for the original question...

I always liked the tetraforce theory, it grabbed my imagination when I saw the fourth piece int he shield and I do think its possible that it might be explored in a future game. just because they don't want to now doesn't mean they won't change their minds.

Anyways as far as other stuff I always liked all the theories of zelda legends and the essays the webmaster would post, this was in the early 2000's before WW. I forget his name but yeah thats when i was active in the scholarly duty of the timeline. I don't think he hasn't posted here or worked on the site for many years though, same how this forum used to be active and its mostly dead now and i don't recognize any names anymore. Is there another zelda forum were timelines are discussed with facts and not crazy ass theories? This was the only place back in the day.

Anyways I'm going off topic again..but yeah I still really like the AOL backstory to be the first Zelda and AoL to be the last game in the timeline. If there is an explanation for the Princess' to be named Zelda then it just makes sense for it to be first and it makes sense that she wouldn't be revived until the last game. I'll always believe this.

Now I haven't really finished any zelda game after OoX and I know a lot has changed in recent years timeline wise but yeah I'm a fan of those old theories that we had like Ganonondorf remaining a pig after OOT but now we know thats not true anymore. I also liked how LoZ was the only game were Ganon was actually Killed so it made sense it was the last game but I think he's been killed in other games now right? I also hated the split timeline theory but I think TP pretty much confirms it. But yeah I liked those theories we had back then. Its crazy we have so many zelda games now from the original six and now theres ten more in just ten years.

Anyways before I knew a timeline existed I just thought each series was a reebot, LoZ/AoL, ALTTP/LA, OoT until I found htloz.com and their timeline, which was very wrong but I liked how it incorporated the cartoon and even cd-i games. After that of course I found zelda legends which I think had a different name back then.


Anyways the timeline is definitely more confusing than its ever been before, I mean we had it perfectly easy back then when you think about it OOT-MM-ALTTP-LA-LoZ-AoL. I do plan on one day finishing all the games and getting back into debating theories but not for a long time sadly..Everytime I start I stop halfway through for various reasons and when I come back I have to re-start the game so its an endless cycle.


And anyways, its funny how if we ever got an official timelime it'd likely make everyone mad and have tons of inconsistencies. So its better for the timeline placement to always remain fanon. Nintendo would never put the amount of detail the fandom has. Though they could definitely help out by trying to make some stuff more consistent and stop contradicting stuff hehe.

haha, what got me posting here again was seeing OOT Link with elf ears and how it affected the canon made me curious to see what people were saying. Also all my posts and topics not made in the past 3 days are gone, I guess the forum went through some pruning posts which is a shame, I'm sure plenty of great discussions were erased.

Edited by sdp, 18 June 2010 - 04:50 PM.