818 replies to this topic

[Arturo]

What, Lex is saying now that Ganon dies in OoT?

[ganonlord6000]

LOL, this guy takes the cake:

http://forums.zeldai...lly-die-in-oot/

What the hell is that?!!! This is by far the worst theory I have ever seen. Ganon is definitly not dead in OOT.

What, Lex is saying now that Ganon dies in OoT? http://forums.legend...ticons/default/.png

That was Lex? No surprise there. He clearly never saw the ending of OOT. How many times does he change his name?!

[Arturo]

Seran Aileron is Lex, yeah. He uses that avatar in other forums... (or at least used to)

[Average Gamer]

Lex's argument in that thread doesn't even make sense, as Ganon was sealed by the Sages on-screen. The Master Sword didn't kill Ganon then imprison his soul inside itself. Also, Ganon was slain by a Silver Arrow in ALttP, so his "imprisoning sword" argument doesn't even work with AST. It's not like there was only one Silver Arrow either.

Hey MPS, does Lex's argument about Orochi's death and sealing in Okami have some basis to it? He's been using that idea for his new "death=seal" Zelda theories.

[Duke Serkol]

It seems Japanese will sometime use the terms sealed and dead as interchangeable.
I mean, apart from Okami, even in Zelda it has happened in games other than AST. TWW in particular says at least a couple of times that Ganondorf revived, while the backstory clearly states that he never died and was instead merely sealed (in two different occasions).

But yeah... Ganondorf killed in OoT? Bollocks.

[MikePetersSucks]

Hey MPS, does Lex's argument about Orochi's death and sealing in Okami have some basis to it? He's been using that idea for his new "death=seal" Zelda theories.

Not a snowball's chance in hell. Okami goes out of it's way to describe the death of Orochi's body and the sealing of it's soul as separate actions, and this is only because, as a Youkai, beings like Orochi aren't bound to physical form and can probably just rematerialize given some time. Ganon(dorf) doesn't seem to possess this ability due to the Western Fantasy influences on the Zelda Mythos.

Not like it matters anyway. Even in the English language, "destroy" does not always mean "kill" or "annihilate." It's an archaic form of an Elizabethian form of the word "defeat." It's sufficient to remove someone's ability to oppose you in any way, whatsoever, such as when Napoleon lost all of his political power and influence and was banished and exiled to his final resting place, and refer to them as destroyed.

[Duke Serkol]

Okami goes out of it's way to describe the death of Orochi's body and the sealing of it's soul as separate actions, and this is only because, as a Youkai, beings like Orochi aren't bound to physical form and can probably just rematerialize given some time. Ganon(dorf) doesn't seem to possess this ability due to the Western Fantasy influences on the Zelda Mythos.

Doesn't AST kind of imply that though with the whole "It was Ganon's non-sealed malicious essence all along!" thing?

'course you may debate the canonity of AST, but still, it's there.


...and yeah, even if that's the case, Ganondorf's so obviously alive in OoT's ending that suggesting the opposite is not even funny.

[Pinecove]

^To add to that, Malladus had been sealed, but he was kind of dead in Spirit Tracks.
...bah.

[Jarsh]

Whoa.

---------------_______________________WW/PH>ST (Adult Timeline)
--------------/
TMC>>>OoT>>TP/LCT (Middle Timeline)
--------------\
---------------FS/FSA/MM>>>ALttP>>>LoZ/AoL/OoS/OoA/LA (Child Timeline)
---------------------------\___________/

What is a middle timeline anyway? He says it's a concept that OoT actually created three endings, but how would that even work?

[Fin]

That's not the only one. Check this out.

http://www.zeldauniverse.net/forums/zelda-theorizing/108996-two-adult-timelines-this-might-make-sense-for-the-2d-games-probably.html

I can't believe I managed to hold off on argumentum ad facepalm for so long in that thread.

Edited by fin, 27 April 2010 - 11:22 PM.

[Average Gamer]

Okami goes out of it's way to describe the death of Orochi's body and the sealing of it's soul as separate actions, and this is only because, as a Youkai, beings like Orochi aren't bound to physical form and can probably just rematerialize given some time. Ganon(dorf) doesn't seem to possess this ability due to the Western Fantasy influences on the Zelda Mythos.

Thank you for your insight. Where exactly were the death and the sealing of Orochi described as separate actions though? I haven't played the game and Lex says that we just see Orochi die then his soul's supposedly imprisoned 100 years later.

Doesn't AST kind of imply that though with the whole "It was Ganon's non-sealed malicious essence all along!" thing?

AST's just a mess. Ganon seems to have either resurrected out of the blue, used the Ancient Stone Tablets as Horcruxes, or stole power from the Hero/ine of Light. Regardless, losing the Triforce in ALttP should have separated Ganon from his power source and left him as an ordinary spirit, not to mention that it's never explained how Ganon sensed someone from our world and sucked said person into Hyrule.

To add to that, Malladus had been sealed, but he was kind of dead in Spirit Tracks.
...bah.

However, when he temporarily resurrected himself through Cole and the two were killed by Link and Zelda, the Lokomo said that Malladus would no longer be a problem. MPS, Duke, your thoughts on this?

Edited by Average Gamer, 28 April 2010 - 12:36 AM.

[Duke Serkol]

AST's just a mess. Ganon seems to have either resurrected out of the blue, used the Ancient Stone Tablets as Horcruxes, or stole power from the Hero/ine of Light.

You're making it more complicate than it is.
In AST Ganon's malicious essence summons the main character into Hyrule so that he can, through this character, steal the power of the land of Hyrule and resurrect himself. However the main character defeats him before his resurrection is complete and with Ganon's Essence no longer keeping him/her in Hyrule (after the player gave him a good beating; remember it was six years after ALttP he managed to pull this off), returns home soon thereafter.
It's pretty simple really.

Regardless, losing the Triforce in ALttP should have separated Ganon from his power source and left him as an ordinary spirit

The Demon King returned to being an ordinary spirit?
Got a source for that?

not to mention that it's never explained how Ganon sensed someone from our world and sucked said person into Hyrule.

Since when do we have to explain magic powers?
I mean, has anyone ever questioned Ganon's ability to teleport? Turn into a bat? Become invisible?

when he temporarily resurrected himself through Cole and the two were killed by Link and Zelda, the Lokomo said that Malladus would no longer be a problem. MPS, Duke, your thoughts on this?

Is that what they said? I only finished the game once, but it seemed to me that all they were saying was that the Lokomo would no longer need to watch over the land because Link and Zelda had proven to them that the people of this New Hyrule were ready to take care of themselves.
I could be misremembering though.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 28 April 2010 - 12:38 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Doesn't AST kind of imply that though with the whole "It was Ganon's non-sealed malicious essence all along!" thing?

'course you may debate the canonity of AST, but still, it's there.

The thing is that he had support, though; the tablets. In this case, he was acting like a lich.

^To add to that, Malladus had been sealed, but he was kind of dead in Spirit Tracks.
...bah.

I wouldn't say that; he just needed a body.

Thank you for your insight. Where exactly were the death and the sealing of Orochi described as separate actions though? I haven't played the game and Lex says that we just see Orochi die then his soul's supposedly imprisoned 100 years later.

SPOILERS:

There is a part of the game where you travel back in time to Orochi's original slaying, creating a stable time loop. You help kill the thing, but you don't get to stick around to watch the sealing of Orochi's soul; everyone goes home and parties for that particular night, and you go back to your own time. At best, Orochi was sealed the next morning.

[Duke Serkol]

The thing is that he had support, though; the tablets.

No, that was a groundless theory. The game never establishes nor suggests a connection between Ganon and the tablets.
The reason that theory came to exist is because of the misconception that the power Ganon wanted to take from the hero comes from the tablets.
This supposition was thought up because the in-game text never explains the power of the hero of light and seeing as we go around collecting tablets with mystical properties, we (David and I) jumped to conclusions.

I hold myself responsible for this misunderstanding and apologize to all those that based theories on it (all three of you )

Once the voice acting was translated though, it finally got clarified that the Hero of Light is, throughout his quest, channeling the power of the land of Hyrule (this is the cause of the timed events that occur in the game).
This, is the power Ganon sought to take for himself.

The tablets on the other hand, were necessary to obtain the means to reach and kill Ganon (ie. unlock a sealed portal to his tower and provide the Silver Arrows).
Consequently, it is implied that the tablets' purpose was always to stop Ganon, not to aid him.

[ganonlord6000]

Whoa.

---------------_______________________WW/PH>ST (Adult Timeline)
--------------/
TMC>>>OoT>>TP/LCT (Middle Timeline)
--------------\
---------------FS/FSA/MM>>>ALttP>>>LoZ/AoL/OoS/OoA/LA (Child Timeline)
---------------------------\___________/

What is a middle timeline anyway? He says it's a concept that OoT actually created three endings, but how would that even work?

Holy! How can anyone think of a third timeline? That timeline is seriously messed up anyway.

That's not the only one. Check this out.

http://www.zeldauniv...s-probably.html

I can't believe I managed to hold off on argumentum ad facepalm for so long in that thread.

Notice that both of those are from ZU? Timelines that deserve to be fought: more than two timelines, a single timeline, timelines that merge and use (nonexistant) evidence from the oracles. Oh. Was Lex ever a member here? I seem to recall seeing his name in older posts.

And regarding all of your AST arguement, all is said was that while Ganon's body was destroyed by Link, his spirit survived and was sealed. I just played it a few weeks ago and if I remember correctly, the tablets were needed to unseal the tablet that kept Ganon's spirit sealed. He was killed at the end of AST anyway, so what effect would it have?

Edited by ganonlord6000, 28 April 2010 - 06:11 PM.

[Pinecove]

I just played it a few weeks ago and if I remember correctly, the tablets were needed to unseal the tablet that kept Ganon's spirit sealed.

The only thing they did was unlock the power of the silver arrows. No spirit involved. The "power" Ganon refers to was the power of the hero, not the tablets.
Also yes Lex was a member of ZU.

[Average Gamer]

You're making it more complicate than it is.

I understand how each theory works, I'm just pointing out how AST doesn't provide a solid answer either way and each theory is flawed.

The Demon King returned to being an ordinary spirit?
Got a source for that?

The ALttP manual said that Ganon was just a normal thief before he claimed the Triforce. It seems as though all of his demonic power came from the Triforce, as he was its master. With his death and the Triforce switching its loyalty to Link, Ganon should no longer have access to the powers that made him anything other than a normal thief.

Since when do we have to explain magic powers?
I mean, has anyone ever questioned Ganon's ability to teleport? Turn into a bat? Become invisible?

Flying and shooting fireballs is one thing. Somehow becoming aware of a completely separate dimension/universe (the real world nonetheless), finding someone with completely inexplicable powers connected to Hyrule, and dragging that person across dimensions/universes is another matter entirely. Ganon was dead at that point to boot.

Is that what they said? I only finished the game once, but it seemed to me that all they were saying was that the Lokomo would no longer need to watch over the land because Link and Zelda had proven to them that the people of this New Hyrule were ready to take care of themselves.
I could be misremembering though.

Well, the fact that the Lokomo are impressed and feel no need to stick around suggests that Malladus' defeat at the hands of Link and Zelda was more significant than his loss to the spirits.

Also yes Lex was a member of ZU.

To be fair, a lot of LA's posters came from ZU.

There is a part of the game where you travel back in time to Orochi's original slaying, creating a stable time loop. You help kill the thing, but you don't get to stick around to watch the sealing of Orochi's soul; everyone goes home and parties for that particular night, and you go back to your own time. At best, Orochi was sealed the next morning.

However, from what I've heard on forums and seen on Youtube, Orochi's soul quickly leaves his corpse and flies off after he is defeated in the present. Why would his soul stick around to be sealed if it could just fly away? From the videos I've seen, my only guess is that Orochi used the last of his power in the past in an attempt to crush his enemies whereas he chose to flee in the present. I'd really like for this issue to be clarified.

Edited by Average Gamer, 29 April 2010 - 01:58 AM.

[Impossible]

Thanks for those clarifications on AST, Duke.

At first I thought Lex was actually correcting the other moron in that thread, but before long he descended into the usual incoherent babble.

I thought of three timelines ages ago, but not on an in-game canon or timeline split level. It was more that I could see that OoT was originally intended to be the IW, but also that TWW and ALttP are mutually exclusive and one would make it impossible for the other to occur. So it's not unreasonable that they basically just threw out the old games when they made TWW in order to make a new, better storyline - so that they wouldn't be held back by trying to be consistent with all these other games. After all, that in itself is the exact reason the timeline is still so vague, especially relating to where those games fit. So the first four games, and probably the Oracles with them, would be on a separate "old" continuity that no longer matters.

But FSA, being a new game that DOES connect to the old ones, makes everything a a lot weirder, and even more so because that game's story was a rushed, altered mess that doesn't really fit as a result of whatever was done to it. And then there's TP, of course. So the idea doesn't seem worth maintaining at the moment.

[Duke Serkol]

Holy! How can anyone think of a third timeline?

Jumbie (used to?) believes that TWW and ALttP both follow the adult end of OoT, creating an additional fork in the timeline to show what would have happened on Ganon's return if a new hero appeared or if none did.
All I can say: lulz.

I just played it a few weeks ago and if I remember correctly, the tablets were needed to unseal the tablet that kept Ganon's spirit sealed.

No that just doesn't work. Ganon was killed in ALttP, six years before AST. The tablets and henceforth the seal they unlock are, as stated in the title of the game, ancient.
Therefore it can't be Ganon's spirit that is unsealed by them.
What they do unseal is a portal (arguably the one remaining portal) to reach Ganon's Tower and the Silver Arrows.

I understand how each theory works, I'm just pointing out how AST doesn't provide a solid answer either way and each theory is flawed.

The point is that there really isn't room for some of those "theories". Everything I've said above is pretty much a fact presented by the game (unless I explicitly marked something as speculative).
The game states that Ganon's essence brought the main character to Hyrule so that he could steal power from them to revive himself and it states that the Hero of Light receives power from the land of Hyrule.
This is not "a flawed theory", these are facts as well as a solid answer as to how Ganon returned.

Granted you may ask questions such as "Why doesn't Ganon pull this off again whenever he is slain?", but that sort of "flaw" is not something that only occurs in AST. I mean, consider TWW's background story... we are told Ganon escapes the seal from OoT but the game doesn't bother telling us how. They scarcely ever explain every single little detail to us, if they did storyline discussion probably wouldn't exist.

The ALttP manual said that Ganon was just a normal thief before he claimed the Triforce. It seems as though all of his demonic power came from the Triforce, as he was its master. With his death and the Triforce switching its loyalty to Link, Ganon should no longer have access to the powers that made him anything other than a normal thief.

From what we've seen throughout the series, Ganondorf has always had strong magical powers of his own (already he did in OoT before getting the Triforce). Just consider Oracles, in that game he doesn't have the Triforce but he still is the Great Demon King, blue pig appearence and all.
Consequently I would deem it safe to assume that while the Triforce certainly increases his power, he doesn't revert to a regular thief's spirit upon losing it.

Flying and shooting fireballs is one thing. Somehow becoming aware of a completely separate dimension/universe (the real world nonetheless), finding someone with completely inexplicable powers connected to Hyrule, and dragging that person across dimensions/universes is another matter entirely.

How so?

Ganon was dead at that point to boot.

That he was. However the game says he still was able to pull it off.
Unless you got any canon source which demonstrates he shouldn't have been able to, I'd say we have no reason to doubt this.

Thanks for those clarifications on AST, Duke.

You're welcome. I'm sorry for there to have been confusion on the issue in the first place.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 29 April 2010 - 07:11 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

No, that was a groundless theory. The game never establishes nor suggests a connection between Ganon and the tablets.
The reason that theory came to exist is because of the misconception that the power Ganon wanted to take from the hero comes from the tablets.
This supposition was thought up because the in-game text never explains the power of the hero of light and seeing as we go around collecting tablets with mystical properties, we (David and I) jumped to conclusions.

My apologies. I did some minor help with the translations and reached similar false conclusions.

AST is kind of an asshole mindfuck.

However, from what I've heard on forums and seen on Youtube, Orochi's soul quickly leaves his corpse and flies off after he is defeated in the present. Why would his soul stick around to be sealed if it could just fly away? From the videos I've seen, my only guess is that Orochi used the last of his power in the past in an attempt to crush his enemies whereas he chose to flee in the present. I'd really like for this issue to be clarified.

That was entirely different. Apparently, the implication is that Orochi learned from his mistake (apparently sticking around because he needs the Chosen One to resurrect), but instead, in the present, he gave up his own individuality to split his soul and reincarnate as/resurrect/empower other demons lords.

[Pinecove]

At first I thought Lex was actually correcting the other moron in that thread, but before long he descended into the usual incoherent babble.

Just gonna say this: Lex DID say he was acting devil's advocate.

(note I'm playing devil's advocate, here; I'm not committing to anything)

[Average Gamer]

[quote name='Duke Serkol' date='29 April 2010 - 05:06 AM' timestamp='1272542787' post='525079']From what we've seen throughout the series, Ganondorf has always had strong magical powers of his own (already he did in OoT before getting the Triforce).[/quote]

However, the ALttP manual implies that he was just an ordinary thief before claiming the Triforce. Also, if I'm not mistaken, FSA Ganondorf had no magical powers before he stole the Trident.

[quote name='Duke Serkol]Just consider Oracles, in that game he doesn't have the Triforce but he still is the Great Demon King, blue pig appearence and all.[/quote]

That depends on which Ganon was being resurrected. If that was, say, LoZ Ganon, then there wouldn't be a problem.

[quote name='Duke Serkol']How so?[/quote]

Flying, fireballs, etc. is standard magic that is easily plausible in a fictional world. Extending one's grasp across separate, unconnected dimensions or different universes is infinitely more grand, especially if one is arguably breaking the fourth wall in the process. The fact that Ganon was dead at the time and, dependent on the Triforce or not, should have essentially been powerless makes this even more difficult to believe.

[quote name='Duke Serkol']Unless you got any canon source which demonstrates he shouldn't have been able to,[/quote]

ALttP's manual and pretty much every game where killing Ganon effectively renders him harmless and incapable of assailing the world.

[Duke Serkol]

My apologies. I did some minor help with the translations and reached similar false conclusions.

That's okay, you only worked on the in-game text, which back then was all we had.
Essentially, we were all trying to make sense of a book that was missing some of its most important pages.
And seeing as I probably also influenced you into coming to that conclusion, I should be the one to apologize really (which I did, in the previous posts).

Just gonna say this: Lex DID say he was acting devil's advocate.

Don't most people here believe Lex to actually be the Devil's Advocate anyway?

However, the ALttP manual implies that he was just an ordinary thief before claiming the Triforce.

He was the leader of the thieves (race).
And just because the manual doesn't attribute unusual powers to him doesn't mean he didn't have any (absence of evidence isn't evidence, especially when another source shows the contrary).

Also, if I'm not mistaken, FSA Ganondorf had no magical powers before he stole the Trident.

Same as above, and he was said to be destined to become the guardian of the desert, which we don't know whether it was just some kind of honorary title or if it was due to particular powers he may have as the lone Gerudo male.

That depends on which Ganon was being resurrected. If that was, say, LoZ Ganon, then there wouldn't be a problem.

The LoZ Ganon doesn't need the Triforce to be a demon but the ALttP one does? Ok you lost me.

Flying, fireballs, etc. is standard magic that is easily plausible in a fictional world.

In a fictional world, anything that the fiction tells us goes, whether you find it believable or not.

Unless you got any canon source which demonstrates he shouldn't have been able to,

ALttP's manual and pretty much every game where killing Ganon effectively renders him harmless and incapable of assailing the world.

ALttP manual doesn't lend any proof that he was completely powerless before getting the Triforce, let alone that he goes back to being that way after losing it.
And yeah, I think I said before that you could ask why he doesn't pull this off everytime he dies but that being these videogames, works of fiction not science, we can't expect them to fill up every little hole we can logically find. They're made by people, who do mistakes, oversights. Or plain simply leave things unanswered because they don't feel the need to do otherwise. In this example, we could speculate that the Hero of Light is an unique being and that this is why Ganon doesn't try this ever again. But I'd say we should rather take things at face value and accept that Ganon was able to do it this once, as the game inequivocably tells us, and did not do so in any other occasion for whatever reason.

[Average Gamer]

He was the leader of the thieves (race).

He may have led a gang of thieves, but that does not mean that he had any magical abilities. Also, since the Japanese manual stated that the struggles for the Triforce were more along the lines of political intrigue (likely involving kings, nobles, armies, etc.), a random thief finding the Triforce sounds ironic.

Same as above, and he was said to be destined to become the guardian of the desert, which we don't know whether it was just some kind of honorary title or if it was due to particular powers he may have as the lone Gerudo male.

Seeing as how the Gerudo male is considered the king, it was probably a title referring to how he'd rule over the desert. There really isn't much to suggest that Gerudo males may have unique powers, as OoT Ganondorf appears to have learned magic from Koume and Kotake.

The LoZ Ganon doesn't need the Triforce to be a demon but the ALttP one does? Ok you lost me.

In LoZ, Ganon is already a Maou and rules a Makai before he ever invades Hyrule. When ALttP first came out, it appeared that Ganondorf (in that incarnation) had no real power of his own and required the Triforce.

In a fictional world, anything that the fiction tells us goes, whether you find it believable or not.

Yet even fictional worlds are bound by some degrees of plausibility.

ALttP manual doesn't lend any proof that he was completely powerless before getting the Triforce, let alone that he goes back to being that way after losing it.

He doesn't sound particularly special when he's mentioned in the manual and the maidens merely call him Ganondorf the thief when speaking of the past. Also, as mentioned above, the manual may have been trying to go for irony.

And yeah, I think I said before that you could ask why he doesn't pull this off everytime he dies but that being these videogames, works of fiction not science, we can't expect them to fill up every little hole we can logically find.

What I was actually trying to convey in my previous post is that, upon death in all of the other games, Ganon is completely incapable of doing anything. Instead of sucking heroes across realms, possessing people, creating fires, etc., he can only wait for reincarnation or resurrection from outside forces.

Edited by Average Gamer, 29 April 2010 - 09:17 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

He may have led a gang of thieves, but that does not mean that he had any magical abilities.

Again, nothing implies that he didn't either.

There really isn't much to suggest that Gerudo males may have unique powers, as OoT Ganondorf appears to have learned magic from Koume and Kotake.

Yeah, I'll agree to that. Nonetheless, it is evident that Ganondorf was endowed with exceptionally powerful magic at the beginning of OoT.

In LoZ, Ganon is already a Maou and rules a Makai before he ever invades Hyrule. When ALttP first came out, it appeared that Ganondorf (in that incarnation) had no real power of his own and required the Triforce.

If we go by the recently translated interviews with Miyamoto it's pretty much a fact that ALttP was intended as a prequel to LoZ. And if that's the way it was meant, then there was no reason back then to contemplate the idea that the Ganon from LoZ was a different entity from the Ganon in ALttP (seeing as LoZ did not give a separate origin story for him).
Honestly, I really don't understand where you're coming from with this whole "Ganondorf in ALttP background appeared to have no powers" and "any kind of magic he may have had is lost with the Triforce". The games have repeatedly shown that he has powers of his own before and beyond possession of the Triforce, but you're trying to make a case for ALttP Ganon to somehow not behave in the same manner as the Ganon of the other games. I don't see why you would go for that.

Yet even fictional worlds are bound by some degrees of plausibility.

No, not really. They may need plausibility to be commercially succesful, but if they do not have it, that doesn't mean we get to draw lines over the parts that are not plausible and ignore them as not canon.

What I was actually trying to convey in my previous post is that, upon death in all of the other games, Ganon is completely incapable of doing anything. Instead of sucking heroes across realms, possessing people, creating fires, etc., he can only wait for reincarnation or resurrection from outside forces.

Yes. But in this game, after he died, he managed to set things up to attempt resurrecting himself.
You want to make a phone call to Takashi Tezuka and tell him that this isn't plausible? Ask him why Ganon doesn't do this in any other games?
I suspect the answer would be something along the lines of "Because that's the way the plot of the game is."

Really, I don't care if people consider the BS Zelda games canon or not. Just don't tell me that the plot of AST is a confused mess, because it's not. It's simple and straightforward, even if you may deem it not plausible.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 30 April 2010 - 10:00 AM.

[Average Gamer]

Again, nothing implies that he didn't either.

Having magical abilities would, however, be a trait worth mentioning. Even if he did have unmentioned magical abilities, he is not portrayed as a threat on his own in the manual or the game.

If we go by the recently translated interviews with Miyamoto it's pretty much a fact that ALttP was intended as a prequel to LoZ. And if that's the way it was meant, then there was no reason back then to contemplate the idea that the Ganon from LoZ was a different entity from the Ganon in ALttP (seeing as LoZ did not give a separate origin story for him).

I'm not doubting that they were meant to be the same entity, I'm just saying that Ganondorf did not seem to have any power of his own (or any significant amount of it) in his ALttP incarnation. My stance is that he was reincarnated for LoZ and became a true demon, explaining his power in that game.

The games have repeatedly shown that he has powers of his own before and beyond possession of the Triforce, but you're trying to make a case for ALttP Ganon to somehow not behave in the same manner as the Ganon of the other games.

Not every incarnation of Ganon is the same. OoT/TWW/TP Ganon appears to have been taught magic by the Twinrova sisters while LoZ/AoL Ganon is portrayed as a mighty demon all along. ALttP Ganon, however, is only said to be a thief with little to make him seem threatening or important on his own. One could even argue that Ganon's gang immediately falling apart and killing itself could reflect his lack of power, as his fellow thieves do not seem to fear him or respect whatever strength he may have. Also, if Ganon wasn't powerful at the time, the thieves betraying him and their comrades makes more sense, as they'd actually have at least some chance of claiming the Triforce.

No, not really. They may need plausibility to be commercially succesful, but if they do not have it, that doesn't mean we get to draw lines over the parts that are not plausible and ignore them as not canon.

Yet the Zelda series is sold to be commercially successful, and Ganon's breaking of the fourth wall is especially awkward for the series.

Yes. But in this game, after he died, he managed to set things up to attempt resurrecting himself.

But, going by the rest the series, he should have been incapable of even setting things up.

Edited by Average Gamer, 30 April 2010 - 10:18 PM.

[Nerushi]

Having magical abilities would, however, be a trait worth mentioning. Even if he did have unmentioned magical abilities, he is not portrayed as a threat on his own in the manual or the game.

That is because ALTTP was supposed to be Ganondorf origin. However, such inconsistencies have since been removed and there really no reason for us to even go by the SNES manual anymore.

I'm not doubting that they were meant to be the same entity, I'm just saying that Ganondorf did not seem to have any power of his own (or any significant amount of it) in his ALttP incarnation. My stance is that he was reincarnated for LoZ and became a true demon, explaining his power in that game.

Why are you excusing LoZ Ganon power with a fanfiction of your own? What makes you think him being reincarnated would give origin to new, unknown powers, when ALTTP ganon never possess any powers to being with. Also, it is far more likely that he was revived, rather than reincarnated, as being revived is the running theme for Ganondorf, while reincarnation never is.

Not every incarnation of Ganon is the same. OoT/TWW/TP Ganon appears to have been taught magic by the Twinrova sisters while LoZ/AoL Ganon is portrayed as a mighty demon all along. ALttP Ganon, however, is only said to be a thief with little to make him seem threatening or important on his own. One could even argue that Ganon's gang immediately falling apart and killing itself could reflect his lack of power, as his fellow thieves do not seem to fear him or respect whatever strength he may have. Also, if Ganon wasn't powerful at the time, the thieves betraying him and their comrades makes more sense, as they'd actually have at least some chance of claiming the Triforce.

OoT Ganondorf, despite his magical powers and so forth was too only a leader of a band thieves, as described in TP. Your argument that Ganondorf was probably weak, frail or whatever just because he was a thief and not a maou makes no sense at all. Particulary seeing how he was the one who survived.

[Average Gamer]

That is because ALTTP was supposed to be Ganondorf origin. However, such inconsistencies have since been removed and there really no reason for us to even go by the SNES manual anymore.

I'm talking about how things were when AST was created. I'm aware of the later games.

Why are you excusing LoZ Ganon power with a fanfiction of your own? What makes you think him being reincarnated would give origin to new, unknown powers, when ALTTP ganon never possess any powers to being with.

Reincarnation doesn't bring a person back just like they were in their previous life, and the LoZ manual establishes Ganon as an invader interested in the Triforce rumors rather than the kingdom of Hyrule.

OoT Ganondorf, despite his magical powers and so forth was too only a leader of a band thieves, as described in TP.

OoT and TP, however, show us that Ganondorf was also a king and a warlord who invaded Hyrule, not just a mere thief.

Your argument that Ganondorf was probably weak, frail or whatever

I'm not saying that he was weak or frail, just that, prior to obtaining the Triforce, he was an ordinary guy in ALttP.

[Nerushi]

Reincarnation doesn't bring a person back just like they were in their previous life, and the LoZ manual establishes Ganon as an invader interested in the Triforce rumors rather than the kingdom of Hyrule.

By the same reckoning, being a reincarnation wouldn't even guarantee the same name. Also, Ganondorf is always interested in the Triforce whenever he is aware of it. However, I find no basis for LoZ ganon beliving the Triforce were just rumors.

OoT and TP, however, show us that Ganondorf was also a king and a warlord who invaded Hyrule, not just a mere thief.

But he is not described by the sages as a warlord nor a king at all, but as a leader of a band of thieves. I find it slightly ironically that you're putting in an weak connotation on the word thief, as the sages was doing the same thing, and the ALTTP maidens as well most likely.

I'm not saying that he was weak or frail, just that, prior to obtaining the Triforce, he was an ordinary guy in ALttP.

There is no evidence of that either. Being an ordinary guy wouldn't allow him to come out victorious or obtain the Triforce in the first place. And as OoT shows, being called a thief doesn't mean you have to be an oridinary guy either.

[Average Gamer]

By the same reckoning, being a reincarnation wouldn't even guarantee the same name.

For what it's worth, LoZ's Ganon was actually named Ganon; it wasn't a nickname for Ganondorf.

Also, Ganondorf is always interested in the Triforce whenever he is aware of it. However, I find no basis for LoZ ganon beliving the Triforce were just rumors.

I meant that word of the Triforce (or rather, what it could do) made him invade. He didn't possess an already existing knowledge of the Triforce and he didn't care about Hyrule.

But he is not described by the sages as a warlord nor a king at all, but as a leader of a band of thieves.

And they say that he invaded Hyrule in the same sentence. They also specified that he was a demon thief renowned for his ruthlessness, whereas ALttP Ganon was only known as a thief (at best an evil one). The evil part wasn't even mentioned in the game; the maidens merely called him Ganondorf the thief.

Being an ordinary guy wouldn't allow him to come out victorious or obtain the Triforce in the first place.

Regarding his victory, the gang was killing itself at the same time, not focusing on Ganon. Even if he was the strongest, fastest, etc. among them, the manual and game still make it easily plausible for him to have been a regular guy.

And as OoT shows, being called a thief doesn't mean you have to be an oridinary guy either.

Again, he was a king in OoT, and a Gossip Stone even said that the Gerudo practically worshipped him as a god.