278 replies to this topic

[provehito]

There would be two of the same Triforce pieces in one timeline, which would presumably mess stuff up while screwing over the timeline that's now missing a Triforce piece.

So it would be a problem for AT Hyrule to be missing its ToC due to traveling across timelines, but not a problem for it to be missing from CT Hyrule while its another realm? You're not being consistent. Termina is a completely different realm than Hyrule, so if you're insinuating that the ToC ditched Link in the AT and shattered because he was leaving to a different timeline, I don't see why it wouldn't ditch him if he left Hyrule altogether.

What? o_O No it didn't. TWW established that when Link went back in time, he was no longer able to receive the ToC. He wasn't the Hero of Time, didn't have the Master Sword or his adulthood, and he went back to before ever getting the ToC. If he really can't take the ToC to Termina, then he sure as hell didn't have it in OoT's ending, because it's not split on the Child Timeline. It still seems to have been passed down in the same way the ToW was.

So, as he traveled back and forth within the single timeline of OoT, the ToC kept leaving him and coming back to him because he wasn't of age? I don't think so. The ToC didn't have to do with him being the Hero of Time. I'm pretty sure the ToC went to him because he was the most courageous person at the point when Ganondorf touched the Triforce.

What are you talking about? This isn't based on anything, and nothing ever says this. It didn't travel back with Link for the reasons I stated above, due to him going back to before receiving it. There's no evidence that the Triforce can't leave Hyrule. Link didn't leave Hyrule, he left the timeline, so the Triforce had no owner to go to. I don't see how that's the same. Link still exists in the same stream of time, nothing has prompted him to lose his piece.

Well, I was playing along with his idea that Link still had the ToC in the CT, which I was skeptical of to begin with. But that picture says otherwise.

[Average Gamer]

So it would be a problem for AT Hyrule to be missing its ToC due to traveling across timelines, but not a problem for it to be missing from CT Hyrule while its another realm?

Being in another realm (one similar to Hyrule at that) is not as serious as being in what's practically another universe where such a Triforce piece already exists.

[SOAP]

However, I don't think the mark would be present when he leaves Hyrule, as he's entering a world where it really doesn't exist.

Yea, except Link had the Triforce of Courage. Did it cease existing when he went to Termina?

This, like the timeless Sacred Realm idea, is stupid. Though the Sacred Realm is only accessible through Hyrule, it's ludicrous to think a divine entity like the Triforce isn't capable of dimensional travel.

Actually I don't think it's all that stupid that the Triforce can't leave Hyrule, just like it can't leave it's own place in the time and go into the past lest it craet a paradox with two TOC's in the CT and none in the AT. It can't leave Hyrule's dimension because it would upset the balance of the three parts of the Triforce. It can be shattered into smaller peices but not moved to another dimension/time. The sahttering of the ToC I always believed to have been caused when Zelda sends Link back in time the final time, which may have put a strain on the ToC since it wasn't same way he traveled back in time the other times before and the ToC was forced being forced back in time but couldn't make the trip because it would of the paradox it would create.

[provehito]

Being in another realm (one similar to Hyrule at that) is not as serious as being in what's practically another universe where such a Triforce piece already exists.

Says who? You're making up your own rules at this point.

[MikePetersSucks]

TWW established that the Triforce cannot leave Hyrule, so when Link went to Termina, it wasn't with him anymore.

No it didn't. Established that he lost the Triforce because Link LEFT THE TIMELINE.

The ToC can't leave Hyrule. That's why it didn't travel back with Link from the AT, but instead split into eight shards. So, it's not stupid. It's based on canon.

See above. It is stupid, because Hyrule isn't the entire space-time continuum, and the Triforce is responsible for maintaining all creation, not just Hyrule.

That was the smallest part of my response.

Focus on this instead, the main part of what I said: We don't see the ToC til he's in Ganon's Tower. That's really the only time he had the ToC, plot-wise. As soon as he gets the ToC, he heads to confront Ganon.

He had the Triforce of Courage ever since he woke up as an adult.

Well, Hyrule as in the realm of Hyrule. If it physically can be taken from one realm to another, I don't see why it physically can't be taken from one timeline to another.

I've already explained this to you. Every world that you can conceivably access are in one timeline. Not just Hyrule's time split, but probably also Termina, the Minish Realm, the Twilight Realm, etc. etc. Infinite worlds, two timelines. You can't take the Triforce across timelines because the other timeline already has one.

If the Triforce split, Zelda would have her piece, and Nintendo wouldn't forget that if they were trying to imply Triforce possession. I think that it's more likely that the mark appeared for more AoL/OoX-ish reasons, despite the prominent ToC. That would be because he's aligned with that force, or something. He was already "chosen by the gods" and "a fated hero", right?

Maybe the other two didn't receive theirs yet, fuck if I know. Still, the mark is there, and it glows on a central piece, so that means he has a Triforce piece.

Judging from his ears, Ganondorf had the ToP before the execution scene in TP.

His ears have nothing to do with having the Triforce of Power. Ganondorf gained demonic features like pointy ears and sickly green skin because he established himself as the Maou/Demon King.

So it would be a problem for AT Hyrule to be missing its ToC due to traveling across timelines, but not a problem for it to be missing from CT Hyrule while its another realm? You're not being consistent. Termina is a completely different realm than Hyrule, so if you're insinuating that the ToC ditched Link in the AT and shattered because he was leaving to a different timeline, I don't see why it wouldn't ditch him if he left Hyrule altogether.

Already addressed this. Hyrule and Termina are two different worlds, but they're in the same timeline. The Goddesses left the Triforce to govern ALL CREATION, which would mean all of their worlds, not just Hyrule. The two timelines can't interact with each other whatsoever, the Door of Time was closed.

So, as he traveled back and forth within the single timeline of OoT, the ToC kept leaving him and coming back to him because he wasn't of age? I don't think so. The ToC didn't have to do with him being the Hero of Time. I'm pretty sure the ToC went to him because he was the most courageous person at the point when Ganondorf touched the Triforce.

The timeline was still singular during that period, so he kept the Triforce, as the times he kept traveling back to were post-split. Only when the Door of Time was closed were there two timelines, and thus two Hyrules, and thus two Triforces. The Triforces went to their owners not based on who's most courageous or who's wisest, but because they were the chosen Hero of Time and Princess of Destiny.

Actually I don't think it's all that stupid that the Triforce can't leave Hyrule, just like it can't leave it's own place in the time and go into the past lest it craet a paradox with two TOC's in the CT and none in the AT. It can't leave Hyrule's dimension because it would upset the balance of the three parts of the Triforce. It can be shattered into smaller peices but not moved to another dimension/time. The sahttering of the ToC I always believed to have been caused when Zelda sends Link back in time the final time, which may have put a strain on the ToC since it wasn't same way he traveled back in time the other times before and the ToC was forced being forced back in time but couldn't make the trip because it would of the paradox it would create.

What paradox? If Link took the Triforce of Courage with him to Termina, that's no big deal. The Triforce governs the cosmos, and if someone wants to reunite the pieces, they can take that portal in the Lost Woods. It's still there, since Link uses it to go home at the end.

Says who? You're making up your own rules at this point.

His "rules" are based in common sense and understanding of what we're told about Hyrule's cosmology. You're the one making up (or parroting shit other people made up) crap like "The Sacred Realm is timeless."

[Showsni]

Already addressed this. Hyrule and Termina are two different worlds, but they're in the same timeline. The Goddesses left the Triforce to govern ALL CREATION, which would mean all of their worlds, not just Hyrule. The two timelines can't interact with each other whatsoever, the Door of Time was closed.

To play devil's advocate, we're told the triforce was left behind to gevern the world. This might just mean the world of Hyrule, and the goddesses' creation specifically; canonwise, we don't know that the goddesses created Termina or have anything to do with it. There is circumstantial evidence (depictions of the triforce in Termina), noncanon evidence (the old American Nintendo website, claiming Termina was created accidently at the same time as Hyrule) but no hard and fast facts. It's possible the triforce can't leave even the world of Hyrule, and not just the multiverse containing it.

[Average Gamer]

His ears have nothing to do with having the Triforce of Power. Ganondorf gained demonic features like pointy ears and sickly green skin because he established himself as the Maou/Demon King.

Ganondorf already had unnatural green skin before he ever conquered Hyrule; He didn't gain points on his ears, however, until he gained the Triforce of Power.

[Link's Awakening]

Ok, obliviously I used a bad choice of words to get my point across. My point being I just get the feeling that it cheapens the idea of the Triforce to say that two different timelines exist and each one has its own Triforce. Again, my personal feelings against the split timeline theory. Or are we suggesting there is one Triforce and it exist in both timelines? And I guess I am not clear on your point about why the timelines can't interact with each other or why one would be doomed?

The Triforce could be just one Triforce interacting in two different timelines, or it could be "two" because there's two of everything else. The timelines can't interact because they were split from each other. Traveling to other worlds is one thing, but all of those worlds are in ONE Timeline. You usually can't cross over. And the Triforce is the foundation and providence of the world. The Goddesses basically left it behind to keep their creation together. The power to use it to wish for things is derived from the fact that the Triforce is basically the "program" that keeps the system/universe running. Without the Triforce, you can't have a world.

http://tvtropes.org/.../CosmicKeystone the Triforce is one of these.

Anyway, even ignoring all that, you can't just ignore something like the Split Timeline just because you personally dislike the consequences. There's evidence for it, and it's official; now one of the few timeline facts we have. You can't just ignore that because the idea of the Triforce having two different locations/incarnations displeases you.

Woah, calm down buddy. I in no way ignored the split timeline idea. I merely said I disagree with it and stated why. If you read my OP again, I fully acknowledge that the split timeline just maybe in fact the story. And yes, Aonuma did pretty much confirm this. But Nintendo has yet to release any thing comprehensive to support the timeline either way. Like I said, it just may be the eventual direction or it just may be Nintendo's answer til they tidy it up into one. While it maybe the theory thats accepted and out there, til Nintendo releases a game, a book, comic or whatever thats official from Nintendo, the split timeline theory is hardly official. So therefore, I think its open for any speculation warranted if the claims can be supported by evidence in the games and that includes the split theory

[MikePetersSucks]

Ganondorf already had unnatural green skin before he ever conquered Hyrule; He didn't gain points on his ears, however, until he gained the Triforce of Power.

He was already on his way to becoming a Demon King even then; conquering the land and making it a place of darkness probably completed it, as a Maou needs his Makai.

To play devil's advocate, we're told the triforce was left behind to gevern the world. This might just mean the world of Hyrule, and the goddesses' creation specifically; canonwise, we don't know that the goddesses created Termina or have anything to do with it. There is circumstantial evidence (depictions of the triforce in Termina), noncanon evidence (the old American Nintendo website, claiming Termina was created accidently at the same time as Hyrule) but no hard and fast facts. It's possible the triforce can't leave even the world of Hyrule, and not just the multiverse containing it.

Aside from Termina, just about every other world is described as being created by the Goddesses, and I doubt they'd make a world that looks like a carbon copy of a world they didn't make.

Woah, calm down buddy. I in no way ignored the split timeline idea. I merely said I disagree with it and stated why. If you read my OP again, I fully acknowledge that the split timeline just maybe in fact the story. And yes, Aonuma did pretty much confirm this. But Nintendo has yet to release any thing comprehensive to support the timeline either way. Like I said, it just may be the eventual direction or it just may be Nintendo's answer til they tidy it up into one. While it maybe the theory thats accepted and out there, til Nintendo releases a game, a book, comic or whatever thats official from Nintendo, the split timeline theory is hardly official. So therefore, I think its open for any speculation warranted if the claims can be supported by evidence in the games and that includes the split theory

Well, Nintendo said there's a Split Timeline, but if that's not enough, TP and TWW literally can't be on the same timeline, and Aonuma said they were "parallel to each other."

[Viral]

He was already on his way to becoming a Demon King even then; conquering the land and making it a place of darkness probably completed it, as a Maou needs his Makai.

There is nothing that suggests he was "becoming" a Maou before he entered the Sacred Realm. He simply became one when he claimed the Triforce and created his Makai.

[Average Gamer]

There is nothing that suggests he was "becoming" a Maou before he entered the Sacred Realm. He simply became one when he claimed the Triforce and created his Makai.

I agree with Viral here. I doubt that the green skin was an early sign of becoming a Maou. The Twinrova Sisters also have strange green skin, but I have no reason to believe that they were aiming to become Maous as well.

[SOAP]

There is nothing that suggests he was "becoming" a Maou before he entered the Sacred Realm. He simply became one when he claimed the Triforce and created his Makai.

I agree with Viral here. I doubt that the green skin was an early sign of becoming a Maou. The Twinrova Sisters also have strange green skin, but I have no reason to believe that they were aiming to become Maous as well.

Was his skin raelly green? I thought it was just a really dark version of the olive tone tan of the other Gerudo. In TP, it looks like a dark greenish gray.

[Average Gamer]

Ganondorf's skin was certainly green. It was particularly noticeable in Link's dream at the beginning of OoT.

[Sir Turtlelot]

I don't think that his skin plays any real significance, Nintendo probably just made him a dark green, to give him more of an evil appearance.

[Impossible]

I'm pretty sure MPS is right, though, didn't Miyamoto say that Ganondorf's features were changed in the future to make him look more demonic? That's all it is.

[MikePetersSucks]

There is nothing that suggests he was "becoming" a Maou before he entered the Sacred Realm. He simply became one when he claimed the Triforce and created his Makai.

You mean aside from being able to summon demons and using black magic typically attributed to Maou? Because he was doing that without the Triforce.

I agree with Viral here. I doubt that the green skin was an early sign of becoming a Maou. The Twinrova Sisters also have strange green skin, but I have no reason to believe that they were aiming to become Maous as well.

They ARE witches.

[Average Gamer]

You mean aside from being able to summon demons and using black magic typically attributed to Maou? Because he was doing that without the Triforce.

It wasn't stated in the game that his powers were that of a Maou before he gained the ToP, just that he had dark powers.

They ARE witches.

But they aren't Maous, which is my point. They don't have green skin due to some attempt at becoming a Maou.

Edited by Average Gamer, 18 April 2009 - 05:09 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

It wasn't stated in the game that his powers were that of a Maou before he gained the ToP, just that he had dark powers.

Obvious symbolism is obvious, though.

But they aren't Maous, which is my point. They don't have green skin due to some attempt at becoming a Maou.

Yea, so? Witches are usually depicted with green skin and making deals with demons. Maou are usually depicted as green skinned and ruling over demons. The two are treated more or less the same way: Evil beings that traffic with demonic forces.

[Average Gamer]

Obvious symbolism is obvious, though.

I don't see any "he's halfway to being a Maou" symbolism. Just that he has dark powers.

Yea, so?

It means that the green skin is just the result of being evil, not something specific to becoming a Maou. Ganondorf probably gained the pseudo-Hylian ears from having the ToP. We've seen another case of a Triforce piece creating (or amplifying) Hylian traits in TWW with Tetra.

[MikePetersSucks]

There's not much difference between being evil and being a Maou, especially if you're trafficing demons either way. Besides, Twinrova have pointy ears too, if I remember.

[Sir Turtlelot]

No, Twinrova has round ears.

http://www.geocities...11/twinrova.jpg

[MikePetersSucks]

Myeh. Either way, green skin = demonic.

[Sir Turtlelot]

Maybe Gerudos turn green when they learn magic, if my memory serves me right, Ganondorf & Twinrova were the only Gerudos who learned how to use magic (I don't count Nabooru, since her powers were given to her, she didn't learn them). It also could be the type of magic too, since their magic was considered dark.

Just an idea.

[Impossible]

Is anyone listening to me? Miyamoto said that Ganondorf was supposed to look more demonic in the future. Now if only I knew where that interview was. >_> Does anyone have it?

[MikePetersSucks]

I doubt it's just some convenient Gerudo trait. Three people learn dark, demonic magic worthy of a Maou or Majo (type of witch), both of which are more or less the same thing given only a difference in gender and scope of dominion. Therefore, they look sickly green and demonic. I don't see why you're fighting this, Turtlelot, it's fairly ironclad.

[Sir Turtlelot]

Umm, my bad? I didn't realize I was fighting anything... Like I said, the Gerudo trait thing was just an idea, I don't really think that's why they're green, I just came acrossed the idea in a random thought, so I threw it out there, because it sounded interesting at the time.

I don't think that his skin plays any real significance, Nintendo probably just made him a dark green, to give him more of an evil appearance.

This is my real opinion on the matter, the same probably applies to Twinrova as well. And even if there is some significance to them being green, it's not like it effects anything else.

Edited by Sir Turtlelot, 21 April 2009 - 07:39 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

The them being green = evil is the whole point of the "demon king" symbolism...

Wow, you guys don't connect the dots well.

[Sir Turtlelot]

MPS, I understand what your saying, and your probably right. But whether or not your claim is right, it still doesn't really affect anything.

[MikePetersSucks]

Yea, it does, because it means the Triforce of Power isn't responsible for his pointy ears.

[TheAvengerLever]

I think what he's trying to say is, "Why does the fact that the TOP doesn't give him pointy ears relevant?"