278 replies to this topic

[Average Gamer]

The symbol on Din's pearl is...uh...Din's symbol. It's associated with her in the Oracles games.

You're right. For some reason I recalled the Zora symbol being on the pearl. Still, the symbol is on Komali's clothing and throughout Dragon Roost Island.

I'm pretty sure those Zora are migrators. And if we're playing the "Can't reawaken Hyrule" thing, maybe the Goddesses banished them to other seas.

Maybe, but I doubt that the Goddesses would basically damn a good, faithful race out of their own country/what used to be their country just because they were fish-people to begin with. Also, we didn't see any Zora in the "other seas" in PH while we did see Gorons of all people. To me, it looks more like something happened to the Zora.

The titles went from one holder of the instrument to the other, so the Fado and Makar thing makes sense, since the instrument exists solely for the purpose of the Deku Tree's harvest ritual.

That's true, but even then the instrument is apparently in the possession of only the Kokiri.

Too bad the Zora never used grappling hooks.

I meant the Rito as in before they encountered Valoo but still being the Rito. Medli even tells Link that the Rito used grappling hooks before they could get wings.

Also, the longshot (a device similar to a grappling hook) was in the Water Temple in OoT, but that probably doesn't mean anything. Just throwing it out there.

Why can't the Rito be wingless bird people who acquired Valoo as their guardian deity and/or were created by Valoo?

They might have migrated into the Great Sea, but considering the Zora angle and that ocean migrations/long travels don't seem too common on the Great Sea (Zunari and the Gorons), I doubt it. Also, we know that there was indeed a time when the Rito needed grappling hooks, so it would appear that Valoo didn't make them, since they weren't always able to get wings.

You'd still need to kind of explain where the hell Valoo came from anyway, as he doesn't havr a native OOT Hyrulian Guardian Deity to be descended from like the Deku Tree and Jabun.

You might as well try to explain where Zephos and Cyclos came from. Anyway, judging from the grappling hook thing the Rito weren't always in contact with Valoo, so it doesn't seem like he came to the Great Sea and made them.

Edited by Average Gamer, 30 April 2009 - 05:25 PM.

[Sir Turtlelot]

You're right. For some reason I recalled the Zora symbol being on the pearl. Still, the symbol is on Komali's clothing and throughout Dragon Roost Island.

The Zora Symbol was on a pearl, it was on Nayru's Pearl, the one Lord Jabun had.

[Average Gamer]

The Zora Symbol was on a pearl, it was on Nayru's Pearl, the one Lord Jabun had.

Yeah, I saw it earlier today when doing a Google image search for Din's Pearl in The Wind Waker.

[Crimson Lego]

You're right. For some reason I recalled the Zora symbol being on the pearl. Still, the symbol is on Komali's clothing and throughout Dragon Roost Island.

I think there was something about the Rito evolving from the Zora. I read somewhere that when the Great Flood occurred, the Zoras took refuge on the Dragon Roost Island, and without water habitats, evolved into bird-like creatures. So it's not surprising that symbol would be on the pearl or Prince Komali's clothing.

Edited by Leo Crimson, 01 May 2009 - 09:12 AM.

[Raien]

I think there was something about the Rito evolving from the Zora. I read somewhere that when the Great Flood occurred, the Zoras took refuge on the Dragon Roost Island, and without water habitats, evolved into bird-like creatures. So it's not surprising that symbol would be on the pearl or Prince Komali's clothing.

The concept of the Zora evolving into Rito is baloney; nothing evidences it in the game or in official text elsewhere. Evolution has not been, and never will be, a part of the Zelda mythology.

Edited by Raien, 01 May 2009 - 09:31 AM.

[TheAvengerLever]

*shakes fist* Damn it, you Zelda-Creationists! Evolution DOES exist and you can't deny that! Scientific blabber to prove my point and make you look FOOLISH!

[SOAP]

I think there was something about the Rito evolving from the Zora. I read somewhere that when the Great Flood occurred, the Zoras took refuge on the Dragon Roost Island, and without water habitats, evolved into bird-like creatures. So it's not surprising that symbol would be on the pearl or Prince Komali's clothing.

The concept of the Zora evolving into Rito is baloney; nothing evidences it in the game or in official text elsewhere. Evolution has not been, and never will be, a part of the Zelda mythology.

Yes, but having the Zora's symbol, which seems to be connected to Nayru, appear everywhere on Dragon Roost does give one pause. Especially since Dragon Roost is more associated with Din and is where you get Din's Pearl. My only guess is that the game designers originally had a story arc for Greatfish Island and Laruto would have been a sage there or her decendant but that got scrapped and Laruto got relegated as Medli's ancestor. Storyline-wise I explain it as Laruto being the the last of the Zora, in Hyrule at laest, and with no Zora to continue on her bloodline she mates with a Rito male. It's fantasy. Don't think about it too hard. So I think the Rito are at least a small percent Zora, but only within the lineage Medli comes from. This could explain the Zora symbols everywhere as it could be a reference to that interbreeding of races and Laruto's bloodline. IIRC, wasn't Komali's grandmother part of that bloodline too, as she had the harp before Medli? That could explain the symbol on Komali's shirt as it could be a gift from his grandmother.

[MikePetersSucks]

Maybe, but I doubt that the Goddesses would basically damn a good, faithful race out of their own country/what used to be their country just because they were fish-people to begin with. Also, we didn't see any Zora in the "other seas" in PH while we did see Gorons of all people. To me, it looks more like something happened to the Zora.

They weren't damned. There's no fish to catch in the Great Sea, so irregardless, it's not a place the Zora could live. Like what the Twili were offered, it's a new beginning for the Zoras to find their own humble bounty. Aside from this hypothetical scenario, it's not in the Goddesses' style to mutate entire races and such.

That's true, but even then the instrument is apparently in the possession of only the Kokiri.

Well, yea, because it was made for them to use. I can't see a non-Kokiri/Korok practicing for a year to do a ceremony that has no impact on them. As opposed to Medli's instrument, where the next performer is not picked by the guardian deity, but by the last performer/priestess, and the responsibility belongs to the race that has to live in that area.

They might have migrated into the Great Sea, but considering the Zora angle and that ocean migrations/long travels don't seem too common on the Great Sea (Zunari and the Gorons), I doubt it. Also, we know that there was indeed a time when the Rito needed grappling hooks, so it would appear that Valoo didn't make them, since they weren't always able to get wings.

Your countering to the ocean migration idea is, of course, assuming the Rito didn't arrive until post-Flood already happened. They could've moved in somewhere between OOT and TWW, using grappling hooks, then Valoo gave them wings to survive the Great Sea.

You might as well try to explain where Zephos and Cyclos came from. Anyway, judging from the grappling hook thing the Rito weren't always in contact with Valoo, so it doesn't seem like he came to the Great Sea and made them.

Well, since they govern the wind, Zephos and Cyclos were probably always around.

Storyline-wise I explain it as Laruto being the the last of the Zora, in Hyrule at laest, and with no Zora to continue on her bloodline she mates with a Rito male. It's fantasy. Don't think about it too hard.

The position of Sage isn't passed on by blood. This is pretty much confirmed by the fact that Medli and Komali's grandmother aren't blood-related, but both of them were technically candidates of Sage-hood.

[Crimson Lego]

I think there was something about the Rito evolving from the Zora. I read somewhere that when the Great Flood occurred, the Zoras took refuge on the Dragon Roost Island, and without water habitats, evolved into bird-like creatures. So it's not surprising that symbol would be on the pearl or Prince Komali's clothing.

The concept of the Zora evolving into Rito is baloney; nothing evidences it in the game or in official text elsewhere. Evolution has not been, and never will be, a part of the Zelda mythology.

If evolution did not exist, how do you explain what happened to the Koroks? In WW, there is pure and obvious evidence that their ancestors were once Kokiri, and the 2 islands of trees are the Kokiri Forest and Lost Woods. Why not the Rito and Zoras?

[Average Gamer]

They weren't damned.

Banished would have been a better word.

There's no fish to catch in the Great Sea, so irregardless, it's not a place the Zora could live.

Outset appears to be a fishing village, and one of Ganondorf's translated quotes on LA apparently says that fish did exist in the Great Sea to some extent. Also, it's not like the Zora would only be able to eat fish.

Like what the Twili were offered, it's a new beginning for the Zoras to find their own humble bounty.

The Twili's ancestors were sealed away for being evil, and the Twilight Realm doesn't really look like a good "new beginning" considering that it's mainly an empty void. The populace seems to be all messed up and barely responsive due to the realm as well.

Aside from this hypothetical scenario, it's not in the Goddesses' style to mutate entire races and such.

I don't see why they would banish the Zora from the entire Great Sea just because they were fish-people though.

Well, yea, because it was made for them to use. I can't see a non-Kokiri/Korok practicing for a year to do a ceremony that has no impact on them. As opposed to Medli's instrument, where the next performer is not picked by the guardian deity, but by the last performer/priestess, and the responsibility belongs to the race that has to live in that area.

You do have a point there. Still, the fact that the Rito possess a replica of Laruto's harp and highly regard it all the same seemingly suggests, at the very least, the slightest connection.

Your countering to the ocean migration idea is, of course, assuming the Rito didn't arrive until post-Flood already happened. They could've moved in somewhere between OOT and TWW, using grappling hooks, then Valoo gave them wings to survive the Great Sea.

There's a faint possibility, but it still leaves the Zora as having utterly vanished when if anything the environment should allow them to thrive. Also, the Grappling Hook Link discovers is located on Dragon Roost itself. If the wings made the Grappling Hooks obsolete, why is there still a Grappling Hook stowed away on the island, and why are parts of the island even built for the use of Grappling Hooks?

The position of Sage isn't passed on by blood. This is pretty much confirmed by the fact that Medli and Komali's grandmother aren't blood-related, but both of them were technically candidates of Sage-hood.

Wasn't Komali's grandmother just a candidate for being Valoo's interpreter? I know that Medli was able to become a Sage, but I've never heard anything about Komali's grandmother being able to become a Sage.

If evolution did not exist, how do you explain what happened to the Koroks?

They changed their shapes through magic. Basically, shape-shifting.

[Raien]

The Zelda universe is one fundamentally built around magic, not science. Read the Zelda Symbolism article in my signature for further explanation.

Edited by Raien, 01 May 2009 - 06:58 PM.

[Sir Turtlelot]

They changed their shapes through magic. Basically, shape-shifting.

From a technical standpoint, they still evolved. One definition of evolving is adapting to your environment, to survive/make life easier. The Kokiri transformed in to the Korok, so they could live on the Great Sea. Magic or not, they still "evolved".

[Average Gamer]

From a technical standpoint, they still evolved. One definition of evolving is adapting to your environment, to survive/make life easier. The Kokiri transformed in to the Korok, so they could live on the Great Sea. Magic or not, they still "evolved".

That's really stretching it. Evolution is typically a gradual process that your genes/whatever go through. The Koroks, already forest spirits, just went "It's Magic Time," and changed shape in a second. They could probably change back into the Kokiri at will. As an example, the Kokiri-Korok thing is more like getting out of your car and getting into a helicopter.

Also, I sincerely doubt that cases such as Ganondorf instantly changing into Ganon would really count as evolution.

Edited by Average Gamer, 01 May 2009 - 09:10 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Outset appears to be a fishing village, and one of Ganondorf's translated quotes on LA apparently says that fish did exist in the Great Sea to some extent. Also, it's not like the Zora would only be able to eat fish.

Irregardless, the Great Sea doesn't appear very supportive of the entire Zora race. At most, they'd end up being endangered. They wouldn't prosper just because there's a buttload of water.

Especially since there's fresh and salt water Zora, and lakes are fresh water.

The Twili's ancestors were sealed away for being evil, and the Twilight Realm doesn't really look like a good "new beginning" considering that it's mainly an empty void. The populace seems to be all messed up and barely responsive due to the realm as well.

More messed up and barely responsive because of Zant's fucking around with them. The Twili were sealed away for being GREEDY, and as Zant bitterly explains, the Twili lost their ambitions and desires and became content and, if Midna is to be believed, happy. The Twilight is dark, but it is beautiful.

I don't see why they would banish the Zora from the entire Great Sea just because they were fish-people though.

Because they'd die out and/or would mess up the seal on Hyrule by going down there.

You do have a point there. Still, the fact that the Rito possess a replica of Laruto's harp and highly regard it all the same seemingly suggests, at the very least, the slightest connection.

It's not a replica, it's the same exact instrument.

There's a faint possibility, but it still leaves the Zora as having utterly vanished when if anything the environment should allow them to thrive. Also, the Grappling Hook Link discovers is located on Dragon Roost itself. If the wings made the Grappling Hooks obsolete, why is there still a Grappling Hook stowed away on the island, and why are parts of the island even built for the use of Grappling Hooks?

Uh...durr...for the young Rito that don't have wings yet? The younglings have to go up the same path Link takes to receive a scale. The environment wouldn't allow them to thrive because there's little fish to eat (which is the sustenance of the Zoras), it's full of predaratory monsters, and it's salt water when the Hyrulian Zora are fresh water amphibians. If the Goddesses were going to magically change them to suit their environment, why not just make them salt water fish and alter their densities so they can't tolerate the deeper water near Hyrule?

Wasn't Komali's grandmother just a candidate for being Valoo's interpreter? I know that Medli was able to become a Sage, but I've never heard anything about Komali's grandmother being able to become a Sage.

Medli was chosen solely because she had the instrument, which she received from Komali's grandmother. Indeed, Laruto's hint was "Find the one with this instrument of fate." Komali's grandmother died very recently, so what was Link to do with that hint if he arrived months earlier? "Oh, sorry, I meant the person who will get the instrument next"?

[SOAP]

The fact that Medli gets her instrument from Komali's grandmother is what made me think Komali's grandmother was in the same line of sages, whether it be by blood or just a line of people who the harp was passed down hand to hand till it eventually gets handed to Medli.

[Average Gamer]

Irregardless, the Great Sea doesn't appear very supportive of the entire Zora race. At most, they'd end up being endangered. They wouldn't prosper just because there's a buttload of water.

Yet there should arguably be a decent amount around. Even with relatively few fish, the Great Sea has to be capable of supporting some Zoras.

Especially since there's fresh and salt water Zora, and lakes are fresh water.

If you're basing that off of Majora's Mask, Zora Link can leap into fresh water without any repercussions. There don't seem to be fresh water and salt water Zoras–just Zoras.

More messed up and barely responsive because of Zant's fucking around with them.

The cutscenes where Zant meets Ganon and where Zant curses Midna show that the Twilight Realm itself was pretty much the same before TP, and even after the Sols free the Twili they appear to be too messed up in general to properly acknowledge Link. The dude's practically an alien to them and they don't even say a word to him.

The Twili were sealed away for being GREEDY,

Judging from the whole invasion thing and the Lanayru cutscene, I'd say that there was a bit more than greed that led to them being sealed. Just saying.

and as Zant bitterly explains, the Twili lost their ambitions and desires and became content and, if Midna is to be believed, happy. The Twilight is dark, but it is beautiful.

That is stated, but from my observations the guys there seem to be almost like vegetables. Kind of like both Midna and Zant had a point to some extent. The Twilight Realm doesn't seem like much of a place for second chances.

Because they'd die out and/or would mess up the seal on Hyrule by going down there.

They're fish people. While the Great Sea might not be teeming with life, the Zora should have no problem living there. Also, since the whole world was basically flooded, the Zora going down into the old world would arguably be an issue wherever they were.

It's not a replica, it's the same exact instrument.

I probably should have chosen my words more carefully when talking about the harp. There's the whole phantom harp angle, though I'm not sure who'd ascend a mountain to retrieve the thing from the Earth Temple during Ganon's invasion or right after the flood.

Uh...durr...for the young Rito that don't have wings yet?

That doesn't seem to be an overall issue to the Rito. There are parts of Dragon Roost Cavern a regular Rito kid would arguably not be able to reach anyway going from the game, and a grappling hook is not even needed to reach Valoo to get wings. Also, the only grappling hook Link finds is referred to as an outdated object from the past.

The environment wouldn't allow them to thrive because there's little fish to eat (which is the sustenance of the Zoras), it's full of predaratory monsters,

Again, Outset seems to be a fishing village of sorts and it manages to get along, not to mention that fishing should arguably be easier for a group of people who are themselves fish.

and it's salt water when the Hyrulian Zora are fresh water amphibians.

Looking more deeply into Majora's Mask, it appears that there is no problem with a Terminian Zora entering fresh water. With that in mind, there's not much of a reason to believe that Hyrulian Zoras are doomed in salt water.

If the Goddesses were going to magically change them to suit their environment, why not just make them salt water fish and alter their densities so they can't tolerate the deeper water near Hyrule?

Zora don't seem to have any problem with water types to begin with, and altering their densities would probably screw them up as a whole.

Medli was chosen solely because she had the instrument, which she received from Komali's grandmother.

Didn't Medli say that she already had the instrument before she was chosen?

For me, this instrument is an instrument of fate.

I was seen with it, was told to stop, and was advanced to my current position of attendant.

Komali-sama’s grandmother was my master.

That’s why, for my master’s sake, I need to quickly grow to adulthood and be of use to everyone.

Indeed, Laruto's hint was "Find the one with this instrument of fate."

Technically speaking, that person was Medli, so there wouldn't really need to be any deeper clue than that at the time.

Edited by Average Gamer, 02 May 2009 - 03:09 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

If you're basing that off of Majora's Mask, Zora Link can leap into fresh water without any repercussions. There don't seem to be fresh water and salt water Zoras?just Zoras.

Oracles.

The cutscenes where Zant meets Ganon and where Zant curses Midna show that the Twilight Realm itself was pretty much the same before TP, and even after the Sols free the Twili they appear to be too messed up in general to properly acknowledge Link. The dude's practically an alien to them and they don't even say a word to him.

We don't see any other Twili in those cutscenes. The only time we see Twili is when they were freshly released from a horrible spell that probably did some brain-scrambling; they're suffering after-shock, and remain as such due to gameplay and story segregation. Plus, they don't speak his language either way.

Judging from the whole invasion thing and the Lanayru cutscene, I'd say that there was a bit more than greed that led to them being sealed. Just saying.

The whole story was an Aesop about greed and lust for power and how it ultimately corrupts. Though what the Twili did was horrible, it was caused by greed.

That is stated, but from my observations the guys there seem to be almost like vegetables. Kind of like both Midna and Zant had a point to some extent. The Twilight Realm doesn't seem like much of a place for second chances.

Neither Zant or Midna act like vegetables. You could make a case for Midna being special, but Zant wasn't royalty, and he's anatomically the same as the rest of his kind. The Twili you're talking about were just freed from a spell that warped their minds, and there's this weird alien running around with the source of life for their world, which they apparently link to their guardian deities, and they moan in awe and try not to talk to him. They probably think Link is some sort of demigod or something.

They're fish people. While the Great Sea might not be teeming with life, the Zora should have no problem living there. Also, since the whole world was basically flooded, the Zora going down into the old world would arguably be an issue wherever they were.

Just because you live in water doesn't mean there's enough to eat, and not all water is equally habitable. Also, only Hyrule was magically preserved.

Zora don't seem to have any problem with water types to begin with, and altering their densities would probably screw them up as a whole.

Densities was probably the wrong word, but English isn't my best language. Different fish can only live at different sea levels due to water pressure. If they aren't already, the Goddesses could easilymake it so the Zora can't go that deep to mess with Hyrule. Problem solved.

Didn't Medli say that she already had the instrument before she was chosen?

I'm pretty sure that Komali's grandmother had it at some point, even if Medli did end up having it herself.

[Average Gamer]

Oracles.

Provide the quote please. Also, if it's that "We sea Zoras aren't like those savage river Zoras" quote, he might just be using their locations to further differentiate, not to actually say that they can't live in a certain kind of water. It'd be like someone from the North criticizing someone from the South.

We don't see any other Twili in those cutscenes.

We do see the realm though, and it's pretty much the same.

The only time we see Twili is when they were freshly released from a horrible spell that probably did some brain-scrambling; they're suffering after-shock, and remain as such due to gameplay and story segregation.

The story seems to suggest that they're pretty much fine after the Sols free them, not to mention that at various other points in the series characters didn't have any spell "after-shock".

Plus, they don't speak his language either way.

Midna and Zant have no problem with Hylian, so the Twili might have never even lost the language. Also, even if Link can't understand them, that didn't stop Valoo and Jabun.

The whole story was an Aesop about greed and lust for power and how it ultimately corrupts. Though what the Twili did was horrible, it was caused by greed.

I acknowledge that greed was involved, but I'm just saying that the gods probably cared more about the whole "wage war on everyone while using dark magic" thing.

Neither Zant or Midna act like vegetables.

The rest of the population apparently did though, not to mention that the Twilight Realm seems to have greatly disfigured them in general. They're rather disproportionate as well.

You could make a case for Midna being special, but Zant wasn't royalty, and he's anatomically the same as the rest of his kind.

Well, he was an Onmyoji, though that was arguably a position he had to work up to from scratch. However, he isn't the same as the other Twili. He has some individuality.

The Twili you're talking about were just freed from a spell that warped their minds,

To nitpick, the spell wasn't complete, but it's basically true. However, no other character has been in any real shell-shock after being freed from a spell. The closest is Darbus, and he just had amnesia.

and there's this weird alien running around with the source of life for their world, which they apparently link to their guardian deities, and they moan in awe and try not to talk to him. They probably think Link is some sort of demigod or something.

Maybe, but considering that some totally random guy is running around wily-nilly with their priceless artifacts you'd think that they'd either try to stop him from stealing them or at least ask him what was happening. The way they have basically no reaction and don't even respond to Link unless he's right in their faces leads me to believe that the Twilight Realm messed them up to some degree.

Just because you live in water doesn't mean there's enough to eat, and not all water is equally habitable.

People who are forced to live on the surface can apparently make a living off of the fish in the Great Sea, so people who are adept at living in water should at the very least be able to make a living as well. They'd be able to hunt fish in ways that other people couldn't.

Also, only Hyrule was magically preserved.

Was it ever confirmed that it was just Hyrule the land which was preserved or Hyrule the world?

Densities was probably the wrong word, but English isn't my best language. Different fish can only live at different sea levels due to water pressure. If they aren't already, the Goddesses could easilymake it so the Zora can't go that deep to mess with Hyrule. Problem solved.

Yet altering a creature's density would effectively mess them up entirely. Also, one could say that turning the Zora into the Rito would prevent them from going down into Hyrule as well.

I'm pretty sure that Komali's grandmother had it at some point, even if Medli did end up having it herself.

However, in the quote I posted it seems to imply that Medli was chosen as an attendant in the first place because she just so happened to be seen with the harp, at which point Komali's grandmother became her mentor.

Anyway, this is straying pretty far from the whole Divine Prank issue, so I'll end it here.

Edited by Average Gamer, 02 May 2009 - 08:54 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Provide the quote please. Also, if it's that "We sea Zoras aren't like those savage river Zoras" quote, he might just be using their locations to further differentiate, not to actually say that they can't live in a certain kind of water. It'd be like someone from the North criticizing someone from the South.

The Japanese says "Sea water, savage river water" etc, and implies that they're physiologically different.

We do see the realm though, and it's pretty much the same.

Yea, so? Who cares about the realm? No one at any point claims it was different.

The story seems to suggest that they're pretty much fine after the Sols free them, not to mention that at various other points in the series characters didn't have any spell "after-shock".

At no other point do we free the Dark creatures, so that's a moot argument.

Midna and Zant have no problem with Hylian, so the Twili might have never even lost the language. Also, even if Link can't understand them, that didn't stop Valoo and Jabun.

You argued earlier that Zant and Midna were some sort of exception; make up your mind. Either all Twili are mindless vegetables, or they simply don't speak Link's language.

The rest of the population apparently did though, not to mention that the Twilight Realm seems to have greatly disfigured them in general. They're rather disproportionate as well.

The lack of proportion could just be how their species is. There's really no reason to assume there's anything wrong with the mental faculty of the Twili.

I acknowledge that greed was involved, but I'm just saying that the gods probably cared more about the whole "wage war on everyone while using dark magic" thing.

I'd list that sin as "greed" instead of "EVIL" either way, though. The means don't change the intent of the crime, and if the Twili were really so evil, the Goddesses probably wouldn't of left a failsafe to let them out.

Maybe, but considering that some totally random guy is running around wily-nilly with their priceless artifacts you'd think that they'd either try to stop him from stealing them or at least ask him what was happening. The way they have basically no reaction and don't even respond to Link unless he's right in their faces leads me to believe that the Twilight Realm messed them up to some degree.

According to Midna, the mere fact that he's carrying it around is proof that their guardian deities is on his side. Therefore, he's here to save them. Simple.

People who are forced to live on the surface can apparently make a living off of the fish in the Great Sea, so people who are adept at living in water should at the very least be able to make a living as well. They'd be able to hunt fish in ways that other people couldn't.

Fish isn't the only source of food for the people of Outset and other human populations, either. They apparently also need to eat vegetation and other animals like pigs. This probably means that fish isn't enough to support them entirely, so that means the Zora, who live on an exclusive fish diet and thus would need to eat a lot more fish, probably wouldn't be able to do much either. Not to mention their hunting in such a scarce environment might push a bunch of fish species to extinction.

Was it ever confirmed that it was just Hyrule the land which was preserved or Hyrule the world?

Hyrule the kingdom.

Yet altering a creature's density would effectively mess them up entirely. Also, one could say that turning the Zora into the Rito would prevent them from going down into Hyrule as well.

It wouldn't mess them up nearly as much as you'd think. Fish species change their body densities so they can live at different sea levels all the time with adaptation and, dare I say it, evolution.

However, in the quote I posted it seems to imply that Medli was chosen as an attendant in the first place because she just so happened to be seen with the harp, at which point Komali's grandmother became her mentor.

We never learn the context of the time she was found. For all we know, she wandered into a shrine and started messing with the harp, wherein Komali's grandmother divined that it chose her or somesuch.

[Showsni]

This is pretty much a pointless argument. We've got no way of knowing whether the Zora did become the Rito or not, and not enough evidence to prove it conclusively one way or the other. It might even be that Nintendo had to cahnge their original plan due to time constraints, which leaves us totally in the dark as to what really happened. When we're reduced to arguing whether sufficient food was available you know it's hopeless - have you seen anyone on Outset Island eating anything?

[Ize]

Yeah, and this post was about the divine prank thing. I have a couple of things to say about that but it seems there's a different debate going on, so maybe we should get back on track or create a new thread or something.

[Crimson Lego]

This is pretty much a pointless argument. We've got no way of knowing whether the Zora did become the Rito or not, and not enough evidence to prove it conclusively one way or the other. It might even be that Nintendo had to cahnge their original plan due to time constraints, which leaves us totally in the dark as to what really happened. When we're reduced to arguing whether sufficient food was available you know it's hopeless - have you seen anyone on Outset Island eating anything?

Maybe when Link isn't there, but that's pretty unlikely.


Yeah, we better get back on topic.

[Ize]

Ok, getting back on track...

About the whole "divine prank" thing, I made a thread about it a billion years ago, but I'll sorta rewrite it here, since it's my version of the events and all:

I believe that, at the beggining, the godesses created two dimensions: The world of Hyrule (the "normal world") and the sacred realm. These may not be different universes (since they are similar in ALttP) and maybe other universes were indeed created, like the wilight realm and all, but I believe we have Hyrule and the sacred realm as two sides of the same coin. These two dimensions are parallel, and the time passes for both, they kind of run simultaneously:

------HYRULE-------------->

----SACRED REALM------>

But then Zelda comes and sends Link to the past at the end of OoT, thus creating two timelines.
These two timelines are actually two dimensions, exact in geography, yet different in history. So now we have something like this:

-------HYRULE (Child timeline)------->

------------SACRED REALM---------->

--------HYRULE (adult timeline)------>

Notice the sacred realm is still one dimension of it's own. The triforce is an artifact closely linked to the sacred realm, so in this model of reality, THERE IS ONLY INE TRIFORCE FOR BOTH TIMELINES.

So, the way I see things just as Ganondorf (child version) was being executed, Ganondorf (adult version) was claiming the triforce of power. Since the triforce of power is "assigned" to Ganondorf, it also empowered the Ganondorf at arbiter's grounds (so tecnically, the characters from TP do not have the physical triforce piece, only the "echo" of it's power that comes from the triforces of their counterparts). The universe simply gave a triforce piece to each of three owners, since there are two sets of owners, those who belong to the dimension that "claimed it" have the actual solid piece and the power it conveys, while the others only get the power.

Then, time passes, the triforce is still on the adult timeline/dimension and WW occurs. The triforce is reunited and returned to the sacred realm (maybe WW's ending was happening parallel to TP's ending, and since the triforce left WW Ganondorf, it also "fades away" from TP Ganondorf's hand, but thats is even MORE speculation). WW's Hyrule is destroyed and everything, and now we have the triforce in the sacred realm, waiting to be claimed by Ganondorf from the child timeline during the IW.

This explanation solves the state of the triforce between TP and ALttP, as well as giving some explanation to the divine prank. I knwo that it's simpler to say "god did it" (and maybe that's Nintendo's versions) but I kinda like this little hypothesis I came up with. So there.

[SOAP]

Ok, getting back on track...

About the whole "divine prank" thing, I made a thread about it a billion years ago, but I'll sorta rewrite it here, since it's my version of the events and all:

I believe that, at the beggining, the godesses created two dimensions: The world of Hyrule (the "normal world") and the sacred realm. These may not be different universes (since they are similar in ALttP) and maybe other universes were indeed created, like the wilight realm and all, but I believe we have Hyrule and the sacred realm as two sides of the same coin. These two dimensions are parallel, and the time passes for both, they kind of run simultaneously:

------HYRULE-------------->

----SACRED REALM------>

But then Zelda comes and sends Link to the past at the end of OoT, thus creating two timelines.
These two timelines are actually two dimensions, exact in geography, yet different in history. So now we have something like this:

-------HYRULE (Child timeline)------->

------------SACRED REALM---------->

--------HYRULE (adult timeline)------>

Notice the sacred realm is still one dimension of it's own. The triforce is an artifact closely linked to the sacred realm, so in this model of reality, THERE IS ONLY INE TRIFORCE FOR BOTH TIMELINES.

So, the way I see things just as Ganondorf (child version) was being executed, Ganondorf (adult version) was claiming the triforce of power. Since the triforce of power is "assigned" to Ganondorf, it also empowered the Ganondorf at arbiter's grounds (so tecnically, the characters from TP do not have the physical triforce piece, only the "echo" of it's power that comes from the triforces of their counterparts). The universe simply gave a triforce piece to each of three owners, since there are two sets of owners, those who belong to the dimension that "claimed it" have the actual solid piece and the power it conveys, while the others only get the power.

Then, time passes, the triforce is still on the adult timeline/dimension and WW occurs. The triforce is reunited and returned to the sacred realm (maybe WW's ending was happening parallel to TP's ending, and since the triforce left WW Ganondorf, it also "fades away" from TP Ganondorf's hand, but thats is even MORE speculation). WW's Hyrule is destroyed and everything, and now we have the triforce in the sacred realm, waiting to be claimed by Ganondorf from the child timeline during the IW.

This explanation solves the state of the triforce between TP and ALttP, as well as giving some explanation to the divine prank. I knwo that it's simpler to say "god did it" (and maybe that's Nintendo's versions) but I kinda like this little hypothesis I came up with. So there.

When I first heard a simmilar theory around the time TP was still pretty new, I didn't like it then. But now I may reconsider. It actually makes sense, even though I still believe that the Sacred Realm split with everything else and the child timeline has it's own set of the Triforce. I wonder, could your theory explain why the the ToC was shattered in the the adult timeline?

Also, even though we just got back on topic, I just want to add that people take Zelda's dream in TWW too literally. There's absolutely no indication that the people of the Great Sea are having difficulties catching enough fish to sustain their lives. Ganon's lines about "Oceans... Oceans...Oceans as far as the eye can see. They are vast seas. None can swim across them... They yield no fish to catch..." are metaphorical and perhaps ironic. Like the line "Water, water everywhere. And not a drop to drink." The people of the Graet Sea have quite happy lives along the Great Sea but all Zelda's draem indicates is that the current way of life could not sustain them forever and that it was pathetic compared to the lives their ancestors had before Hyrule was flooded.

[Average Gamer]

Also, even though we just got back on topic, I just want to add that people take Zelda's dream in TWW too literally. There's absolutely no indication that the people of the Great Sea are having difficulties catching enough fish to sustain their lives. Ganon's lines about "Oceans... Oceans...Oceans as far as the eye can see. They are vast seas. None can swim across them... They yield no fish to catch..." are metaphorical and perhaps ironic. Like the line "Water, water everywhere. And not a drop to drink." The people of the Graet Sea have quite happy lives along the Great Sea but all Zelda's draem indicates is that the current way of life could not sustain them forever and that it was pathetic compared to the lives their ancestors had before Hyrule was flooded.

In addition to some of the things you mentioned, consider who's talking. Ganondorf hates the Great Sea, and after his whole "Oceans x 4" comment he might have just been expressing his own opinions and not talking about Tetra's dreams. If anything, Tetra loves the Great Sea.

Edited by Average Gamer, 07 May 2009 - 04:15 AM.

[SOAP]

Also, even though we just got back on topic, I just want to add that people take Zelda's dream in TWW too literally. There's absolutely no indication that the people of the Great Sea are having difficulties catching enough fish to sustain their lives. Ganon's lines about "Oceans... Oceans...Oceans as far as the eye can see. They are vast seas. None can swim across them... They yield no fish to catch..." are metaphorical and perhaps ironic. Like the line "Water, water everywhere. And not a drop to drink." The people of the Graet Sea have quite happy lives along the Great Sea but all Zelda's draem indicates is that the current way of life could not sustain them forever and that it was pathetic compared to the lives their ancestors had before Hyrule was flooded.

In addition to some of the things you mentioned, consider who's talking. Ganondorf hates the Great Sea, and after his whole "Oceans x 4" comment he might have just been expressing his own opinions and not talking about Tetra's dreams. If anything, Tetra loves the Great Sea.

That too. All I mean is that it's not very literal. Both Outset and Windfall for example seem prosperous enough.

Edited by SOAP, 07 May 2009 - 04:39 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Ok, getting back on track...

About the whole "divine prank" thing, I made a thread about it a billion years ago, but I'll sorta rewrite it here, since it's my version of the events and all:

I believe that, at the beggining, the godesses created two dimensions: The world of Hyrule (the "normal world") and the sacred realm. These may not be different universes (since they are similar in ALttP) and maybe other universes were indeed created, like the wilight realm and all, but I believe we have Hyrule and the sacred realm as two sides of the same coin. These two dimensions are parallel, and the time passes for both, they kind of run simultaneously:

------HYRULE-------------->

----SACRED REALM------>

But then Zelda comes and sends Link to the past at the end of OoT, thus creating two timelines.
These two timelines are actually two dimensions, exact in geography, yet different in history. So now we have something like this:

-------HYRULE (Child timeline)------->

------------SACRED REALM---------->

--------HYRULE (adult timeline)------>

Notice the sacred realm is still one dimension of it's own. The triforce is an artifact closely linked to the sacred realm, so in this model of reality, THERE IS ONLY INE TRIFORCE FOR BOTH TIMELINES.

So, the way I see things just as Ganondorf (child version) was being executed, Ganondorf (adult version) was claiming the triforce of power. Since the triforce of power is "assigned" to Ganondorf, it also empowered the Ganondorf at arbiter's grounds (so tecnically, the characters from TP do not have the physical triforce piece, only the "echo" of it's power that comes from the triforces of their counterparts). The universe simply gave a triforce piece to each of three owners, since there are two sets of owners, those who belong to the dimension that "claimed it" have the actual solid piece and the power it conveys, while the others only get the power.

Then, time passes, the triforce is still on the adult timeline/dimension and WW occurs. The triforce is reunited and returned to the sacred realm (maybe WW's ending was happening parallel to TP's ending, and since the triforce left WW Ganondorf, it also "fades away" from TP Ganondorf's hand, but thats is even MORE speculation). WW's Hyrule is destroyed and everything, and now we have the triforce in the sacred realm, waiting to be claimed by Ganondorf from the child timeline during the IW.

This explanation solves the state of the triforce between TP and ALttP, as well as giving some explanation to the divine prank. I knwo that it's simpler to say "god did it" (and maybe that's Nintendo's versions) but I kinda like this little hypothesis I came up with. So there.

I've already explained why your "Single Sacred Realm/Triforce" theory is impossible and doesn't work with established facts. I'm not going to rewrite the whole thing, but putting it simply, there's a Sacred Realm for every Hyrule, since the two are the same world on two different planes. Case in point, LTTP.

[Ize]

Wow. You did? I'll go back and read it, maybe it destroys my theory. I don't think the triforce should be split, since it's sort of a godly artifact. It carries the essence of the gods, and we don't believe there are two sets of gods for each timeline.

OK, just went back and read your explanation back at the old thread, and you just said that the sacred realm is a reflection of Hyrule, so wen you have two hyrules, yo MUST have two sacred realms. I understand why that would make sense inmediately, but I think of the whole thing as a "cosmic Oreo cookie". The cookie sides are the two hyrules, while the cream in the middle is the sacred realm. That way the sacred realm is still a reflection of both Hyrules (since both should be exatcly the same geographically). Of course I don't think dmensions could physically resemble an oreo but that kind of abstract image serves my explanation. That is why I made my little drawing like this:

------HYRULE (Child timeline)------->

------------SACRED REALM---------->

--------HYRULE (adult timeline)------>

Whith the sacred realm sandwiched in the middle.
It's still the same land, the only changes are in terms of hystory, not in terms of natural laws or geography, for example.
Also, when King Daphnes touches the triforce, he wishes to erase Hyrule entirely, so maybe that dimension gets completely separated from the cookie and we can have the dark realm we see in ALttP. And about the ToC shattering, I think WW explains it quite well: Link went away from that timeline and hence the triforce got left behind.

Edited by Ize, 08 May 2009 - 01:31 AM.

[SOAP]

And about the ToC shattering, I think WW explains it quite well: Link went away from that timeline and hence the triforce got left behind.

Yes, but if there's only one Triforce for both timelines, hsouldn't the ToC be shattered in the Child Timeline as well? We're never given that impression, especially considering TP is supposedly pararallel to TWW and TP Link as the ToC from the start (or at least it's power according to your theory).

[MikePetersSucks]

Wow. You did? I'll go back and read it, maybe it destroys my theory. I don't think the triforce should be split, since it's sort of a godly artifact. It carries the essence of the gods, and we don't believe there are two sets of gods for each timeline.

Gods, and thus their essence, can be in two places at once, though, can't they? Besides, it wasn't the physical existence of the Triforce and Hyrule that's being split, it's their time. That's completely different, as no new matter/energy/whatever is being created or split apart.

OK, just went back and read your explanation back at the old thread, and you just said that the sacred realm is a reflection of Hyrule, so wen you have two hyrules, yo MUST have two sacred realms. I understand why that would make sense inmediately, but I think of the whole thing as a "cosmic Oreo cookie". The cookie sides are the two hyrules, while the cream in the middle is the sacred realm. That way the sacred realm is still a reflection of both Hyrules (since both should be exatcly the same geographically). Of course I don't think dmensions could physically resemble an oreo but that kind of abstract image serves my explanation.

That still doesn't work. What happens in the Sacred Realm happens in Hyrule, and vice versa. For example, the emptying of a lake will have an effect in both worlds. How does this work with Two Hyrules and one Sacred Realm? You'd have a flood in one Hyrule, so there'd be some sort of equivalent of a flood in the Sacred Realm. But because there's a Flood in the Sacred Realm, guess what happens to the Hyrule on the other side?

It's still the same land, the only changes are in terms of hystory, not in terms of natural laws or geography, for example.
Also, when King Daphnes touches the triforce, he wishes to erase Hyrule entirely, so maybe that dimension gets completely separated from the cookie and we can have the dark realm we see in ALttP.

The Triforce governs the universe from the Sacred Realm. If you cut off that connection, the TWW timeline would fall into chaos and possibly cease existing. It doesn't counter that, until Daphnes makes this wish, TP-era Hyrule (TWW's counterpart) should be submerged.

And about the ToC shattering, I think WW explains it quite well: Link went away from that timeline and hence the triforce got left behind.

Then the Triforce of Courage should be shattered in the Child Timeline too.