278 replies to this topic

[MikePetersSucks]

Ok, obliviously I used a bad choice of words to get my point across. My point being I just get the feeling that it cheapens the idea of the Triforce to say that two different timelines exist and each one has its own Triforce. Again, my personal feelings against the split timeline theory. Or are we suggesting there is one Triforce and it exist in both timelines? And I guess I am not clear on your point about why the timelines can't interact with each other or why one would be doomed?

The Triforce could be just one Triforce interacting in two different timelines, or it could be "two" because there's two of everything else. The timelines can't interact because they were split from each other. Traveling to other worlds is one thing, but all of those worlds are in ONE Timeline. You usually can't cross over. And the Triforce is the foundation and providence of the world. The Goddesses basically left it behind to keep their creation together. The power to use it to wish for things is derived from the fact that the Triforce is basically the "program" that keeps the system/universe running. Without the Triforce, you can't have a world.

http://tvtropes.org/.../CosmicKeystone the Triforce is one of these.

Anyway, even ignoring all that, you can't just ignore something like the Split Timeline just because you personally dislike the consequences. There's evidence for it, and it's official; now one of the few timeline facts we have. You can't just ignore that because the idea of the Triforce having two different locations/incarnations displeases you.

The Sacred Realm is timeless, and thus the Triforce, or at least its magical properties, may be as well.

No it's not. Link was sealed inside the Sacred Realm for seven years, and he AGED SEVEN YEARS. Not to mention that if it was timeless, there could be no cause and effect; IE no events could happen inside it. But not only is that not the case, but time and space in the Sacred Realm matches up with Hyrule, as proven in LTTP. This timeless bullshit is a load of bunk invented by Lex and there's no evidence for it anywhere in any game.

So there's two timelines, and one Sacred Realm for both of them.

No.

but OoT specifically states that the Sacred Realm is timeless.

[citation needed]

ALttP is a sequel to OoT and lies in the AT.

Impossible. For one thing, TP leads into LTTP and Hyrule was...you know, destroyed in TWW.

Not to mention the fact that the Deku Tree is actively trying to reverse the flood in TWW through the use of trees.

Actually, he said he was going to connect the islands and make a new lands. This doesn't require undoing the flood, and the new continent wouldn't be Hyrule anyway. King Daphnes basically wished for the destruction of Hyrule, and nothing but another wish of the Triforce or an act of the Goddesses can undo that.

[provehito]

Maybe you're right. I'm a bit rusty one everything since I haven't messed with timeline stuff in well over a year. I remember hearing that the Sacred Realm was timeless at one point, and I thought it was in one of the games. Might not have been. But don't blame Lex, whoever he is.

However, I fail to see how the Triforce would have split in the CT if it had never been touched in that timeline. It seems to me that the actions in the AT in regards to the Triforce carried over into the CT somehow. Wouldn't it be easier to assume that the state of the Triforce, mainly its bearers, are consistent across timelines instead of thinking "Well, it just appeared."

[Impossible]

I think the "Sacred Realm is timeless" bullshit is one of those stupid things made up by idiots (who apparently didn't notice Link aging in OoT) trying to support a single timeline. These people thought the Legend of the Fairy was actually important, or even could theoretically be part of the story or canon in any way, so I wouldn't put much (or any) faith in them. (Even now, except for those who have learned and have better principles.)

[provehito]

Well, I have forever been a supporter of the dual-timeline theory, even when a majority weren't. I picked up on it pretty naturally in TWW. I thought it was about as obvious as you could get.

However, my thought on the idea that the Sacred Realm is timeless was that it justified why its state in the AT mirrors its state in the CT, at least at the moment of the split. Otherwise we have no reason to believe how or why Ganondorf would have gotten it in the CT, other than just some random occurrence. What was a "divine prank" to the Sages was actually just a result of the Hero of Time's actions.

I believe a body that enters it, like Link's, would still age though. I use the term "timeless" perhaps incorrectly, because I view it as separate from the Light World/Realm of Hyrule, and thus independent of whatever time-split manipulations there. I saw the split in the timelines as completely independent of the Sacred Realm because it wasn't a part of Hyrule, which is where the split happened.

...does that make sense? It's not that I think time doesn't exist in the Sacred Realm, but that it has its own timeline that is separate from Hyrule's timeline, well now timelines.

Edited by provehito, 13 April 2009 - 08:15 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Maybe you're right. I'm a bit rusty one everything since I haven't messed with timeline stuff in well over a year. I remember hearing that the Sacred Realm was timeless at one point, and I thought it was in one of the games. Might not have been. But don't blame Lex, whoever he is.

Lex invented the Timeless Sacred Realm hypothesis.

However, I fail to see how the Triforce would have split in the CT if it had never been touched in that timeline. It seems to me that the actions in the AT in regards to the Triforce carried over into the CT somehow. Wouldn't it be easier to assume that the state of the Triforce, mainly its bearers, are consistent across timelines instead of thinking "Well, it just appeared."

Link returns to the past with the Triforce of Courage. Perhaps he retained his "worthiness", having already earned it from his perception of time, so the Triforce split for his sake when he closed the door of time for good. Besides, the Triforce isn't consistent across timelines; according to the developers, TWW and TP are parallels, which is problematic if we're supposed to assume TP Link is congruent to the shattered Triforce of Courage.

I use the term "timeless" perhaps incorrectly, because I view it as separate from the Light World/Realm of Hyrule, and thus independent of whatever time-split manipulations there. I saw the split in the timelines as completely independent of the Sacred Realm because it wasn't a part of Hyrule, which is where the split happened.

Unfortunately that's wrong. Hyrule and the Sacred Realm are two halves of the same whole, connected and causally affecting one another. Indeed, the Sacred Realm is the part of Hyrule where the Goddesses touched ground and left the Triforce, and it is compared to being a Mirror of Hyrule, and in Japanese translations, as it's "soul."

[provehito]

Well, in terms of why the Triforce wouldn't be consistent between timelines, I did say it explains why it would be consistent at the split, and consistent in regards to its bearers. That was all I was implying was consistent, as I know parallel games aren't.

But I was just under the impression that the Sacred Realm was separate from Hyrule, even if it was correlated with it. If that's canon then, I really don't have any clue. It's just a plothole then as to why the Triforce would be split in the CT.

[MikePetersSucks]

Not really. Link opened the Sacred Realm and entered it, for however briefly, and from Link's own personal timeline (his experiments back and forth as we see them), he "already" has the Triforce.

[provehito]

Not really. Link opened the Sacred Realm and entered it, for however briefly, and from Link's own personal timeline (his experiments back and forth as we see them), he "already" has the Triforce.

He doesn't have the ToC when he becomes a kid again. During the ending of OoT, as a child, he no longer has the mark.

And he never opens the Sacred Realm in the new timeline, I don't think. I believe he closed the Door of Time and put the Master Sword back in its pedestal in the AT, and then Zelda used her magic to send him back to before the moment he ever pulled the Master Sword from the pedestal to begin with. That was the point of sending him back, to make it so he lives in a world where he never made that mistake in the first place. The Triforce in the CT should have still been in the Sacred Realm.

Still, either way, he doesn't have the ToC at the end of OoT, so I don't see a reason to believe Zelda and Ganon would have their pieces at that point.

Edited by provehito, 14 April 2009 - 12:59 PM.

[Arturo]

Ahem.

[provehito]

I could have swore he didn't have it at the end. Guess I am wrong there. I need to replay OoT. I just read something recently, too, that said he didn't have the ToC on his hand at the end. So, Link goes back in time, and the AT ToC gets shattered into eight pieces as shown in TWW, but then he inherits the other ToC in the CT?

I guess that could work. Kinda tragic though, really. Link and Zelda inadvertently aid Ganon in taking over Hyrule in the AT, have to fix that, and then Zelda sends Link to live a life without Ganon only to inadvertently make his life easier by literally handing him the ToP in the CT.

Curious, did he have the mark in MM before he left for Termina?

Edited by provehito, 14 April 2009 - 02:10 PM.

[Arturo]

He didn't.

[Fin]

Actually, he doesn't have the mark in some copies. I know for a fact the mark is absent on mine. It was removed for some reason in some copies of the game (I think it was some European versions or something like that. I read the reason for this somewhere but I can't remember it)

Anyway, him having the ToC at the end is the OoT canon regardless, I just wanted to say that. >_>

[provehito]

Well, if he didn't have the mark in later copies, and still didn't have the mark in MM, wouldn't that make it a retcon?

And I didn't have a European version, but I'm pretty sure that he didn't have the mark in that scene for me.

[Fin]

Well, I can't remember the details of the removal. I thought it was only done to certain European copies, which wouldn't count for shit for the Japanese canon. But I could be wrong.

Although I specified it being OoT canon because I don't believe it to be timeline canon. I think it was retconned by WW and TP... but I don't really want to get into all that right now. >_>

[Arturo]

Well, if he didn't have the mark in later copies, and still didn't have the mark in MM, wouldn't that make it a retcon?

And I didn't have a European version, but I'm pretty sure that he didn't have the mark in that scene for me.

Well, I have an European grey cartridge (green blood and all that jazz), and Link had the ToC. I think you just overlooked it, because it's not easy to see (I didn't see it until I knew it was there).

[MikePetersSucks]

The mark probably would've faded when he left the presence of the other Triforce bearers, so it's absence in MM means nothing.

[provehito]

The mark probably would've faded when he left the presence of the other Triforce bearers, so it's absence in MM means nothing.

That's pretty much conjecture there. I would assume it would still be on his hand when he's in the Lost Woods at the beginning of MM if he was still the bearer in the CT. However, I don't think the mark would be present when he leaves Hyrule, as he's entering a world where it really doesn't exist. Just as how it shattered when he left the AT, it probably wouldn't follow him into Termina.

Plus we see the mark on Link's hand in other games where he isn't around the other Triforce bearers.

Edited by provehito, 15 April 2009 - 07:16 AM.

[Arturo]

The mark probably would've faded when he left the presence of the other Triforce bearers, so it's absence in MM means nothing.

That's pretty much conjecture there. I would assume it would still be on his hand when he's in the Lost Woods at the beginning of MM if he was still the bearer in the CT. However, I don't think the mark would be present when he leaves Hyrule, as he's entering a world where it really doesn't exist. Just as how it shattered when he left the AT, it probably wouldn't follow him into Termina.

Plus we see the mark on Link's hand in other games where he isn't around the other Triforce bearers.

But we don't in OoT and TWW. Link's ToC isn't shown until he meets Ganondorf and Zelda up in Ganon's Tower in both games, and in OoT it fades soon after. So its absence proves nothing.

[Impossible]

Its presence proves nothing if we take TWW and TP as retcons of the Triforce's circumstances and splitting. And I really don't think the point could have been to see the ToC "resonating", because it's just not there at all on Zelda. I still think it was symbolic, and meant to distinguish that meeting from their previous one.

[provehito]

But we don't in OoT and TWW. Link's ToC isn't shown until he meets Ganondorf and Zelda up in Ganon's Tower in both games, and in OoT it fades soon after. So its absence proves nothing.

In OoT, Link has gloves on during the AT, so you only see the Triforce when it resonates, which is when he's in Ganon's Tower. At least if I'm remembering it correctly. He likely at least had the mark, like how TP Link has the mark but you don't always see it since he has the gloves on. It only shows through when it's glowing/resonating, which isn't a constant thing.

And in TWW, there's only a small portion of the game where he actually has the ToC, correct? The first major event after he gets the Master Sword and the ToC is Ganon's Tower. Canonically, that's pretty much the only time he had ToC in that game. I'd wager the fact it doesn't appear elsewhere is because they didn't feel like replacing his model in-game for such a short period of time.

Its presence proves nothing if we take TWW and TP as retcons of the Triforce's circumstances and splitting. And I really don't think the point could have been to see the ToC "resonating", because it's just not there at all on Zelda. I still think it was symbolic, and meant to distinguish that meeting from their previous one.

What is the TP retcon? I am curious. You can lay it out in general terms if you want, haha.

[MikePetersSucks]

However, I don't think the mark would be present when he leaves Hyrule, as he's entering a world where it really doesn't exist.

Yea, except Link had the Triforce of Courage. Did it cease existing when he went to Termina?

This, like the timeless Sacred Realm idea, is stupid. Though the Sacred Realm is only accessible through Hyrule, it's ludicrous to think a divine entity like the Triforce isn't capable of dimensional travel.

And I really don't think the point could have been to see the ToC "resonating", because it's just not there at all on Zelda.

IMO, it was resonating since he recently acquired it, like TWW Link.

In OoT, Link has gloves on during the AT, so you only see the Triforce when it resonates, which is when he's in Ganon's Tower. At least if I'm remembering it correctly. He likely at least had the mark, like how TP Link has the mark but you don't always see it since he has the gloves on. It only shows through when it's glowing/resonating, which isn't a constant thing.

For all we know, TP can be slightly different, as Link and Zelda seemed to be born with their pieces.

And in TWW, there's only a small portion of the game where he actually has the ToC, correct? The first major event after he gets the Master Sword and the ToC is Ganon's Tower. Canonically, that's pretty much the only time he had ToC in that game. I'd wager the fact it doesn't appear elsewhere is because they didn't feel like replacing his model in-game for such a short period of time.

If you're going to use that excuse, then the only reason Link doesn't have the mark in MM is because they didn't want to change the model. MM is one big ass copypasta of OOT, and the Triforce mark in the ending was actually something they placed under Zelda's Garden and is never actually a part of Link's model at any time.

What is the TP retcon? I am curious. You can lay it out in general terms if you want, haha.

I assume he's speaking about how the Triforce subtly altered in how it behaves in TP.

[Arturo]

However, I don't think the mark would be present when he leaves Hyrule, as he's entering a world where it really doesn't exist.

Yea, except Link had the Triforce of Courage. Did it cease existing when he went to Termina?

TWW established that the Triforce cannot leave Hyrule, so when Link went to Termina, it wasn't with him anymore.

[provehito]

Yea, except Link had the Triforce of Courage. Did it cease existing when he went to Termina?

This, like the timeless Sacred Realm idea, is stupid. Though the Sacred Realm is only accessible through Hyrule, it's ludicrous to think a divine entity like the Triforce isn't capable of dimensional travel.

The ToC can't leave Hyrule. That's why it didn't travel back with Link from the AT, but instead split into eight shards. So, it's not stupid. It's based on canon.

For all we know, TP can be slightly different, as Link and Zelda seemed to be born with their pieces.

Very true. But I'm not going to assume that to be the case. I try to assume as little as possible.

If you're going to use that excuse, then the only reason Link doesn't have the mark in MM is because they didn't want to change the model. MM is one big ass copypasta of OOT, and the Triforce mark in the ending was actually something they placed under Zelda's Garden and is never actually a part of Link's model at any time.

That was the smallest part of my response.

Focus on this instead, the main part of what I said: We don't see the ToC til he's in Ganon's Tower. That's really the only time he had the ToC, plot-wise. As soon as he gets the ToC, he heads to confront Ganon.

I assume he's speaking about how the Triforce subtly altered in how it behaves in TP.

What was really altered, though? I didn't notice much different about it, other than the fact that it just appeared to Ganon randomly in a cutscene. Curious, didn't he have gauntlets on then? Perhaps he had the mark, and the Triforce, since Link returned to the CT. It just resonated at that moment because it was being accessed?

Edited by provehito, 15 April 2009 - 12:48 PM.

[Average Gamer]

The ToC can't leave Hyrule. That's why it didn't travel back with Link from the AT, but instead split into eight shards. So, it's not stupid. It's based on canon.

The ToC left Link because it couldn't leave its timeline. I see no reason to believe that Triforce parts are unable to leave the land of Hyrule in general.

Edited by Average Gamer, 15 April 2009 - 03:52 PM.

[provehito]

The ToC can't leave Hyrule. That's why it didn't travel back with Link from the AT, but instead split into eight shards. So, it's not stupid. It's based on canon.

The ToC left Link because it couldn't leave its timeline. I see no reason to believe that Triforce parts are unable to leave the land of Hyrule in general.

Well, Hyrule as in the realm of Hyrule. If it physically can be taken from one realm to another, I don't see why it physically can't be taken from one timeline to another. There may some hidden mechanic there we don't know about, but as far as we know it may have left Link when he went to Termina. There's nothing hinting that it is still with him. No mark and no reference to it.

[Average Gamer]

Well, Hyrule as in the realm of Hyrule. If it physically can be taken from one realm to another, I don't see why it physically can't be taken from one timeline to another.

There would be two of the same Triforce pieces in one timeline, which would presumably mess stuff up while screwing over the timeline that's now missing a Triforce piece.

[Impossible]

What is the TP retcon? I am curious. You can lay it out in general terms if you want, haha.

TP shows Ganondorf receiving the Triforce of Power much later than OoT's ending. There are various problems with the idea that he already had it, but I can't be bothered writing up my whole Divine Prank theory again. I've posted my full timeline, it's in there.

IMO, it was resonating since he recently acquired it, like TWW Link.

If the Triforce split, Zelda would have her piece, and Nintendo wouldn't forget that if they were trying to imply Triforce possession. I think that it's more likely that the mark appeared for more AoL/OoX-ish reasons, despite the prominent ToC. That would be because he's aligned with that force, or something. He was already "chosen by the gods" and "a fated hero", right?

TWW established that the Triforce cannot leave Hyrule, so when Link went to Termina, it wasn't with him anymore.

What? o_O No it didn't. TWW established that when Link went back in time, he was no longer able to receive the ToC. He wasn't the Hero of Time, didn't have the Master Sword or his adulthood, and he went back to before ever getting the ToC. If he really can't take the ToC to Termina, then he sure as hell didn't have it in OoT's ending, because it's not split on the Child Timeline. It still seems to have been passed down in the same way the ToW was.

The ToC can't leave Hyrule. That's why it didn't travel back with Link from the AT, but instead split into eight shards. So, it's not stupid. It's based on canon.

What are you talking about? This isn't based on anything, and nothing ever says this. It didn't travel back with Link for the reasons I stated above, due to him going back to before receiving it. There's no evidence that the Triforce can't leave Hyrule. Link didn't leave Hyrule, he left the timeline, so the Triforce had no owner to go to. I don't see how that's the same. Link still exists in the same stream of time, nothing has prompted him to lose his piece.

[Average Gamer]

TP shows Ganondorf receiving the Triforce of Power much later than OoT's ending. There are various problems with the idea that he already had it, but I can't be bothered writing up my whole Divine Prank theory again. I've posted my full timeline, it's in there.

Judging from his ears, Ganondorf had the ToP before the execution scene in TP. In OoT, Ganondorf's ears were round before he obtained the ToP. After obtaining the ToP, Ganondorf's ears developed points like the ears of a Hylian. His ears, however, did not fully resemble a Hylian's ears.

In TP, Ganondorf's ears have points similar to a Hylian's ears, but his ears do not fully resemble a Hylian's ears.

[Impossible]

So not only do you think that the Triforce changes EARS, which makes no sense at all, you think that's an appropriate way to judge whether or not he has it between two completely different games with different designs and different models for Ganondorf? OoT's Ganondorf had two models, a past one and a future one. TP's only has one. And we only see Ganondorf moments before he first uses the ToP, so I'm not sure how this makes any difference.

Edited by Impossible, 15 April 2009 - 09:06 PM.

[Average Gamer]

So not only do you think that the Triforce changes EARS, which makes no sense at all, you think that's an appropriate way to judge whether or not he has it between two completely different games with different designs and different models for Ganondorf?

Hey, the ear change actually happened in OoT. TP's art style is also more or less OoT's but with better graphics.

OoT's Ganondorf had two models, a past one and a future one. TP's only has one. And we only see Ganondorf moments before he first uses the ToP, so I'm not sure how this makes any difference.

In TP, we always see Ganondorf with his mutated pointed ears that we know he gained after getting the ToP in OoT. Thus he had the ToP before he was stabbed during the execution scene.