278 replies to this topic

[Average Gamer]

FDL, on Mar 14 2009, 06:16 PM, said:

Particularly because the Sages freely admit that they overestimated their power in trying to stop Ganondorf and Ganondorf did not seem remotely surprised at the Triforce being with him/reviving him.

If Ganondorf knew that he had a Triforce piece, I sincerely doubt that he would have stood around and let himself be stabbed in the chest. He probably realized that he had a piece only after being stabbed.

FDL said

The fact that the sages say they overestimated their own powers actually really hurts the idea that Ganondorf received it after being stabbed, as well as the idea that his ownership of it would have to be a secret. If you're about to win a boxing match and you suddenly get struck by lightning, you weren't overestimating your abilities. No one is expected to factor literal deus ex machina into power calculations.

In the ending of OoT, Zelda says that all of the tragedy that has befallen Hyrule was her fault, even though she had no way of knowing that Link would be sealed away and Ganondorf was the one who destroyed Hyrule.

In the ending of TWW, Daphnes apologizes to the children and asks them to forgive their ancestors for only being able to leave them the Great Sea, even though they tried their best to stop Ganon in the backstory and just couldn't defeat him.

In the translated ALttP game text from Zelda Legends, the Sanctuary Priest blames himself for Zelda being captured, even though he was a regular old guy against a bunch of young, fit, well-armed and armored guards and thus didn't stand a chance anyway.

In TP, the Sages could easily just be placing unnecessary blame on themselves just like in the previous examples. Also, if I recall correctly, they only apologize after hearing Midna's story. Thus, they might be apologizing for using the Mirror of Twilight as a panicked last effort, not for Ganondorf having the ToP.

FDL said

Also, Ganondorf could very easily have the Triforce and not have the ability to break free of his restraints, we know from several things that the Triforce "awakens" within it's holder and that it's powers seem more accessible depending on certain factors.

But if you know that you have a Triforce piece you can actually use it and aren't really at its mercy. Additionally, Ganondorf was a skilled sorcerer who would probably be able to use the thing right off the bat without a problem.

[Fin]

Average Gamer, on Mar 15 2009, 02:25 AM, said:

FDL said

Also, Ganondorf could very easily have the Triforce and not have the ability to break free of his restraints, we know from several things that the Triforce "awakens" within it's holder and that it's powers seem more accessible depending on certain factors.

But if you know that you have a Triforce piece you can actually use it and aren't really at its mercy. Additionally, Ganondorf was a skilled sorcerer who would probably be able to use the thing right off the bat without a problem.

From what I've seen Link seems to be the only one who's ever ignorant of his possesion of a Triforce piece. Seems appopriate that a powerful sorceror would know how to use the Triforce of Power, and someone characterised as "wise" would be adept at using her Triforce.

Edited by Fintin O'Brien, 14 March 2009 - 09:34 PM.

[FDL]

Average Gamer, on Mar 14 2009, 10:25 PM, said:

If Ganondorf knew that he had a Triforce piece, I sincerely doubt that he would have stood around and let himself be stabbed in the chest. He probably realized that he had a piece only after being stabbed.

By that logic Ganondorf shouldn't have used "his last breath" to bury himself in rubble at the end of OoT and Link should've been able to transform into a wolf at will as soon as the spirit told him he had it? Not to mention Faron said the Triforce was awakening in Link.

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In the ending of OoT, Zelda says that all of the tragedy that has befallen Hyrule was her fault, even though she had no way of knowing that Link would be sealed away and Ganondorf was the one who destroyed Hyrule.

In the ending of TWW, Daphnes apologizes to the children and asks them to forgive their ancestors for only being able to leave them the Great Sea, even though they tried their best to stop Ganon in the backstory and just couldn't defeat him.

In the translated ALttP game text from Zelda Legends, the Sanctuary Priest blames himself for Zelda being captured, even though he was a regular old guy against a bunch of young, fit, well-armed and armored guards and thus didn't stand a chance anyway.

In TP, the Sages could easily just be placing unnecessary blame on themselves just like in the previous examples. Also, if I recall correctly, they only apologize after hearing Midna's story. Thus, they might be apologizing for using the Mirror of Twilight as a panicked last effort, not for Ganondorf having the ToP.

Except in none of those examples do they specifically say they overestimated themselves. Again, DEM isn't a factor into these kinds of things. The fact that they're specifically referring to power also makes it way less likely that they're talking about using the mirror. That happened after they learned they had overestimated their capabilities.

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But if you know that you have a Triforce piece you can actually use it and aren't really at its mercy. Additionally, Ganondorf was a skilled sorcerer who would probably be able to use the thing right off the bat without a problem.

I don't agree, but I also don't know where you guys are getting that simply having the ToP is what made Ganondorf king.

Edited by FDL, 14 March 2009 - 10:47 PM.

[Average Gamer]

FDL, on Mar 14 2009, 08:17 PM, said:

By that logic Ganondorf shouldn't have used "his last breath" to bury himself in rubble at the end of OoT and Link should've been able to transform into a wolf at will as soon as the spirit told him he had it?

Ganondorf was just infuriated after being defeated in OoT, and collapsed afterward. Bringing down the tower may not have even been intentional, and if it was then it was meant to be a last-ditch effort to kill Link and Zelda.

Link's wolf transformation was due to the ToC reacting to the Twilight, not something that he willed at first. He doesn't seem to be thrilled about being a wolf either, and by the time he needed to transform at will he found a way to do it that didn't involve directly commanding the ToC every time.

FDL said

Not to mention Faron said the Triforce was awakening in Link.

I know. Link was ignorant of it until it deliberately showed itself though.

FDL said

Except in none of those examples do they specifically say they overestimated themselves.

The point isn't that they say they overestimated themselves; the point is that they blame themselves for things that were out of their control.

Also, Zelda does say she was too young to comprehend the consequences in OoT's ending.

OoT Zelda (Japanese Translation) said

All of the tragedy up to this point has been my fault? I attempted to control the Sacred Land without considering my inexperience?

She basically does say that she overestimated herself.

FDL said

Again, DEM isn't a factor into these kinds of things. The fact that they're specifically referring to power also makes it way less likely that they're talking about using the mirror. That happened after they learned they had overestimated their capabilities.

We don't know if they were overestimating the effects of their nameless blade or if they were overestimating the Mirror of Twilight's worth as a permanent solution. They're also apologizing to Midna, and the Twili didn't get involved until the Sages used the Mirror.

Edit: I checked the translation thread and found the translated quote from the Sages, along with Jumbie's commentary. Here it is:

TP Sages (Japanese TP Translation) said

Overestimating our power as sages, we attempted to control the evil magic?

Here's what Jumbie had to say:

Jumbie said

- The Japanese text shows that the sages only regret abusing the mirror to send Ganondorf into Midna's world, not their attempt at executing him: "control evil magic" vs. "put an end to evil magic".

FDL said

I don't agree, but I also don't know where you guys are getting that simply having the ToP is what made Ganondorf king.

It's said in OoT. Ganondorf became a Maou (Demon King) because of the Triforce of Power.

Sheik (OoT Japanese Translation) said

When the Triforce broke in three, what remained in Ganondorf's hand was only the Triforce of Power.

The guy, through the strength of the Triforce, became a Maou [Demon King], but his ambitions did not stop there.

Edited by Average Gamer, 15 March 2009 - 12:12 AM.

[FDL]

DISCLAIMER: I am really not in the mood for a giant argument, I'm simply offering my two cents after several people bad mouthed a theory I like. I have argued about this many times in the past and I know every way it can be argued more or less, so I don't want this to go on for days.

Average Gamer, on Mar 15 2009, 12:53 AM, said:

Ganondorf was just infuriated after being defeated in OoT, and collapsed afterward. Bringing down the tower may not have even been intentional, and if it was then it was meant to be a last-ditch effort to kill Link and Zelda.

Link's wolf transformation was due to the ToC reacting to the Twilight, not something that he willed at first. He doesn't seem to be thrilled about being a wolf either, and by the time he needed to transform at will he found a way to do it that didn't involve directly commanding the ToC every time.

That's exactly my point. Ganondorf clearly thought he was defeated after his baseball game with Link, and rather than using the Triforce to transform into his beast form immediately following the previous fight he buried himself in rubble in a desperate attempt to take Link and Zelda with him. And Zelda was surprised when Ganondorf lived, too. Furthermore, the ToC was known to Link in ToC, but the moment he learned of it he didn't gain the power to shift between forms at will. In fact, he never did.

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I know. Link was ignorant of it until it deliberately showed itself though.

Again, that's my point. His ignorance isn't why it was dormant and subsequently started to awaken.

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The point isn't that they say they overestimated themselves; the point is that they blame themselves for things that were out of their control.

Also, Zelda does say she was too young to comprehend the consequences in OoT's ending.

OoT Zelda (Japanese Translation) said

All of the tragedy up to this point has been my fault? I attempted to control the Sacred Land without considering my inexperience?

She basically does say that she overestimated herself.

Yes, but she was the cause of it. She did cause Ganondorf to obtain the Triforce. If she had left him alone he wouldn't have been able to, which is what some of you are arguing happened in the child timeline. And a line in which they clearly state that they overestimated their power means just that, they overestimated their power. That line makes zero sense as a "taking fault for something they didn't have anything to do with" line, and you can't be dismissive of it when it's that specific.

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We don't know if they were overestimating the effects of their nameless blade or if they were overestimating the Mirror of Twilight's worth as a permanent solution. They're also apologizing to Midna, and the Twili didn't get involved until the Sages used the Mirror.

The mirror isn't their power.

Quote

Edit: I checked the translation thread and found the translated quote from the Sages, along with Jumbie's commentary. Here it is:

TP Sages (Japanese TP Translation) said

Overestimating our power as sages, we attempted to control the evil magic?

Here's what Jumbie had to say:

Jumbie said

- The Japanese text shows that the sages only regret abusing the mirror to send Ganondorf into Midna's world, not their attempt at executing him: "control evil magic" vs. "put an end to evil magic".

I'm not sure where Jumbie's getting that. Perhaps the Japanese makes it clear that it's the mirror they're referring to, but that translation certainly does not. They have absolutely zero reason to believe that Ganondorf will be dead if he's thrown into the Twilight Realm, and if they're referring to the mirror they're basically saying to Midna "We're not sorry we threw him into your world so he could wreak havoc, but we are sorry he eventually found a way out." You guys say that there has to be a lot of stupidity on the parts of several characters in order for Ganondorf to have the Triforce before being stabbed, but the sages would have to be idiots to think that Ganondorf would suddenly be incapable of causing harm to anyone in the Twilight Realm, and jerks for saying they wish he had stayed there to Midna.

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It's said in OoT. Ganondorf became a Maou (Demon King) because of the Triforce of Power.

Sheik (OoT Japanese Translation) said

When the Triforce broke in three, what remained in Ganondorf's hand was only the Triforce of Power.

The guy, through the strength of the Triforce, became a Maou [Demon King], but his ambitions did not stop there.

I'm pretty sure he's referred to as a Maou in games that he has no jurisdiction over Hyrule, and that line still doesn't reference how or when he took over Hyrule. The Wind Waker opening's hylian text makes reference to Ganondorf's armies attacking the castle and eventually taking it over, so it doesn't seem to me that we were ever supposed to believe Ganondorf just walked up to Hyrule Castle and said "Hey, I have the Triforce of Power. Give me the castle now."

[CID Farwin]

I'll add my two cents. Largely I agree with FDL.

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The point isn't that they say they overestimated themselves; the point is that they blame themselves for things that were out of their control.

Also, Zelda does say she was too young to comprehend the consequences in OoT's ending.

OoT Zelda (Japanese Translation) said

All of the tragedy up to this point has been my fault? I attempted to control the Sacred Land without considering my inexperience?

She basically does say that she overestimated herself.

As FDL says, this was actually an overestimation on her part. If she were more experienced, then she probably would have known that Ganondorf wouldn't be able to pull the Master Sword, and that Link was to young to be the Hero of Time. However, to use FDL's analogy, if Link was struck by lightning instead of sealed away, that wouldn't be an overestimation of Zelda's; just a cruel twist of fate. (a "Divine Prank," if you will.)

Quote

We don't know if they were overestimating the effects of their nameless blade or if they were overestimating the Mirror of Twilight's worth as a permanent solution. They're also apologizing to Midna, and the Twili didn't get involved until the Sages used the Mirror.

Edit: I checked the translation thread and found the translated quote from the Sages, along with Jumbie's commentary. Here it is:

TP Sages (Japanese TP Translation) said

Overestimating our power as sages, we attempted to control the evil magic?

Here's what Jumbie had to say:

Jumbie said

- The Japanese text shows that the sages only regret abusing the mirror to send Ganondorf into Midna's world, not their attempt at executing him: "control evil magic" vs. "put an end to evil magic".

The way I read it is: "We overestimated our ability to take care of Ganondorf on our own, so we had no other choice but to use the mirror, sorry." They regret needing to use the mirror; they probably knew it was a temporary solution and just used the mirror out of desperation.

[Average Gamer]

FDL, on Mar 15 2009, 07:54 AM, said:

That's exactly my point. Ganondorf clearly thought he was defeated after his baseball game with Link, and rather than using the Triforce to transform into his beast form immediately following the previous fight he buried himself in rubble in a desperate attempt to take Link and Zelda with him.

Because he never did anything like the Ganon form before, and he was defeated at the moment. He only rose up and became Ganon after he spent at least three minutes lying limply on the floor.

FDL said

And Zelda was surprised when Ganondorf lived, too.

She didn't know that he was immortal.

FDL said

Furthermore, the ToC was known to Link in ToC, but the moment he learned of it he didn't gain the power to shift between forms at will. In fact, he never did.

I think you meant "known to Link in TP".

Anyway, Link didn't seem to want to be a wolf in the first place, and by the time he was required to change forms at will he had found an easier method.

FDL said

Again, that's my point. His ignorance isn't why it was dormant and subsequently started to awaken.

Yeah it is. He didn't know that he had it, and thus he never used it for anything. It only activated itself in his most dire moment.

FDL said

Yes, but she was the cause of it.

No, Ganondorf was the reason why Hyrule was destroyed. Also, you can argue that the Sages were the reason that Ganondorf realized he had the ToP.

FDL said

If she had left him alone he wouldn't have been able to,

And if the Sages didn't stab Ganondorf in the gut he wouldn't have realized that he had the ToP either.

FDL said

That line makes zero sense as a "taking fault for something they didn't have anything to do with" line,

See the Zelda line. Also, Princess Zelda (and basically everyone else) had no idea that the Master Sword would freeze Link, and Zelda might not have known about the Master Sword at first anyway.

FDL said

The mirror isn't their power.

The mirror is a tool that they were given and able to use.

FDL said

I'm not sure where Jumbie's getting that.

They tried to control the evil magic by sealing it away. Keep it in check.

FDL said

Perhaps the Japanese makes it clear that it's the mirror they're referring to, but that translation certainly does not.

They tried to control the evil magic by sealing it away. Also, the Sages are apologizing to Midna, and the reason Midna and the Twili became collateral damage in that mess was because the Sages used the Mirror of Twilight.

FDL said

They have absolutely zero reason to believe that Ganondorf will be dead if he's thrown into the Twilight Realm,

They don't think he'll be dead. They think he'll be "controlled" and unable to harm anyone.

FDL said

and if they're referring to the mirror they're basically saying to Midna "We're not sorry we threw him into your world so he could wreak havoc, but we are sorry he eventually found a way out."

No, they're apologizing for resorting to the Mirror and taking a bad gambit that screwed over the Twili. It wasn't until Zant came along that Ganondorf "awakened" from whatever slumber he was in anyway. Besides, the Sages were clearly apologizing for what happened to the Twili, not for Ganondorf entering the Light World.

FDL said

You guys say that there has to be a lot of stupidity on the parts of several characters in order for Ganondorf to have the Triforce before being stabbed, but the sages would have to be idiots to think that Ganondorf would suddenly be incapable of causing harm to anyone in the Twilight Realm,

He was dormant for at least a hundred years until Zant came along.

FDL said

and jerks for saying they wish he had stayed there to Midna.

They're apologizing for taking a risk with the Mirror that didn't last forever, not for Ganon getting to the Light World. They should be apologizing to Link if they feel bad for Ganondorf getting to the Light World.

FDL said

I'm pretty sure he's referred to as a Maou in games that he has no jurisdiction over Hyrule,

The ToP is still what made him a Maou, and his Makai in OoT was the Sacred Realm.

FDL said

and that line still doesn't reference how or when he took over Hyrule.

Why's that important to this discussion? You just asked if the ToP made him a Maou, which it did.

FDL said

The Wind Waker opening's hylian text makes reference to Ganondorf's armies attacking the castle and eventually taking it over,

Are you referring to the first attack (OoT) or the second one (exclusive to TWW's backstory)? Could you also link to the translated Hylian text?

FDL said

so it doesn't seem to me that we were ever supposed to believe Ganondorf just walked up to Hyrule Castle and said "Hey, I have the Triforce of Power. Give me the castle now."

Well duh. They never forked over the castle. He conquered it. Also, once again, his Makai in OoT was the corrupted Sacred Realm.

CID Farwin said

However, to use FDL's analogy, if Link was struck by lightning instead of sealed away, that wouldn't be an overestimation of Zelda's; just a cruel twist of fate. (a "Divine Prank," if you will.)

That's why I pointed out the translations, where it's revealed that they just apologized for using the Mirror, not for trying to kill Ganon. Also, Zelda had no way of knowing that the Master Sword would freeze Link, and may not have even known that it was there. Thus she'd arguably be in the same boat as the TP Sages.

CID Farwin said

The way I read it is: "We overestimated our ability to take care of Ganondorf on our own, so we had no other choice but to use the mirror, sorry." They regret needing to use the mirror; they probably knew it was a temporary solution and just used the mirror out of desperation.

They are apologizing for trying to control (seal) the evil magic, not for trying to eliminate (kill) it.

[FDL]

Average Gamer, on Mar 15 2009, 08:55 PM, said:

Because he never did anything like the Ganon form before, and he was defeated at the moment. He only rose up and became Ganon after he spent at least three minutes lying limply on the floor.

That's exactly my point. A new Triforce-based power awakened within Ganondorf when his life was endangered even though he had had it for seven years.

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She didn't know that he was immortal.

She knew he had the Triforce, yet she didn't think it'd save him from the destruction of his castle. That's why the sage's surprise at Ganon's revival doesn't really prove anything.

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I think you meant "known to Link in TP".

Anyway, Link didn't seem to want to be a wolf in the first place, and by the time he was required to change forms at will he had found an easier method.

Again, that's my point. And yes, I meant TP, I apologize.

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Yeah it is. He didn't know that he had it, and thus he never used it for anything. It only activated itself in his most dire moment.

Faron says it's beginning to awaken when he's explaining what it is, yet Link didn't suddenly gain power over it. And it was still supposedly gradually awakening thereafter. The fact is, knowing you have it hasn't made it suddenly easy to control, and I don't really see where that comes from.

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No, Ganondorf was the reason why Hyrule was destroyed. Also, you can argue that the Sages were the reason that Ganondorf realized he had the ToP.

Except that wouldn't be an overestimation. You have to look at it as more than simply admitting fault, you also have to see WHAT they're saying was their fault.

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And if the Sages didn't stab Ganondorf in the gut he wouldn't have realized that he had the ToP either.

Now I'm not even sure what you're arguing.

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See the Zelda line. Also, Princess Zelda (and basically everyone else) had no idea that the Master Sword would freeze Link, and Zelda might not have known about the Master Sword at first anyway.

I...did. That Zelda line really doesn't help your case at all. She admitted fault for something that was her fault and she didn't even say the same thing the sages did.

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The mirror is a tool that they were given and able to use.

It's still not their power, and they were never shown overestimating it.

Quote

They tried to control the evil magic by sealing it away. Keep it in check.

We've discussed on this board before how control doesn't have such a rigid definition, and contextually it makes less sense in your scenario.

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They tried to control the evil magic by sealing it away. Also, the Sages are apologizing to Midna, and the reason Midna and the Twili became collateral damage in that mess was because the Sages used the Mirror of Twilight.

Exactly, they apologized to Midna. If they were apologizing for Ganondorf failing to be controlled by the mirror, they'd be apologizing to Link. CID described what they'd be apologizing for if they were talking to Midna.

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They don't think he'll be dead. They think he'll be "controlled" and unable to harm anyone.

Which doesn't really make any sense because the Twilight Realm doesn't kill anyone and they did it completely out of desperation. They shouldn't have believed that would happen.

Quote

No, they're apologizing for resorting to the Mirror and taking a bad gambit that screwed over the Twili. It wasn't until Zant came along that Ganondorf "awakened" from whatever slumber he was in anyway. Besides, the Sages were clearly apologizing for what happened to the Twili, not for Ganondorf entering the Light World.

Ganondorf being in a slumber was never stated in the game. Why would he be when Link was completely unharmed by his journey through the mirror? And I agree that they were apologizing for what happened to the Twili, that's why the references to their power and controlling evil magic don't work if the mirror is what's being referred to.

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He was dormant for at least a hundred years until Zant came along.

We don't know that. Again, Link was completely unharmed.

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They're apologizing for taking a risk with the Mirror that didn't last forever, not for Ganon getting to the Light World. They should be apologizing to Link if they feel bad for Ganondorf getting to the Light World.

That's what I'm saying.

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The ToP is still what made him a Maou, and his Makai in OoT was the Sacred Realm.

Right.

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Why's that important to this discussion? You just asked if the ToP made him a Maou, which it did.

It's important because some of you guys are arguing that Ganondorf obtaining the ToP automatically means that he takes over Hyrule, with no opportunity for a changed timeline. But I'm not sure that's the case.

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Are you referring to the first attack (OoT) or the second one (exclusive to TWW's backstory)? Could you also link to the translated Hylian text?

The first one.

TWW's opening said

Among the myths passed down by the people, there is the following story.

その昔、神々の力が眠るといわれた王国がありました。
Long ago, there existed a kingdom where the power of the gods was said to sleep.

その国は、緑豊かな　美しいところでしたが
That country was a fair place rich in green.

悪しき者に　目をつけられ　神々の力を　奪われてしまいました。
But an evil one coveted and then took the power of the gods.

悪しき力により王国は、闇につつまれ
Through evil forces, he covered the kingdom with darkness.

The line that says that he conquered Hyrule using the ToP in the english version says he used evil forces in Japanese. Forces meaning an army. IIRC Jumbie or jacen even confirmed that's what it means.

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Well duh. They never forked over the castle. He conquered it. Also, once again, his Makai in OoT was the corrupted Sacred Realm.

That's my point, conquering it is different than immediately becoming king the second he obtains the ToP.

Again, I'd like it if we didn't argue about this for much longer. I'm not in the mood for a giant quote war right now(though CID can take over for me if he wants). I have objections to the idea that Link was sent back to a time before he even met Zelda/none of the Triforce bearers had their Triforce pieces when we get several references in TP to OoT Link as a hero(one of which mentions that he once bore the Triforce of Courage no less) and Ganondorf's war on Hyrule, things which shouldn't be true from a "Link didn't really do anything and Ganondorf suceeded at nothing" perspective. And I also don't think vague quotes about divine pranks and Ganondorf being a king because he has the ToP change the whole feel/tone we're given by TP in regards to the past of Hyrule. But that's just me.

[Average Gamer]

I'll have to split this into two replies. Hold on.

FDL, on Mar 15 2009, 07:00 PM, said:

That's exactly my point. A new Triforce-based power awakened within Ganondorf when his life was endangered even though he had had it for seven years.

Ganondorf had to recuperate for at least three minutes. It's not like he went Super Saiyan or anything, and he seems to have intentionally tried out the Ganon transformation or otherwise let power chaotically course through him in a last desperate effort.

FDL said

She knew he had the Triforce, yet she didn't think it'd save him from the destruction of his castle.

She thought he was already dead before the tower began collapsing.

FDL said

That's why the sage's surprise at Ganon's revival doesn't really prove anything.

The timing of the text boxes suggest that they only learned of the "Divine Prank" at that moment. Additionally, it's not just that the Sages are surprised that Ganondorf got up again. When Ganondorf shows off the mark of the Triforce on his hand, one Sage leans back and gasps in surprise and horror.

FDL said

Again, that's my point.

I think you misunderstood me. What I was saying is that Link apparently didn't want to be a wolf, so he wouldn't want to transform unless it was absolutely necessary. By the time it was necessary in the Light World, Link had found an easier, alternative method (the shadow crystal).

FDL said

Faron says it's beginning to awaken when he's explaining what it is, yet Link didn't suddenly gain power over it.

Having checked the Japanese translations, it appears that the power has already awakened within Link by the time Faron speaks to him.

FDL said

And it was still supposedly gradually awakening thereafter.

Don't recall hearing that. Didn't see it in Faron's translations either.

FDL said

The fact is, knowing you have it hasn't made it suddenly easy to control, and I don't really see where that comes from.

Knowing that you have it lets you actually use it. Thus it is active and helping you instead of laying dormant and doing nothing. Controlling a Triforce piece doesn't seem to be any sort of challenge either.

FDL said

Except that wouldn't be an overestimation.

The point is that they and Zelda would both be claiming to overestimate themselves when it wasn't true. They'd just be feeling guilty and placing additional blame on themselves. Also, I'd just like to point out that basically every noise the Sages make in TP sound depressed, grief-stricken, and guilty.

FDL said

You have to look at it as more than simply admitting fault, you also have to see WHAT they're saying was their fault.

I am. That's why I also raised the point of the Mirror translations, to show that they aren't apologizing for trying to kill Ganon anyway.

FDL said

That Zelda line really doesn't help your case at all.

Yes it does. She is saying that she overestimated herself for something that she honestly had no idea of knowing anyway, much like the Sages with the ToP (if they were apologizing for trying to kill Ganon).

FDL said

It's still not their power, and they were never shown overestimating it.

The Japanese text shows that they were referring to their power as Sages. As Sages, one of the things they would be capable of doing is activating the Mirror of Twilight. Since they clearly didn't make any preparations for Ganon's return either, it seems that they were hoping it would be a permanent solution.

FDL said

We've discussed on this board before how control doesn't have such a rigid definition, and contextually it makes less sense in your scenario.

I don't see how you'd be controlling a power if you were trying to eliminate it from existence. That seems like something else all together.

FDL said

Exactly, they apologized to Midna. If they were apologizing for Ganondorf failing to be controlled by the mirror, they'd be apologizing to Link. CID described what they'd be apologizing for if they were talking to Midna.

I already responded to that. They were apologizing for their last-ditch effort failing and the Twili getting harmed in the long run. The Sages hoped that Ganondorf would be dormant in the Twilight Realm forever.

FDL said

Which doesn't really make any sense because the Twilight Realm doesn't kill anyone

I just said that they didn't expect him to be killed. They hoped that he'd just be eternally dormant, and he was in fact dormant until Zant came along.

FDL said

Ganondorf being in a slumber was never stated in the game. Why would he be when Link was completely unharmed by his journey through the mirror?

Ganondorf was dormant for a time.

Ganondorf (Jumbie Translation) said

Pitiful clan, to defy the gods with so little power, only to be forsaken.

Your agony was the nourishment for my flesh and blood.

The hatred turned into power, and awakened me.

I guess Link was spared, possibly because he had the Master Sword, willingly went with the Mirror, or just had the favoritism of the gods. Whatever the case, something did happen to Ganon in the Twilight Realm.

[Average Gamer]

Here's the second part.

FDL said

And I agree that they were apologizing for what happened to the Twili, that's why the references to their power and controlling evil magic don't work if the mirror is what's being referred to.

They still work out. The Sages hoped that Ganondorf would be dormant forever and not awaken to torment the Twili. Ganondorf eventually awakened, and the Sages felt guilty for what happened to the Twili afterward.

FDL said

We don't know that. Again, Link was completely unharmed.

Ganondorf himself says that he was in need of awakening.

FDL said

It's important because some of you guys are arguing that Ganondorf obtaining the ToP automatically means that he takes over Hyrule, with no opportunity for a changed timeline. But I'm not sure that's the case.

I can't speak for everyone, but my stance on that issue is if Ganondorf got the ToP and knew it just like in OoT, he'd be too powerful for the Sages to ever stop. OoT seems to hammer in this point as well. A staple element of the series also seems to be that whenever Ganondorf gets a powerful artifact, a Link is necessary to defeat him. In TP's case, because the ToP first activated to bring Ganondorf back from the edge of death, he was already in "weak enough that a seal might work" mode, and the scar seems to have made him more vulnerable to stuff all-around in TP. Later on though, Zant with just a fraction of a fully-powered Ganondorf's might was too powerful for the Sages to even apparently take on, since he seems to have broken the mirror with no opposition.

TWW's opening said

Among the myths passed down by the people, there is the following story.

Long ago, there existed a kingdom where the power of the gods was said to sleep.

That country was a fair place rich in green.

But an evil one coveted and then took the power of the gods.

Through evil forces, he covered the kingdom with darkness.

That looks more like the actual Japanese text translated, not the Hylian text on the scrolls in the cutscene.

FDL said

The line that says that he conquered Hyrule using the ToP in the english version says he used evil forces in Japanese. Forces meaning an army. IIRC Jumbie or jacen even confirmed that's what it means.

The line you posted said that he covered the kingdom with them (as seen with the various minions in OoT), not that he assailed the castle with them. Doesn't matter much anyway though, since Ganondorf can apparently summon minions in a second (Dodongo's Cavern, cursing the Deku Tree and Jabu Jabu, etc.).

FDL said

That's my point, conquering it is different than immediately becoming king the second he obtains the ToP.

Woah, hold on a second. Getting the ToP made Ganondorf a Maou through a power boost and (primarily) getting the corrupted Sacred Realm. Conquering Hyrule doesn't appear to be a step in his ascension to Maou status.

FDL said

Again, I'd like it if we didn't argue about this for much longer. I'm not in the mood for a giant quote war right now

Alright.

FDL said

I have objections to the idea that Link was sent back to a time before he even met Zelda/none of the Triforce bearers had their Triforce pieces when we get several references in TP to OoT Link as a hero(one of which mentions that he once bore the Triforce of Courage no less)

He could have still become a hero in his lifetime, and if you're referring to the Light Spirits then they likely know more than a normal person would. That, or certain people heard of the story the Royal Family was said to have passed down as mentioned in the opening of MM.

FDL said

and Ganondorf's war on Hyrule,

Ganondorf doesn't necessarily need a Triforce piece to wage war on Hyrule.

I'm really not looking forward to having to split up my posts, so I'll leave it at that. Nice talking to you.

[FDL]

Alright, would you mind if I gave one last response? You don't have to respond as I don't want to keep having increasingly more posts and quotes, but I figure I should offer up a final argument just as you did. Forgive me for any mistakes, as it's late where I am and I'm tired but I feel like I should wrap this up before I go to bed.

Average Gamer, on Mar 16 2009, 12:31 AM, said:

Ganondorf had to recuperate for at least three minutes. It's not like he went Super Saiyan or anything, and he seems to have intentionally tried out the Ganon transformation or otherwise let power chaotically course through him in a last desperate effort.

That's how I think it worked at his execution too. I think power coursed through him when he was on the edge of death, just as in OoT, and that's what gave him the strength to break free of his bonds.

Quote

She thought he was already dead before the tower began collapsing.

Okay, that doesn't really change my point.

Quote

The timing of the text boxes suggest that they only learned of the "Divine Prank" at that moment. Additionally, it's not just that the Sages are surprised that Ganondorf got up again. When Ganondorf shows off the mark of the Triforce on his hand, one Sage leans back and gasps in surprise and horror.

That could just as easily be surprise at the fact that the Triforce is suddenly giving him a burst of strength and saved him from death, really. And Ganondorf wasn't surprised at all(which he should be if this is the first he has heard about it), instead he chuckles and gets right back up.

Quote

I think you misunderstood me. What I was saying is that Link apparently didn't want to be a wolf, so he wouldn't want to transform unless it was absolutely necessary. By the time it was necessary in the Light World, Link had found an easier, alternative method (the shadow crystal).

Right, but if he immediately gained access over all it's power he wouldn't need the shadow crystal even when he did want to transform.

Quote

Having checked the Japanese translations, it appears that the power has already awakened within Link by the time Faron speaks to him.

Yes, I'm sorry, I sometimes get aspects of Jumbie/jacen translations and NoA translations mixed. But the fact that the power can be dormant still implies to me that the Triforce isn't always "on" so to speak.

Quote

Knowing that you have it lets you actually use it. Thus it is active and helping you instead of laying dormant and doing nothing. Controlling a Triforce piece doesn't seem to be any sort of challenge either.

I don't really get where that idea comes from. People say it quite a bit, but we've never really seen someone obtain the Triforce and immediately become some omniscient demi-god. It gives some power, sure, but to me it doesn't seem like we have any concrete evidence that suggests that it immediately hands it's power over to the bearer completely.

Quote

The point is that they and Zelda would both be claiming to overestimate themselves when it wasn't true. They'd just be feeling guilty and placing additional blame on themselves. Also, I'd just like to point out that basically every noise the Sages make in TP sound depressed, grief-stricken, and guilty.

Zelda didn't claim to overestimate herself, she said she literally could not comprehend what would happen. The Sages say they knew Ganondorf's power but believed they could take it.

Quote

The Japanese text shows that they were referring to their power as Sages. As Sages, one of the things they would be capable of doing is activating the Mirror of Twilight. Since they clearly didn't make any preparations for Ganon's return either, it seems that they were hoping it would be a permanent solution.

The thing is, what the mirror actually does is completely out of their hands. And again, they did it in desperation, and clearly didn't appear to have any forethought when they did it. If they truly were talking about the mirror in that line, and believed it to be that good, why did they try to stab Ganondorf? They could've shoved him in the mirror far more easily.

Quote

I don't see how you'd be controlling a power if you were trying to eliminate it from existence. That seems like something else all together.

Not really, because by putting a stop to it they're controlling it. I remember it was argued by others that Zelda's line about Ganondorf "Not being able to control the power of the gods" didn't necessarily refer to actual control, but it's been a while so I can't remember it that well.

Quote

Ganondorf was dormant for a time.

Ganondorf (Jumbie Translation) said

Pitiful clan, to defy the gods with so little power, only to be forsaken.

Your agony was the nourishment for my flesh and blood.

The hatred turned into power, and awakened me.

I guess Link was spared, possibly because he had the Master Sword, willingly went with the Mirror, or just had the favoritism of the gods. Whatever the case, something did happen to Ganon in the Twilight Realm.

I forgot about that line. Well, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Link's transportation through the mirror really doesn't seem that different, and it's not like Midna was worried he'd go into a coma or something. I still have my doubts that Ganondorf's slumber would be caused simply by going through the mirror, but I suppose there's no indication what caused his slumber.

Quote

I can't speak for everyone, but my stance on that issue is if Ganondorf got the ToP and knew it just like in OoT, he'd be too powerful for the Sages to ever stop. OoT seems to hammer in this point as well. A staple element of the series also seems to be that whenever Ganondorf gets a powerful artifact, a Link is necessary to defeat him. In TP's case, because the ToP first activated to bring Ganondorf back from the edge of death, he was already in "weak enough that a seal might work" mode, and the scar seems to have made him more vulnerable to stuff all-around in TP. Later on though, Zant with just a fraction of a fully-powered Ganondorf's might was too powerful for the Sages to even apparently take on, since he seems to have broken the mirror with no opposition.

I've seen that argued before, but to be honest I don't see it. I don't really get why people believe he'd be too powerful for even the sages to temporarily stop. Particularly because the sages say he exposed a weak point, and that's why he was captured.

Quote

The line you posted said that he covered the kingdom with them (as seen with the various minions in OoT), not that he assailed the castle with them. Doesn't matter much anyway though, since Ganondorf can apparently summon minions in a second (Dodongo's Cavern, cursing the Deku Tree and Jabu Jabu, etc.).

He covered the kingdom in darkness with their power. He covered it in darkness by taking over Hyrule.

Quote

Woah, hold on a second. Getting the ToP made Ganondorf a Maou through a power boost and (primarily) getting the corrupted Sacred Realm. Conquering Hyrule doesn't appear to be a step in his ascension to Maou status.

But that's kinda the argument I've seen made for why he has to have obtained the Triforce at the AG. That obtaining the ToP and becoming a Maou=taking over Hyrule.

Quote

He could have still become a hero in his lifetime, and if you're referring to the Light Spirits then they likely know more than a normal person would. That, or certain people heard of the story the Royal Family was said to have passed down as mentioned in the opening of MM.

Actually, I'm talking about how pretty much every tribe/group across Hyrule makes reference to the old hero. Renado does, the Gorons do, the Zoras might, and Impaz might(all that "savior" business).

Also, despite Impossible and Fintin's claims otherwise, it is extremely unlikely that Link having the ToC at the end of OoT was retconned. They referenced this fact in TP, which they shouldn't have done if they wanted us to ignore it. Particularly when nothing says we should like you guys say it does.

Quote

Ganondorf doesn't necessarily need a Triforce piece to wage war on Hyrule.

In OoT he only attacked after Link had obtained the spiritual stones, and even then it wasn't some all-out war like TP implies.

Quote

I'm really not looking forward to having to split up my posts, so I'll leave it at that. Nice talking to you.

Yes, nice talking to you as well. I don't feel I argued well this time, but hopefully I at least offered a decent explanation for my stance. Truthfully I think MPS should add his input, as I feel he's better at debating here than I am.

Edited by FDL, 16 March 2009 - 12:23 AM.

[Average Gamer]

I thought your previous response would be your last post. Might as well make a short reply to this one.

FDL, on Mar 15 2009, 10:20 PM, said:

That's how I think it worked at his execution too. I think power coursed through him when he was on the edge of death, just as in OoT, and that's what gave him the strength to break free of his bonds.

I doubt that a "break free of the rubble" boost would be enough to let Ganondorf break free if he was already at an Adult Timeline OoT level of power and had been reduced to the edge of death.

FDL said

That could just as easily be surprise at the fact that the Triforce is suddenly giving him a burst of strength and saved him from death, really.

They already had that reaction though. There are two separate reactions. The first is shock that Ganondorf isn't dead, and the second comes when they see the Triforce mark.

FDL said

And Ganondorf wasn't surprised at all(which he should be if this is the first he has heard about it), instead he chuckles and gets right back up.

He probably just realized what was going on at that moment and laughed at the irony. If Ganondorf already had the ToP and knew about it, I doubt that he'd stand around and get stabbed, not to mention that, when using the ToP, Ganondorf couldn't be harmed unless he was stunned and shot by a Light Arrow first in OoT.

FDL said

Right, but if he immediately gained access over all it's power he wouldn't need the shadow crystal even when he did want to transform.

What I'm saying is that just sticking himself with the crystal is easier. Before that he had no reason to become a wolf in the light world.

FDL said

But the fact that the power can be dormant still implies to me that the Triforce isn't always "on" so to speak.

But once you know it's there you can "turn it on" at will.

FDL said

I don't really get where that idea comes from. People say it quite a bit, but we've never really seen someone obtain the Triforce and immediately become some omniscient demi-god. It gives some power, sure, but to me it doesn't seem like we have any concrete evidence that suggests that it immediately hands it's power over to the bearer completely.

It basically fuses into them, and it apparently let Ganondorf conquer Hyrule in one day. Also, the ToC activating in Link (turning him into a wolf) let him keep up with enemies that, compared to normal guards, seemingly had super speed.

FDL said

Zelda didn't claim to overestimate herself, she said she literally could not comprehend what would happen.

See the Japanese translation. As I also pointed out above, she did basically claim to overestimate herself.

FDL said

If they truly were talking about the mirror in that line, and believed it to be that good, why did they try to stab Ganondorf?

Because they just planned to kill him and be done with it. The Mirror of Twilight was something they used as a last resort when they couldn't kill him or stop him otherwise.

FDL said

Not really, because by putting a stop to it they're controlling it.

In a certainly vague and awkward way. Trying to restrain Ganondorf through the Mirror of Twilight and keep him in check makes more sense (to me) when it comes to controlling something.

FDL said

I've seen that argued before, but to be honest I don't see it. I don't really get why people believe he'd be too powerful for even the sages to temporarily stop.

Other than the fact that Ganondorf conquered Hyrule with apparent ease in OoT (those Sages didn't amount to anything), the Sages in OoT rely on Link. Even though they are all awakened, have a seventh member with a Triforce piece, and believe that they have the element of surprise, they are dependent on Link to defeat Ganondorf. They don't think that they can do it alone even then.

FDL said

Particularly because the sages say he exposed a weak point, and that's why he was captured.

The thing is, Ganondorf in OoT with/using the ToP is actually invincible. Additionally, they never say that they're the ones who caught him either.

FDL said

He covered the kingdom in darkness with their power. He covered it in darkness by taking over Hyrule.

Actually, Rauru says that he carried out the act of spreading darkness by corrupting the temples.

FDL said

Actually, I'm talking about how pretty much every tribe/group across Hyrule makes reference to the old hero. Renado does, the Gorons do, the Zoras might, and Impaz might(all that "savior" business).

I only recall the Gorons talking about an old hero. However, they like him because he killed a demon with a bow, something Child Link never did. For that he'd have to have done something heroic after OoT's Child ending and after he grew up (it's an adult's bow).

I only recall Impaz talking about a messenger to the skies, not a previous hero.

FDL said

In OoT he only attacked after Link had obtained the spiritual stones, and even then it wasn't some all-out war like TP implies.

The general idea, from what I can tell, is that Ganondorf couldn't open the Door of Time after Link went back and changed history, so he was forced to flat-out invade Hyrule, which failed.

FDL said

Yes, nice talking to you as well.

Same here. Sorry for this last post, I just thought that your previous one would be your last one and I tried to make a final reply to be polite.

[FDL]

I'm not sure what to do now. I'd like to try to clarify some points further now that you've responded again, but I don't really want to go on for an eternity either. I've argued about this enough that I know none of the theories surrounding this stuff have enough solid evidence to be proven true. In fact, I would not have even posted from the beginning if not for the fact that Impossible and Fintin were badmouthing the theory I believe in the most so much.

Edited by FDL, 16 March 2009 - 09:57 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Quote

He probably just realized what was going on at that moment and laughed at the irony. If Ganondorf already had the ToP and knew about it, I doubt that he'd stand around and get stabbed, not to mention that, when using the ToP, Ganondorf couldn't be harmed unless he was stunned and shot by a Light Arrow first in OoT.

Pretty much. Assuming the Triforce was split in the Child Timeline by OOT's events, Ganondorf would have no means to become aware of, and utilize, his Triforce piece until around that exact moment, as he did not seize it with his own hands as in the Adult Timeline.

Quote

Other than the fact that Ganondorf conquered Hyrule with apparent ease in OoT (those Sages didn't amount to anything), the Sages in OoT rely on Link. Even though they are all awakened, have a seventh member with a Triforce piece, and believe that they have the element of surprise, they are dependent on Link to defeat Ganondorf. They don't think that they can do it alone even then.

Those are different circumstances and you know it. You're comparing a scenario with six fully awakened Sages and a Ganondorf who, Triforce or not, is still under the impression that he's a pretty powerful, though otherwise normal magician thief, as opposed to a Ganondorf who seized the Triforce of Power with his own hands and had seven years to master it's power, with only one Sage to try and stop him.

[FDL]

MPS, is the current theory you adhere to that Ganondorf did not go into the SR in the child timeline?

[MikePetersSucks]

Yes.

[FDL]

Am I misremembering or did you used to believe otherwise?

[Average Gamer]

Quote

I'm not sure what to do now.

We can just end it here.

Quote

Those are different circumstances and you know it. You're comparing a scenario with six fully awakened Sages and a Ganondorf who, Triforce or not, is still under the impression that he's a pretty powerful, though otherwise normal magician thief, as opposed to a Ganondorf who seized the Triforce of Power with his own hands and had seven years to master it's power, with only one Sage to try and stop him.

I personally don't see any difference between Ganondorf after he had just claimed the ToP and made the Sacred Realm a Makai and Ganondorf seven years later. He also seems to have just sat around in his tower for seven years while mainly waiting for Link to wake up or his minions to capture Zelda.

[MikePetersSucks]

FDL, on Mar 16 2009, 09:02 PM, said:

Am I misremembering or did you used to believe otherwise?

You're not mistaken, I just change ideas frequently.

[Impossible]

I'm just THAT persuasive.

Many of the massive problems with assuming Ganondorf had the ToP before his execution scene are much, much less severe if you at least accept that there's no way Ganondorf could have entered the SR on the CT. It makes no sense... Are we meant to assume that Zelda, the sages, Ganondorf and Aonuma are all either functionally retarded or deliberately hiding details it wouldn't make any logical sense for them not to reveal? Why the hell do the sages and Aonuma both act like Ganondorf's plan to enter the SR failed, and that he was captured as a precaution, not an immediate act of defense? Why would Zelda send Link back to a point he was already free to return to throughout most of OoT, if it was supposed to prevent those 7 years from happening and send events on a different path - and when we know for a fact that this is what it did? And WHY WOULD GANONDORF NOT CONQUER HYRULE? *sigh* If he personally took the ToP, he certainly would have used it, exactly as on the Adult Timeline.

Edited by Impossible, 17 March 2009 - 03:35 AM.

[FDL]

MikePetersSucks, on Mar 17 2009, 12:43 AM, said:

FDL, on Mar 16 2009, 09:02 PM, said:

Am I misremembering or did you used to believe otherwise?

You're not mistaken, I just change ideas frequently.

If you don't mind me asking, what changed your mind? Perhaps it would even change my own...

Impossible, on Mar 17 2009, 04:33 AM, said:

I'm just THAT persuasive.

Many of the massive problems with assuming Ganondorf had the ToP before his execution scene are much, much less severe if you at least accept that there's no way Ganondorf could have entered the SR on the CT. It makes no sense... Are we meant to assume that Zelda, the sages, Ganondorf and Aonuma are all either functionally retarded or deliberately hiding details it wouldn't make any logical sense for them not to reveal? Why the hell do the sages and Aonuma both act like Ganondorf's plan to enter the SR failed, and that he was captured as a precaution, not an immediate act of defense? Why would Zelda send Link back to a point he was already free to return to throughout most of OoT, if it was supposed to prevent those 7 years from happening and send events on a different path - and when we know for a fact that this is what it did? And WHY WOULD GANONDORF NOT CONQUER HYRULE? *sigh* If he personally took the ToP, he certainly would have used it, exactly as on the Adult Timeline.

I think the "Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf received the Triforce but the entering of the SR was erased from time" theory is a pretty good one, one that I've warmed up to more and more, but all your objections are biased in favor of "It CAN'T BE" when they're all easily explainable.

1. It's never been said it failed or succeeded. It's an assumption either way.
2. It wasn't an act of precaution, he's referred to as a "big criminal" who was given special treatment when being punished and was feared as a demon. He's not just some dude in the CT.
3. She just said she wanted Link to get back his seven years, not that he was supposed to prevent anything specific from happening.
4. It's never been said that Ganondorf getting the Triforce=insta-King of Hyrule Ganondorf.

And here's the thing you don't understand: my objection isn't with you disagreeing with the theory, my objection is with you belittling the theory and the people who think it's a possibility, such as myself. For a long time now that's been the only reason I've consistently defended this theory. Also, for someone who talks a lot about the creator intent behind TWW's ending, you're awfully quick to ignore the intent/specifics there seem to be behind OoT and TP's connection. Extrapolating from the games, we know:

-Ganondorf was hot shit. Even in the CT. Whether he had the Triforce is, of course, debatable but the idea that he was toiling away in obscurity and was a complete failure is simply wrong.
-Link was not a conniving little rat. He was a Big Damn Hero. He did some active heroing and didn't just say "Hey, king, your advisor is an asshole. We should execute him." Even random people of Hyrule still remember his various heroic deeds.


I'll reiterate to make sure my objections are made clear. I believe that, tonally, TP in no way implies nothing in OoT happened. It implies the opposite. And I find the literal divine prank to be an incredibly stupid plot device. That's why I believe that either A. Link was transported to a time right before he actually drew the Master Sword but his presence divided the Triforce anyway or B. Ganondorf actually did get into the SR. Those are closest to the feeling I get from TP. And I apologize if I seemed rude or didn't explain myself well, I feel like I may have done one or both of those things...

Edited by FDL, 17 March 2009 - 10:34 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Quote

A. Link was transported to a time right before he actually drew the Master Sword but his presence divided the Triforce anyway

Or right after. I imagine from a bystander's point of view, Link picked up the sword, then immediately put it down and left.

Quote

If you don't mind me asking, what changed your mind? Perhaps it would even change my own...

Sometimes it's good arguments. Sometimes I just switch around for the hell of it. No offense to anyone here, but I tend not to take Zelda Timelining as seriously, as I also frequent boards for other franchise storylines that need deciphering that are a lot more "serious" thsn Zelda.

[FDL]

MikePetersSucks, on Mar 17 2009, 12:29 PM, said:

Quote

A. Link was transported to a time right before he actually drew the Master Sword but his presence divided the Triforce anyway

Or right after. I imagine from a bystander's point of view, Link picked up the sword, then immediately put it down and left.

That works too. In fact, I like that one better.

Quote

Quote

If you don't mind me asking, what changed your mind? Perhaps it would even change my own...

Sometimes it's good arguments. Sometimes I just switch around for the hell of it. No offense to anyone here, but I tend not to take Zelda Timelining as seriously, as I also frequent boards for other franchise storylines that need deciphering that are a lot more "serious" thsn Zelda.

I don't really take it too seriously either, I just feel like I'm being disrespected for no real reason so I get into it. But as I said, I've really been warming up to the theory we just spoke of up there, so I feel like my view point is shifting a little.

Edited by FDL, 17 March 2009 - 11:44 AM.

[CID Farwin]

Impossible, on Mar 17 2009, 01:33 AM, said:

I'm just THAT persuasive.

Many of the massive problems with assuming Ganondorf had the ToP before his execution scene are much, much less severe if you at least accept that [I'm right and everyone who disagrees with me is a moron.]

If you'd drop the attitude, people would be nicer.

MikePetersSucks, on Mar 17 2009, 09:29 AM, said:

Quote

A. Link was transported to a time right before he actually drew the Master Sword but his presence divided the Triforce anyway

Or right after. I imagine from a bystander's point of view, Link picked up the sword, then immediately put it down and left.

I think we subscribe to similar(if not the same) theories. I really think it's possible either way, here.

The more I've thought about it, the more apparent it is that Ganondorf's actions in TP aren't the same as in other games (where he's nabbed the Triangles.) Does he make any attempt at reuniting the Triforce, of taking the true power for himself? No. He already thinks he's the uncontested ruler of Hyrule.

FDL, on Mar 17 2009, 09:43 AM, said:

I don't really take it too seriously either, I just feel like I'm being disrespected for no real reason so I get into it.

^what he said.

[Impossible]

Quote

I'll reiterate to make sure my objections are made clear. I believe that, tonally, TP in no way implies nothing in OoT happened. It implies the opposite. And I find the literal divine prank to be an incredibly stupid plot device.

Good thing neither of these are points I'm making, nice fucking straw man. This is why we never get anywhere, because you refuse to understand my actual point of view and instead resort to the easiest possible theory to dismantle.

And CID, what the hell? How was that justified? I reiterated an argument I've made in enough detail in the past, in order to explain why a particular version of a theory requires us to completely ignore anything that could have been intended by any person involved. There's no need to be a dick about it and pretend valid points and evidence are just me declaring that I'm right. There were no attacks in my post. Grow up.

Quote

1. It's never been said it failed or succeeded. It's an assumption either way.

So the sages just left out the most important part of the story to be assholes? This is why intent matters, it would make no sense for the creators to have intended for Ganondorf to have entered the Sacred Realm, yet explained the events the way they did. Simply saying they didn't indicate either way misses the fucking point by only taking what's there as direct, literal information and ignoring the meaning in what ISN'T said.

Quote

2. It wasn't an act of precaution, he's referred to as a "big criminal" who was given special treatment when being punished and was feared as a demon. He's not just some dude in the CT.

Eiji Aonuma said

It was decided that Ganon be executed because he'd do something outrageous if they left him be.

Much like with the above... While it may or may not apply to other possibilities, Aonuma would be a dumbass to explain Ganondorf breaking into and taking control of the SR, and yet only describe it like this. He's ALREADY done enough evil and treasonous things, not that you ever read my argument in order to realise that. What they are worried about is that he will do something outrageous in order to enter the Sacred Realm.

Quote

3. She just said she wanted Link to get back his seven years, not that he was supposed to prevent anything specific from happening.

Zelda said

All of the tragedy up to this point has been my fault… I attempted to control the Sacred Land without considering my inexperience… I even got you involved in this conflict. Now I must correct that mistake. Lay the Master Sword to sleep… and close the “Door of Time”.
...
Now, return, Link. So that you can regain the lost time! To where you should be… To the form you should have…

So you're saying that Zelda is just a moron and had no desire to prevent Link from living through Ganon's conquest? The point was to correct the mistake. Not to risk letting it happen again. Why would she send him back to when it was too late? You also ignored the fact that Link could have gone back to that time himself during the game and "stopped" Ganondorf, were that possible at that time.

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4. It's never been said that Ganondorf getting the Triforce=insta-King of Hyrule Ganondorf.

How are the circumstances different? Link can't do shit as a kid without the Master Sword.

Edited by Impossible, 17 March 2009 - 06:03 PM.

[FDL]

Impossible, on Mar 17 2009, 06:52 PM, said:

Good thing neither of these are points I'm making, nice fucking straw man. This is why we never get anywhere, because you refuse to understand my actual point of view and instead resort to the easiest possible theory to dismantle.

I didn't say that's what you were arguing, I said that's what your theory inevitably leads to in my point of view.

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So the sages just left out the most important part of the story to be assholes? This is why intent matters, it would make no sense for the creators to have intended for Ganondorf to have entered the Sacred Realm, yet explained the events the way they did. Simply saying they didn't indicate either way misses the fucking point by only taking what's there as direct, literal information and ignoring the meaning in what ISN'T said.

That's a good point, but no matter what theory you subcribe to you have to speculate from what is said in the game. Nothing is said about a time paradox causing the Triforce to split or the Goddesses actually deciding Ganondorf needs to be revived either.

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Eiji Aonuma said

It was decided that Ganon be executed because he'd do something outrageous if they left him be.

Much like with the above... While it may or may not apply to other possibilities, Aonuma would be a dumbass to explain Ganondorf breaking into and taking control of the SR, and yet only describe it like this. He's ALREADY done enough evil and treasonous things, not that you ever read my argument in order to realise that. What they are worried about is that he will do something outrageous in order to enter the Sacred Realm.

I'm pretty sure there have been multiple translations of that line, some of which actually say Ganondorf did do something outrageous, not that he might've. I've also seen that interpreted as the developers deciding Ganondorf would do something outrageous or something like that. I'd like to ask jacen about it but I don't know where the original Japanese of that line is. And Ganondorf leading a bunch of thieves to invade Hyrule is already something outrageous that we know he did. As for reading your argument, I've read everything you've posted towards me. But I can't exactly extrapolate every little thing you believe about it just from the small amount of info I have. I'd like for you to break your theory down for me if it's not too much of a bother, though.

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Zelda said

All of the tragedy up to this point has been my fault? I attempted to control the Sacred Land without considering my inexperience? I even got you involved in this conflict. Now I must correct that mistake. Lay the Master Sword to sleep? and close the ?Door of Time?.
...
Now, return, Link. So that you can regain the lost time! To where you should be? To the form you should have?

So you're saying that Zelda is just a moron and had no desire to prevent Link from living through Ganon's conquest? The point was to correct the mistake. Not to risk letting it happen again. Why would she send him back to when it was too late? You also ignored the fact that Link could have gone back to that time himself during the game and "stopped" Ganondorf, were that possible at that time.

She's talking about correcting the mistake of getting Link involved in it, which he still pretty much has to do no matter when he goes back to.

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How are the circumstances different? Link can't do shit as a kid without the Master Sword.

I'd say that depends on what Link did.

But truthfully, I don't think it's necessary to argue each individual point heavily. I'm becoming more inclined towards a theory like CID's, Raien's, and MPS's. I've been further leaning towards that idea for a little while, actually, as it seems a little easier/cleaner...though I don't like the idea of getting rid of the "feel" of some of the things said in Ganondorf's scenes. I suppose I'll just have to consider them parallels rather than references to events...

[CID Farwin]

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And CID, what the hell? How was that justified? I reiterated an argument I've made in enough detail in the past, in order to explain why a particular version of a theory requires us to completely ignore anything that could have been intended by any person involved. There's no need to be a dick about it and pretend valid points and evidence are just me declaring that I'm right. There were no attacks in my post. Grow up.

I have no objection to you posting your opinions (yes, they are valid). It's the way you do it that I'm talking about.

I think your response to FDL personifies my point.

If you stopped treating the person you're talking to like a moron, belittling them and their arguments, and coming off generally as an arrogant jerk, people might be more open to listen to the point you're making and not get defensive.

But no, there were no direct attacks in that post.

Edited by CID Farwin, 17 March 2009 - 06:28 PM.

[jacensolo06]

FDL, on Mar 17 2009, 06:22 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure there have been multiple translations of that line, some of which actually say Ganondorf did do something outrageous, not that he might've. I've also seen that interpreted as the developers deciding Ganondorf would do something outrageous or something like that. I'd like to ask jacen about it but I don't know where the original Japanese of that line is.

Luckily, I was able to find it. The original Japanese of that entire interview is here, if anyone cares.

This is my translation of that line:

Eiji Aonuma said

彼をほおっておくと、後にとんでもないことをしでかすヤツなんだということで、処刑することになったわけです。
The reason that he [Ganon] is to be executed is that, if left alone, he would later do something unthinkable.

[FDL]

How does that corroborate with the invasion, though? Anyway, thanks for the help.

[Fin]

Spoiler tags, because I'm not really contributing to the argument here...

FDL, on Mar 16 2009, 02:56 PM, said:

In fact, I would not have even posted from the beginning if not for the fact that Impossible and Fintin were badmouthing the theory I believe in the most so much.

FDL, on Mar 17 2009, 04:43 PM, said:

I don't really take it too seriously either, I just feel like I'm being disrespected for no real reason so I get into it.

I can't speak for Impossible, but when I disrespect a theory I don't neccessarily disrespect anyone who adheres to said theory. I may poke a little fun at it, but I'm directing all jokes at the theory, not the theoriser.

>_> Sorry about that. Just took issue with the implications there.