278 replies to this topic

[NM87]

Yes, but those details seem to be everywhere and anywhere. We should list them or document it, because everyone starts over when the debate comes up, and it is hotly debated.

[canas is back]

I think that ganondorf would have had to have gotten the triforce from some outside intervention here are the reasons:
1. Like impossible states, why couldn't he just escape if he had the triforce of power before the execution.

2. Even if link left the door open there is still one more, albeit rather weak, barrier holding the triforce where it is, the master sword.

3. Nobody else who could access the triforce at that time had any inclination to.

[FDL]

There actually is evidence that the Triforce's power gradually awakens with the bodies of it's holders. Faron says as much. And I was initially mad at the way some people decided that the Ganondorf-obtained-it-before-his-execution theory is nonsensical and stupid with no real reason to believe that, but I got over it quick enough...

Edited by FDL, 05 February 2009 - 03:08 PM.

[Reflectionist]

Ganon's last words in Ocarina of Time are "As long as I have the Triforce of Power..." etc. So it's safe to assume that he has the Triforce of Power at the end of Ocarina of Time.

Link has the Triforce of Courage at the very beginning of Twilight Princess, which is why he maintained the wolf form instead of being turned into a spirit.

The Triforce is split at the end of Ocarina of Time; the Triforce is split at the beginning of Twilight Princess. I'm going to assume nothing seriously happened in between, other than changing hands (in the case of Link and Zelda's descendants or what have you).

And the Divine Prank was that the Sages didn't know that Ganondorf had the Triforce of Power. Like, "Oh yeah, and you can't kill me, because BOOM. I just fucked your shit up." (Hence the sage's reaction, "Holy shit! We just stabbed his ass, and he still fucked our shit up.")

Edited by Reflectionist, 08 March 2009 - 11:45 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

While I mostly agree with you, Reflectionist, keep in mind that the Triforce split happened on the adult timeline, and TP is almost unanimously accepted as being on the child timeline.

[Reflectionist]

While I mostly agree with you, Reflectionist, keep in mind that the Triforce split happened on the adult timeline, and TP is almost unanimously accepted as being on the child timeline.

...Really? Oh. Well, I haven't paid attention to Zelda Timelines since before Twilight Princess came out, so I didn't know that. I guess I don't really see why, though. To me (and this is coming from pre-Twilight Princess, so take it with a grain of salt), it makes more sense that Twilight Princess be part of the adult timeline and Wind Waker be part of the child timeline.

It takes into account the Triforce in both games - The (child) Hero of Time's departure into Termina, splitting the Triforce of Courage, setting the stage for Wind Waker... and the Adult Timeline, where Ganondorf is left in the Dark World* with the Triforce of Power, eventually leading to his discovery of the Twilight Realm / Twili (whether you accept the Twilight Realm = Dark World* or not), and appearing all god-like to Zant, etc. setting the stage for Twilight Princess.

The Triforce split happened in both timelines - I interpreted it as happening right as Link grabbed the Master Sword in Ocarina of Time. I always imagined Link just losing consciousness from his seal right as Ganondorf followed him into the Sacred Realm* and made his little speech. But to be fair, that whole cutscene was kind of vague and the split could've happened at any time in those 7 years. But there's plenty of evidence in both Twilight Princess AND Wind Waker to support the conclusion that the Split happened in both timelines.

If not, then why is the Triforce split up at the beginning of both Wind Waker and Twilight Princess? The only way it wouldn't be is if Link to the Past came directly after Majora's Mask (and this would be allowed, considering the Triforce of Courage split is only a theory, suggested by certain vague quotes from Wind Waker and Majora's Mask). I haven't heard anyone argue that since Wind Waker came out.

It kind of makes sense to me, at least. But like I said, I haven't paid much attention to Timeline debates since about 2004 / 5.


* - I refer to it as the Sacred Realm when the Triforce is complete and out of Ganon's posession, and the Dark World whenever it is split / Ganon is trapped there. It's just semantics, but I like to think that the Triforce of Power bestows that ability on it's holder (evidenced by Sheik's speech to Link in Ocarina of Time, following his awakening, I think).

Edited by Reflectionist, 08 March 2009 - 04:09 PM.

[Raien]

Reflectionist, in case you didn't know, Eiji Aonuma stated that Twilight Princess takes place on the Child Timeline and The Wind Waker takes place on the Adult Timeline.

Also, the Triforce of Courage did not split when Link left for Termina; that was an invention by Nintendo of America. The Japanese TWW states that the ToC split when Zelda sent Link back in time. Of course, the Triforce did split in the Child Timeline, but we presume it was a separate splitting caused by the timeline-change... somehow.

Edited by Raien, 08 March 2009 - 05:09 PM.

[Reflectionist]

Reflectionist, in case you didn't know, Eiji Aonuma stated that Twilight Princess takes place on the Child Timeline and The Wind Waker takes place on the Adult Timeline.

Also, the Triforce of Courage did not split when Link left for Termina; that was an invention by Nintendo of America. The Japanese TWW states that the ToC split when Zelda sent Link back in time. Of course, the Triforce did split in the Child Timeline, but we presume it was a separate splitting caused by the timeline-change... somehow.

Apparently, I did not know that, Raien. (Nor did I say I was any expert on the matter - for some reason the phrase "In case you didn't know," comes off a bit condescending, but it's probably just from my own experience, and not you.) Oh, well. Sounds to me like Eiji Aonuma is unnecessarily making things difficult - his declaration on the matter makes absolutely no sense at all, and only serves to further confuse the timeline.

I'd rather go by what the games give than what the developers say, anyway - the developers are busy people and have a lot more on their minds than the timeline of the games, anyway. It makes sense to focus on what's actually said IN game than what's said outside of it. Though, from what I remember of the timeline forums, some people think that's blasphemy.

Anyway, if the Aonuma quote is the only contention, then I think what I said earlier makes more sense... and I didn't even know Nintendo of America invented the other thing - I saw it on these forums first, forever ago, and actually assumed that someone was clever enough to think of that for themselves. (Something about the Triforce only being able to reside in Hyrule, and not in Termina - which doesn't even really exist as a part of Hyrule.)

[Raien]

There's actually a good two-step rule to apply to timeline development:

1) Every new Zelda game is developed from the beginning to connect to a single previous game. These connections are always very strong as a result.
2) The developers think about the new game's relationship to other games later on, and give it a more concrete placement.

Twilight Princess was developed clearly as OoT's sequel, placing it firmly in Step 1. I don't think there's any question as to where the developers intended it to go when they made the game.

[Reflectionist]

There's actually a good two-step rule to apply to timeline development:

1) Every new Zelda game is developed from the beginning to connect to a single previous game. These connections are always very strong as a result.
2) The developers think about the new game's relationship to other games later on, and give it a more concrete placement.

Twilight Princess was developed clearly as OoT's sequel, placing it firmly in Step 1. I don't think there's any question as to where the developers intended it to go when they made the game.

Oh, I agree that Twilight Princess is Ocarina of Time's sequel - and I also believe that Wind Waker is Ocarina of Time's sequel. That's not the issue, here.

[MikePetersSucks]

The Wind Waker refers to events that happened on the Adult Timeline, complete with the same sealing. The Twilight Princess makes various references to child timeline elements, such as a transitioning of the Temple of Time to the Lost Woods of LTTP. I don't know how you received the opposite conclusion.

[Fin]

I'd rather go by what the games give than what the developers say, anyway - the developers are busy people and have a lot more on their minds than the timeline of the games, anyway. It makes sense to focus on what's actually said IN game than what's said outside of it. Though, from what I remember of the timeline forums, some people think that's blasphemy.

Hug.

[Reflectionist]

The Wind Waker refers to events that happened on the Adult Timeline, complete with the same sealing.

Oh, you mean the stained glass? Well, I suppose that makes sense. But, there's also a sealing depicted in Twilight Princess... albeit more stylized. (But with the same Sage medallions that were not in the child portion of Ocarina of Time!)

The Twilight Princess makes various references to child timeline elements, such as a transitioning of the Temple of Time to the Lost Woods of LTTP.

So, since when is the Master Sword being in the Lost Woods inherently a "Child Timeline" event? When I say that I feel Twilight Princess belongs in the Adult Timeline, I mean the games that spawn from Twilight Princess as well... including Link to the Past. This isn't an acceptable proof of Twilight Princess being in the Child Timeline. What you did was provide a connection between Twilight Princess and Link to the Past, which heavily references the adult ending of Ocarina of Time, in more than just stained glass.

(Remember, those sages were in the child portions of Ocarina of Time, too. After Zelda sent Link back in time, she seemed to know she was a sage, so why shouldn't they?)

I don't know how you received the opposite conclusion.

Oh, well, I typed it out. Let me quote it for you.

While I mostly agree with you, Reflectionist, keep in mind that the Triforce split happened on the adult timeline, and TP is almost unanimously accepted as being on the child timeline.

...Really? Oh. Well, I haven't paid attention to Zelda Timelines since before Twilight Princess came out, so I didn't know that. I guess I don't really see why, though. To me (and this is coming from pre-Twilight Princess, so take it with a grain of salt), it makes more sense that Twilight Princess be part of the adult timeline and Wind Waker be part of the child timeline.

It takes into account the Triforce in both games - The (child) Hero of Time's departure into Termina, splitting the Triforce of Courage, setting the stage for Wind Waker... and the Adult Timeline, where Ganondorf is left in the Dark World* with the Triforce of Power, eventually leading to his discovery of the Twilight Realm / Twili (whether you accept the Twilight Realm = Dark World* or not), and appearing all god-like to Zant, etc. setting the stage for Twilight Princess.

The Triforce split happened in both timelines - I interpreted it as happening right as Link grabbed the Master Sword in Ocarina of Time. I always imagined Link just losing consciousness from his seal right as Ganondorf followed him into the Sacred Realm* and made his little speech. But to be fair, that whole cutscene was kind of vague and the split could've happened at any time in those 7 years. But there's plenty of evidence in both Twilight Princess AND Wind Waker to support the conclusion that the Split happened in both timelines.

If not, then why is the Triforce split up at the beginning of both Wind Waker and Twilight Princess? The only way it wouldn't be is if Link to the Past came directly after Majora's Mask (and this would be allowed, considering the Triforce of Courage split is only a theory, suggested by certain vague quotes from Wind Waker and Majora's Mask). I haven't heard anyone argue that since Wind Waker came out.

It kind of makes sense to me, at least. But like I said, I haven't paid much attention to Timeline debates since about 2004 / 5.


* - I refer to it as the Sacred Realm when the Triforce is complete and out of Ganon's posession, and the Dark World whenever it is split / Ganon is trapped there. It's just semantics, but I like to think that the Triforce of Power bestows that ability on it's holder (evidenced by Sheik's speech to Link in Ocarina of Time, following his awakening, I think).

[Fin]

I think the main reason to consider a Waker=adult, Princess=child timeline is Ganon's respective backstories in those games. Waker addresses quite blatantly his sealing from Ocarina, whereas Princess treats Ganon more like an unknown - the sages are executing him to nip the threat in the bud, as it were.

He was the leader of a band of thieves who invaded Hyrule in the hopes of establishing dominion over the Sacred Realm.
He was known as a demon thief, an evil-magic wielder renowned for his ruthlessness...
But he was blind...
In all of his fury and might, he was blind to any danger, and thus was exposed, subdued, and brought to justice.

I basically read that as, "He came to Hyrule hoping to invade the Sacred Realm, but was careless and got caught." They certainly don't act like he actually managed to rule Hyrule for seven whole years.

[MikePetersSucks]

Oh, you mean the stained glass? Well, I suppose that makes sense. But, there's also a sealing depicted in Twilight Princess... albeit more stylized. (But with the same Sage medallions that were not in the child portion of Ocarina of Time!)

And a different sealing method. And totally different Sages. And no Master Sword involved. And presumably an entirely different type of conflict where Link was probably absent.

So, since when is the Master Sword being in the Lost Woods inherently a "Child Timeline" event? When I say that I feel Twilight Princess belongs in the Adult Timeline, I mean the games that spawn from Twilight Princess as well... including Link to the Past. This isn't an acceptable proof of Twilight Princess being in the Child Timeline. What you did was provide a connection between Twilight Princess and Link to the Past, which heavily references the adult ending of Ocarina of Time, in more than just stained glass.

It's generally accepted by everyone but Lex that no Hyrule-based games can take place after Wind Waker, since Hyrule was totally destroyed and creating a new one goes against the entire message and point of the game. Nor does Wind Waker leave much room for things to go between it and OOT. Even if so, TP is on the opposite timeline of Wind Waker due to developer intent. Therefore, etc.

[Erimgard]

After Zelda sent Link back in time, she seemed to know she was a sage

Care to explain that?

[Showsni]

I think the usual argument says that OoT Link was sent to before Ganon got the triforce, he sealed the Door of Time, and Ganon was forced to use some other method to try and get the triforce (now that Link isn't helpfully leaving the door open) which failed, leading to his attempted execution. Of course, that hinges on how you view the time travel in OoT, so it wouldn't work in many a theory. But by this, the triforce hasn't been split in OoT, so some other reason is needed for its split.

[Fin]

So, since when is the Master Sword being in the Lost Woods inherently a "Child Timeline" event? When I say that I feel Twilight Princess belongs in the Adult Timeline, I mean the games that spawn from Twilight Princess as well... including Link to the Past. This isn't an acceptable proof of Twilight Princess being in the Child Timeline. What you did was provide a connection between Twilight Princess and Link to the Past, which heavily references the adult ending of Ocarina of Time, in more than just stained glass.

It's generally accepted by everyone but Lex that no Hyrule-based games can take place after Wind Waker, since Hyrule was totally destroyed and creating a new one goes against the entire message and point of the game. Nor does Wind Waker leave much room for things to go between it and OOT. Even if so, TP is on the opposite timeline of Wind Waker due to developer intent. Therefore, etc.

Uh, MPS, Reflectionist said absolutely nothing about Wind Waker there. His point was that by invoking a connection between Twilight Princess and Link to the Past all you're doing is... connecting Princess and LttP. His argument was that the adult and child timelines are reversed, but the Waker timeline still seems to end at Hourglass, with all the other games happening after Princess.

[Crimson Lego]

I'd say option no. 2. It's unlikely Ganondorf could get into the Sacred Realm while he and his Gerudo army attacked the Hylians. Obviously, Link and Zelda had their respective pieces, and Ganondorf got it from some magical divine force when the Sages tried to kill him.

[MikePetersSucks]

Uh, MPS, Reflectionist said absolutely nothing about Wind Waker there. His point was that by invoking a connection between Twilight Princess and Link to the Past all you're doing is... connecting Princess and LttP. His argument was that the adult and child timelines are reversed, but the Waker timeline still seems to end at Hourglass, with all the other games happening after Princess.

But he asked for my reasoning on why I put Twilight Princess on the child timeline and how it therefore serves as evidence. The evidence? TP and LTTP BOTH have to be on the opposite timeline of Wind Waker, fact, which is in the adult timeline, fact.

Edited by Showsni, 10 March 2009 - 06:01 PM.
Removing gratuitous insults

[Sir Turtlelot]

I'd rather go by what the games give than what the developers say, anyway - the developers are busy people and have a lot more on their minds than the timeline of the games, anyway. It makes sense to focus on what's actually said IN game than what's said outside of it. Though, from what I remember of the timeline forums, some people think that's blasphemy.

I completely agree with this. The ingame events are set in stone, they cannot change, whereas the word of developers can be subject to change.

I think the main reason to consider a Waker=adult, Princess=child timeline is Ganon's respective backstories in those games. Waker addresses quite blatantly his sealing from Ocarina, whereas Princess treats Ganon more like an unknown - the sages are executing him to nip the threat in the bud, as it were.

He was the leader of a band of thieves who invaded Hyrule in the hopes of establishing dominion over the Sacred Realm.
He was known as a demon thief, an evil-magic wielder renowned for his ruthlessness...
But he was blind...
In all of his fury and might, he was blind to any danger, and thus was exposed, subdued, and brought to justice.

I basically read that as, "He came to Hyrule hoping to invade the Sacred Realm, but was careless and got caught." They certainly don't act like he actually managed to rule Hyrule for seven whole years.

I also agree with this, Ganon's backstories show which side of the timeline that WW & TP go. WW's intro basically explains where it belongs. The execution scene in TP gives the most evidence of where it should go, I've always assumed that when he was being brought to justice for his crimes, that they ment war crimes. When Link was sent back in time in OoT's ending, most assume that he warned the king of Ganon's plans, so when he did invade, they were able to stop him, and execution was his punishment.

[Reflectionist]

Uh, MPS, Reflectionist said absolutely nothing about Wind Waker there. His point was that by invoking a connection between Twilight Princess and Link to the Past all you're doing is... connecting Princess and LttP. His argument was that the adult and child timelines are reversed, but the Waker timeline still seems to end at Hourglass, with all the other games happening after Princess.

But he asked for my reasoning on why I put Twilight Princess on the child timeline and how it therefore serves as evidence. The evidence? TP and LTTP BOTH have to be on the opposite timeline of Wind Waker, fact, which is in the adult timeline, fact.

The only thing is is that Link to the Past also references Ocarina of Time's adult segment - in fact, that's what Ocarina of Time was made to be: the Imprisoning War from Link to the Past's back story - even had the same sealing and sages (as close as an SNES game, anyway - there was a 'short' one. Although there's still no Master Sword or Hero reference, there are numerous distinct 'sealing' stories, none of which quite match up, and I think that in itself might deserve its own thread). And we've already concluded that Link to the Past MUST follow Twilight Princess and it can be no other way.

Yes, you're right - Twilight Princess and Link to the Past have to be on the opposite timeline of Wind Waker, but then you've got two games that directly reference the adult timeline, on different timelines. That's all I was saying - and I think the bonds between Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time's adult ending are far stronger than the bonds between Wind Waker and Ocarina of Time's adult ending. Although, yes, they both have connections to the adult timeline.

Except Wind Waker has possible connections to the child timeline, whereas Link to the Past does not. The only think putting Link to the Past into the Child Timeline is the flood and it's connection to Twilight Princess, which isn't all that substantial, or compelling to me, personally.

[Raien]

Except Wind Waker has possible connections to the child timeline, whereas Link to the Past does not. The only think putting Link to the Past into the Child Timeline is the flood and it's connection to Twilight Princess, which isn't all that substantial, or compelling to me, personally.

Wind Waker has no possible connections to the Child Timeline, seeing as how Ganondorf had to have been sealed away in the Sacred Realm by the Hero of Time. For this to occur in a timeline where the sealing did not happen makes no sense.

As for the OoT > ALttP, it's notoriously inconsistent. How did Ganondorf get sealed in the Sacred Realm with only the Triforce of Power, but end up with the whole Triforce? This is why all theorists (except Lex) separate OoT from the Imprisoning War story.

[Reflectionist]

^ How did Ganon go from being killed standing up to being in the Sacred Realm with the entire Triforce?

[Average Gamer]

^ How did Ganon go from being killed standing up to being in the Sacred Realm with the entire Triforce?

Reincarnation, presumably.

[Raien]

Reincarnation. Ganondorf died in TP, a new one was born to accidentally discover the Sacred Realm in the Imprisoning War story. Some people like to force fit FSA into this position, but I disagree because it really doesn't work.

[Reflectionist]

Reincarnation. Yeah.... that makes sense.

So.... let me see if I have this right: you can contrive explanations like "reincarnation" to fix your contradiction, but... a small, inconsequential contradiction in my proposition just fails right off the bat, huh?

Edited by Reflectionist, 11 March 2009 - 08:17 AM.

[Raien]

So.... let me see if I have this right: you can contrive explanations like "reincarnation" to fix your contradiction, but... a small, inconsequential contradiction in my proposition just fails right off the bat, huh?

The reincarnation of Ganondorf is not entirely contrived; FSA establishes that it has happened. And let's face it, OoT's story does not match the Imprisoning War at all. Ganondorf stumbled upon the entrance to the Sacred Realm in the IW, but he researched it in OoT. Ganondorf fought his men to take the Triforce in the IW, but was alone to take it in OoT. Ganondorf took the whole Triforce in the IW, but only the Triforce of Courage in OoT. The Sages were protected by the Knights of Hyrule in the IW, but by no one in OoT. For all intents and purposes, the IW features a new Ganon.

Now there is an explanation for the inconsistencies when Nintendo said they meant OoT to be the IW. Nintendo created another back story to ALttP between its release and OoT, which was later meshed with the IW to create the inconsistent mess that was released in OoT. And Nintendo's first reaction was to wash away that connection with a flood story, which has been reconfirmed to be the true sequel to OoT's Adult ending, if that wasn't already immediately obvious. The OoT>ALttP connection has been retconned.

Sure, there is no timeline that doesn't have some sort of plot hole, but placing TP and ALttP on the child timeline is the only way to avoid actual contradictions and developer intent.

[MikePetersSucks]

The only thing is is that Link to the Past also references Ocarina of Time's adult segment - in fact, that's what Ocarina of Time was made to be: the Imprisoning War from Link to the Past's back story - even had the same sealing and sages (as close as an SNES game, anyway - there was a 'short' one. Although there's still no Master Sword or Hero reference, there are numerous distinct 'sealing' stories, none of which quite match up, and I think that in itself might deserve its own thread). And we've already concluded that Link to the Past MUST follow Twilight Princess and it can be no other way.

LTTP referencing OOT is impossible now, due to both TP and TWW, so that's a moot issue by that point. Besides, LTTP reference seven vague Sages and the Sacred Realm, and might not even be the same Sages. TWW got the Sacred Realm, a depiction of the Triforce split, Link on Epona with the Master Sword, the same specific Sages, and so forth.

Yes, you're right - Twilight Princess and Link to the Past have to be on the opposite timeline of Wind Waker, but then you've got two games that directly reference the adult timeline, on different timelines. That's all I was saying - and I think the bonds between Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time's adult ending are far stronger than the bonds between Wind Waker and Ocarina of Time's adult ending. Although, yes, they both have connections to the adult timeline.

As you can plainly see above, that's simply not true.

Except Wind Waker has possible connections to the child timeline, whereas Link to the Past does not. The only think putting Link to the Past into the Child Timeline is the flood and it's connection to Twilight Princess, which isn't all that substantial, or compelling to me, personally.

The only Child Timeline references in Wind Waker I can possibly think of that have any serious weight (maybe) are the Majora's Mask references in the Tingle bonus stuff.

Some people like to force fit FSA into this position, but I disagree because it really doesn't work.

To their credit, FSA actually was supposed to be a new Imprisoning War before it was changed near the end of development, so it's not entirely unreasonable. A new story would have to go inbetween, but same with the link between TMC and FS.

Reincarnation. Yeah.... that makes sense.

So.... let me see if I have this right: you can contrive explanations like "reincarnation" to fix your contradiction, but... a small, inconsequential contradiction in my proposition just fails right off the bat, huh?

Reincarnation is a fact of life in the Zelda multiverse. People die, they're recycled, eventually you get a new Malon, or Link, or Zelda, or Tingle, or Ganondorf, or Telma, or Impa, etc. It's not really an asspull like saying "Solid Snake reincarnated", or anything.

[Erimgard]

After Zelda sent Link back in time, she seemed to know she was a sage

Care to explain that?