278 replies to this topic

[CID Farwin]

Reincarnation. Yeah.... that makes sense.

So.... let me see if I have this right: you can contrive explanations like "reincarnation" to fix your contradiction, but... a small, inconsequential contradiction in my proposition just fails right off the bat, huh?

Generally, that's how this entire forum goes. (see: Divine Prank)

That's one of the main reasons why I stopped theorizing.

[Reflectionist]

^ Majora's Mask.

[MikePetersSucks]

What about it?

[Erimgard]

^ Majora's Mask.

No references are made to Zelda being a Sage in Majora's Mask.

If I may offer my two cents, the fact that new Sages [with the exception of Rauru] needing to be awakened would imply [as later echoed in Wind Waker] that the old ones had been killed by Ganondorf. With Ganondorf never rising to power in OoT's child ending, the Sages would not have been murdered, and Zelda would not have been awoken.

Being a Sage in the Adult Timeline wouldn't make her a Sage in the Child Timeline. The Awakening Call from the Sacred Realm serves that purpose, and I see nothing to imply that it ever existed in the Child Timeline, especially considering that Zelda is the Seventh Sage to lead them all, and in Twilight Princess, no such position exists.

[MikePetersSucks]

If I may offer my two cents, the fact that new Sages [with the exception of Rauru] needing to be awakened would imply [as later echoed in Wind Waker] that the old ones had been killed by Ganondorf. With Ganondorf never rising to power in OoT's child ending, the Sages would not have been murdered, and Zelda would not have been awoken.

Rauru calls himself one of the ancient Sages. As in his generation of Sages probably predates the lifetime of Link and the other characters by a loooooong time. IMO, he survived by being in the Sacred Realm, not because all Sages are so long-lived.

[Erimgard]

If I may offer my two cents, the fact that new Sages [with the exception of Rauru] needing to be awakened would imply [as later echoed in Wind Waker] that the old ones had been killed by Ganondorf. With Ganondorf never rising to power in OoT's child ending, the Sages would not have been murdered, and Zelda would not have been awoken.

Rauru calls himself one of the ancient Sages. As in his generation of Sages probably predates the lifetime of Link and the other characters by a loooooong time. IMO, he survived by being in the Sacred Realm, not because all Sages are so long-lived.

I agree.

The fact that there's no Rauru-looking Sage in TP would imply that the old geezer did eventually croak, or Nintendo decided to change his looks significantly.

[Impossible]

The sages can clearly change their form how they want, though... Note FSA, and OoT's ending. I'm sure one of TP's sages is Rauru.

[KJ Contrarian]

I voted "Something else" - Although admittedly, Twilight Princess is not a huge strength of mine.

At the end, doesn't Zelda say that the gods left the twilight mirror so that it would be "destined" that they (Zelda, Midna, Link) would meet? Or something like that, I don't remember the full quote. I sort of took that as meaning the story events of the game (Including the "Divine Prank") may have been a purposeful intention of the godesses. It was their will to see a turnaround or "redemption" for the Twili, and the "Divine Prank", granting Ganondorf the ToP at that particular moment for him, was one piece of the puzzle in making that happen. At least that's how I took it.

[Average Gamer]

Wasn't Zelda kind of guessing though and just stating a personal belief?

As for the TP Sages, not really sure what to think. Mainly I've just thought they were a separate group for the mirror, kind of like how there are separate Sages for the Master Sword.

Edited by Average Gamer, 13 March 2009 - 07:15 PM.

[jacensolo06]

Since the TP sages have the same elements as the OoT ones, I don't think they're supposed to be a different group like the Master Sword ones from WW.

[Fin]

1. TP sages have the same elements as the OoT sages.

2. Rauru is an ancient sage. Said to have had the Temple of Time built (to protect the entrance to the sacred realm)

3. TP sages have guarded the mirror "since ancient times" - implications that they were the ones that forged the Master Sword (to battle evil types who get the Triforce)



So... both ancient sages, both involved in creating something to protect the Triforce from evil... yeah, it seems pretty clear to me that Rauru's one of the TP sages.

[Raien]

I think it's pretty clear that the TP Sage of Light was not created to be the Rauru character, but as theorists, we're bound by Zelda lore to accept Rauru as the TP Sage of Light because he originally described himself as one of the ancient Sages. The presence of the TP Sages is, like the Temple of Time, a big mess that comes from ignoring and contradicting the events in OoT. Why did the Temples awaken brand new Sages when there were already a group of Sages appointed as "guardians of Hyrule"? I prefer not to consider the problems that arise from this disconnect.

Edited by Raien, 13 March 2009 - 08:56 PM.

[Fin]

Oh, I definitely don't think the connection was deliberate on the part of the creators of the games. I doubt they remembered that they'd made Rauru an ancient sage, so they probably trying to show us all of the original sages here. Hell, I like to think the owl was the old Sage of Time (Christ, the name itself is fanon!) but I'd be shocked if anyone at Nintendo remember that he was supposed to be a sage.

[Average Gamer]

Since the TP sages have the same elements as the OoT ones, I don't think they're supposed to be a different group like the Master Sword ones from WW.

Yeah, I know they have the same elemental symbols, but I always thought of them as a different group. From what I could tell, their main priority was guarding the Mirror of Twilight, and it seemed like they operated from the Arbiter's Grounds instead of the Chamber of Sages. The Water Sage also seemed to be calling the shots in TP, seeing as how he was the one who stabbed Ganondorf. As far as OoT goes, I figured that the Light Sage would be the second in command (to the seventh Sage), seeing as how they were in the Sacred Realm itself and Rauru spoke to Link after he had awakened all of the other Sages.

The TP Sages didn't seem to know anything about the Triforce splitting before the execution scene either. Rauru should have noticed that the Triforce had suddenly vanished from the Sacred Realm one day and been worried. Also, on a minor note, how would he get out of the realm if the Master Sword was sealing the way?

Really though, I never really thought it mattered if they were a different group or not. Just saying what I always felt.

Edited by Average Gamer, 13 March 2009 - 09:48 PM.

[Sir Turtlelot]

Ya, I've always thought that Rauru & Kaepora Gaebora were two of the Ancient Sages. Depending on if you agree with the theory of the seven wise men being the Ancient Sages, then one of the sages would have to be a member of the royal family.

[Fin]

I think this is why Raien prefers to ignore the loose fit. Working out the trivial details can be fun, but we could argue back and forth forever and not get anywhere.

[Sir Turtlelot]

True, but a little debating won't hurt anyone, besides without the debates it is nowhere near as fun.

[Impossible]

Why did the Temples awaken brand new Sages when there were already a group of Sages appointed as "guardians of Hyrule"?

Because Ganondorf killed all the ancient sages, save Rauru. OoT says that the ancient sages, Rauru included, connected the Temple of Time to the Sacred Realm. TP says they forged the Master Sword. They're clearly the same sages.

The TP Sages didn't seem to know anything about the Triforce splitting before the execution scene either. Rauru should have noticed that the Triforce had suddenly vanished from the Sacred Realm one day and been worried. Also, on a minor note, how would he get out of the realm if the Master Sword was sealing the way?

Huh, you know, do you think maybe this problem only exists if you assume that the Triforce split before Ganondorf's execution? I don't see a problem here at all. Particularly as Ganondorf would have just broken free earlier and killed the sages, if he had the ToP.

Edited by Impossible, 14 March 2009 - 02:02 AM.

[Average Gamer]

Why did the Temples awaken brand new Sages when there were already a group of Sages appointed as "guardians of Hyrule"?

Because Ganondorf killed all the ancient sages, save Rauru. OoT says that the ancient sages, Rauru included, connected the Temple of Time to the Sacred Realm. TP says they forged the Master Sword. They're clearly the same sages.

I think what Raien was trying to ask was why was it destined that new Sages would have to awaken if there wasn't an absence of Sages to begin with. I get where you're coming from though.

Huh, you know, do you think maybe this problem only exists if you assume that the Triforce split before Ganondorf's execution? I don't see a problem here at all. Particularly as Ganondorf would have just broken free earlier and killed the sages, if he had the ToP.

We see the ToC glowing brightly on Link's hand in the ending of OoT though, so the Triforce split on the Child Timeline seems to have happened before the final scene of OoT. I also doubt that the final encounter happened after the execution scene, seeing as how Aonuma stated that Ganondorf was executed years after Link and Zelda's meeting.

[Impossible]

...And in a period of years, you really don't think Ganon would have successfully conquered Hyrule as he did on the Adult Timeline? What's going to stop him if he has the ToP? And why the hell would the sages be surprised that he has it?

[Fin]

He doesn't have the Triforce mark anymore during Majora's Mask. The original intent of OoT's ending was probably for Link to keep the Triforce of Courage, but that seems to have been retconned since.

[Impossible]

Sh, no, a single inconsistent detail with many possible meanings and interpretations that has no real significance in the story is CLEARLY more important than endless examples of fucking insane stupidity of all the characters involved if Ganondorf had the ToP the whole time.

Aonuma's explanation of these events makes no sense if Ganondorf already had the ToP, and TP's explanation makes no sense if he already had the power to conquer Hyrule and kill the sages. The list of problems just goes on and on, though...

[Fin]

I've always thought the way Ganon's death was shown was some indication toward the divine prank interpretation. He seems to lose the Triforce of Power before he actually dies. I always thought of that as the goddesses sending it back to the sacred realm after he's played his part in this little drama they'd orchestrated. I think Raien mentioned something in another thread about the possibility that the gods allowed the events of Twilight Princess to occur so that Link would inspire the Hylians, which seems fitting with his role in the story (I'd also say to help inspire the Twili).

Sh, no, a single inconsistent detail with many possible meanings and interpretations that has no real significance in the story is CLEARLY more important than endless examples of fucking insane stupidity of all the characters involved if Ganondorf had the ToP the whole time.

Oh, totally. That's the best kind of storytelling.

Edited by Fintin O'Brien, 14 March 2009 - 02:51 AM.

[Average Gamer]

(Sorry for the delayed reply. I was busy watching something.)

...And in a period of years, you really don't think Ganon would have successfully conquered Hyrule as he did on the Adult Timeline? What's going to stop him if he has the ToP?

I think that Ganondorf just never knew that he had it (and thus didn't use it) until the execution scene. Remember, Link didn't know he had the ToC in OoT until Sheik blatantly told him, and it didn't even activate for Link when Bongo Bongo was kicking his ass. Link in TP seems to have not known about his Triforce piece until it activated as well.

And why the hell would the sages be surprised that he has it?

I always figured that they were a different group of Sages, and with the way between realms shut they wouldn't have any way to know that the Triforce had left the Sacred Realm. I think that they didn't know of the Triforce split until the execution scene.

He doesn't have the Triforce mark anymore during Majora's Mask.

The Triforce marks don't constantly show up on someone's hand though.

Edited by Average Gamer, 14 March 2009 - 03:11 AM.

[Impossible]

I think that Ganondorf just never knew that he had it (and thus didn't use it) until the execution scene. Remember, Link didn't know he had the ToC in OoT until Sheik blatantly told him, and it didn't even activate for Link when Bongo Bongo was kicking his ass. Link in TP seems to have not known about his Triforce piece until it activated as well.

The mark was on Link's hand for no reason in OoT's ending. Surely it would have appeared on Ganondorf's hand with similarly little reason? Ganondorf would have understood better than Link what it meant. Link is not Ganon. Ganondorf would have used its power trying to escape/kill the sages. Saying that he could have a piece of the Triforce and not know at all is pretty illogical. It's not the same situation as the ToC at all. It gives Ganondorf power, and he damn well needed that power much earlier, and would have attempted to use his full strength. And as the Triforce of Power, I assume its power would be something with a much more obvious effect than the Triforce of Courage.

I always figured that they were a different group of Sages, and with the way between realms shut they wouldn't have any way to know that the Triforce had left the Sacred Realm. I think that they didn't know of the Triforce split until the execution scene.

Even if they were different sages, which is illogical when they have the medallion symbols and when it's never suggested that there are two sets of ancient sages (both responsible for the MS/ToT), do you really think communication between them is that shit that Rauru would never have let anyone know that the Triforce was gone?

[Average Gamer]

The mark was on Link's hand for no reason in OoT's ending.

Considering that they threw it in there and made it easy to see, there was probably some reason for it.

Surely it would have appeared on Ganondorf's hand with similarly little reason?

Triforce pieces light up whenever they want to, from the looks of it. Link went through his entire adult journey in OoT and his didn't light up until he reached the top of Ganon's Tower. When TWW Link approached Ganondorf and Zelda in the Puppet Ganon room his piece didn't light up. TP Link seems to have gone through his entire life up to the beginning of the game without his piece lighting up or him otherwise noticing it.

Ganondorf would have understood better than Link what it meant. Link is not Ganon.

I know that. What I'm saying is that I believe he was never made aware of it until he got stabbed by the Sages. It was at that point it revealed itself, and Ganondorf proceeded to use it and kill a Sage.

Saying that he could have a piece of the Triforce and not know at all is pretty illogical.

Hey, it's happened before in the series.

It's not the same situation as the ToC at all.

It's similar enough.

It gives Ganondorf power, and he damn well needed that power much earlier,

The ToC never activated for Link in OoT at times when he'd have needed it, and in TP the ToC didn't exactly help Link out much when it first activated. It knocked him out when he was in the presence of an unfamiliar and dangerous creature.

And as the Triforce of Power, I assume its power would be something with a much more obvious effect than the Triforce of Courage.

I doubt it.

Even if they were different sages, which is illogical when they have the medallion symbols and when it's never suggested that there are two sets of ancient sages (both responsible for the MS/ToT),

Technically, I don't think either group (OoT or TP) actually claimed to be the ones who made the Master Sword. Heck, it might have been the two already slapped with the task of praying to empower the thing.

do you really think communication between them is that shit that Rauru would never have let anyone know that the Triforce was gone?

Well, the entire realm was supposed to be sealed away. He's kind of screwed in that scenario.

I really have to go to bed. Later.

[MikePetersSucks]

The sages can clearly change their form how they want, though... Note FSA, and OoT's ending. I'm sure one of TP's sages is Rauru.

Turning into a mote of light isn't really comparable to...well, that. And it seems they altered their personalities and dumped their names too, and became able to regenerate from death.

I think it's pretty clear that the TP Sage of Light was not created to be the Rauru character, but as theorists, we're bound by Zelda lore to accept Rauru as the TP Sage of Light because he originally described himself as one of the ancient Sages.

Not necessarily. Who's to say they're not replacements/descendants of a group of Sages before them? The TP Sage of Light the replacement for Rauru, another TP Sage of Water the replacement for the one Ganondorf killed, etc. Just because those group of Sages have been protecting the mirror since ancient times doesn't necessarily mean that the Sages themselves are literally ancient.

Hell, I like to think the owl was the old Sage of Time (Christ, the name itself is fanon!) but I'd be shocked if anyone at Nintendo remember that he was supposed to be a sage.

Actually, the wording in Japanese is slightly different. The owl is the reincarnation of some guy who knew a lot, not a holy Sage with spiritual powers.

Because Ganondorf killed all the ancient sages, save Rauru. OoT says that the ancient sages, Rauru included, connected the Temple of Time to the Sacred Realm. TP says they forged the Master Sword. They're clearly the same sages.

I don't remember this. Can you source me the bolded parts?

The mark was on Link's hand for no reason in OoT's ending. Surely it would have appeared on Ganondorf's hand with similarly little reason?

No reason? Zelda was right there. If the Triforce split did indeed happen, then we have two Triforce bearers in the same room, causing resonance.

[CID Farwin]

No reason? Zelda was right there. If the Triforce split did indeed happen, then we have two Triforce bearers in the same room, causing resonance.

Oh, I thought you already knew what people usually responded to that with: "B...b..bbut teh mark wazn't on teh Zelda's hand."

[Reflectionist]

Because Ganondorf killed all the ancient sages, save Rauru. OoT says that the ancient sages, Rauru included, connected the Temple of Time to the Sacred Realm. TP says they forged the Master Sword. They're clearly the same sages.

I don't remember this. Can you source me the bolded parts?

I just happened to be replaying Twilight Princess and caught this part: After the Lakebed Temple, when you go see Zelda, she advises you to go to the Sacred Grove and get the Master Sword, which was "crafted by the "wisdom of the Ancient Sages."

[FDL]

The Goddesses splitting the Triforce at random times and then taking it away from Ganondorf seems a HELL of a lot more illogical than anything the literal divine prank believers come up with as obstacles of the "Ganondorf already had the Triforce" theory. Particularly because the Sages freely admit that they overestimated their power in trying to stop Ganondorf and Ganondorf did not seem remotely surprised at the Triforce being with him/reviving him. The fact that the sages say they overestimated their own powers actually really hurts the idea that Ganondorf received it after being stabbed, as well as the idea that his ownership of it would have to be a secret. If you're about to win a boxing match and you suddenly get struck by lightning, you weren't overestimating your abilities. No one is expected to factor literal deus ex machina into power calculations.

Also, Ganondorf could very easily have the Triforce and not have the ability to break free of his restraints, we know from several things that the Triforce "awakens" within it's holder and that it's powers seem more accessible depending on certain factors.

Edited by FDL, 14 March 2009 - 08:17 PM.