506 replies to this topic

[wring]

The Sacred Realm is already the Dark Realm by the time of Four Sword. Ocarina of Time is the Imprisoning War, they just messed up the storyline like all Zelda games do. Its not like they consider story when they make these games. Besides, theirs also the six cities in Adventures of Link, that are named after the Seven Sages. Its not a cameo, it was done on purpose to hint at the connection between the Sages and A Link to the Past and the Imprisoning War and all that stuff. Also, in Four Sword, Ganondorf turns into Ganon and gets the Trident he has in A Link to the Past. Add the seal into the Four Sword which ends up at A Link to the Past in the Dark Realm, unexplainably, and also the seven Maidens with Sage-like Power, AND the Dark Realm/World and its pretty clear its a direct prequal to A Link to the Past.

The Ocarina of Time is the Imprisoning War which places all the classics on the Adult Timeline because they remember the events of the Adult Timeline. Now you could try and place A Link to the Past before the Flood, since, technically, Ganon doesn't escape the seal in that game. Maybe it could work something like this: OoT-(Ganon breaks seal)MC-FS/FSA-ALttP/LA-Ganon revives, Dark World no longer exsists, so the Goddesses flood Hyrule-TWW/PH- New Hyrule is formed from the Islands- OoX-LoZ/AoL
I like that timeline allot, actually, It was just off the top of my head.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Now you could try and place A Link to the Past before the Flood, since, technically, Ganon doesn't escape the seal in that game Maybe it could work something like this: OoT-(Ganon breaks seal)MC-FS/FSA-ALttP/LA-Ganon revives, Dark World no longer exsists, so the Goddesses flood Hyrule-TWW/PH- New Hyrule is formed from the Islands- OoX-LoZ/AoL
I like that timeline allot, actually, It was just off the top of my head.

"Ganon breaks seal" makes TWW and ALttP obsolete, as in TWW he escapes it and in ALttP he breaks it.

[Raien]

1) Regardless, his form is depicted in a pyramid-shaped seal in the Light World. And why could it not appear as such? This is the appearance of such seals throughout a number of media. What is important is that the FSA seal echoes it precisely, which means that, in keeping with the pattern, it may be sealed in the Dark World/Sacred Realm.

My issue is that there is no evidence that such a pyramid seal exists in ALTTP. Surely the seal would be referenced and protected by characters in the game if it did exist, and I would expect it to play a role in Agahnim's ritual to break the seal, given the nature of symbolism regarding things of a physical nature. But not even ALTTP's manual actually references a pyramid seal; it just appears in the accompanying picture and that makes me reckon the image is not literal. After all, how could the seal be depicted as it actually exists in ALTTP? It would be like depicting air; it can't be done literally.

The pyramid seal in FSA is quite clearly literal because we see the Maidens create it in-game. And there is a purpose for creating the pyramid seal that reflects the events at the beginning of the game. Vaati was released into the Light World because Link removed the Four Sword from its' pedestal, and so by shielding the Four Sword from human hands, the maidens prevent anyone from releasing Ganon in the same way. If anything, the pyramid is a shield, not a seal.

2) To prevent him threatening the Light World, presumably. Perhaps they don't know where the golden power lies, hence people searching for it in ALttP.

That argument is clearly grasping for straws. The Sage bloodline has always shown a perfect understanding of magic, regardless of which generation of Sages have been shown. The young Maidens in ALTTP knew how to use their magic just as well as the Sages in TP, even as their powers had declined. And besides, your argument is distinctively lacking the evidence regarding cause-and-effect that would be made obvious by any storyteller.

Edited by Raian, 05 September 2008 - 04:19 PM.

[Alastair]

It's also clear that Ganondorf never leaves the SR between the IW and ALttP. "The person who rediscovered the Golden Land was Ganondorf the evil thief. Luckily, he couldn't figure out how to return to the Light World..."

Only if you think this quote applies to the IW. I would say TWW makes ALttP Ganon being the IW* Ganon impossible. Others would say TWW makes OoT Ganon being the IW Ganon impossible. Either way someone contradicts the original intent.

Yes, the original intent has to be contradicted, but the choice you present is either to contradict the canon to adhere to a timeline, or to respect the canon and contradict the timeline. Other timelines are possible (including there being no coherent timeline) so is there a justifiable reason to contradict the canon?



*By IW Ganon I assume this refers to OoT Ganon.

Edited by Alastair, 05 September 2008 - 06:07 PM.

[Arturo]

Wait, wait. Lexxi Aleiron is Lionharted?! Why, instead of creating a new username, ask at the Suggestions Forum your name to be changed or PM and Admin? I mean, it loosk much more tidy that way...

[wring]

I was in class, and it was boring, so here's my timeline idea!
Adult Timeline
MC-OoT/MM-TP

Child Timeline
Ok, this one will require some explaining, I was thinking about Timeline, and then it hit me, put the classics BEFORE Wind Waker, and it sort of fell into place like this.
Mc-OoT-FS/FSA
Ok so Ganondorf escapes the seal, just like in the legend at the intro to Wind Waker, but he gets resealed by the Seven Maidens.
-AlttP
Ok, so I heard in Wind Waker Ganondorf is sealed inside the Master Sword. I haven't played the game yet, but maybe its similar to Vatti's situation. Vatti was killed by the Four Sword, and then in the next game, he ended up sealed inside the Four Sword. Maybe the same thing happens here. A Link to the Past is when Ganondorf gets resealed, and immidiately after A Link to the Past, Hyrule gets flooded, which would lead perfectly into..
/LA/SZ
So I think that inbetween ALttP and LA Hyrule gets flooded which is why Link is sailing, And Link and Zelda escape to the mountains. Also after or during LA, Sleeping Zelda Legend happens. Maybe the reason Link was sailing was to try and find a way to awaken Zelda like NoA said (But that would mean he failed )
-WW/PH-OoA/OoS
The Deku Tree pulled together the Islands and made a new Land of Hyrule. Also, at the end of WW Ganondorf dies, and he gets revived at the end of Oracles, and I say the revive was permanent, and Ganon was allot smarter then Oracles makes him appear. And so it leads into
-LoZ/AoL
What's nice about putting the games here is it explains the Six cities named after the Sages. All of Hyrule is a completely different land, so they needed new cities, and since the Sages played such a heavy role in History...

Anyways, don't think too hard about this theory, cus I'm just trying to be creative and have some fun with the storyline, its not about being right or wrong. Its just a mental game for me, and I love that kind of thing. It makes you think more about the games.

[Lexxi Aileron]

My issue is that there is no evidence that such a pyramid seal exists in ALTTP. Surely the seal would be referenced and protected by characters in the game if it did exist, and I would expect it to play a role in Agahnim's ritual to break the seal, given the nature of symbolism regarding things of a physical nature. But not even ALTTP's manual actually references a pyramid seal; it just appears in the accompanying picture and that makes me reckon the image is not literal. After all, how could the seal be depicted as it actually exists in ALTTP? It would be like depicting air; it can't be done literally.

It happens all of the time in fantasy media: we see a clear point at which we can view a sealed antagonist stuck in his prison, despite that he is sealed in a cut-off alternate universe. ALttP's official art, while made posthumously for the player's guide, depicts such a seal, as does TWW's stained glass.

In any case, the form of all three seal depictions is the same; why do you insist on ignoring as much?

If anything, the pyramid is a shield, not a seal.

I fail to see the difference.

That argument is clearly grasping for straws. The Sage bloodline has always shown a perfect understanding of magic, regardless of which generation of Sages have been shown. The young Maidens in ALTTP knew how to use their magic just as well as the Sages in TP, even as their powers had declined. And besides, your argument is distinctively lacking the evidence regarding cause-and-effect that would be made obvious by any storyteller.

Again, the same "cause and effect" mentality, when applied to TP, ties him directly to the Shadow Clan's activities, yet a closer inspection of the series at large, outside of the specific chapter, reveals that this is unlikely.

If Ganon is so obviously the cause of the conflicts that caused that Sacred Realm to be sealed (despite all reference to this removed from the most recent version of the material), then Ganon is equally obviously the cause of the conflicts that led to the sealing of the magic users in the Twilight Realm- with the added consistency that Ganon is a magic user.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 05 September 2008 - 11:45 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

1) Regardless, his form is depicted in a pyramid-shaped seal in the Light World.

Yea, in the English version. No such imagery exists in the NOP media.

What is important is that the FSA seal echoes it precisely, which means that, in keeping with the pattern, it may be sealed in the Dark World/Sacred Realm.

It was the creation of a Kekkai. Sending it to the Sacred Realm is not only stupid, redundant, pointless, and ineffectual, but it would also nullify the usefulness of the Kekkai.

2) To prevent him threatening the Light World, presumably. Perhaps they don't know where the golden power lies, hence people searching for it in ALttP?

Right, so they'll just dump it in some other dimension with a golden sky instead of a place where they can keep an eye on it? If they had the intent or ability to send it to the Sacred Realm, why not have done it when it was Vaati's prison?

The Sacred Realm is already the Dark Realm by the time of Four Sword.

Says who?

Ocarina of Time is the Imprisoning War, they just messed up the storyline like all Zelda games do. Its not like they consider story when they make these games.

If you're gonna say that, stop making timelines.

Besides, theirs also the six cities in Adventures of Link, that are named after the Seven Sages. Its not a cameo, it was done on purpose to hint at the connection between the Sages and A Link to the Past and the Imprisoning War and all that stuff.

Even though the cities exist in AoL, centuries or even millenia after the Imprisoning War and the Successor of the Sages incidents to the point where memory of the old Hyrule is almost totally gone? Especially when these cities didn't exist during those eras? It's an allusion, dude. Fiction is full of them without their needing to contain in-universe correlation to what they're referring to.

Also, in Four Sword, Ganondorf turns into Ganon and gets the Trident he has in A Link to the Past. Add the seal into the Four Sword which ends up at A Link to the Past in the Dark Realm, unexplainably, and also the seven Maidens with Sage-like Power, AND the Dark Realm/World and its pretty clear its a direct prequal to A Link to the Past.

Even though according to LTTP, Ganondorf got his Ganon form, Trident, and powers from the Triforce and not by any dark magic, and he got into the Dark Realm not by banishing but by WALKING IN ON ACCIDENT.

It doesn't work dude, get over it.

OoT-(Ganon breaks seal)MC-FS/FSA-ALttP/LA-Ganon revives, Dark World no longer exsists, so the Goddesses flood Hyrule-TWW/PH- New Hyrule is formed from the Islands- OoX-LoZ/AoL

I'm sorry, that's one of the most terrible timelines I've ever seen.

Adult Timeline
MC-OoT/MM-TP

TP goes in the Child Timeline, that'd been a cemented fact.

Child Timeline
Ok, this one will require some explaining, I was thinking about Timeline, and then it hit me, put the classics BEFORE Wind Waker, and it sort of fell into place like this.

Nothing can go inbetween OOT and TWW, but let's see what you got.

Mc-OoT-FS/FSA
Ok so Ganondorf escapes the seal, just like in the legend at the intro to Wind Waker, but he gets resealed by the Seven Maidens.

Impossible. In FSA Ganondorf has only done his first act of evil as far as anyone knows. in OOT, he becomes an evil sorceror, terrorizes people, seizes the Triforce of Power, then takes over, then gets sealed. In FSA, we're told he was born, grew up relatively respectable, then seized the Trident. The two probably aren't even the same Ganondorf. One of them has to be some sort of descendant or reincarnation of the other.

Ok, so I heard in Wind Waker Ganondorf is sealed inside the Master Sword. I haven't played the game yet, but maybe its similar to Vatti's situation. Vatti was killed by the Four Sword, and then in the next game, he ended up sealed inside the Four Sword. Maybe the same thing happens here. A Link to the Past is when Ganondorf gets resealed, and immidiately after A Link to the Past, Hyrule gets flooded, which would lead perfectly into..

Ganondorf isn't sealed inside the Master Sword at any point.

So I think that inbetween ALttP and LA Hyrule gets flooded which is why Link is sailing, And Link and Zelda escape to the mountains. Also after or during LA, Sleeping Zelda Legend happens. Maybe the reason Link was sailing was to try and find a way to awaken Zelda like NoA said (But that would mean he failed sad.gif )

............what?

I'm sorry, please excuse my rudeness, but this is exactly the type of retarded bullshit that requires a person to play the games before they make timelines. LA isn't the flooded world, it's the OCEAN. THE OCEAAAN! The reason Hyrule was flooded was because there was no Link at all to stop Ganon (because OOT Link went back to his time.)

The Deku Tree pulled together the Islands and made a new Land of Hyrule. Also, at the end of WW Ganondorf dies, and he gets revived at the end of Oracles, and I say the revive was permanent, and Ganon was allot smarter then Oracles makes him appear.

You can say it all you want, but the games say otherwise, and we can't argue with the games, ever, in a case like this. Why are you so deadset with this idea? It doesn't work.

What's nice about putting the games here is it explains the Six cities named after the Sages. All of Hyrule is a completely different land, so they needed new cities, and since the Sages played such a heavy role in History...

I'd hardly say that. People in the era of LTTP can't even remember the names or races of the Sages, if they're intended to be the same from OOT.

[Impossible]

And so the farce begins again... I'll just keep to the sidelines.

By the same token, there's absolutely no reason why ALttP Ganon must be the IW Ganon. If FSA/ALttP is after TWW, the two Ganons are completely different. No problem, no contradictions - in fact, fewer contradictions than in calling them the same Ganon.

You crack me up, little buddy.

(Because nobody else could seriously think it deserves a response anyway, and I'm not doing anything for your sake. Of course many people have already posted the exact reasons stated explicitly in ALttP explaining that they're the same, but you want us to go out of our way to type them up again, just so you can ignore them, again, and pretend that your word is gospel and has no counterarguments to it to date, again, in the NEXT topic like this.)

Frankly, Impossible, I take none of your points into account because I value developer statements higher than yours.

No, actually, you do it because you don't know how to respond to them, so you'd rather close your eyes and pretend they don't exist.

Isn't there a statement from Aonuma or Miyamoto somewhere about why they don't want to reveal the whole timeline to us? I could swear there is one, but it's rarely brought up, so I'm not sure where it is right now. Anyone have any idea? I'm quite sure it's relevant to this debate.

OoT-LoZ/AoL-ALttP
OoT=IW
TWW before other games

Nothing has contradicted either of these statements since they were released.

Aside from the fact that the last one isn't a developer statement... If you honestly think that the first two have NOTHING, literally nothing at all, directly contradicting them... This is why I'm not even going to argue with you anymore. That's a joke and you know it. Yeah, the fact that in between OoT and ALttP, Ganon breaks his seal and is killed, is in no way an obstacle to OoT being the IW. And there's nothing wrong with placing the first five games out of order, aside from the fact that LoZ's events aren't possible UNTIL ALttP has happened to establish the origins of Ganon and the state of the Triforce. And that ALttP's box says that it's a prequel. But yeah, no contradictions. (By the way, you having your fictional explanations for them doesn't stop them from being contradictions, so you're just factually wrong.)

By the way, nothing has contradicted Aonuma saying that FS was first since he said it, either. The contradictions come from FSA, which was already out in Japan.

Edited by Impossible, 06 September 2008 - 02:32 AM.

[Raien]

It happens all of the time in fantasy media: we see a clear point at which we can view a sealed antagonist stuck in his prison, despite that he is sealed in a cut-off alternate universe.

MPS just pointed out that the pyramid seal never existed in the Japanese ALTTP, which certainly explains why we never see or hear of it in the game and why it is never referenced in the manual. In which case, it doesn't matter whether it appeared in other fantasy media, because what matters is whether it appears in ALTTP, and it doesn't.

ALttP's official art, while made posthumously for the player's guide, depicts such a seal, as does TWW's stained glass.

So if an artist posthumously draws a picture of aliens flying down from space to kill Ganon, that makes it canon? Nope, if it doesn't appear in the original game or manual script, then it doesn't appear at all.

TWW's stained glass shows a triangle, not a pyramid, and thus clearly depicts the Triforce of Power.

In any case, the form of all three seal depictions is the same; why do you insist on ignoring as much?

Because appearance is not as important as function. You're saying that two devices which look the same must logically possess the same function, when surely their function should be analysed before making any decisions about the appearance. From within FSA's shield, the Four Sword is clearly in the pedestal that sits within the Four Sword sanctuary, and so it's pretty obvious that the Four Sword has not left Hyrule.

PS: MPS proves the function is different by establishing that FSA's seal is Kekkai.

I fail to see the difference.

A seal is designed to prevent someone inside interacting with the outside.
A shield is designed to prevent someone outside interacting with the inside.

Again, the same "cause and effect" mentality, when applied to TP, ties him directly to the Shadow Clan's activities, yet a closer inspection of the series at large, outside of the specific chapter, reveals that this is unlikely.

No, it doesn't. The game establishes that Ganondorf was sent to the Twilight Realm long after the Dark Tribe had transformed into Twili. Cause-and-effect establishes that Ganondorf's invasion took place long after the Dark Tribe's attacks.

Edited by Raian, 06 September 2008 - 06:46 AM.

[Impossible]

Oh yeah, and MPS, can you post your Onmyoji theory?

[Lexxi Aileron]

Yea, in the English version. No such imagery exists in the NOP media.

What about TWW?

http://www.zeldalege...glass_ganon.png

It was the creation of a Kekkai. Sending it to the Sacred Realm is not only stupid, redundant, pointless, and ineffectual, but it would also nullify the usefulness of the Kekkai.

You're going to have to explain this if you're going to throw around Japanese terms as if they're common knowledge.

Right, so they'll just dump it in some other dimension with a golden sky instead of a place where they can keep an eye on it? If they had the intent or ability to send it to the Sacred Realm, why not have done it when it was Vaati's prison?

Vaati is not as large a threat as Ganon. The seal has already failed twice. It's an additional precaution.

MPS just pointed out that the pyramid seal never existed in the Japanese ALTTP

A similar seal was depicted in TWW, however, as a representation of the sages' seal.

Nope, if it doesn't appear in the original game or manual script, then it doesn't appear at all.

There is no timeline, then?

As for pyramid seals appearing in the original game: what's THIS:

http://www.zeldalege...l_b-sealing.jpg

Not that the pyramid seal on Ganon isn't drafted by a Japanese artist in any case.

TWW's stained glass shows a triangle, not a pyramid, and thus clearly depicts the Triforce of Power.

I call bullshit.

A seal is designed to prevent someone inside interacting with the outside.
A shield is designed to prevent someone outside interacting with the inside.

A seal is a type of shield; seals can seal things out or in, shields block things.

No, it doesn't. The game establishes that Ganondorf was sent to the Twilight Realm long after the Dark Tribe had transformed into Twili. Cause-and-effect establishes that Ganondorf's invasion took place long after the Dark Tribe's attacks.

When? Give an exact quote, otherwise I call bullshit.

Impossible: Absolutely nothing even attaches Ganon in ALttP to the Imprisoning War on even a surface level, now that the only references to this have been removed from the manual. Saying "they did it to save space" is rather useless; they did not trim down the LoZ or AoL manual stories at all, even in the Japanese.

Aside from the fact that the last one isn't a developer statement... If you honestly think that the first two have NOTHING, literally nothing at all, directly contradicting them...

1) The last one:

May 2002

Q: I think I'm right in saying the new Zelda takes place before the other Zelda games, right?

Miyamoto: I'm not that deeply involved in the Zelda project, but that is actually the case. We have decided that the setting for the game is that it is kind of near the beginning.

http://www.miyamotos...s/2405022.shtml

2) ALttP depicts a sages' seal, cast long ago during the Imprisoning War by Seven Sages, which is broken in ALttP. OoT depicts the Imprisoning War of the Seven Sages. No game to date has featured the sages' seal being broken aside from ALttP, although many sequels to OoT and at least one prequel to ALttP must interrupt the two. This doesn't completely force the seals to be different, however, just the Ganons, and FSA offers us a Ganon to replace the one killed in TWW. The two contradictions- Ganon having the full Triforce and Ganon being killed in TWW- have solutions found in TWW (Triforce reunited) and FSA (Ganon revived). Now Ganon need only reenter the Sacred Realm and be unable to find his way out (it's sealed, after all), and there are no contradictions whatsoever. I argue that the maidens in FSA seal the Four Sword in the Dark World, where we see it in GBA ALttP, and that Ganon escapes it (thus it being broken). If you think any game coming after TWW to be a contradiction, I suggest you look at the above developer quote regarding TWW. If you still disagree, then we disagree on a principle that in fact has nothing to do with ALttP. But none of the "contradictions" you posed are fatal ones, and both of them have had corrections in future games.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 06 September 2008 - 11:53 AM.

[Raien]

What about TWW?

http://www.zeldalege...glass_ganon.png

A similar seal was depicted in TWW, however, as a representation of the sages' seal.

Now that I've actually seen this picture, the Triforce at the top indicates it doesn't represent the Sages' seal. It indicates that Ganon is bathed in light from the Triforce, symbolising his possession of the Triforce's power. Where on earth did you get the impression of a pyramid from?

There is no timeline, then?

That's a straw man argument. The timeline is a series of interpretations based on official evidence, whereas your current argument is based on unofficial evidence.

As for pyramid seals appearing in the original game: what's THIS:

http://www.zeldalege...l_b-sealing.jpg

Not that the pyramid seal on Ganon isn't drafted by a Japanese artist in any case.

It depicts the pyramid as a focus for the Sages' magic in containing the Dark World, not that the Dark World is contained within that pyramid. The Four Sword, on the other hand, is clearly contained within the pyramid, as both the sword and pedestal have clearly not left the Four Sword Sanctuary.

When? Give an exact quote, otherwise I call bullshit.

Some call our realm a world of shadows, but that makes it sound unpleasant... The twilight there holds a serene beauty... You have seen it yourself as the sun sets on this world. Bathed in that light, all people were pure and gentle... But things changed once that foul power pervaded the world...

In short, the Twili had settled down to a life of peace long before Ganondorf invaded the Twilight Realm. That is unless you are arguing that it took less than a few days for the Twili to settle down.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Now that I've actually seen this picture, the Triforce at the top indicates it doesn't represent the Sages' seal. It indicates that Ganon is bathed in light from the Triforce, symbolising his possession of the Triforce's power. Where on earth did you get the impression of a pyramid from?

I always saw it as indicating the Sacred Realm (the top half, with the golden skies and the Triforce) and Hyrule (the bottom half, with mountains and lakes), and Ganon sealed (in the center). This stained-glass image is surrounded by those of the six sages, contained in the room in which the Master Sword is housed. I see no reason why it should represent anything besides the sages' seal, with which the Master Sword assisted.

It depicts the pyramid as a focus for the Sages' magic in containing the Dark World, not that the Dark World is contained within that pyramid. The Four Sword, on the other hand, is clearly contained within the pyramid, as both the sword and pedestal have clearly not left the Four Sword Sanctuary.

Do you not see the void of the Dark World inside of the pyramid? XD

In short, the Twili had settled down to a life of peace long before Ganondorf invaded the Twilight Realm. That is unless you are arguing that it took less than a few days for the Twili to settle down.

Ganondorf was executed years after OoT, no?

[MikePetersSucks]

Oh yeah, and MPS, can you post your Onmyoji theory?

Crap, I'm sorry, I forgot all about you. I'll get right to that after I type the rest of my post.

What about TWW?

http://www.zeldalege...glass_ganon.png

I wasn't talking about TWW, I was talking about LTTP. But even so, it's clearly supposed to be the light of the Triforce.

You're going to have to explain this if you're going to throw around Japanese terms as if they're common knowledge.

I figured after a while that "Kekkai", atleast, was. Anyway, Kekkai are basically like sheildl or barriers (and ever "spirit barrier" in dubbed anime you've probably seen, like Inuyasha, is one) but they have special considerations that the normal idea of a barrier doesn't have. They could be average-looking shields, such as the one over the Four Sword in FSA's ending, or they could be the fog around PH's Ghost Ship, or they could be the barrier around Hyrule Castle that's appeared oft in the series. However, they are often maintained by spiritual power, and have the philosophical notion that the inside and outside of a Kekkai constitute different worlds in of themselves, even if spatially, that is not the case. A considerably powerful spiritual being could control reality within a Kekkai if they were so inclined, which is what makes Bellum so immensely dangerous. He's a couple steps away from godhood with all the force he's consumed.

Vaati is not as large a threat as Ganon. The seal has already failed twice. It's an additional precaution.

Again, why not have done it FROM THE BEGINNING?

I always saw it as indicating the Sacred Realm (the top half, with the golden skies and the Triforce) and Hyrule (the bottom half, with mountains and lakes), and Ganon sealed (in the center). This stained-glass image is surrounded by those of the six sages, contained in the room in which the Master Sword is housed. I see no reason why it should represent anything besides the sages' seal, with which the Master Sword assisted.

Even if that was the case, it's not a pyramid, especially not a literal one. It's a moot issue.

Do you not see the void of the Dark World inside of the pyramid? XD

I took that to mean that darkness was starting to flow out of the various portals to the realm in LTTP, and so they erected Pyramid-style seals over it, then kind've squished them down into the blue plates we see.

Ganondorf was executed years after OoT, no?

And the Twili were sealed centuries, if not millenia, before.

Now, on to Onmyoji.

Onmyoji, or Tao Masters, are essentially one of the ultimate classes of magic workers in Japanese myth. They could divine the future, consort with gods, bind spirits to their will, and even in some cases, alter reality (such as Abe no Seimei, who was able to alter history to make his life more favorable.)

http://en.wikipedia....:Abe_Seimei.jpg Compare Abe no Seimei to Zant's appearance and garb, and you'll no doubt see similarities. Although the idea of Zant being a jester has been kicked around, I don't believe it. Why else would he believe he were supposed to have the throne instead of Midna? If he were that arrogant, what's he doing degrading himself for the entertainment of others? He must have been some sort of nobility, but he's clearly not royalty or he would have legitimate claim to the throne.

So compared with his abilities, appearance, and personality, I think it likely he is Hyrule's counterpart of an Onmyoji, whom in traditional courts would hold the court if there were no suitable royal heir, such as it being only princesses, no children left at all, or maybe they're too young. Midna is quite clearly young, and perhaps not accepted as an adult yet, or perhaps there's a bit of a patriarchal trend to Twili society. We can't really speculate, but we do know that Zant WOULD have gotten the throne, but was passed up because of his madness. Thus, he prayed to the gods in anger (expecting results, even though his entire species is kind've on the bad side of the gawds, and guardian deities don't really answer that sort of prayer; that's noteworthy) and lo, he got Ganondorf, bonded with him, and was able to weild his power. With Ganondorf's power of darkness, he was able to use his Onmyoji powers to twist the balance of Light and Shadow, twisting Ying and Yang. He was, with the power of his bound deity, warping the Tao.

He was able to control and bind spirits and corrupted Twili, as we saw, and he was even able to warp reality during his bossfight, and could even erect pretty amazingly powerful Kekkai (though of course, how much is Ganondorf's power and how much is his own is of course uncertain) In the end, though, he seems to hold a spiritual presence even after his death, and used his bond to take his god with him. It is truly an Onmyoji feat to slay a god.

Agahnim could also be considered an Onmyoji for much of the same reasons. I won't reiterate, because people have noted similarities already into the ground. Most significant is that he was the king's top adviser and wizard, like Onmyoji tend to be, and had legitimate claim to the throne after the King's demise. Of course, Agahnim was called the Successor of the Sages, meaning that he was considered by the Hyrulians to also be an Arahitogami, but Abe no Seimei was both, as well.

[Impossible]

Impossible: Absolutely nothing even attaches Ganon in ALttP to the Imprisoning War on even a surface level, now that the only references to this have been removed from the manual. Saying "they did it to save space" is rather useless; they did not trim down the LoZ or AoL manual stories at all, even in the Japanese.

Maybe you should play the GBA version of ALttP again, or go through the translated script. I have, of course, posted the exact quotes that prove you're wrong before in the last topic about this, but I see no reason why I need to dig them up again. Either go find them in whichever topic it was, or go read everything the maidens say. They explicitly (note: not implicit, EXPLICIT) tell you about the involvement of Ganon in those events.

And given that the ALttP manual story was several times longer than the LoZ and AoL manual stories, trying to use the fact that they weren't changed is a pretty poor argument. Nintendo always keep their stories to two manual pages now. I seem to recall AoL's backstory being abridged in the Classic NES version, too.

Thanks for that, MPS. I think I'll combine that with the posts you already made that specifically related that to TP's ending. Unless you can add to that an explanation that goes into the bond between Zant and Ganondorf, and their abilities to revive each other, which is really what I'm looking for. But wow, I had no idea how strong the evidence for this theory was. It definitely seems like what was intended.

Edited by Impossible, 06 September 2008 - 07:52 PM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

I wasn't talking about TWW, I was talking about LTTP. But even so, it's clearly supposed to be the light of the Triforce.

Not the seal on Ganon as he's being sealed in the world of the Triforce?

I figured after a while that "Kekkai", atleast, was. Anyway, Kekkai are basically like sheildl or barriers (and ever "spirit barrier" in dubbed anime you've probably seen, like Inuyasha, is one) but they have special considerations that the normal idea of a barrier doesn't have. They could be average-looking shields, such as the one over the Four Sword in FSA's ending, or they could be the fog around PH's Ghost Ship, or they could be the barrier around Hyrule Castle that's appeared oft in the series. However, they are often maintained by spiritual power, and have the philosophical notion that the inside and outside of a Kekkai constitute different worlds in of themselves, even if spatially, that is not the case. A considerably powerful spiritual being could control reality within a Kekkai if they were so inclined, which is what makes Bellum so immensely dangerous. He's a couple steps away from godhood with all the force he's consumed.

So how does this exclude it from being a seal that traps the Four Sword in the Sacred Realm?

Again, why not have done it FROM THE BEGINNING?

A good question.

Ask the story writers.

I took that to mean that darkness was starting to flow out of the various portals to the realm in LTTP, and so they erected Pyramid-style seals over it, then kind've squished them down into the blue plates we see.

Like the pyramid-style seal in FSA.

And the Twili were sealed centuries, if not millenia, before.

Proof?

They explicitly (note: not implicit, EXPLICIT) tell you about the involvement of Ganon in those events.

Never, ever, ever.

They talk about Ganon's threat now, and about how Ganon entered the Sacred Realm but couldn't escape, but neither of these need be related to the Imprisoning War, especially not if it's supposed to be OoT and TWW exists.

And given that the ALttP manual story was several times longer than the LoZ and AoL manual stories, trying to use the fact that they weren't changed is a pretty poor argument.

It's now several times shorter. Why not make it as long as the LoZ/AoL stories?

I seem to recall AoL's backstory being abridged in the Classic NES version, too.

In English, not in Japanese.

[MikePetersSucks]

Thanks for that, MPS. I think I'll combine that with the posts you already made that specifically related that to TP's ending. Unless you can add to that an explanation that goes into the bond between Zant and Ganondorf, and their abilities to revive each other, which is really what I'm looking for. But wow, I had no idea how strong the evidence for this theory was. It definitely seems like what was intended.

Well, the bond between them is pretty orthodox in all sorts of fictions. "If one of us lives, we both do, if one of us gains power, we both do." They created a spiritual link that intertwined their destinies. Then Zant went "IN YO FAEC" and terminated his revival, killing Ganondorf. And yes, there's lots of Japanese aspects in the Zelda series. It's been very strong and prominent since LTTP. Apparently, the Christian symbolism didn't go well with the target audiences.

Not the seal on Ganon as he's being sealed in the world of the Triforce?

Of course not.

So how does this exclude it from being a seal that traps the Four Sword in the Sacred Realm?

Because a kekkai doesn't alter spatial relations. And, as noted, doing so is not only stupid and unwise from the Maiden's position, but also contradictory to the facts.

Like the pyramid-style seal in FSA.

Not really. The LTTP images are purely imagery, and are obviously not literal representations. I was just throwing out an unfounded theory.

Proof?

The backstory.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Of course not.

But the power of the Triforce, despite the fact that it's featured in the center of the six sages that sealed Ganon and in the presence of the Master Sword that defeated him?

Because a kekkai doesn't alter spatial relations. And, as noted, doing so is not only stupid and unwise from the Maiden's position, but also contradictory to the facts.

1) Except as depicted in ALttP media.
2) Contradictory to what facts, exactly?

Not really. The LTTP images are purely imagery, and are obviously not literal representations.

Nice convenient excuse.

The backstory.

Specifies that it's been long enough for the original Shadow Clan to have descendants of Midna's age, but that's really about 16-20 years at the least.

[Raien]

I think MPS has said all that needs to be said. The nature and function of FSA's pyramid seal is as a barrier that prevents people from removing the Four Sword, thus releasing Ganon. The Four Sword and pedestal do not appear to be removed from the Four Sword Sanctuary, and MPS confirms that it is Kekkai, which does not affect spatial dimensions. From this alone, we can determine that ALTTP's pyramid seal has a completely different nature and function, existing as the focus for the Sages' magic in containing the Dark World's evil power. In TWW's picture, the position of the Triforce at the top of the golden triangle clearly denotes that it is the source of a beam of light.

Because a kekkai doesn't alter spatial relations.

1) Except as depicted in ALttP media.

Lol, the fact that ALTTP must be an exception to the defined rules of mythology because your theory requires it to be just shows how little justification your argument actually has.

He was able to control and bind spirits and corrupted Twili, as we saw, and he was even able to warp reality during his bossfight, and could even erect pretty amazingly powerful Kekkai (though of course, how much is Ganondorf's power and how much is his own is of course uncertain) In the end, though, he seems to hold a spiritual presence even after his death, and used his bond to take his god with him. It is truly an Onmyoji feat to slay a god.

MPS, how likely do you think it is that Ganondorf's death forced Zant's death? Zant says that Ganondorf will revive him as long as he lives, but with both dead, wouldn't that force them both into the afterlife?

Edited by Raian, 07 September 2008 - 06:35 AM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

The nature and function of FSA's pyramid seal is as a barrier that prevents people from removing the Four Sword, thus releasing Ganon.
[...]From this alone, we can determine that ALTTP's pyramid seal has a completely different nature and function, existing as the focus for the Sages' magic in containing the Dark World's evil power. In TWW's picture, the position of the Triforce at the top of the golden triangle clearly denotes that it is the source of a beam of light.

1) FSA's pyramid seal is a barrier that prevents people from releasing Ganon from the Four Sword; ALttP's is a barrier that prevents Ganon from being released from the Sacred Realm. Or, conversely; FSA's pyramid seal is the focus for the maidens' magic in containing the Four Sword within the Dark World. I fail to see how this either is an invalid interpretation; it takes the one seal in the context of the other.

2) The position of the Triforce in the golden skies more obviously denotes the Sacred Realm. The six sages surround Ganon and are sealing him in the Sacred Realm.

Lol, the fact that ALTTP must be an exception to the defined rules of mythology because your theory requires it to be just shows how little justification your argument actually has.

Excuse me? Because the pyramid seal in ALttP has been determined by amateur theorists to be different than an otherwise identical one in FSA I'm defying the rules of mythology?

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 07 September 2008 - 10:26 AM.

[Raien]

2) The position of the Triforce in the golden skies more obviously denotes the Sacred Realm. The six sages surround Ganon and are sealing him in the Sacred Realm.

1) The Triforce takes up half the picture and is physically connected to the triangle that contains Ganon; to argue that it's only purpose is to denote the Sacred Realm is trivialising it's clear existence in the picture. Even if the golden skies do denote the Sacred Realm, it doesn't change the fact that the Triforce can be seen to be physically interacting with Ganon.

2) The Sages do not surround Ganon, nor do they visibly interact with him. The Sages surround the Master Sword at the centre of the room, which makes more sense given that the Master Sword is holding the seal on Ganon's magic.

3) How many times does it need to be said that the triangle is clearly not a pyramid? I would have thought the artists would have known how to draw a pyramid if they meant to draw one.

Excuse me? Because the pyramid seal in ALttP has been determined by amateur theorists to be different than an otherwise identical one in FSA I'm defying the rules of mythology?

This isn't about MPS's abilities as a theorist so much as about his knowledge of Japanese mythology, which from the information I've gathered far outweighs your own. The nature of Kekkai means is that it doesn't alter space, and since we can visibly see the Four Sword has not left the pedestal which was built for it in the Four Sword Sanctuary, we can determine the shield is Kekkai and that the Four Sword has not been transported to the Dark World.

But even if MPS didn't bring his knowledge into this debate, we can see for ourselves that the pyramid seal depicted in ALTTP does not physically relate to the seal on the Dark World. The Dark World is a mirror reflection of Hyrule, and thus the barrier would expand over Hyrule's geographical plain. The pyramid, which has always been a symbol of containment, would be a perfect object to focus the Sages' magic on the seal, but it clearly is not a literal depiction of the seal itself. It never appears in the game, nor is it referenced in the game.

Edited by Raian, 07 September 2008 - 03:38 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

MPS, how likely do you think it is that Ganondorf's death forced Zant's death? Zant says that Ganondorf will revive him as long as he lives, but with both dead, wouldn't that force them both into the afterlife?

It could go either way. But personally, it looked like Zant snapped his neck, or whatever, and THEN Ganondorf died, meaning it was probably a pact that required both of them to live. And I just love the idea of Zant going "IN YO FAEC" because it makes me giggle.

Excuse me? Because the pyramid seal in ALttP has been determined by amateur theorists to be different than an otherwise identical one in FSA I'm defying the rules of mythology?

Lol, you're one to talk.

This isn't about MPS's abilities as a theorist so much as about his knowledge of Japanese mythology, which from the information I've gathered far outweighs your own. The nature of Kekkai means is that it doesn't alter space, and since we can visibly see the Four Sword has not left the pedestal which was built for it in the Four Sword Sanctuary, we can determine the shield is Kekkai and that the Four Sword has not been transported to the Dark World.

And seals have been directly called "kekkai" in actual game text, further justifying the connection.

2) Contradictory to what facts, exactly?

Your idea: Ganon the Demon was sealed inside a sword, which was sent to the Sacred Realm. He got out and taked'd'd the Triforce and went "HAR HAR HAR I WIN." Seal gets made.

The facts: Ganondorf the thief stumbles in with his men. Kills them, seizes the Triforce with blood-stained hands, turns into Ganon the Demon, can't figure out how to get out, the Sages go "LOL PWNED" and erect a seal.

[wring]

I don't get what you guys are debating. The creators have said Ocarina of Time is the Seal War. Unless you have another quote contradicting that, then Ocarina of Time is the seal war. Any type of plothole created is just a plothole because humans arn't perfect.

[Impossible]

I don't get what you guys are debating. The creators have said Ocarina of Time is the Seal War. Unless you have another quote contradicting that, then Ocarina of Time is the seal war. Any type of plothole created is just a plothole because humans arn't perfect.

Speaking in absolutes like that is ridiculous and unfair. Yes, they said that, but they said it 10 years ago. They also said OoT is first, and we don't have to believe that's the case now, either. Things change. Things that were true, but have never been reinforced or reasserted, stop being true if the people who said them no longer consider them to be true. And games like TWW and FSA suggest that the developers no longer consider OoT to be the IW, because they've completely separated OoT's Ganon from ALttP's Ganon. The timeline has most certainly changed - hell, back then, there wasn't even a split timeline. The fact is, what the developers said then is NOT true anymore, because what they meant at the time is that Ganondorf was sealed in the Sacred Realm/Dark World OoT, i.e. the Imprisoning/Seal War, and then hundreds of years later, tried to break his seal in ALttP. This is factually no longer the case, because TWW is now where ALttP used to be, which means the circumstances surrounding Ganon, Hyrule, the Master Sword and other details have changed vastly. Which means that to put ALttP after TWW requires a large amount of fan fiction, suggesting things that the developers are yet to ever imply happens in any Zelda game.

FSA has much of the same effect, as it seems to imply that the Imprisoning War hasn't happened yet. The maidens don't know who Ganon is. Ganondorf makes a name for himself in that game, and not before, because he starts out just as a Gerudo. The Knights of Hyrule haven't died out yet and Ganon hasn't taken over Hyrule before. But it's a prequel to ALttP. The fact is, TWW and FSA didn't exist when the developers said that - they were saying that OoT led directly to ALttP. And factually, this is not the case anymore.

And your last sentence just suggests that you're not familiar with the magnitude of the plotholes and contradictions. It's not them being imperfect, it's them retconning the timeline. Aonuma cares more about story than Miyamoto, so he revamped the timeline in a way that would allow him to do new stories like TWW, without caring about the older games. That's why so many recent games have been doing more and more to allow for the first four Zelda games to stand alone - that way, nothing that they want to do with the story or setting in any future game will interfere with them. For example, they can completely destroy Hyrule, if it suits the game, and that's exactly what they did.

Even if you want to say that OoT is still the IW, you can't just say that that's the case and be done with it. Hell, look at Lex's argument, which hardly even resembles calling OoT the IW directly, due to the fact that even he knows that many of the events of the IW still CAN'T have happened until after FSA, and hence long after OoT. He's redefined what the IW is and what ALttP's backstory is altogether, which sure as hell goes against creator intent just as much as saying OoT isn't the IW is. You still need to provide a WAY for OoT to be the IW. Because, yes, 10 years ago, it definitely was. But looking at TWW, ALttP on the GBA, and FSA, I see no signs at all of any intent for OoT's adult events to lead to ALttP anymore. They were there in OoT, but they've disappeared from games under Aonuma's lead, and moreover, he's gone in just the opposite direction by REPLACING ALttP with TWW, and replacing the origins of ALttP Ganon with FSA.

Considering Aonuma's approach to story, as well as to the timeline, it's entirely logical for him to have retconned something when he took over the series. After all, why do you think Nintendo won't tell us what the timeline is? Because they don't want anything to be set in stone. They don't want to be forced into making games in specific settings or points in the story. They do it so they can make completely different games like TWW, that retcon the story massively. That's the case no matter which timeline you believe in, because it's undeniable that Hyrule sure as hell wasn't meant to be flooded after OoT prior to that. It was never intended before, but the timeline was retconned, the events after OoT were retconned, and OoT's relationship with ALttP was retconned as a result, because TWW replaced it. The timeline changes because the individual games are more important than always fitting every game into a consistent overall plot, which comes afterwards.

And I'm fairly sure there's an interview about that somewhere, where it was mentioned that they don't want to be making games based on expectations people have because of the timeline. I just can't remember when it was... But as long as they're keeping it secret, there are times when things will change, and trying to apply a ten-year-old argument is just stupid, as you're blindly arguing in the face of overwhelming evidence. The original four Zelda games are no longer relevant to the story stemming from OoT, because they were just getting in the way. You can't blame Nintendo for outright ignoring them when they made games like TWW, but the fact that they DID ignore them is why we have every reason to say that OoT is no longer the IW. If Nintendo had said in the last five years that it is, the argument might be a bit more likely, but they haven't. Because recent Zelda games were clearly NOT made with OoT leading into ALttP in mind. (Although there are hints in TP of leading into ALttP.) For example, and this is just one of many examples, if they really wanted OoT to be ALttP's backstory, they would NOT have killed off OoT's Ganon - specifically, dumping the one who was involved in those events at the bottom of the ocean, completely mortal, with a sword stuck in his head. There are so many things they could have done to maintain the OoT-ALttP connection, but instead, they've refused to hint at it, and have deliberately contradicted it at every turn.

And really, it's one reason and one piece of evidence. FS being before OoT doesn't have more supporting it than that, but it only has a couple of discountable contradictions, which are enough for us to say that Aonuma was mistaken, just four years ago. Yet we're going to take a quote that's 10 years ago, and several years BEFORE the major revamping of the timeline under Aonuma (and the addition of the Child Timeline, which didn't exist when that placement was decided), which has pages upon pages of contradictions (see: my document), as gospel?

Edited by Impossible, 08 September 2008 - 02:58 AM.

[Raien]

And I'm fairly sure there's an interview about that somewhere, where it was mentioned that they don't want to be making games based on expectations people have because of the timeline. I just can't remember when it was...

I can vouch for the existence of this interview, even though I too don't remember where it was.

[wring]

you guys are starting to make it sound like fs/fsa is thefirst game in the series. Ganondorf is unheard of, it happens before the Imprisoning War, and Ganon doesn't exsist before that game. Maybe the Trident of Power thing was supposed to explain how Ganondorf is able to turn into Ganon? So maybe that interview that placed Four Sword series first is actually correct. I haven't played it yet, but you guys really make it sound like that. It also explains the origins of Dark Link.

Oh and I have a theory about a Link to the Past. Maybe its the same link and Zelda as Ocarina of Time. The game doesn't list how much time passes between the IW, and A LInk to the Past. I still think the events becoming Legend is a reference to the time travel in Ocarina of Time. Now i know about the Sage's descendants, but what if they are descendants of the Original sages who built the temples, not the descendants of Ocarina of Time's sages. It could be placed directly after Majora's Mask, with the same Link and Zelda. The only problem is Ganon is still sealed in the Dark Realm, but you could explain that with a number of things. Maybe in the new timeline, Ganon did get stuck in the Sacred Realm, without any seal. Then Ganon finds out about the Seal in the alternate timeline, and descides to find descendants of sages and use their magic to find a way out of the Sacred Realm. If they could seal him there, they could help him find a way out.

[Raien]

Ocarina of Time took place in the age of the Hylians. In ALTTP, the Hylian race had died out. So the two games must take place centuries apart.

[MikePetersSucks]

you guys are starting to make it sound like fs/fsa is thefirst game in the series. Ganondorf is unheard of, it happens before the Imprisoning War, and Ganon doesn't exsist before that game.

Who the hell said that? People can forget shit, as TWW proves.

It also explains the origins of Dark Link.

No, it doesn't. Each time we see Dark Link, he has a different origin and reason for existing.

Oh and I have a theory about a Link to the Past. Maybe its the same link and Zelda as Ocarina of Time.

Impossible.

The game doesn't list how much time passes between the IW, and A LInk to the Past.

Um...yea, but it's pretty obvious that it's centuries, since no one remembers the exact events and the Maidens are considered "of the Sage's ancient lineage."

I still think the events becoming Legend is a reference to the time travel in Ocarina of Time.

Even though it's not, because time travel doesn't magically turn stuff into legends.

Now i know about the Sage's descendants, but what if they are descendants of the Original sages who built the temples, not the descendants of Ocarina of Time's sages.

The reason the Maidens were so important was that they were the descendants of the Sages that sealed Ganon. That's why sacrificing them broke the seal.

The only problem is Ganon is still sealed in the Dark Realm, but you could explain that with a number of things. Maybe in the new timeline, Ganon did get stuck in the Sacred Realm, without any seal. Then Ganon finds out about the Seal in the alternate timeline, and descides to find descendants of sages and use their magic to find a way out of the Sacred Realm. If they could seal him there, they could help him find a way out.

Yea, like the Sages would ever help Ganon. The idea here is that their mere presence in the Dark World is enough to break the Seal. Infact, we know it's true, as once Agahnim sacrifices Zelda, the seal is broken.

[Impossible]

you guys are starting to make it sound like fs/fsa is thefirst game in the series. Ganondorf is unheard of, it happens before the Imprisoning War, and Ganon doesn't exsist before that game.

Who the hell said that? People can forget shit, as TWW proves.

Of course, for people to forget shit and have it randomly reappear and disappear from knowledge again with every damn game, is a much bigger problem than simply forgetting something, and such is the insanity in TWW->TMC->FS/FSA. People forget stuff, but the whole basis of the AOST is that it's rediscovered again. And, without a doubt, the maidens should know who Ganondorf is, if the IW has happened... Especially given that FSA has ALttP's Ganon.

There's actually plausibility on the Child Timeline, because when FSA came out, there was never any evidence of Ganondorf achieving infamy on the Child Timeline. And even in TP, nobody even notices that he's there, so he could be very easily forgotten. On the Adult Timeline, his role in 7 years of Hylian history is so incredibly prevalent that it's one of the ONLY things that was still remembered after the flood. It was never forgotten.

Oh yeah, and the other problem is, if OoT is the IW, than the maiden in ALttP are telling you the events from OoT. Even though these were completely unknown when Ganon appeared in FSA.

Edited by Impossible, 09 September 2008 - 05:48 AM.