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I'm working on my first timeline!


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#31 Showsni

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Posted 24 August 2008 - 04:16 PM

The best way to work out the Zelda timeline is to look at how it has developed with each new game. If you look at how each game fits with a previous title, the timeline looks something like this.


Yeah, that's how I got mine.

LoZ

SZ > LoZ > AoL

ALttP > SZ > LoZ > AoL

ALttP > LA/KnS > SZ > LoZ > AoL

ALttP > LA/KnS > SZ > LoZ > AoL > OoT

ALttP > LA/KnS > SZ > LoZ > AoL > OoT > MM

ALttP > LA/KnS > SZ > LoZ > AoL > Oracles > OoT > MM

ALttP > LA/KnS > SZ > LoZ > AoL > Oracles > OoT > MM > TWW

ALttP > LA/KnS > SZ > LoZ > AoL > Oracles > OoT > MM > TWW
--------------------------------------------------------------(TP)

ALttP > LA/KnS > SZ > LoZ > AoL > Oracles > OoT > MM > TWW > PH
--------------------------------------------------------------(TP)

Now, TMC > FS > FSA should be after SZ and before TWW. So either between SZ and LoZ to give LoZ Ganon an origin story, or between Oracles and OoT so they don't mess with the triforce.


#32 wring

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 03:03 PM

I haven't gotten very far in he minish cap, but in the intro, when it first mentions the light force it shows a Triforce and the picori sword. But it might be something different.

The minish cap is definately the same Link as Ocarina of Time. Everyone from Ocarina of time is in the Minish cap. there is no way there are that many people who get reincarnated.

http://zelda.wikia.c..._Zelda_Timeline

The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventures takes place "years" (according to the back of the English box) after Four Swords. Although Aonuma does not state where it stands in relation to the rest of the timeline, many believe it to be a bridge between the newer games in the timeline and the older classics, due to a combination of gameplay melds (i.e. features from both groups are present) and the nature of the storyline; after all, this title sees the human Ganondorf gain his Trident and turn permanently into the blue boar Ganon, wage a campaign strikingly similar to ALttP's 'Imprisoning War', and get himself sealed by a hero who knows how to open the Dark World. As such, several see it as a link between either Twilight Princess or The Wind Waker, and A Link to the Past (and whatever follows).


Also I don't think its that hard to imagine Ganon's followers following a souless mindless monster, because they were serving a dead body in Adventures of Link. They'll serve him no matter what. I'm leaving the timeline the way it is, except Minish Cap will be the same Link as Ocarina of Time and another quote from the same webpage under the Oracles games.

The majority of theorists believe it takes place after A Link to the Past, due to the strikingly similar gameplay elements, perspective and storyline links (Ganon was killed and returns in his ALttP garb, the triforce was recovered from him and so lies united in the Castle, and, if the games are a prequel to Link's Awakening, they may even feature the very same Link from the SNES title, which would retain LA's reputation as its sequel).

#33 Showsni

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 03:28 PM

But Hyrule in TMC and in OoT is completely different. I don't normally use geography as a major point, but if there's only a year or less seperating two games you'd expect there to be some similarities. Link's suddenly got a new grandfather, the temple of time has vanished, Death Mountain has been replaced, the castle's undergone a total remodelling and been removed from the town, the Gerudos are gone, Link's lost his hat, the Kokiri have vanished, etc, etc. They can't be direct sequels - it doesn't match up at all. Yes, there have been a lot of character's reused; but that's simply something we have to live with...

Oh wait, you're doing TMC into OoT? That's even worse! Zelda and Link are childhood friends in TMC, but they don't know each other at the start of OoT! Link lives with his grandfather in TMC, but he's been raised by the Kokiri since he was a baby in OoT! That can't possibly work.


#34 wring

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 07:26 PM

Well I have an explanation for all of that. Link is visiting different parts of Hyrule then he visits in Ocarina of Time. For gameplay reasons they can't show the parts of Hyrule Link doesn't go to. Also, if you think about it, in Ocarina of Time link has never been to many of those places before. As for the Kokiri, that's kind of hard to explain, but I think that Link's Grandfather helps take care of Link after his Mother left him in the Lost Woods. And so Link has two houses, one in the Lost Woods with the other kids whose name I've forgotten, and sometimes he stays with his Grandfather. Also, the reason Link and Zelda meet for the first time in Ocarina of Time is because Minish Cap hadn't been made yet, so MC retcons that part, and they had to introduce Zelda somehow, anyways. But think about it, at the beginning of MC Zelda sneaks past the guards to visit Link, and in Ocarina of Time Link sneaks past the guards to visit Zelda.

I know the mutliple Link theory, and maybe the Multiple Ganon theory might be true, but the multiple everyone in Hyrule theory is kind of stretching it.

#35 Raien

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 04:57 AM

1) The Minish Cap's "Light Force" is a Force Gem; it is actually called "Force" in the Japanese game, which is the word used to refer to Force Gems in Four Swords Adventures and Phantom Hourglass.

2) Four Swords and Four Swords Adventures feature the same Link because the character is introduced as someone who has fought Vaati in the past.

3) Four Swords Adventures ends with Ganon sealed within the Four Sword, whereas A Link to the Past begins with Ganon sealed within the Sacred Realm/Dark World (which, by the way, we know is not the same Dark World as Four Swords Adventures). That is why Four Swords Adventures and A Link to the Past cannot be connected in the timeline.

4) The developers have stated a preference to develop new stories that don't rely heavily on the stories that came before in previous games. This has led to the tradition of setting Zelda games centuries apart, so that previous events become vague legends.

These are the games that we know feature the same Links:
LoZ > AoL
ALTTP > LA
OoT > MM
OoS > OoA
TWW > PH
FS > FSA

Otherwise, these pairs of games take place centuries apart from each other.

#36 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 01:03 PM

I haven't gotten very far in he minish cap, but in the intro, when it first mentions the light force it shows a Triforce and the picori sword. But it might be something different.


The Light Force is effectively an uber Force Gem, as has been noted above. PH pretty much tells us that all beings have a life "force", and the more you have, the more powerful. The Minish gave the Hyrulian Family Line BUTTLOADS of "force", effectively making them gods.

The minish cap is definately the same Link as Ocarina of Time. Everyone from Ocarina of time is in the Minish cap. there is no way there are that many people who get reincarnated.


Explain how Link has a family, how Link and Zelda know each other, how the entire country is reshaped, how Ganondorf is nowhere to be found, how no one remembers the events of Minish Cap in Ocarina of Time, etc.

EVERYONE is reincarnated. The Zelda Universe is one that uses reincarnation instead of Heaven/Hell.

http://zelda.wikia.c..._Zelda_Timeline


That Wiki is horribly maintained, I'm not trusting it for shit.

Also I don't think its that hard to imagine Ganon's followers following a souless mindless monster, because they were serving a dead body in Adventures of Link.


Trying to revive your Master isn't the same as your Master being, effectively, a fanged retard. Even still, you don't address how this mindless beast could COMMAND them.

(Ganon was killed and returns in his ALttP garb, the triforce was recovered from him and so lies united in the Castle


The Triforce isn't in any of the FSA games whatsoever, not even as backround info.

Well I have an explanation for all of that. Link is visiting different parts of Hyrule then he visits in Ocarina of Time. For gameplay reasons they can't show the parts of Hyrule Link doesn't go to. Also, if you think about it, in Ocarina of Time link has never been to many of those places before. As for the Kokiri, that's kind of hard to explain, but I think that Link's Grandfather helps take care of Link after his Mother left him in the Lost Woods. And so Link has two houses, one in the Lost Woods with the other kids whose name I've forgotten, and sometimes he stays with his Grandfather.


According to OOT, Link has never left Kokiri Forest before. A Kokiri dies if they leave the Deku Tree's domain, and Link believes himself to be one of their kind. He only leaves because the Deku Tree sends him out to find his destiny. Having him make periodic trips outside is STUPID.

Please, for the love of Nayru, play. The. Games.

Also, the reason Link and Zelda meet for the first time in Ocarina of Time is because Minish Cap hadn't been made yet, so MC retcons that part, and they had to introduce Zelda somehow, anyways.


If you're just gonna explain away everything wrong with a theory with "retcon", then why timeline at all? Fine then, Retcon. TWW is the first in the series, then OOT, then TP, then MM, then TMC, then FSA, then AOL, then OOX, then LOZ. Retcon retcon retcon retcon.

But think about it, at the beginning of MC Zelda sneaks past the guards to visit Link, and in Ocarina of Time Link sneaks past the guards to visit Zelda.


No she didn't. She had permission to go out and enjoy the festival so long as Link was with her.

I know the mutliple Link theory, and maybe the Multiple Ganon theory might be true, but the multiple everyone in Hyrule theory is kind of stretching it.


Tough shit. Reincarnation is canonical.

#37 bjamez7573

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 08:53 PM

3) Four Swords Adventures ends with Ganon sealed within the Four Sword, whereas A Link to the Past begins with Ganon sealed within the Sacred Realm/Dark World (which, by the way, we know is not the same Dark World as Four Swords Adventures). That is why Four Swords Adventures and A Link to the Past cannot be connected in the timeline.


However, the palace of the Four Sword in the ALTTP remake is located in the Sacred Realm, so it could be the same place. That's if you consider the palace of the Four Sword to be canon, lol ^.^

These are the games that we know feature the same Links:
LOZ > AoL
ALTTP > LA
OoT > MM
OOS > OOA
TWW > PH
FS > FSA


How do you know that the LA Link is same as ALTTP? I didn't find anything in the manual or game to indicate that. Although it does say he fulfilled his role as the legendary hero, that could also be talking about what he did in LOZ or OOX. I don't think that its a sequal to ALTTP's just because it came out close together. From what I see, it is more likely that it follows OOX because the ending scene after you finish the linked game shows him leaving on a sailboat, which is the perfect setting for LA.

#38 Impossible

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 12:06 AM

Aside from the fact that Nintendo always release their direct sequels a couple of years after the original game, there are obvious enough references to ALttP - like the Nightmare taking the forms of two of Link's nightmares; ALttP's Ganon and Agahnim. The official Japanese site for LA also says that it's a sequel to ALttP. It's very obvious what was intended.

#39 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 01:02 PM

However, the palace of the Four Sword in the ALTTP remake is located in the Sacred Realm, so it could be the same place. That's if you consider the palace of the Four Sword to be canon, lol


Doesn't really matter, because the remake STILL says that Ganon(dorf) was a desert thief who scored it lucky.

How do you know that the LA Link is same as ALTTP? I didn't find anything in the manual or game to indicate that. Although it does say he fulfilled his role as the legendary hero, that could also be talking about what he did in LOZ or OOX. I don't think that its a sequal to ALTTP's just because it came out close together. From what I see, it is more likely that it follows OOX because the ending scene after you finish the linked game shows him leaving on a sailboat, which is the perfect setting for LA.


1) Everything Impossible said.
2) It's not even the same goddamned boat. OOX rode a horse at the beginning, does that mean he's OOT Link too?
3) The LA guide says that Link defeated Ganon, whom was terrorizing Hyrule. OOX Ganon wasn't even terrorizing anyone yet, much less Hyrule.

#40 wring

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Posted 30 August 2008 - 08:42 PM

Ok I beat the Minish Cap and...
Spoiler : click to show/hide
Zelda wished away all the monsters?? WHY ZELDA, WHY?? Now how am I going to place the game on a timeline with an ending like THAT? :(


Anyways, I thought about it, and A Link to the Past and Four Sword Adventure should be placed on the Adult Timeline, because the Seven Sages and the Dark Realm don't exsist in the Child Timeline. Unfortunately, Hyrule is under water in the Adult Timeline, too, which needs to be explained how it got unflooded. Last time we saw it in Phantom Hourglass, it was still an ocean. But I'll just go with the Great Deku Tree did it. Maybe it should go like this.
Child
OoT/MM>TP
Adult
OoT>WW/PH>MC>FS/FSA>LttP/LA>OoA/OoS>LoZ/AoL

I still have no idea where to place the Minish Cap since the ending and the beginning and the middle don't really fit into any of the other games. So I'm just placing it there. It'd help if the Hero of Men was mentioned in another game somewhere.

#41 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 02:14 PM

Zelda wished away all the monsters?? WHY ZELDA, WHY?? Now how am I going to place the game on a timeline with an ending like THAT?


Only the monsters freed from the chest. It's not like it contained ALL MONSTERS IN THE WHOLE GODDAMN WORLD, and since FS and FSA are MC's sequels, we know there are still going to be monsters.

Anyways, I thought about it, and A Link to the Past and Four Sword Adventure should be placed on the Adult Timeline, because the Seven Sages and the Dark Realm don't exsist in the Child Timeline


Er....yea, they do.

Child
OoT/MM>TP
Adult
OoT>WW/PH>MC>FS/FSA>LttP/LA>OoA/OoS>LoZ/AoL


Put everything after WW/PH after TP and the timeline works a LOT better, trust me.

#42 wring

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 09:21 PM

I know, I've been going back and forth between which side of the timeline to put those games. The actual games themselves don't really give any hints about which side of the timeline they go on. I figure if I put them behind WW there's a ton of plotholes, and if I put them behind Twilight Princess there's still a ton of plotholes (Ganondorf is dead). So then I thought about it.

The Dark Realm was created from Ganondorf touching the Triforce which happens in the Adult Timeline. The Seven Sages Sealing Ganondorf only happens in the Adult Timeline (I don't think Four Sword Adventure counts). And the cities in Adventures of Link are named after the Seven Sages which awakened in the Adult Timeline. (Minus Zelda)

Now on the Child Timeline side, we only have six Sages. The Sages seal Ganondorf inside the Twilight Realm, not the Sacred Realm. Sage Zelda is nowhere to be found. And the Sages look nothing like their Ocarina of Time counterparts.

That's why I decided they fit better on the Adult Timeline. But hopefully the new Zelda clears this up (I doubt it).

Edited by wring, 31 August 2008 - 09:21 PM.


#43 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 11:34 PM

I know, I've been going back and forth between which side of the timeline to put those games. The actual games themselves don't really give any hints about which side of the timeline they go on. I figure if I put them behind WW there's a ton of plotholes, and if I put them behind Twilight Princess there's still a ton of plotholes (Ganondorf is dead). So then I thought about it.


Ganondorf is dead? That's hardly a plothole. He's died more than once, and has come back more than once without needing a resurrection ritual. He simply reincarnated like everyone else, if need be.

The Dark Realm was created from Ganondorf touching the Triforce which happens in the Adult Timeline. The Seven Sages Sealing Ganondorf only happens in the Adult Timeline (I don't think Four Sword Adventure counts). And the cities in Adventures of Link are named after the Seven Sages which awakened in the Adult Timeline. (Minus Zelda)


Ganondorf touches the Triforce in both timelines, actually. And names being reused are merely an Easter Egg reference and have no timeline bearing.

Now on the Child Timeline side, we only have six Sages. The Sages seal Ganondorf inside the Twilight Realm, not the Sacred Realm. Sage Zelda is nowhere to be found. And the Sages look nothing like their Ocarina of Time counterparts.


The TP Sages tutored Zelda as a child, and she displays Sage-like knowledge and powers. I'm sure she still counts. Besides, why do they need to look like their OOT counterparts? For all we know, in the Child Timeline, the Sages were summoned in a different manner, or after the centuries, the Sages abandoned mortal form. They still have an elemental affinity, such as a Sage of Water, etc.

Plus, it's not like TP's backstory is supposed to be the Imprisoning War, so it doesn't matter.

#44 Impossible

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Posted 01 September 2008 - 04:57 AM

Anyways, I thought about it, and A Link to the Past and Four Sword Adventure should be placed on the Adult Timeline, because the Seven Sages and the Dark Realm don't exsist in the Child Timeline.


Yes they do. In fact, the Child Timeline sages are more consistent with ALttP's. They're depicted as very similar looking old Hylian men. The idea is that on the Adult Timeline, these sages (who were most likely killed by Ganondorf) were replaced with newly awakened sages. I don't know why you're using TP's sages looking totally different as evidence - the fact that they look so different actually makes it fit better with ALttP, if you say there are Hylian sages on that timeline instead.

The general belief of what I call the Child Old Story Timeline is that OoT is NOT the Imprisoning War (anymore, although it originally was supposed to be until TWW screwed with things), so the sealing of Ganon in the Dark World happens later on. This allows us to remove many of the inconsistencies anyway, so that ALttP's backstory actually happened, for the most part, as originally intended. In ALttP's backstory, Ganon was never able to leave the Sacred Realm after entering it, and he also received the entire Triforce for some reason. Putting ALttP after TWW doesn't solve anything, because the Ganon who was sealed in OoT already escaped his seal and was killed in TWW. ALttP has a new Ganon, as introduced in FSA, meaning that the Child Timeline version of the Imprisoning War happens with THAT Ganon.

Of course, some people completely disagree with what I've said, but there are certainly some flaws in the reasoning behind that disagreement - OoT Ganondorf is dead before ALttP. Period. ALttP Ganon is the new Ganon from FSA.

While I'm briefly posting here again, I wanted to ask as a side note, can someone link me to the post that explains the relationship between Ganondorf and Zant in TP? I want to quote it for the next version of my timeline document, and I can't quite remember how it was supposed to work, or what the word for it was.

Edited by Impossible, 01 September 2008 - 05:17 AM.


#45 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 01 September 2008 - 03:02 PM

While I'm briefly posting here again, I wanted to ask as a side note, can someone link me to the post that explains the relationship between Ganondorf and Zant in TP? I want to quote it for the next version of my timeline document, and I can't quite remember how it was supposed to work, or what the word for it was.


You mean my theory of Zant being the Hyrulian equivalent of an Onmyoji?

#46 Impossible

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 06:53 AM

Yes, I wasn't sure who actually posted it. It would be better if you could basically sum up that theory and its implications (i.e. surrounding Ganondorf's death) in one post, because it's kind of all over the place now.

#47 Lexxi Aileron

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 11:09 AM

Random thoughts/questions:

1) The ancient sages seem to be related to the OoT sages (and the TWW sages), based not only on the shared symbology but also on the fact that the ancient sages built the Master Sword (according to TP), that Rauru, one of the Six/Seven, is one of the ancient sages (according to OoT), and that the TWW sages are related to the ones that "infused the blade with the gods' power" (according to TWW). Their roles, depiction, and history overlap on enough points that I think it's safe to say that there is a direct line of sages (not necessarily a literal bloodline) descending from the ancient sages to the OoT sages to the TWW sages, at least. The ancient sages do indeed appear to have been Hylian, with their sage lines passing to the races defending the temples. FSA and ALttP (and debatably AoL) seem to place the sage lineages back in the hands of Hylians (which admittedly leans toward a TP-ALttP order, although not necessarily). In any case, it seems the sage lineages are not necessarily literal bloodlines. Does this sound reasonable?

2) What is the Japanese word used for "force" in FSA/TMC/PH? Is it the same word used in OoT to describe the three "forces"?

3) It is true that most of the evidence for the Imprisoning War relates to the Adult timeline (OoT itself; the AoL town names being the names of the Adult timeline sages- cited courtesy of the developers; etc.); is there any for the Child timeline side? (That is, limited to what we know from OoT, MM, and TP, as everything else is debatable)

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 02 September 2008 - 11:10 AM.


#48 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 01:52 PM

Yes, I wasn't sure who actually posted it. It would be better if you could basically sum up that theory and its implications (i.e. surrounding Ganondorf's death) in one post, because it's kind of all over the place now.


I could. I was offered to write articles for websites, but I didn't really feel right doing it, since it's just my own relatively baseless assumption.

1) The ancient sages seem to be related to the OoT sages (and the TWW sages), based not only on the shared symbology but also on the fact that the ancient sages built the Master Sword (according to TP), that Rauru, one of the Six/Seven, is one of the ancient sages (according to OoT), and that the TWW sages are related to the ones that "infused the blade with the gods' power" (according to TWW). Their roles, depiction, and history overlap on enough points that I think it's safe to say that there is a direct line of sages (not necessarily a literal bloodline) descending from the ancient sages to the OoT sages to the TWW sages, at least. The ancient sages do indeed appear to have been Hylian, with their sage lines passing to the races defending the temples. FSA and ALttP (and debatably AoL) seem to place the sage lineages back in the hands of Hylians (which admittedly leans toward a TP-ALttP order, although not necessarily). In any case, it seems the sage lineages are not necessarily literal bloodlines. Does this sound reasonable?


Totally. The Sages, to me, seemed like Arahitogami, or "Kami who are human beings." They could be worshipped as gods, or they could more humbly just be conduits for higher forces, as the Sages generally act, and must possess supernatural power and wisdom beyond mortal men while having a mortal body and soul. While it can be passed on by a typical bloodline, there are stories of Arahitogami that passed on their spiritual powers to a "spiritual son", like Abe no Seimei did for Abe no Yasuaki. Though it should be noted that Abe no Seimei literally created Abe no Yasuaki with magic, this was not a requirement, but simply Seimei's personal pickiness over his heir. Also, while Seimei was already credited as an Onmyoji in one of my previous posts, he is also considered an Arahitogami, since he's just so god damned uber, and he was the child of a kitsune, which are practically considered kami in their own rights.

2) What is the Japanese word used for "force" in FSA/TMC/PH? Is it the same word used in OoT to describe the three "forces"?


The Triforce is called "Sanseiryoku", the "San" being the "Tri" and "Seiryoku" being the "force" bit. It's also called "shinseiryoku" for "True force" and "Kogane no chikara" for "Golden Power." The Force as used in FSA/TMC/PH is called "Buryoku".

3) It is true that most of the evidence for the Imprisoning War relates to the Adult timeline (OoT itself; the AoL town names being the names of the Adult timeline sages- cited courtesy of the developers; etc.); is there any for the Child timeline side? (That is, limited to what we know from OoT, MM, and TP, as everything else is debatable)


Heavily debatable. Some will argue that when Link returned to the Child Timeline, he was able to warn the Royal Family, causing a child mirror of Ganon's sealing to happen without the seven years of darkness. Others believe that the Imprisoning War is an ENTIRELY separate event that has yet to be depicted in any actual game.

Edited by MikePetersSucks, 02 September 2008 - 01:53 PM.


#49 Lexxi Aileron

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 06:22 PM

Totally. The Sages, to me, seemed like Arahitogami, or "Kami who are human beings." They could be worshipped as gods, or they could more humbly just be conduits for higher forces, as the Sages generally act, and must possess supernatural power and wisdom beyond mortal men while having a mortal body and soul.


Glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks so.

The Triforce is called "Sanseiryoku", the "San" being the "Tri" and "Seiryoku" being the "force" bit. It's also called "shinseiryoku" for "True force" and "Kogane no chikara" for "Golden Power." The Force as used in FSA/TMC/PH is called "Buryoku".


Alright then. Given that the Triforce contains the essence of the goddesses and that Force is supposed to be the essence of each living thing it seemed plausible that the Triforce and Force might be related; but as far as the Japanese is concerned that doesn't appear to be the case.

Heavily debatable. Some will argue that when Link returned to the Child Timeline, he was able to warn the Royal Family, causing a child mirror of Ganon's sealing to happen without the seven years of darkness. Others believe that the Imprisoning War is an ENTIRELY separate event that has yet to be depicted in any actual game.


I always thought the story writers saying "this is the story of the Imprisoning War" with regards to Ocarina of Time was pretty definitive, myself. If the Imprisoning War did happen on the Child Timeline, I suppose the Sacred Realm could have been sealed separately from Ganon and still take place more or less in its proper context. There's really no indication of that, though...

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 02 September 2008 - 06:24 PM.


#50 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 10:24 PM

Alright then. Given that the Triforce contains the essence of the goddesses and that Force is supposed to be the essence of each living thing it seemed plausible that the Triforce and Force might be related; but as far as the Japanese is concerned that doesn't appear to be the case.


They do, as they share a root word. The "Sei" is a spiritual suffix, and "Bu" is one to denote life, and in Japanese philosophy, life flows from the soul. The implication here is that the Triforce is the source of life and consciousness.

I always thought the story writers saying "this is the story of the Imprisoning War" with regards to Ocarina of Time was pretty definitive, myself.


That was originally the case, but it's just, just not plausible anymore. Between TWW and TP, it doesn't work.

#51 Lexxi Aileron

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 10:55 AM

They do, as they share a root word. The "Sei" is a spiritual suffix, and "Bu" is one to denote life, and in Japanese philosophy, life flows from the soul. The implication here is that the Triforce is the source of life and consciousness.


That would have been helpful before XD
Thanks in any case. =D

That was originally the case, but it's just, just not plausible anymore. Between TWW and TP, it doesn't work.


Well, it doesn't really work in its original form any way you slice it.

Either:

1) TWW interrupts Ganon's sealing
2) TP has Ganon never sealed in the Sacred Realm at all
or
3) The Sacred Realm has to be sealed after the Triforce was originally stolen

I personally see the second and third flaws as fatal, as they prevent the Imprisoning War from happening, with the first merely distancing ALttP from OoT- which we all have to admit at this point (unless we're Jumbie). I suppose I see the change from "the Imprisoning War explains how Ganon came to be sealed" to "the Imprisoning War explains how the Sacred Realm came to be sealed" a less drastic one than the changes required for other revisions. It's also the one that has the most evidence- the manual for ALttP for the GBA re-release no longer associates the Imprisoning War with Ganon. The focus of the story has changed.

Compare to the originals, where the backstory remained essentially identical.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 04 September 2008 - 10:55 AM.


#52 wring

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 10:57 AM

What if you put the classics on seperate timelines, like this:

Child Timeline
OoT/MM-TP-TMC-FS/FSA-ALttP/LA
Adult Timeline
OoT-WW/PH-OoA/OoS-Loz/AoL

#53 Lexxi Aileron

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 11:01 AM

I'm pretty sure the creator intent, insofar as it has been seen, has put LoZ/AoL as associated with ALttP
(both refer to a common era- the era when "Hyrule was one kingdom"; albeit this era is common to both timelines...)

I actually agree that the split continuity makes the most sense in a general sense, but nitpicky things get in the way, like how it seems that the Mirror of Twilight is a more fleshed-out Dark Mirror and is destroyed in TP, thus making FSA impossible after TP, etc. Then you get things that line up if all the games are in order, such as PH featuring a pyramid-building society that could be related to the one in FSA, etc. I suppose we don't know how into these little references the story writers are, though...

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 04 September 2008 - 11:02 AM.


#54 Showsni

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 02:18 PM

I'm quite happy to say that OoT has nothing whatsoever to do with the Imprisoning War any more, except perhaps giving the OoT sages the idea of what to do with Ganon. TWW and TP both mean there are a lot of hoops to jump through if you still want an OoT Imprisoning War, enough that it's not really worth it in my opinion.

#55 Lexxi Aileron

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 04:13 PM

I'm quite happy to say that OoT has nothing whatsoever to do with the Imprisoning War any more, except perhaps giving the OoT sages the idea of what to do with Ganon.


What indication is there of this?

TWW and TP both mean there are a lot of hoops to jump through if you still want an OoT Imprisoning War, enough that it's not really worth it in my opinion.


In TWW's case, the only "hoops" that need jumping are the problems that:

1) Ganon is no longer sealed in the Sacred Realm (FSA could easily fix this)
2) Hyrule is buried under the waves (although, with the islands of the sea expanding to form a "new land" and a number of the locales in the 2D games being apparently unrelated to those in OoT, how big of a problem is this, really?)

#56 Showsni

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 06:02 PM

A Link to the Past clearly states Hyrule has had peace since Ganondorf was imprisoned.
"Several centuries have passed since the Seal War. In Hyrule there was a peace due to the wisdom and faith deep in the people's hearts." I think a massive flood that destroyed that land following a monster attack can't really be counted as a peace, and it would certainly have been mentioned. Plus, in the several centuries between the IW and ALttP (or three to four generations, according to in game text) there's not enough time for a flood, advances in civilisation, unflood and return to former civilisation.
It's also clear that Ganondorf never leaves the SR between the IW and ALttP. "The person who rediscovered the Golden Land was Ganondorf the evil thief. Luckily, he couldn't figure out how to return to the Light World..."
I don't see how FSA helps this at all. FSA Ganon is clearly a different one to OoT Ganon and IW Ganon, with his own backstory, and ultimately he's never even sealed in the SR.
At the end of TWW Ganondorf is petrified (and probably dead), and the triforce's whereabouts are unknown, but presumable not in the SR (unless it magically returns there for no reason). That doesn't lead into ALttP well at all, unless another Ganon comes along and gets sealed in the SR with the triforce - in which case, you have a new IW, and OoT is again nothing to do with it!


#57 Impossible

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Posted 05 September 2008 - 09:26 AM

I actually agree that the split continuity makes the most sense in a general sense, but nitpicky things get in the way, like how it seems that the Mirror of Twilight is a more fleshed-out Dark Mirror and is destroyed in TP, thus making FSA impossible after TP, etc.


But there's absolutely no reason why the Mirror of Twilight must be the Dark Mirror. It's a theory, a theory can't make anything "impossible". What you've just said is the exact reason why I've argued against the mirrors being the same - the ridiculous idea that a theory is proof of something just because you can say it's possible. Never mind that the histories behind the two mirrors completely contradict each other. If FSA is after TP, the two mirrors are completely different. No problem, no contradictions - in fact, fewer contradictions than in calling them the same.

Also, LOL at Lex's last post. I'm not going to bother responding because you already know damn well all the points I've made that you're ignoring. Every argument with you starts from scratch because you wouldn't dare acknowledge or concede anything that has disproven your ideas in the past. You always stay exactly the same, refusing to accept the possibility of being wrong or needing to take counterarguments into account. It's not worth proving the same things in every topic, just because you pretend you haven't heard it all before. I've already written several pages on the subject of the many other reasons why OoT as the IW is so massively full of plotholes. Not the least of which is the fact that the IW and ALttP have the same Ganon.

#58 Lexxi Aileron

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Posted 05 September 2008 - 01:38 PM

A Link to the Past clearly states Hyrule has had peace since Ganondorf was imprisoned.


Actually, it says that Hyrule is currently at peace, several centuries since the Seal War.

Plus, in the several centuries between the IW and ALttP (or three to four generations, according to in game text) there's not enough time for a flood, advances in civilisation, unflood and return to former civilisation.


"Three to four generations" is a NoA boo-boo and doesn't appear in the GBA version.

It's also clear that Ganondorf never leaves the SR between the IW and ALttP. "The person who rediscovered the Golden Land was Ganondorf the evil thief. Luckily, he couldn't figure out how to return to the Light World..."


Only if you think this quote applies to the IW. I would say TWW makes ALttP Ganon being the IW Ganon impossible. Others would say TWW makes OoT Ganon being the IW Ganon impossible. Either way someone contradicts the original intent.

I don't see how FSA helps this at all. FSA Ganon is clearly a different one to OoT Ganon and IW Ganon, with his own backstory, and ultimately he's never even sealed in the SR.


He's sealed in the Four Sword, which the maidens in turn seal away (with a seal that is identical in terms of depiction to the one from ALttP originally and from the one on the stained glass in TWW), and which is broken in the Dark World in ALttP.

At the end of TWW Ganondorf is petrified (and probably dead), and the triforce's whereabouts are unknown, but presumable not in the SR (unless it magically returns there for no reason). That doesn't lead into ALttP well at all, unless another Ganon comes along and gets sealed in the SR with the triforce - in which case, you have a new IW, and OoT is again nothing to do with it!


1) It leads fine into LoZ, no?
2) We don't need a new Sages' seal on the Sacred Realm, though. We only need a new condition for Ganon to be sealed in the SR, yes?

But there's absolutely no reason why the Mirror of Twilight must be the Dark Mirror.


Of course not, but it does seem a very likely possibility.

By the same token, there's absolutely no reason why ALttP Ganon must be the IW Ganon. If FSA/ALttP is after TWW, the two Ganons are completely different. No problem, no contradictions - in fact, fewer contradictions than in calling them the same Ganon.

If FSA is after TP, the two mirrors are completely different. No problem, no contradictions - in fact, fewer contradictions than in calling them the same.


No problem, to be sure, but instead two mirrors with identical histories and two Imprisoning Wars, forcing you to consider a slew of references, including all of OoT's references to the IW which have been confirmed by the developers, to be arbitrary Easter Eggs. This, to me, is a greater violation of developer intent than saying the Imprisoning War has been worked into the timeline differently, which, considering the developers said OoT is the IW, happens anyway (and, considering you say the developers changed their minds, happens twice by your reckoning).

Frankly, Impossible, I take none of your points into account because I value developer statements higher than yours.

OoT-LoZ/AoL-ALttP
OoT=IW
TWW before other games

Nothing has contradicted either of these statements since they were released. The only developer statement I ignore is the "FS is first" quote by Aonuma, which echoes a statement by Miyamoto about the "latest Zelda game" (which at the time was FS).

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 05 September 2008 - 02:10 PM.


#59 Raien

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Posted 05 September 2008 - 02:32 PM

He's sealed in the Four Sword, which the maidens in turn seal away (with a seal that is identical in terms of depiction to the one from ALttP originally and from the one on the stained glass in TWW), and which is broken in the Dark World in ALttP.


If Ganon was sealed in the Dark World, then his form cannot have been contained in a pyramid-shaped seal in the Light World, which tells us that the image was a metaphor for the seal that was cast in actuality. So how exactly does it compare with a literal seal that, by the way, does not alter the the state of the Four Sword in its pedestal within the Four Sword Sanctuary?

And what purpose would it serve for the maidens to seal the Four Sword in the Sacred Realm? It's like building a prison right next to the bank.

#60 Lexxi Aileron

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Posted 05 September 2008 - 02:50 PM

If Ganon was sealed in the Dark World, then his form cannot have been contained in a pyramid-shaped seal in the Light World, which tells us that the image was a metaphor for the seal that was cast in actuality. So how exactly does it compare with a literal seal that, by the way, does not alter the the state of the Four Sword in its pedestal within the Four Sword Sanctuary?

And what purpose would it serve for the maidens to seal the Four Sword in the Sacred Realm? It's like building a prison right next to the bank.


1) Regardless, his form is depicted in a pyramid-shaped seal in the Light World. And why could it not appear as such? This is the appearance of such seals throughout a number of media. What is important is that the FSA seal echoes it precisely, which means that, in keeping with the pattern, it may be sealed in the Dark World/Sacred Realm.
2) To prevent him threatening the Light World, presumably. Perhaps they don't know where the golden power lies, hence people searching for it in ALttP?

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 05 September 2008 - 02:51 PM.





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