323 replies to this topic

[FDL]

Thank you. Apology accepted and may I add that it was very big of you to be able to stand up and make such an apology in this environment. Perhaps I should make one of my own.

I did attempt to argue the 'against' argument but I accept that it was clouded. If I implied that similarity arguments are poor, which I suppose I have since this has clearly been expressed to have been felt, then I apologise. I actually think the similarity arguments are quite compelling. It was the rather simple fact, likely down to story telling methods and focus (ie. the "different style" you mentioned), that I could prove my statement false in other games that sets TP aside and I feel that this warrants at least a debate.

Yeah, I was in the wrong here but I still will agree that you may want to only express your own views, rather than get into the opposing sides heads too much. And I thank you for being big enough that you didn't just ignore me or any of the points I actually made. It appears as though everyone else has decided to ignore my posts despite the fact that they weren't the ones insulted. It's a shame. I, too, was enjoying this debate. But if I'm going to be ignored I'm not sure how I'll get my points across. Oh well.

[Jumbie]

"This was once the land where the power of the gods was said to slumber. This was once the kingdom of Hyrule."

I can't believe I missed that. The game doesn't explore this concept further so really it can only be accepted as a reference to external sources. The logical conclusion is that she has referenced the Triforce. With this in-game reference the similarities become water tight.

Whoa, that's really great news! ...Yeah, "news"

Well, that's asuming NoA didn't pull a fast one.

They didn't. ...Well okay, they did fail to preserve a word-for-word reference to TWW, but otherwise it's correct:

TWW, King:
神の力が眠ると言われた王国
NoJ: "the kingdom where the power of the gods was said to sleep"
NoA: "the place where the power of the gods lies hidden"

TP, Zelda:
神の力が眠るといわれた王国
NoJ: "the kingdom where the power of the gods was said to sleep"
NoA: "the land where the power of the gods was said to slumber"

This is actually one of Jumbie's sloppier translations.

One of my first translations, describes it better. By no means did I translate that quote inappropriately. It can be "divine prank" or "prank of the gods" depending on personal interpretation. Instead of "the fellow", I could've simply said "he", and instead of "somebody chosen", I could've said "one chosen". None of that has any significance.

Even though a skeleton appears and states he accepted life as the hero.

Doesn't mean he ever actually DID anything.

He couldn't have become a hero without doing something great. And yes, the entire game tells of his deeds (Leonard, Gorons, Zoras...).

It appears as though everyone else has decided to ignore my posts despite the fact that they weren't the ones insulted. It's a shame. I, too, was enjoying this debate. But if I'm going to be ignored I'm not sure how I'll get my points across. Oh well.

Especially since now it shows that you were the winner in this debate all along...
Well, what you could've done, is post that TP quote of Zelda before.


I have an idea. Ganondorf's dying speech says that the crests will appear on the chosen ones of each generation. The reason could be that the Triforce was split in TP's timeline, by Link's returning from the future as the wielder of Courage. As for TWW's timeline, the Triforce is also split, so the same thing with the crests of the chosen ones should apply. But since Ganondorf has the ToP anyway and the other pieces are shattered, we don't get to see it.
So, what about all the 2D games where the chosen ones didn't automatically receive the crests? Maybe they take place in a timeline where the Triforce never split - in ALttP's timeline...

Edited by Jumbie, 29 May 2008 - 04:30 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

They didn't. ...Well okay, they did fail to preserve a word-for-word reference to TWW, but otherwise it's correct:

TWW, King:
神の力が眠ると言われた王国
NoJ: "the kingdom where the power of the gods was said to sleep"
NoA: "the place where the power of the gods lies hidden"

TP, Zelda:
神の力が眠るといわれた王国
NoJ: "the kingdom where the power of the gods was said to sleep"
NoA: "the land where the power of the gods was said to slumber"

Ha ha! Even with NoA's changes, I remember reading that and thinking it was a reference to TWW when I first played TP. Yes, I don't see how anyone can deny the meaning of this when Nintendo literally spell it out for us.

I have an idea. Ganondorf's dying speech says that the crests will appear on the chosen ones of each generation. The reason could be that the Triforce was split in TP's timeline, by Link's returning from the future as the wielder of Courage. As for TWW's timeline, the Triforce is also split, so the same thing with the crests of the chosen ones should apply. But since Ganondorf has the ToP anyway and the other pieces are shattered, we don't get to see it.
So, what about all the 2D games where the chosen ones didn't automatically receive the crests? Maybe they take place in a timeline where the Triforce never split - in ALttP's timeline...

You know, I've come to accept your gaiden timeline of late. Your reasoning makes perfect sense with how the developers treat the games (at least until Nintendo makes (if they do so) a new Seal War game), and you could be right about this as well. However, that still leaves the question of what happened to the ToP in the ending. If it stayed and the Triforce was reunited, will Ganondorf's words hold true? Or does his final speech speak against this? Of course, it was removed for a reason... So perhaps it was reunited? I’ll admit, that’s what I first thought when I saw the happy ALttP-like ending.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 29 May 2008 - 04:57 PM.

[LionHarted]

One of my first translations, describes it better. By no means did I translate that quote inappropriately.

I should say, rather, that the translation is phrased rather differently than your more recent ones, which seem to be cleaner when translated into English, on the whole.

He couldn't have become a hero without doing something great. And yes, the entire game tells of his deeds (Leonard, Gorons, Zoras...).

No one really tells what his deeds specifically were, though, which was why I compared the references to him to the references to Ganondorf.

I have an idea. Ganondorf's dying speech says that the crests will appear on the chosen ones of each generation. The reason could be that the Triforce was split in TP's timeline, by Link's returning from the future as the wielder of Courage. As for TWW's timeline, the Triforce is also split, so the same thing with the crests of the chosen ones should apply. But since Ganondorf has the ToP anyway and the other pieces are shattered, we don't get to see it.
So, what about all the 2D games where the chosen ones didn't automatically receive the crests? Maybe they take place in a timeline where the Triforce never split - in ALttP's timeline...

That's ultimately one of the reasons why I put them after TWW... The pieces are no longer scattered among the chosen ones, as they have been reunited.

Edited by LionHarted, 29 May 2008 - 04:59 PM.

[Jumbie]

You know, I've come to accept your gaiden timeline of late. Your reasoning makes perfect sense with how the developers treat the games (at least until Nintendo makes (if they do so) a new Seal War game), and you could be right about this as well.

That's nice to hear.^^ I highly doubt the Seal War story will ever be picked up again (apart from the ALttP remake in which I firmly believe )

However, that still leaves the question of what happened to the ToP in the ending. If it stayed and the Triforce was reunited, will Ganondorf's words hold true? Or does his final speech speak against this? Of course, it was removed for a reason... So perhaps it was reunited? I’ll admit, that’s what I first thought when I saw the happy ALttP-like ending.

I don't think the Triforce reunited - that is, at least not in Hyrule. It would've been good to see if the crests also fade from Link and Zelda. If they did, that could mean the Triforce went back to the Sacred Realm, but we still wouldn't know if it reunited or remained split. Assuming that Ganondorf's explanation is true, they would remain split until the next generation of wielders is born. Then again, there's no reason why the Triforces should leave Link and Zelda unless they died. This would mean that Ganondorf's piece is free but the other are bound, thus maintaining the Triforce split...

I have an idea. Ganondorf's dying speech says that the crests will appear on the chosen ones of each generation. The reason could be that the Triforce was split in TP's timeline, by Link's returning from the future as the wielder of Courage. As for TWW's timeline, the Triforce is also split, so the same thing with the crests of the chosen ones should apply. But since Ganondorf has the ToP anyway and the other pieces are shattered, we don't get to see it.
So, what about all the 2D games where the chosen ones didn't automatically receive the crests? Maybe they take place in a timeline where the Triforce never split - in ALttP's timeline...

That's ultimately one of the reasons why I put them after TWW... The pieces are no longer scattered among the chosen ones, as they have been reunited.

Oh, that's a valid point.
So, either your theory or mine must be true.[/joke]

[LionHarted]

Oh, that's a valid point.

That was, in fact, my reason for putting any of the 2D games after TWW to even start with.

Prior to that I favored the split timeline (pre-TP, of course), with ALttP on the Child side. Then I realized that that didn't satisfy me.

Anyway[/history lesson]

[NM87]

Are you Japanese?

And...? You are still blending two different type of literature and meanings. One meaning in English could be different in Japan, so I don't care what "divine power" means in American literature.

Jumbie has concluded that it apparently isn't.

Not to discredit anyone, but that really doesn't matter.

Doesn't mean he ever actually DID anything.

A minute ago you were telling me there you doubt there was a hero and now you are telling me that the hero didn't do anything.

Possessing the power of the gods means you possess the Triforce within you. (Citation: OoT and TWW)

I'll use one of your famous responses: Not necessarily.

[MikePetersSucks]

And...? You are still blending two different type of literature and meanings. One meaning in English could be different in Japan, so I don't care what "divine power" means in American literature.

Being one of the leading authorities on Japanese cultures: It's the same. >_> Like, exactly the same.

Not to discredit anyone, but that really doesn't matter.

She made a better case than you.

I'll use one of your famous responses: necessarily.

Fixed.

[LionHarted]

You are still blending two different type of literature and meanings. One meaning in English could be different in Japan, so I don't care what "divine power" means in American literature.

I'm not talking about American literature, in any case.

A minute ago you were telling me there you doubt there was a hero and now you are telling me that the hero didn't do anything.

As far as I can tell from the game, the hero didn't do anything.

I hear no stories of villains he has vanquished or people he has saved, etc. etc.

I'll use one of your famous responses: Not necessarily.

Kind of like how me inhaling means I'm breathing.

[NM87]

My point is that the outside context, not the actual term "power of the gods", distinguishes the Triforce from the Wind Waker. I've just never seen you acknowledge the point, so I'm going to harp on until you do. If there ever again comes a time when "power of the gods" appears without the crests or the "slumbers in Hyrule" line, then you will have difficulty asserting that "power of the gods" means the Triforce in that context.

Exactly. The answer is simple, the phrase "power of the gods" can mean a number of things. If Din had come down and used her powers, we would call that the power of the gods, yet we would not be stating she has a Triforce. The Triforce was called the power of gold in ALTTP, but was it a golden power? Its power was the Gods power, and merely possessing it you had acquired that power, not that Ganon had to have it inside him. Really, it is possible to have that power and not have a Triforce inside you or whatever silly rules you guys have made up. The trio merely had the power of their respective goddess. I repeat this, since no one has yet to disprove it, they only tell me about similarities shared with previous games, and that "power of the gods" always indicates a Triforce piece. Crazy. Talk.

[MikePetersSucks]

The Triforce was called the power of gold in ALTTP

NoA version only. Going purely by the original Japanese, the Triforce's ONLY nickname is "Power of the Gods"

[NM87]

The Triforce was called the power of gold in ALTTP

NoA version only. Going purely by the original Japanese, the Triforce's ONLY nickname is "Power of the Gods"

Point being, that it is called "power of the gods" because it contains that power, not because everytime that phrase appears it must be the Triforce, however much that phrase is connected to the Triforce.

[Raien]

NM87, Lex has said (in response to my post, which you quoted) that he was only referring to the term in the context of TP's Triforce marks, so there's no point in continung with this.

Edited by Raian, 31 May 2008 - 11:15 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Point being, that it is called "power of the gods" because it contains that power, not because everytime that phrase appears it must be the Triforce, however much that phrase is connected to the Triforce.

The Triforce doesn't so much contain the God Power as it IS the Power of the Gods. You can't really separate that Essence of the Gods aspect from the Triangle manifestations. Besides, since when has the term "Power of the Gods" been used to refer to something that wasn't the Triforce? Unless obviously stated, we should assume it's the Triforce. Especially when said Power of the Gods works exactly like the Triforce in absolutely every way.

[Raien]

Besides, since when has the term "Power of the Gods" been used to refer to something that wasn't the Triforce?

The Wind Waker (item).

Edited by Raian, 31 May 2008 - 01:00 PM.

[CID Farwin]

Besides, since when has the term "Power of the Gods" been used to refer to something that wasn't the Triforce?

The Wind Waker (item).

Note: in The Wind Waker (game) there are wind gods whose power the Wind Waker borrows. Every other time the Triforce is mentioned in those words it's completely different context.

[NM87]

The Triforce doesn't so much contain the God Power as it IS the Power of the Gods. You can't really separate that Essence of the Gods aspect from the Triangle manifestations. Besides, since when has the term "Power of the Gods" been used to refer to something that wasn't the Triforce? Unless obviously stated, we should assume it's the Triforce. Especially when said Power of the Gods works exactly like the Triforce in absolutely every way.

You are wrong about the Triforce only being mentioned as the power of gold in the NOA version only, firstly:

"The golden power lies somewhere descended from the heavens. He who claims it as his own shall have their desires granted by the gods."

The Triforce is not the essence of the Gods, but it contains their power, which they had forged the Triforce from:

The Triforce, respectively: "one who would Conquer Power," "one who would Govern Wisdom," and "one who would Temper Courage" held three different emblems. It would shine in the Sacred Realm, somewhere in the world, until one who was worthy of inheriting those powers appeared.

This more or less specifies that it was three powers that made up the Triforce and they would go to one deserving of them all. In TP, by the prank, each power was given to the person who related to that power the most, and it is perfectly possible that only THAT power was issued to the chosen ones...

Ganondorf from ALTTP was apparently deserving of those three powers, since he had obtained the Triforce in its entirety, and was granted those powers, without actually having the Triforce "inside him".

[Sparx401]

The Wind Waker was said to be used for prayer to the gods (in which they DON'T specify who they are so we assume the general ones) via music and we know that the sages also performed under the king when he used the Wind Waker so it can't JUST be the wind gods. Link also has the power to possess statues and change the time of day which do not seem "wind-like" or relating to the wind gods at all. We also have the Earth god's lyrics song for the earth sage which doesn't deal with the wind.

[LionHarted]

The songs the Wind Waker conducts invoke the gods, but the powers they borrow are not the same as the essence of the three goddesses.

[Jumbie]

MPS, I don't mean to be an annoyance, but some things you said were incorrect. As NM87 said, "Golden Power" (黄金の力) is used the same in the Japanese ALttP, and...

The Triforce doesn't so much contain the God Power as it IS the Power of the Gods.

Referencing the Japanese OoT, I can in fact give you a literal inverse of that statement:

なぜなら?聖地には、神の力を秘めた　伝説の聖三角、トライフォースがあるからじゃ?
NoJ: For? at the sacred place there is the Triforce, the sacred triangle of legend which contains the power of the gods?
NoA: For it is in that Sacred Realm that one will find the divine relic, the Triforce, which contains the essence of the gods?

The Triforce is not the essence of the Gods, but it contains their power, which they had forged the Triforce from:

The Triforce, respectively: "one who would Conquer Power," "one who would Govern Wisdom," and "one who would Temper Courage" held three different emblems. It would shine in the Sacred Realm, somewhere in the world, until one who was worthy of inheriting those powers appeared.

This more or less specifies that it was three powers that made up the Triforce and they would go to one deserving of them all. In TP, by the prank, each power was given to the person who related to that power the most, and it is perfectly possible that only THAT power was issued to the chosen ones...

We can substitute "emblems" with "crests", so that line says that the Triforce consists of three different crests. Exactly like in TP, where these crests are awarded to the chosen ones. That's even more evidence for the Triforce being in TP.

Ganondorf from ALTTP was apparently deserving of those three powers, since he had obtained the Triforce in its entirety, and was granted those powers, without actually having the Triforce "inside him".

If ALttP Ganondorf was an evil person, as he always is, he cannot have kept all three Triforce pieces upon touching it. Evil hearts are never balanced by definition. Do some evil, do some good, then you're in balance.
Of course that rule only came with OoT, but it taught us that ALttP's manual must not be taken at face value in this regard. Either ALttP Ganondorf re-assembled the other pieces over the centuries of imprisonment, or he never owns the complete Triforce at all, which always remains a possibility. Nowhere is it said that he has the full one, and OoT even occasionally implies that Ganondorf did win the full Triforce although that's not true.
As for the united Triforce being in the antechamber in ALttP: If TP's mechanics of the pieces moving while invisible applies to ALttP as well, we may just not see how the pieces got in that room. I don't know where Wisdom and Courage were during the game, but surely they weren't among Ganon's nonexistant ashes.

Note: in The Wind Waker (game) there are wind gods whose power the Wind Waker borrows. Every other time the Triforce is mentioned in those words it's completely different context.

That's right, the two frogs are kami, and the wind is their power. It's possible that that mention of "power of the gods" refers to Zephos and Cyclos.

Recently I've considered that such a concert of the sages conducted by the King may have been how the Hyrulians (Zoras and Kokiri included) appealed to the Goddesses for assistance prior to the Flood. If that was the case, the baton would actually have some relevance to the game's backstory after all.

Edited by Jumbie, 31 May 2008 - 10:15 PM.

[Raien]

This is something I wrote recently in the Parallel topic. It could be of interest:

The Zelda mythology conforms perfectly to the symbolism of magic in general mythology; namely control over the things which are outside our control in real-life. The wind cannot be controlled in real-life, so controlling the wind thus becomes an act of magic. How the elements are manipulated depends on the magic and the wielder; while in some cases this control over nature reflects the progression of nature in the real world, sometimes nature is affected in other ways, like the creation of fire out of apparent nothingness (which on reflection might be defined as a "summoning").

If you remember that with the wind waker, it was said that Link could "borrow the power of the gods". What this means is that the wind is a power that only the gods (and the special deities) are allowed to control, and that the wind waker allows humans this ability as well. In general mythology, if a human was to take this power without the gods' consent, it might be seen as black magic or witchcraft, as Christianity looks upon it, whereas if communication with the gods (or deities who are deigned to wield the elements) can be established by a human (like a priest or witch doctor), then that human could be allowed that power to wield. Sometimes the elements themselves are suggested to be alive and obey the sorceror as if the magic creates a pact between them. Anyway, the wind waker was said to be possessed by the King of Hyrule, so it perhaps signifies that the king had some form of magical communication with the gods (as the leader of the Hylians, the chosen people of the gods).

Edited by Raian, 31 May 2008 - 10:35 PM.

[Sparx401]

The songs the Wind Waker conducts invoke the gods, but the powers they borrow are not the same as the essence of the three goddesses.

Wouldn't that stand to reason that we have an instance where "power of the gods" relates to something other than the triforce? I know we have to look within the context of TP for what the phrase relates to, but the fact that the phrase IS utilized outside of its usual description means that it could be used in other places in other games (but the context its has to establish that; the Wind Waker made it clear that it couldn't have been the triforce considering the information given).

And Jumbie, when the games talk about a "balanced heart", I think it means that the person has to balance the three attributes of the triforce: Power, wisdom, and courage. The triforce itself is said to not know the difference between good and evil, so how would it be able detect between good and evil in the first place let alone a balance within an individual?

[NM87]

We can substitute "emblems" with "crests", so that line says that the Triforce consists of three different crests. Exactly like in TP, where these crests are awarded to the chosen ones. That's even more evidence for the Triforce being in TP.

Would it really change anything? Those ?crests? are still just powers to be inherited, regardless of the piece itself.

If ALttP Ganondorf was an evil person, as he always is, he cannot have kept all three Triforce pieces upon touching it. Evil hearts are never balanced by definition. Do some evil, do some good, then you're in balance.
Of course that rule only came with OoT, but it taught us that ALttP's manual must not be taken at face value in this regard. Either ALttP Ganondorf re-assembled the other pieces over the centuries of imprisonment, or he never owns the complete Triforce at all, which always remains a possibility. Nowhere is it said that he has the full one, and OoT even occasionally implies that Ganondorf did win the full Triforce although that's not true.
As for the united Triforce being in the antechamber in ALttP: If TP's mechanics of the pieces moving while invisible applies to ALttP as well, we may just not see how the pieces got in that room. I don't know where Wisdom and Courage were during the game, but surely they weren't among Ganon's nonexistant ashes.

What is all this about? I don?t want to sound rude, but does this hold any water? The Triforce itself was in the back room, and if Ganon did not have it, he wouldn?t tell Link he isn?t giving it to him. Besides, how do you expect him to find the other pieces if he doesn?t know how to get out of the Sacred Realm? AND, the Triforce doesn?t look for someone who is balanced with good and evil, it looks for someone who has balance of power, courage and wisdom.

You forget how the Triforce can not distinguish between good and evil, and therefore could not know Ganon?s evil intentions. Reasoning that Ganon had found the pieces sometime after he entered and touched the Triforce is fan fiction, since ALTTP sates as a fact he obtained the entire Triforce and does not give us reason to think otherwise. This means, that the prophecy foretold in OOT regarding the ?Legend of the Triforce? must have been completed prior to ALTTP, in a way which doesn?t disturb the contents of the Sacred Realm. The ?divine prank? is essentially what would work.

[NM87]

The songs the Wind Waker conducts invoke the gods, but the powers they borrow are not the same as the essence of the three goddesses.

Wouldn't that stand to reason that we have an instance where "power of the gods" relates to something other than the triforce? I know we have to look within the context of TP for what the phrase relates to, but the fact that the phrase IS utilized outside of its usual description means that it could be used in other places in other games (but the context its has to establish that; the Wind Waker made it clear that it couldn't have been the triforce considering the information given).

And Jumbie, when the games talk about a "balanced heart", I think it means that the person has to balance the three attributes of the triforce: Power, wisdom, and courage. The triforce itself is said to not know the difference between good and evil, so how would it be able detect between good and evil in the first place let alone a balance within an individual?

I agree with all of this. I have one question: what of the context you mentioned?

[Jumbie]

And Jumbie, when the games talk about a "balanced heart", I think it means that the person has to balance the three attributes of the triforce: Power, wisdom, and courage. The triforce itself is said to not know the difference between good and evil, so how would it be able detect between good and evil in the first place let alone a balance within an individual?

You are right, it isn't able to detect evil, but I meant it in an indirect way: Wisdom and Courage seem to be inherently good features, in contrast to Power which any bad guy would always prefer over the others. Evil and power produce each other, vice versa. Enough power and you'll turn evil, enough evil and you'll come to power. Now try the same with evil and wisdom, or evil and courage...
I just cannot imagine Ganondorf to have a "balanced heart", he always desires Power more than anything else. And how could one incarnation of Ganondorf have a different heart than the others anyway? No, I doubt Nintendo threw him out of his own character that much (being imbalanced in LoZ, then apparently balanced in ALttP, and imbalanced again in all following games)...

We can substitute "emblems" with "crests", so that line says that the Triforce consists of three different crests. Exactly like in TP, where these crests are awarded to the chosen ones. That's even more evidence for the Triforce being in TP.

Would it really change anything? Those ?crests? are still just powers to be inherited, regardless of the piece itself.

The real question to concern ourselves with, as I tried to get across before, is what the Triforce exactly is. Is it the golden pieces? Is it the shining crests? Or is it either? We know that people can have a physical Triforce piece without it dwelling in them in form of a crest, so what keeps us from acknowledging that, the other way round, somebody bearing a crest can mean that the Triforce dwells in them without them actually having the physical piece? (And let's leave AoL and OoX aside, I'm talking about TP here.)

I would ask everyone of us to think profoundly about this, as hints to this being the case can be found in every game.

What is all this about? I don?t want to sound rude, but does this hold any water?

I'd think so. Wise minds came up with those thoughts long before my time as a theorist.

The Triforce itself was in the back room, and if Ganon did not have it, he wouldn?t tell Link he isn?t giving it to him.

One Triforce piece can already linguistically be "the Triforce" - as seen in OoT:

Rauru: "He obtained the Triforce from the Temple of Light, and with its power, he became the King of Evil..."
Zelda: "Your spirit remained in the Sacred Realm...and then the Triforce fell into Ganondorf's hands."

I bet most have forgotten about this: Throughout the majority of OoT, players are actually led to think Ganondorf got the entire Triforce. It's only near the end that Sheik reveals it was not so - because only she knows the unknown Sheikah legend about the Triforce split!
This twist retroactively gave ALttP perfect justification to make it look like Ganondorf took the entire Triforce, even if that does not necessarily have to be the truth.

Besides, how do you expect him to find the other pieces if he doesn?t know how to get out of the Sacred Realm?

Probably if they are without holders, the remaining pieces would return to their resting place, the Dark World. Again that's not my theory.

ALTTP sates as a fact he obtained the entire Triforce

Oh, could you find that quote for me?

and [ALttP] does not give us reason to think otherwise.

Not ALttP, but OoT eventually did. It being originally intended as the Seal War (which is a fact), OoT has every right to specify, contradict, and fix details that ALttP's backstory left rather obscure. That's what prequels are there for. Even in StarWars did the prequels retcon some minor details from the original series, didn't they?

This means, that the prophecy foretold in OOT regarding the ?Legend of the Triforce? must have been completed prior to ALTTP, in a way which doesn?t disturb the contents of the Sacred Realm. The ?divine prank? is essentially what would work.

The "divine prank", or better put, the mechanic that crests will appear on the chosen ones, is actually what I think goes against your theory. If the prophecy really was completed, there should be no crests distributed, but instead the Triforce should rest in peace in the Sacred Realm. Until the day that someone else comes and touches it anew - likely splitting it again. We have no reason to speculate that the latter wouldn't repeat itself, because above all, the Triforce split is a fundamental mechanic of the Triforce, not just a one-time prophecy.


So, what happened is that in the Adult Timeline, Ganondorf touched the Triforce, thus splitting it and marking Link and Zelda with the crests. And when Link emerged back in the past, he was still marked with the crest, triggering Zelda and Ganondorf to become marked too (although only somewhat later, since young Zelda doesn't have it in the courtyard ending scene and Ganondorf only receives his after the execution).
That is how we get to the situation in TP. And the fact that the Goddesses apparently withheld the mark from Ganondorf until he most desperately needed it, seems to be the very prank in the story. I mean, surely the other two chosen ones must first display their special quality that makes them so to the Goddesses (or make that: to the Triforce's spirit), only then will they be designated with the crests of those chosen to have the power of the gods.

Hm, that theory flows together so neatly that I'm quite surprised.^^

[LionHarted]

Wouldn't that stand to reason that we have an instance where "power of the gods" relates to something other than the triforce?

In the TWW case it is obviously not used in that sense.

It is used to refer to the Master Sword in the Hylian text in the TWW intro, as well, actually.

[FDL]

Especially since now it shows that you were the winner in this debate all along...
Well, what you could've done, is post that TP quote of Zelda before.

Heh, rub it in why don'tcha?! But yeah, I would've done that had I realized people weren't aware of/ignoring that quote. I'm glad to see you seem to agree with me now, it tells me that some of the reasonable people who actually payed attention to the points I made may have actually got something out of the various points I made.

Ha ha! Even with NoA's changes, I remember reading that and thinking it was a reference to TWW when I first played TP. Yes, I don't see how anyone can deny the meaning of this when Nintendo literally spell it out for us.

Wow, you too? Every time I read that quote I kept thinking of TWW and I wasn't completely sure why. Now I am.

Wouldn't that stand to reason that we have an instance where "power of the gods" relates to something other than the triforce? I know we have to look within the context of TP for what the phrase relates to, but the fact that the phrase IS utilized outside of its usual description means that it could be used in other places in other games (but the context its has to establish that; the Wind Waker made it clear that it couldn't have been the triforce considering the information given).

Thing is, The Wind Waker doesn't look and act exactly the same as the Triforce. The "power of the gods" of TP do. I mean, think of it this way. Let's say you are led into a room by some scientists. They want you to interact with some dogs. They bring in the first one, named Triforcey. They also tell you what breed he is, we can just say he's a golden retriever. Anyway, he's got a golden hue to his fur, he's pretty big size, and has a black blotch on his forehead. After interacting with him for a while, they bring in another one. This dog is small and white, and named Waker some odd reason. They tell you this one's a chihuhua. He's got a different bark then the other dog, different markings, everything, but he's still a dog. Next they bring in "another" dog. He looks the same as Triforcey, right down to that distinctive blotch on his forehead. He also barks the same, acts the same, everything unique about Triforcey this dog has. He's even a golden retriever. The only differences are that he's wearing a hat and that the scientists won't tell you his given name. Now, as I'm sure you know by now, that stupid example was meant to convey why we believe/suspect that the Triforce is in TP. The "power of the gods" in TP is referred to the same way the Triforce is, looks and acts like the Triforce, and has no non-cosmetic differences. On the other hand, the Wind Waker is completely different in every conceivable way.

Basically my point is, all dogs/power of the gods are not the same. But if you see a dog that looks and acts the same as another dog, living in the same house as that dog, and the only difference is it's wearing a hat and no one's calling it by name, then chances are it's the same dog. This was a some what silly post but seriously, I've tried approaching this in lot's of different ways and every time you guys just ignore the points I make that you can't seem to refute. I've made some points pages ago that you guys still have not refuted. And no, name-calling isn't refutation. "Making a stand" and ignoring my posts doesn't work in this case, as it just makes you seem like one of those kids who covers their ears and sings when someone says something they don't want to hear. And I'm sure none of you want to look like that.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 01 June 2008 - 09:27 AM.

[NM87]

The real question to concern ourselves with, as I tried to get across before, is what the Triforce exactly is. Is it the golden pieces? Is it the shining crests? Or is it either? We know that people can have a physical Triforce piece without it dwelling in them in form of a crest, so what keeps us from acknowledging that, the other way round, somebody bearing a crest can mean that the Triforce dwells in them without them actually having the physical piece? (And let's leave AoL and OoX aside, I'm talking about TP here.)

I would ask everyone of us to think profoundly about this, as hints to this being the case can be found in every game.

If you haven?t understood my understating of the Triforce, I?ll state it now clearly: The Triforce is a symbol of the Gods power and when one obtains a piece they are inheriting the power that it contains. Now, in OOT/TP/WW those chosen ones have the crests because they inherit the titles/powers of Power, Wisdom and Courage. In ALTTP/LOZ/AOL/OOX etc., those characters only have the Triforce pieces but are not granted the titles associated with each.

One Triforce piece can already linguistically be "the Triforce" - as seen in OoT:

Rauru: "He obtained the Triforce from the Temple of Light, and with its power, he became the King of Evil..."
Zelda: "Your spirit remained in the Sacred Realm...and then the Triforce fell into Ganondorf's hands."

I bet most have forgotten about this: Throughout the majority of OoT, players are actually led to think Ganondorf got the entire Triforce. It's only near the end that Sheik reveals it was not so - because only she knows the unknown Sheikah legend about the Triforce split!
This twist retroactively gave ALttP perfect justification to make it look like Ganondorf took the entire Triforce, even if that does not necessarily have to be the truth.

No it doesn?t, since ALTTP makes it clear he had he whole Triforce.

Probably if they are without holders, the remaining pieces would return to their resting place, the Dark World. Again that's not my theory.

That?s good, since this is not a very good theory.

Oh, could you find that quote for me?

?If a person who has an evil heart gets the Triforce, a Hero is destined to appear??

If you defeat Ganon, this world will vanish and the Triforce will wait for a new holder.

Don't you think it might be possible with the power of the Triforce behind you?

There are more quotes like these, but wouldn?t? these imply Ganon has the entire Triforce during ALTTP? The theory that the other two pieces magically floated back to the SR for Ganon so conveniently, is bogus. So if he has it, he has it, just like we see Link obtain the WHOLE Triforce at the end.

Not ALttP, but OoT eventually did. It being originally intended as the Seal War (which is a fact), OoT has every right to specify, contradict, and fix details that ALttP's backstory left rather obscure. That's what prequels are there for. Even in StarWars did the prequels retcon some minor details from the original series, didn't they?

Oh, so ret-cons are a common thing in Zelda and the like? Okay, lets ret-con OOT as the IW. Also, ALTTP back-story is obscure at all, it only becomes obscure when you take into account what OOT tells us. Besides, if ALTTP came first, don?t you think THAT is how developers originally intended things to be, regardless of OOT? See, this ?intentions? nonsense goes all the way back.

The "divine prank", or better put, the mechanic that crests will appear on the chosen ones, is actually what I think goes against your theory. If the prophecy really was completed, there should be no crests distributed, but instead the Triforce should rest in peace in the Sacred Realm. Until the day that someone else comes and touches it anew - likely splitting it again. We have no reason to speculate that the latter wouldn't repeat itself, because above all, the Triforce split is a fundamental mechanic of the Triforce, not just a one-time prophecy.

No, this only works if you consider OOT as a ret-con to ALTTP back-story, that the crests mean the actual Triforce piece and if you take OOT as the IW.
The crests are symbols of the power the is contained in each Triforce in the form of the three balances. That power can be distributed in the form of a divine prank. Since the powers of the Triforce were already distributed then the ?Legend of the Triforce? would be satisfied.

Edited by NM87, 01 June 2008 - 10:46 AM.

[LionHarted]

The crests are symbols of the power the is contained in each Triforce in the form of the three balances. That power can be distributed in the form of a divine prank. Since the powers of the Triforce were already distributed then the ?Legend of the Triforce? would be satisfied.

The legend of the Triforce doesn't predict an event, though. It just tells us what will happen if someone touches the Triforce.

The only real prophecies in OoT are Zelda/Link's dreams and the legend of the sages ("when evil rules all"). The rest of them are rules ("if someone with an unbalanced heart[...] only one worthy of the title of Hero of Time can pull the blade[...], etc. etc.).

[Jumbie]

["Power of the gods"] is used to refer to the Master Sword in the Hylian text in the TWW intro, as well, actually.

Not really:
"Then a person clad in green appeared out of nowhere, received the power of the gods and, at the end of a desperate struggle, defeated the evil power. Peace had been returned to the land."

I'm glad to see you seem to agree with me now, it tells me that some of the reasonable people who actually payed attention to the points I made may have actually got something out of the various points I made.

Well, I was keeping out of this debate for long because I had no opinion. I originally believed the Triforce pieces are in TP, but then the arguments of the other side made me unsure. Good that it's finally proven now.^^

If you haven?t understood my understating of the Triforce, I?ll state it now clearly: The Triforce is a symbol of the Gods power and when one obtains a piece they are inheriting the power that it contains. Now, in OOT/TP/WW those chosen ones have the crests because they inherit the titles/powers of Power, Wisdom and Courage. In ALTTP/LOZ/AOL/OOX etc., those characters only have the Triforce pieces but are not granted the titles associated with each.

And it doesn't bother you that those titles are never mentioned again after ALttP's manual? I think the titles are irrelevant, it revolves all around the crests.

One Triforce piece can already linguistically be "the Triforce" - as seen in OoT:

Rauru: "He obtained the Triforce from the Temple of Light, and with its power, he became the King of Evil..."
Zelda: "Your spirit remained in the Sacred Realm...and then the Triforce fell into Ganondorf's hands."

I bet most have forgotten about this: Throughout the majority of OoT, players are actually led to think Ganondorf got the entire Triforce. It's only near the end that Sheik reveals it was not so - because only she knows the unknown Sheikah legend about the Triforce split!
This twist retroactively gave ALttP perfect justification to make it look like Ganondorf took the entire Triforce, even if that does not necessarily have to be the truth.

No it doesn?t, since ALTTP makes it clear he had he whole Triforce.

Sort of missing my point.

?If a person who has an evil heart gets the Triforce, a Hero is destined to appear??

That one is meaningless, because the very same happened in OoT. Ganondorf got the Triforce, so a hero appeared.

If you defeat Ganon, this world will vanish and the Triforce will wait for a new holder.

Because of Ganon's death, yes.

Don't you think it might be possible with the power of the Triforce behind you?

What the people assume.

The theory that the other two pieces magically floated back to the SR for Ganon so conveniently, is bogus.

And why exactly, because you're uncomfortable with it? The Triforce's natural way of locomotion is magically floating, and the Sacred Realm is where it belongs when no chosen ones to hold it are around.

Oh, so ret-cons are a common thing in Zelda and the like? Okay, lets ret-con OOT as the IW.

Of course they are! *Minor* retcons though, not such crimes like destroying an age-old connection between two games. Such a thing never happened.

Also, ALTTP back-story is obscure at all, it only becomes obscure when you take into account what OOT tells us.

Which we're all obliged to do. We once were back in 1998, and we still are today.

Besides, if ALTTP came first, don?t you think THAT is how developers originally intended things to be, regardless of OOT?

That's exactly where the minor retcons come in.

No, this only works if you consider OOT as a ret-con to ALTTP back-story, that the crests mean the actual Triforce piece and if you take OOT as the IW.
The crests are symbols of the power the is contained in each Triforce in the form of the three balances. That power can be distributed in the form of a divine prank. Since the powers of the Triforce were already distributed then the ?Legend of the Triforce? would be satisfied.

See, I have realised that the crests are not symbols of the Triforce, but they are the Triforce pieces themselves. I wish others could arrive to that insight too. Or else you may just stick to your old theories while I'm moving on.