323 replies to this topic

[Duke Serkol]

Wisdom and Courage seem to be inherently good features, in contrast to Power

I wish the series would get away from that. I find it diminishing as a notion.

We know that people can have a physical Triforce piece without it dwelling in them in form of a crest, so what keeps us from acknowledging that, the other way round, somebody bearing a crest can mean that the Triforce dwells in them without them actually having the physical piece? (And let's leave AoL and OoX aside, I'm talking about TP here.)

So you are arguing that either one can have the Triforce crest and relative powers without actually having the Triforce part itself or that when it enters somebody it changes into the crest, right? the latter seems self evident, and the first is one of the theories I consider as possible explanations for its behavior in TP.

As for your ideas concerning the Triforce in ALttP, I have to disagree, because as it has been pointed out:

The Triforce itself was in the back room

and as to how he got it,

Probably if they are without holders, the remaining pieces would return to their resting place, the Dark World. Again that's not my theory.

I never liked this theory. Nothing in any of the games (except perhaps TP's ending, which is why there has ben so much debate really) suggests this, rather several seem to indicate otherwise.

And lastly...

So, what happened is that in the Adult Timeline, Ganondorf touched the Triforce, thus splitting it and marking Link and Zelda with the crests. And when Link emerged back in the past, he was still marked with the crest, triggering Zelda and Ganondorf to become marked too (although only somewhat later, since young Zelda doesn't have it in the courtyard ending scene and Ganondorf only receives his after the execution).
That is how we get to the situation in TP. And the fact that the Goddesses apparently withheld the mark from Ganondorf until he most desperately needed it, seems to be the very prank in the story. I mean, surely the other two chosen ones must first display their special quality that makes them so to the Goddesses (or make that: to the Triforce's spirit), only then will they be designated with the crests of those chosen to have the power of the gods.

I must say the explanation for the delay doesn't really persuade me, but otherwise, it's an interesting concept.

[Sparx401]

You are right, it isn't able to detect evil, but I meant it in an indirect way: Wisdom and Courage seem to be inherently good features, in contrast to Power which any bad guy would always prefer over the others.

Although we see Ganondorf with the triforce of power and we think of power relating to evil more than good, I don't think we can rightfully say that power is always a bad thing since the King in the AoL backstory used the entire triforce to rule the kingdom. I do think, however, that the goddesses lean more towards "good" and make good "security" when an imbalanced heart touches the triforce. Yes, power drives those who have dark hearts to obtain it, but power in and of itself is neutral; the fact that we see it abused by Ganondorf throughout the series does not automatically warrant us in dropping the neutrality of power itself in the Zelda universe.

Now try the same with evil and wisdom, or evil and courage...

For courage, a bad person can easily have that. Now, a totalitarian person like Ganondorf would obviously have power held more high in his heart than anything else, but I can think of a few archetypes that would have courage more so than power (i.e. - the courage to stand in the face of friends and foes alike in the heat of a battle and while such a person may not be overly victorious, he may very well NOT cave into pressure and press onwards into such tension and obtain the triforce for himself...but this is just a hypothetical situation).

Also, an imbalanced heart does not necessarily have to be evil at all in the first place and that an imbalance implies a huge focal point surrounding one or two attributes while disregarding another (that is, not the LACK of an attribute but a down-sizing of it). But, I'm probably regurgitating things you may have already agreed with...

Wisdom on the other hand has both a very loose meaning, a more stricter and technically correct definition, and a philosophical precise meaning as well.

The first "loose" definition, taken from American Heritage dictionary, is that wisdom is basically: the sum of learning through the ages; knowledge (in which knowledge itself is considered synonymous with wisdom, but wisdom implies seeing the whole of knowledge after a period of time).

Another loose definition is simply scholarly knowledge or learning (it is here where we can see how imprecise the English language can be sometimes!)

The stricter and technically correct definition is what we know as discernment or insight; knowledge of what is true or right coupled with just judgment as to action (which obviously means the triforce seems to favor good individuals while deterring bad ones getting their own wishes granted or at least in full and NOT get the "true force" with this meaning).

My handy little philosophical dictionary gives this small entry on wisdom:

Good judgment with respect to abstract truth or theoretical matters (in contrast to prudence in concrete, practical affairs). For Plato, wisdom is the virtue appropriate to the rational soul, and for Aristotle, it is the highest intellectual virtue.

Which implies that one must have good judgment given circumstances (i.e. - the quality of the judgment, not whether such judgment is deemed morally right or wrong although the two may overlap) but such wisdom deals with reality and not "knowing and doing what is right".

I just cannot imagine Ganondorf to have a "balanced heart", he always desires Power more than anything else.


While I myself find it hard to see how some ugly demon pig could balance power, wisdom, and courage together to maintain the entire triforce (in light of the "splitting" rule not even being invented yet [although you can "break it apart"]), given the looser meaning and stricter, philosophical one, it could be feasible at the point when LttP was first released and Ganondorf could possibly not have been molded into the supreme power-hungry being that he is. This is not to say that he wasn't already power-hungry in the very first LoZ and in LttP, but it may be possible that he could master applicable judgment (cut his losses, ditch/kill his men?) and courage (once again, killing his peers? Entering a possibly dreadful melee?). Of course, we do not know exactly what the creators meant with wisdom, and to me, the notion of having wisdom in there and having the "mechanics of the triforce" doesn't seem quite right considering that any person, good or evil (and wisdom seems to be something only the virtuous have in our day-to-day language) can be "balanced" and obtain it in full. I do admit that it's stretching things, but I, for some reason, think that the philosophical one gives "the best fit".

And how could one incarnation of Ganondorf have a different heart than the others anyway? No, I doubt Nintendo threw him out of his own character that much (being imbalanced in LoZ, then apparently balanced in ALttP, and imbalanced again in all following games)...

In LoZ, Ganon just took the triforce of power. At this point, the King already split up power and wisdom which were in the country of Hyrule whereas the piece of courage was kept in the Great Temple. LoZ actually had nothing to do with "imbalanced hearts"...the triforce was already split! Reality-wise, this could be feasible since at first the pieces were already split, and then when the developers intended to make a prequel, he could have been "fleshed out" and have been the one balanced. Considering his power-hungry mold and the fact that he is a greedy creep as represented by his pig form, the creators perhaps wanted to drop the notion of Ganon being balanced altogether (which would help cohesively with OoT's story). Of course, all this is speculative and hypothetical at best but it could possibly have worked out like that.

Timeline-wise, it wouldn't be so bad either--the only thing is that if you were to place FSA between TP and LttP in order to make a "new Ganon" work out, then you have the problem of him and his crazy trident-fest-thingie-ma-bob (i.e. - the trident's desription...power-hungry...doesn't seem to make him balanced at all).

[Raien]

Power and evil are only connected by greed. With regards to the Triforce alone, Power is described as a virtue.

[LionHarted]

Ganondorf and all other villains will always desire power over all else, but power has always also been associated with the Good Guys.

"Then a person clad in green appeared out of nowhere, received the power of the gods and, at the end of a desperate struggle, defeated the evil power. Peace had been returned to the land."

..."the sages [...] infused the blade with the gods' power."

There's a commentary, supposedly, according to the translator of the text for ZL, which says that this refers to the Master Sword. I don't know the source of it or the validity of that source, unfortunately.

[MikePetersSucks]

I can think of plenty of villain archetypes where a bad guy would desire Wisdom or Courage instead of Power, or unbalanced hearts that aren't evil.

[NM87]

See, I have realised that the crests are not symbols of the Triforce, but they are the Triforce pieces themselves. I wish others could arrive to that insight too. Or else you may just stick to your old theories while I'm moving on.

Jumbie, you're a nice person and all, but don't separate and reply to every single sentence with a sentence of your own. When you take out all of the bricks in a wall, its not a wall anymore.

As I said, the Triforce is a symbol of three powers, and each part contains one of those powers. Since ALTTP states that those powers are to be inherited by the person who has balance of all three and discovers the Triforce, I conclude that each power is separate from the power within the Triforce. The powers inherited by the Triforce are "one who would Conquer Power," "one who would Govern Wisdom," and "one who would Temper Courage", and are only granted to the person who is in balance of all three upon touching the Triforce. Although, Ganondorf in OOT seemingly had power when he was in possession of the Triforce, even though he could not have been granted any of there inherited powers since he did not have balance of the three. Therefore, I believe that the divine prank in TP was the action by the goddesses to give the chosen three the inherited powers of the Triforce, and it was shown in the form of crests, which those three powers are. On the other hand, the crests in OOT were there for a different reason.

And, are we to conclude ALTTP Ganon didn't have a balance of the three powers? Doesn't mater if he was good or evil, he had balance and was therefore able to obtain the entire Triforce and rule the land...although his evil heart disallowed him to return to the world of light, since he could not figure how to escape. What is the purpose of the Hero rising to defeat evil? If an evil person legitimately lays hands on the Triforce, why should he not rule the world? Of course, the goddesses know that a world of evil is not a good thing...therefore the prophecy of the Legendary Hero is born.

(Aimed mainly at NM87 who still doesn't seem to believe the Triforce is wielded during TP).

Since it is not, its powers are.

..."the sages [...] infused the blade with the gods' power."

Seems like just another quote to prove the "power of the gods" can be distributed without granting a Triforce piece.

Edited by NM87, 02 June 2008 - 12:14 AM.

[Jumbie]

Wisdom and Courage seem to be inherently good features, in contrast to Power

I wish the series would get away from that. I find it diminishing as a notion.

Well, if I was a scriptwriter, I'd find myself extremely hard pressed to come up with a villain that prefers Wisdom or Courage over Power... Even if I managed it, they would probably be deemed very implausible by the audience.

So you are arguing that either one can have the Triforce crest and relative powers without actually having the Triforce part itself or that when it enters somebody it changes into the crest, right?

I'm arguing the second explanation, that the piece changes into a crest - going from a physical existence into a "stated" existence.
A Triforce piece exists within spatial dimensions, whereas a Triforce crest is an abstract fact, something that exists outside of space.

the latter seems self evident

I don't think it is, otherwise everyone would agree that such is the case in TP.
When the chosen ones have the crest, they own a Triforce in a non-physical state - and that's nothing else than the powers of the respective Triforces, which you and NM87 say is all the people have in TP. And I am specifying now that I agree, they really are left with only the Triforce's powers because the physical pieces disappear from existence for as long as they carry their crests.

Since we can have it as easy as that, I see no need for the Triforce lying around in the Sacred Realm at the same time that three people are carrying its crests on their hands.
(Aimed mainly at NM87 who still doesn't seem to believe the Triforce is wielded during TP).

Although we see Ganondorf with the triforce of power and we think of power relating to evil more than good, I don't think we can rightfully say that power is always a bad

Again that's not what I intended to express. I should have said, "Wisdom and Courage seem to be features for the good ones, in contrast to Power which the baddies prefer".
My point is that villains typically never appreciate Wisdom and Courage equally as they do Power, leading to an imbalanced heart.
This also answers the recent posts of Raian and Lex.

Also, an imbalanced heart does not necessarily have to be evil at all in the first place and that an imbalance implies a huge focal point surrounding one or two attributes while disregarding another (that is, not the LACK of an attribute but a down-sizing of it). But, I'm probably regurgitating things you may have already agreed with...

Exactly.

The stricter and technically correct definition is what we know as discernment or insight; knowledge of what is true or right coupled with just judgment as to action (which obviously means the triforce seems to favor good individuals while deterring bad ones getting their own wishes granted or at least in full and NOT get the "true force" with this meaning).

Mhm. If an evil heart like Ganondorf's really appreciated the Wisdom to know what is morally right, we'd arrive at a paradox. Therefore I agree that the philosophical definition of wisdom has to be the one that applies to the Triforce of Wisdom.

it may be possible that he could master applicable judgment (cut his losses, ditch/kill his men?) and courage (once again, killing his peers? Entering a possibly dreadful melee?).

No questioning that Ganondorf is intelligent, fearless, and strong, but he has always been seen to value and boost his strength rather than the other two features.
By the way, Ganondorf also was with a gang in OoT, and seeking to obtain the Triforce he must've struggled with them all the same. And yet the Triforce split on him.

So, you made a very enjoyable post there! Although I still doubt Ganondorf's heart can ever be in balance. If he wants the full Triforce, he is forced to reassemble it after it has been split.

..."the sages [...] infused the blade with the gods' power."

Ah yes, a good example for other use of the term.

There's a commentary, supposedly, according to the translator of the text for ZL, which says that this refers to the Master Sword. I don't know the source of it or the validity of that source, unfortunately.

The Hylian intro texts and developer commentaries to them were taken and translated from the Zelda Box book.
The commentary to the quote I provided reads as follows:
"OoT is the episode where Link smashes Ganondorf's designs with the power of the gods and the Sword of Evil's Bane, the Master Sword."

[Jumbie]

Jumbie, you're a nice person and all, but don't separate and reply to every single sentence with a sentence of your own. When you take out all of the bricks in a wall, its not a wall anymore.

Sorry, but that's my style. I deem it clean and plain, as I need to make sure that you know which of your points my reply refers to and which not.
Parts that I don't address, I either agree with or disagree with on principle, both making them irrelevant to my reply.

As I said, the Triforce is a symbol of three powers, and each part contains one of those powers. Since ALTTP states that those powers are to be inherited by the person who has balance of all three and discovers the Triforce, I conclude that each power is separate from the power within the Triforce. The powers inherited by the Triforce are "one who would Conquer Power," "one who would Govern Wisdom," and "one who would Temper Courage", and are only granted to the person who is in balance of all three upon touching the Triforce. Although, Ganondorf in OOT seemingly had power when he was in possession of the Triforce, even though he could not have been granted any of there inherited powers since he did not have balance of the three. Therefore, I believe that the divine prank in TP was the action by the goddesses to give the chosen three the inherited powers of the Triforce, and it was shown in the form of crests, which those three powers are. On the other hand, the crests in OOT were there for a different reason.

Ah, I see... You're clearly over-interpreting that statement in ALttP's manual. And I'm sure that all those definitions of the powers you distinguish between are not actually meant to exist separately.
You give the crests a different meaning depending on which game they're in, and you give the same power various sets of rules, while I go the simple and obvious road and accept them all as one and the same thing.

And, are we to conclude ALTTP Ganon didn't have a balance of the three powers?

I definitely do so, yes. Not only because I understand the Seal War as an event parallel to OoT, but also because of what I said in my replies to Sparx401.

(Aimed mainly at NM87 who still doesn't seem to believe the Triforce is wielded during TP).

Since it is not, its powers are.

And that is nothing but fanfiction. ...Now I did have to say it.

..."the sages [...] infused the blade with the gods' power."

Seems like just another quote to prove the "power of the gods" can be distributed without granting a Triforce piece.

It proves nothing. Even if each and every item in the entire series was referred to as holding the power of the gods, the Triforce in TP would still remain *the* power of the gods that sleeps in Hyrule and is granted to the chosen bearers of the crests.

[NM87]

Ah, I see... You're clearly over-interpreting that statement in ALttP's manual. And I'm sure that all those definitions of the powers you distinguish between are not actually meant to exist separately.
You give the crests a different meaning depending on which game they're in, and you give the same power various sets of rules, while I go the simple and obvious road and accept them all as one and the same thing.

I really don?t think I am. ?It would shine in the Sacred Realm, somewhere in the world, until one who was worthy of inheriting those powers appeared.? I?ll say it again: Ganondorf in OOT was clearly not worthy and therefore did not receive those powers, yet he still had power. Those powers are only granted to someone worthy. Two separate powers. Power granted by the Triforce as pure power and inherited power granted by the Triforce. There is a reason the sages only stated Ganondorf was chosen to have power and not the ?power of the gods? in the Japanese. ALTTP Ganondorf obtained the entire Triforce, because he was worthy (in balance) to receive the True Power to govern all?he was in balance?yet he was evil.

I definitely do so, yes. Not only because I understand the Seal War as an event parallel to OoT, but also because of what I said in my replies to Sparx401.

Well, here is a difference between NM87 and Jumbie. NM87 values what is said in ALTTP over what is said in OOT. Jumbie, is the opposite.

Sorry, but that's my style. I deem it clean and plain, as I need to make sure that you know which of your points my reply refers to and which not.

My post is written as one big point. So do what you want, but know I will never trade sentence for sentence.

[CID Farwin]

I definitely do so, yes. Not only because I understand the Seal War as an event parallel to OoT, but also because of what I said in my replies to Sparx401.

Well, here is a difference between NM87 and Jumbie. NM87 values what is said in ALTTP over what is said in OOT. Jumbie, is the opposite.

Yep, that's what I thought. You accept retcons to the newer game, but the old one must be kept pristine.

Question: Did you ever see OoT as the IW?

[Sparx401]

Well, if I was a scriptwriter, I'd find myself extremely hard pressed to come up with a villain that prefers Wisdom or Courage over Power... Even if I managed it, they would probably be deemed very implausible by the audience.

Depends on the character and strength of presentation. Also, the audience may react for the better since one would be straying away from the power-hungry archetype. Of course, a villain preferring wisdom or courage over power would make his heart imbalanced and the triforce would split anyway. Having a balance, at least, would enable him to have all three attributes but that he uses them in corrupt ways.

We also have to keep in mind that when LttP debuted, the triforce being split was merely an optional thing and a conscious decision of the one who wielded it. It pretty much was this: You get the triforce, you get your heart's desires granted. You want to split up the individual pieces (and split THOSE pieces up some more)? Go right ahead! Why does it feel as if the developers seemingly undermined such an aspect of the triforce?

My point is that villains typically never appreciate Wisdom and Courage equally as they do Power, leading to an imbalanced heart.

While a plethora of villains may be like that, we can't logically jump from "Probably not" to "Probably never" to "Can't happen in this case" without any degree of warrant. I do agree that Ganon being balanced has nothing really to back it up and judging by his piggy character (and the OoT interview where they commented on Ganon's piggy form), he probably does have a severely imbalanced heart although him having a balanced heart is just...sitting there (and Nintendo doesn't give the audience the prompt that he is balanced in either the SNES or the GBA remake so even more so...)

No questioning that Ganondorf is intelligent, fearless, and strong, but he has always been seen to value and boost his strength rather than the other two features.

I could wager that courage could be an "enabler agent" to power and wisdom could be an "enabler agent" to courage and power. There are overlaps that we find all the time with such "virtues".

By the way, Ganondorf also was with a gang in OoT, and seeking to obtain the Triforce he must've struggled with them all the same. And yet the Triforce split on him.

For some reason, that cinematic sequence stroke me as just Ganondorf going in and getting it. And of course, the splitting thing didn't occur until OoT which is why I question why Nintendo would break away THAT much (and not do anything to patch it up with the GBA remake of LttP...hmm...)

So, you made a very enjoyable post there!

Ah, thank you! You are quite the intellectual yourself Jumbie as are other theorists over here (of course, I don't mean ALL theorists here )

Although I still doubt Ganondorf's heart can ever be in balance. If he wants the full Triforce, he is forced to reassemble it after it has been split.

Makes me wonder if the triforce's mechanics change over the course of "history". It firsts comes off as, "Yeah, we're going to split...no courage or wisdom Mr. Galdandorf" to, "Yeah...we're just going stay here. All three of us. Just here. BTW, here's the cupcakes you wanted Ganon!"

[FDL]

Ah, thank you! You are quite the intellectual yourself Jumbie as are other theorists over here (of course, I don't mean ALL theorists here )

Considering who your little buddy is this is probably directed at me, so I figure I should respond. You should be ashamed of yourself. First, let me explain a little bit. I am probably going through one of the most difficult periods of my life right now. I will not get into it here as I don't want to turn this into a pity party for anyone, but I felt I needed to mention it. Anyway, one of the "side-effects" of what I'm going through currently is that I'm at home [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] more than usual, and thus I came here to kill some time. Seeing this debate, I joined in. Up until my "idiotic bias" comment, I did not exhibit any more rude or disrespectful behavior than anyone else here has been and yet I am the only one who is being shunned around here. Can you explain why? I doubt it, because you're just listening to NM, who used my mistake to make me seem like some moron who comes here just to insult people. I am not that person, and the fact that NM was the first one to be told off by anyone in this thread shouldn't be forgotten. My point is, I have apologized and the person who I insulted accepted that apology. On the other hand, several other people have insulted each other in this thread and the other thread in which this was being debated and yet no one has called for everyone to "ignore" them or anything else of that nature. Do I really need to dredge up NM's old posts to prove my point? Or link you guys to the other thread. I really don't think so.

Anyway, normally I would not post something like this. Shit happens, and I'm not one to get upset over a message board. However, as I said, I don't have as much in my life at the moment, so I care a little more about having something to keep my mind off of other things. So I had to respond to what's going on right now. In my eyes, there are several of you who are being very disrespectful to me and my intelligence/debating skills. None of you have offered up an apology for these or previous actions, and yet no one calls for any of you to be shunned. On the other hand, I have apologized to both Marty himself and anyone who was offended by my comments. Yet I am the one in exile here, and my exile was called for by people who haven't been here nearly as long as I have.

Now, I didn't post this in response to just one person. I wanted to make everyone aware of what's going one here. I'm sure I will be mocked for getting this personal in a response like this, but I feel I need to stick to my guns in this matter. Hopefully it will change this situation for the better. I thank all of you who have still been respectful, like Jumbie and others. Hopefully you guys will continue to not feed into the disrespect that's being directed at me.

[LionHarted]

Seems like just another quote to prove the "power of the gods" can be distributed without granting a Triforce piece.

More like another quote that ties the gods' power to something that is obviously not a Triforce piece.

This is not the case in TP.

And of course, the splitting thing didn't occur until OoT which is why I question why Nintendo would break away THAT much (and not do anything to patch it up with the GBA remake of LttP...hmm...)

Personally, I see OoT=IW being the only way we can possibly explain the Triforce not being split in ALttP without assuming more events than are necessary to assume. Since the Triforce's power obviously cannot aid Ganon in breaking the seal, we can only presume that the Triforce could not pass through it on its own power, either, and so it would not be able to find the chosen wielders. There's no evidence for this, of course, but it obviously requires less assumption than to assume that the circumstances for a different IW will compose themselves somewhere else in the timeline, much less that OoT=IW is wrong, and that the IW's self-placement is wrong.

Edited by LionHarted, 02 June 2008 - 12:03 PM.

[Jumbie]

I really don?t think I am. ?It would shine in the Sacred Realm, somewhere in the world, until one who was worthy of inheriting those powers appeared.? I?ll say it again: Ganondorf in OOT was clearly not worthy and therefore did not receive those powers, yet he still had power. Those powers are only granted to someone worthy. Two separate powers. Power granted by the Triforce as pure power and inherited power granted by the Triforce. There is a reason the sages only stated Ganondorf was chosen to have power and not the ?power of the gods? in the Japanese. ALTTP Ganondorf obtained the entire Triforce, because he was worthy (in balance) to receive the True Power to govern all?he was in balance?yet he was evil.

But don't you see that OoT Ganondorf did receive one of those three powers? ALttP's manual says "worthy of inheriting those powers", and while Ganondorf was not worthy of keeping all three, he was however worthy of keeping one of them, the "one who would conquer power".

The mistake you make is that you assume ALttP meant that the three powers can only ever be bestowed all three together. This is fundamentally why I think you're over-interpreting it.
From ALttP we learnt that one must be worthy to get the Triforce, and from OoT we learned that if one is not worthy to get the entire Triforce, that one can still be worthy to keep at least one third of it. That's the straightforward, combined knowledge from both games, and you instead try to segregate what either game says. I don't think that should be done.

Well, here is a difference between NM87 and Jumbie. NM87 values what is said in ALTTP over what is said in OOT. Jumbie, is the opposite.

OoT is the live and more detailed account of how things really happened, so of course I stick to what it says, rather than weighing every single little word they put into ALttP at a time when the Triforce mechanics were not even fully thought out yet...

My post is written as one big point. So do what you want, but know I will never trade sentence for sentence.

Fine. I will not conform to one member's personal reading preferences. I myself just cannot deal which huge, unnecessarily repeated chunks of text.

We also have to keep in mind that when LttP debuted, the triforce being split was merely an optional thing and a conscious decision of the one who wielded it. It pretty much was this: You get the triforce, you get your heart's desires granted. You want to split up the individual pieces (and split THOSE pieces up some more)? Go right ahead! Why does it feel as if the developers seemingly undermined such an aspect of the triforce?

They didn't undermine it. That's just what a person has the option to do once they already own the Triforce. It was like that from LoZ to ALttP, but ever since OoT introduced the imbalance split, ALttP's account of things seems to be far from the real events.

I do agree that Ganon being balanced has nothing really to back it up and judging by his piggy character (and the OoT interview where they commented on Ganon's piggy form), he probably does have a severely imbalanced heart although him having a balanced heart is just...sitting there (and Nintendo doesn't give the audience the prompt that he is balanced in either the SNES or the GBA remake so even more so...)

Yes, nowhere is it said that Ganon ever has a balanced heart. OoT states the complete opposite, although it was designed as ALttP's backstory. All we are told in ALttP is that Ganon acquired "the Triforce", which may refer to one piece just as well as to all three pieces.

Makes me wonder if the triforce's mechanics change over the course of "history". It firsts comes off as, "Yeah, we're going to split...no courage or wisdom Mr. Galdandorf" to, "Yeah...we're just going stay here. All three of us. Just here. BTW, here's the cupcakes you wanted Ganon!"

Rather than the mechanics changing, I prefer to think ALttP's manual and in-game are (nowadays) presenting things in a different light than what really happened.

Personally, I see OoT=IW being the only way we can possibly explain the Triforce not being split in ALttP without assuming more events than are necessary to assume. Since the Triforce's power obviously cannot aid Ganon in breaking the seal, we can only presume that the Triforce could not pass through it on its own power, either, and so it would not be able to find the chosen wielders. There's no evidence for this, of course, but it obviously requires less assumption than to assume that the circumstances for a different IW will compose themselves somewhere else in the timeline, much less that OoT=IW is wrong, and that the IW's self-placement is wrong.

That theory is a very good alternative! Even though I doubt that the Triforce cannot cross the sages' seal.

[Raien]

I recently wrote this in the Symbolism topic, but I think it's relevant to discussion here:

One important piece of symbolism which ties to OoT, is that the Triforce as a whole represents order and balance (which is symbolically tied to peace). This once again ties with the creation story, where it was said the goddesses brought order to a world of chaos. And thus chaos is representative of imbalance (and symbolically tied to war and destruction). So just as we have Benevolence and Evil, Light and Darkness, we have Order and Chaos, Balance and Imbalance. All these things tie together, because a balanced heart seeks order and is thus benevolent, whereas an imbalanced heart seeks chaos and is thus evil. This is ultimately what separates the hearts of Link and Zelda from Ganondorf, and this is why the goddesses are never represented as individuals. It could be interpreted that if the goddesses represent single virtues, they could be imbalanced and thus chaotic, which contradicts the symbolism inherent to the creation story.

Despite what ALTTP's manual says about the Triforce being unable to distinguish benevolence from evil, that's exactly what happens in OoT with the Triforce-split. Ganondorf had an imbalanced heart by desiring power, and that made him evil. The Triforce responded to the imbalance by splitting, and so it could recognise Ganondorf's evil character due to the imbalance. And yet the Triforce-split is the only example in which the Triforce has made this distinction, and so I don't think it shows a general change in mythology. Rather, I think the symbolism has been changed only in the Triforce-splitting event for the purposes of making that event possible.

Edited by Raian, 02 June 2008 - 01:21 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Well, if I was a scriptwriter, I'd find myself extremely hard pressed to come up with a villain that prefers Wisdom or Courage over Power... Even if I managed it, they would probably be deemed very implausible by the audience.

"I shall learn all there is to learn in this world, and then I shall destroy it so I won't have to keep learning."

Makes me wonder if the triforce's mechanics change over the course of "history". It firsts comes off as, "Yeah, we're going to split...no courage or wisdom Mr. Galdandorf" to, "Yeah...we're just going stay here. All three of us. Just here. BTW, here's the cupcakes you wanted Ganon!"

I did have the idea that, since the Triforce must work on a Cosmic, Eternal scale, it views all incarnations of a soul as one person, so a reincarnation of Ganondorf is still the same Ganondorf who split it, so trying to claim it again counts as a "Reassembling" to the Triforce.

Basically, the Triforce might only split once per soul.

[LionHarted]

I did have the idea that, since the Triforce must work on a Cosmic, Eternal scale, it views all incarnations of a soul as one person, so a reincarnation of Ganondorf is still the same Ganondorf who split it, so trying to claim it again counts as a "Reassembling" to the Triforce.

Basically, the Triforce might only split once per soul.

And grants Link multiple wishes?

[Sparx401]

Considering who your little buddy is this is probably directed at me, so I figure I should respond.

My little buddy? Are you talking about Jumbie? I just think he's an asset to the forums since he's translating a lot of stuff (as well as MPS who gives insight on the Japanese culture that probably influenced certain character actions or some such). When I meant "not ALL theorists", I was talking about Lex (sorry, I originally saw him on GameFAQs but I don't mean to be offensive like a certain other poster who has a vendetta against him). I seriously don't even know who YOU are and what stances you take and how you debate and whatnot, so please do not take my comments out of proportion (is the semantics issue on this forum penetrating THIS deep?!!) None of my comments are hardly HARDLY HARDLY derogatory or meant to disparage a person (as I live by the phrase, "Be egalitarian with people, but be elitist with ideas"). Probably the one and only person that chips my block is a poster named Coleby on GameFAQs (and even then I don't jump on his back; I always give him "another chance" and start debating on a positive note). I do hope that whatever goes on in your life is rectified as you seem to be very perturbed like that of a gentle, fragile heart.

And grants Link multiple wishes?

Didn't LttP say that you get whatever your heart desired while OoT and WW say that you get your wish granted? If we go by what LttP says, then the triforce may do various things and not necessarily one specific action. The king's wish in the WW was multiple statements and the triforce first started granting his wish to wash away Hyrule (we don't know how the triforce will grant his other wish for Link and Tetra to have hope for the future). So either it can grant multiple wishes via a verbal request or it will do multiple actions if the wish is broad (i.e. - You wish for restoration in Hyrule, then people will come back, get better, etc).

All we are told in ALttP is that Ganon acquired "the Triforce", which may refer to one piece just as well as to all three pieces.

At the time LttP was released, it was the entire triforce since the original LoZ talked about the pieces by their specific title and not just "triforce". Seeing the triforce all at once in LttP also gives some credence to it.

[NM87]

But don't you see that OoT Ganondorf did receive one of those three powers? ALttP's manual says "worthy of inheriting those powers", and while Ganondorf was not worthy of keeping all three, he was however worthy of keeping one of them, the "one who would conquer power".

I knew you would present this to me. The answer is simply that, Ganondorf wasn't even worthy of that inherited power.

Without a strong, righteous mind, he could not control the power of the gods?

...he wasn't worthy to Conquer Power seven years after obtaining the Triforce and he was never worthy of it back then.

I was so young...I could not comprehend the consequences of trying to control the Sacred Realm.

Neither was Zelda.

So Ganondorf wasn?t able to control power and Zelda wasn?t wise enough to know the consequences of her actions. When Ganondorf had touched the Triforce, neither of them were worthy to receive the inherited powers, and therefore could have been granted those powers. The thing is, the chosen ones still seemed to have power! So it must have been a different power than the ones granted by the Triforce to the person who is deserving to gain the True Force to govern all and use those powers to rule the land.

The mistake you make is that you assume ALttP meant that the three powers can only ever be bestowed all three together. This is fundamentally why I think you're over-interpreting it.
From ALttP we learnt that one must be worthy to get the Triforce, and from OoT we learned that if one is not worthy to get the entire Triforce, that one can still be worthy to keep at least one third of it. That's the straightforward, combined knowledge from both games, and you instead try to segregate what either game says. I don't think that should be done.

No, ALTTP tells us of the power within the Triforce and OOT tells us how it can be distributed separately.

Please respond to this (If you only want to respond to specific sentences): Ganondorf has power in OOT yet doesn?t appear to be worthy of the power bestowed by the Triforce to earn him the inherited power of the one who would ?Conquer Power?.

OoT is the live and more detailed account of how things really happened, so of course I stick to what it says, rather than weighing every single little word they put into ALttP at a time when the Triforce mechanics were not even fully thought out yet...

Excuses.

[NM87]

Despite what ALTTP's manual says about the Triforce being unable to distinguish benevolence from evil, that's exactly what happens in OoT with the Triforce-split. Ganondorf had an imbalanced heart by desiring power, and that made him evil. The Triforce responded to the imbalance by splitting, and so it could recognise Ganondorf's evil character due to the imbalance.

Who is to say that desiring power makes a person evil? The fact that the Triforce detects and imbalance makes a person evil? So what happens if someone had courage imbalanced...would they be evil?

[LionHarted]

To Sparx401: You misunderstand me. I'm talking about Link wishing in LoZ and ALttP.

At the time LttP was released, it was the entire triforce since the original LoZ talked about the pieces by their specific title and not just "triforce".

ONES WHO DOES NOT HAVE TRIFORCE CAN'T GO IN

You can obtain the Triforce only by defeating that guardian.

[NM87]

To Sparx401: You misunderstand me. I'm talking about Link wishing in LoZ and ALttP.

At the time LttP was released, it was the entire triforce since the original LoZ talked about the pieces by their specific title and not just "triforce".

ONES WHO DOES NOT HAVE TRIFORCE CAN'T GO IN

You can obtain the Triforce only by defeating that guardian.

You are quoting me? I had never said that, Spark did, and he wasn't wrong about anything. Besides, a piece of the Triforce is called "a Triforce" throughout the series. So Ganondorf has a Triforce in LOZ as does Zelda. Read the AOL manual for more detail. The Triforce was originally intended to be three separate Triforce combined as one, not simply three Triforce pieces. Everyone forgets his.

[Sparx401]

...he wasn't worthy to Conquer Power seven years after obtaining the Triforce and he was never worthy of it back then.

Actually NM87...it seems as though Zelda's quote only talks about Ganondorf being able to control his power (as in "handle it" [possibly efficiently? Able to mentally handle it?]). It has very little to do with worth and what the goddesses deem as who has high value and who has not. That quote does further establish that the goddesses favor good over evil since you not only need a strong mind, you also need a righteous mind. You may argue that being worthy means that you need a strong, righteous mind, but that is hardly the case because Ganondorf was able to use his piece for seven years and turn Hyrule into an almost dilapidated country. When Link comes and initially defeats him, it is as if he can't handle the other power of the gods--that of courage (even he says that he underestimated its power...) So while at first the objection seems good, it sort of falls apart when you look at it in this respect. Ganondorf was not worthy to get the entire triforce, yes, but to say he is still not worthy is sort of odd. In order to "prove his worth" (so-to-speak), he has to seek out the other two pieces (similar to how Link in WW proves his worth to the gods by finding and reassembling the triforce of courage). If he wasn't worthy to even have a broken piece (or anyone for that matter...), then why did it serve him well in OoT (not in the fullest that Ganondorf wanted though) when Link was absent?

Neither was Zelda.

Ah! The quote you cited doesn't seem to imply anything about worth at all! Zelda says she was to young to see the full scale effects of what the Master Sword was and the whole ordeal of the Sacred Realm. It is quite possible that she did not know the legends of the Sheikah about the triforce that she tells Link towards the end of the game and thus she is sorry for her ignorance when she was younger. She did not expect for the Master Sword to force Link into sleep in order to be the fulfilled Hero of Time; she thought that Link would simply go in the Sacred Realm and get the triforce before Ganondorf. I truly do not know how this quote is related to whether Zelda is worthy of having her own piece or not (despite being chosen by destiny?!) so if you could elaborate on both Ganondorf's quote and hers...

Also, I'm pretty darn sure that Ganondorf, Zelda, and even Link have their respective pieces because Ganondorf curses our protagonists when he is being sealed and says he will destroy their descendants as long as he has the triforce of power. We also see Ganondorf still having his piece and it is explicitly shown to us at the end of the game along with Link and Zelda. We know that the hero of time had his piece because when he left the adult timeline, his piece broke. Zelda had her piece because we know it to be passed down the Royal Family line (Tetra and the KoRL have the two chunks).

No, ALTTP tells us of the power within the Triforce and OOT tells us how it can be distributed separately.

Actually, both games tell us about the power of the triforce. LttP says in a sort of ambiguous way that the triforce would continue to shine prettily in the Sacred Realm until someone worthy appears, and if we were back in 1994, we could very well NOT believe that ONLY a worthy person could touch it (the triforce is only waiting to be used by someone worthy). When OoT came out, it dispelled the ambiguity by saying that YES, someone does have to be worthy (i.e. balanced heart) to have the full triforce. If such a person is not worthy, they only get one piece (the force that they most believe in) and have to prove their worth (not explicitly stated but it seems apparent) by getting the other two pieces. The only thing I disagree with Jumbie is that of the original intent of LttP: I personally do not think that the developers had the idea of "you need to be worthy or else..." when it first debuted; we have no known knowledge of what happens if a person isn't worthy and that consequence of the "or else..." was created when OoT was in development a couple of years later.

Ganondorf has power in OOT yet doesn?t appear to be worthy of the power bestowed by the Triforce to earn him the inherited power of the one who would ?Conquer Power?.

I know this post may already be a long read so I'll put my points in a list format:

1) Ganondorf doesn't appear to be worthy of the triforce and therefore doesn't get the entire thing. He is not worthy, yes, and that's why he gets only one piece.

2) Wind Waker can attest to this since it features the same Ganondorf who still has his triforce piece (which he exclaimed that he had with his final words in OoT actually) and also Zelda who we know by deduction that she had her piece passed down her line.

3) The title "Conquerer of Power" is ascribed to the actual triforce crest itself, not the person who gets it. The translation guide to LttP says this in the comments section:

These parts of the Triforce don't seem to be titles that are bestowed, like the American version says. these are names for what literally make up the Triforce.

4) Your quotes that you cited from OoT do not seem to be related at all to being worthy of a triforce piece or not. In fact, Sheik's little speech about the triforce splitting was to help explain why Ganondorf had the power to have Hyrule at his feet and why he wanted to find the "other pieces".

5) We do not have any requisites from any games that establish what needs to be done in order for a person to get THEIR piece and only talk about what they need to do to obtain the true force to govern all (that is if they originally touched it; so WW Link's case doesn't really count) so it would be odd for Nintendo to even imply something like that.

6) Do we have any evidence that speaks of just "power" alone and not the actual pieces outside of TP despite LttP showing us the triforce entirely, OoT explicitly referencing the power and "pieces" after the triforce is split up, and WW showing us that OoT characters did have the pieces and we actually saw the pieces on-screen.

Oh, and Lex, I know you were talking about Link wishing in LttP which is why I brought up a small discussion about how the triforce could grant multiple things based on one broad wish (or how the KoRL in WW was able to have more than one wish granted; washing away Hyrule and giving hope to Link and Tetra).

Also, the AoL manual was actually specific in context. Yes, not EVERY time "triforce" means the entire three, but if you read a few portions before the quote you actually cite, it establishes that it was talking about the triforce of courage (so the script writer wouldn't always have to say "triforce of courage" all the time). Not really a good example though. Generally speaking, if a person just says "triforce" without any preceding hint of a specific piece(whether an establishment of a specific piece or in the context of the full relic splitting), then we are to assume it is the entire triforce. Since the title of that piece was called triforce of courage, it is perfectly reasonable to shorten it to "triforce". So yes, they talk about the entire triforce unless they specify a specific piece beforehand. LttP makes it clear that it is the entire triforce because we see know precedence of talk about a specific piece or splitting. The same thing could go for LoZ, although we could fall back on the explanation that space was limited (it's not even a complete sentence; the precedence given in the manual is the triforce of wisdom).

[Jumbie]

Well, if I was a scriptwriter, I'd find myself extremely hard pressed to come up with a villain that prefers Wisdom or Courage over Power... Even if I managed it, they would probably be deemed very implausible by the audience.

"I shall learn all there is to learn in this world, and then I shall destroy it so I won't have to keep learning."

Huh, where is that from?

But don't you see that OoT Ganondorf did receive one of those three powers? ALttP's manual says "worthy of inheriting those powers", and while Ganondorf was not worthy of keeping all three, he was however worthy of keeping one of them, the "one who would conquer power".

I knew you would present this to me. The answer is simply that, Ganondorf wasn't even worthy of that inherited power.

That's simply not true!
As for the two misinterpreted OoT quotes you brought up, Sparx401 did an excellent job at showing how you are wrong, so I don't have to address that again.

So Ganondorf wasn?t able to control power and Zelda wasn?t wise enough to know the consequences of her actions. When Ganondorf had touched the Triforce, neither of them were worthy to receive the inherited powers, and therefore could have been granted those powers.

That's utter nonsense. Since Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf were assigned the crests in OoT, they are the three most worthy people to have the respective Triforces' powers. It's as simple as that. F-A-C-T.

The thing is, the chosen ones still seemed to have power! So it must have been a different power than the ones granted by the Triforce to the person who is deserving to gain the True Force to govern all and use those powers to rule the land.

No, it must not be different powers, only in your fanfiction theory.
The complete Triforce only ever grants one power, and that is to pronounce a wish. Those fancy titles on which you insist obviously refer to the three pieces, and as such, they are the very same powers that Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf receive in OoT, TWW, and TP.

Please respond to this (If you only want to respond to specific sentences): Ganondorf has power in OOT yet doesn?t appear to be worthy of the power bestowed by the Triforce to earn him the inherited power of the one who would ?Conquer Power?.

That's a complete baseless bullshit. To rephrase your argumentation: You said Ganondorf does get the power but still he's not worthy of the power to get the power of the one who has power?! Oh gimme a break and look at the bollocks you're saying...

OoT is the live and more detailed account of how things really happened, so of course I stick to what it says, rather than weighing every single little word they put into ALttP at a time when the Triforce mechanics were not even fully thought out yet...

Excuses.

What? Just for the record, since you probably think I value OoT more than ALttP: I value ALttP so much that I would never in a thousand years dare destroy the connection it has always had with OoT. And that's the one and only reason why I accuse ALttP of not spelling out the literal truth.

At the time LttP was released, it was the entire triforce since the original LoZ talked about the pieces by their specific title and not just "triforce".

ONES WHO DOES NOT HAVE TRIFORCE CAN'T GO IN

You can obtain the Triforce only by defeating that guardian.

Thanks so much for proving my point!

[Hero of Legend]

That's utter nonsense. Since Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf were assigned the crests in OoT, they are the three most worthy people to have the respective Triforces' powers. It's as simple as that. F-A-C-T.

That's not entirely correct: OoT speaks only of two chosen ones. Though Ganondorf does have the crest, he's not actually said to be chosen or most worthy of the ToP. On the other hand, he is definitely indirectly chosen - as Sparx said, he has been given the opportunity to prove himself worthy of the Triforce. Still, OoT makes a distinction here and although I don?t think it means anything (in relation to TP) we should recognize that.

Zelda's comment about Ganondorf's being unable to control the power of the ToP, which ultimately led to his demise likely has something to do with this, though as we know, she was actually mistaken about this.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 03 June 2008 - 07:52 AM.

[Raien]

As I pointed out in another topic, being "chosen by the goddesses" simply means "being singled out as important by the goddesses". Ganondorf was not chosen in OoT, because he was not singled out to wield power; he took that power himself. Link and Zelda, on the other hand, were singled out to wield the Triforce of Courage and Wisdom respectively, which makes them "chosen".

Of course, Ganondorf believed himself to be chosen in TP, and I can't help but think of that as validation of the point that Ganondorf was singled out to wield power.

[Hero of Legend]

Yeah, I thought that was self evident.

[NM87]

Long ago, when Hyrule was still one country, a great King was said to have used the Triforce to maintain order in Hyrule.

There is one example of a person who gained the True Force to govern all which is the ancient King of Hyrule in AOL. I would bet that this person was granted the three powers that would govern all addition to the "power of the gods". Ganon in ALTTP had obtained the entire Triforce as well, and therefore was worthy of the True Force. He was evil, and as Raian has proven, the world would fall into chaos, against the goddesses wishes. Since they had known that an evil person could possibly find the Triforce they took necessary measures to prevent that person from completing his discovery.

Since Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf were assigned the crests in OoT, they are the three most worthy people to have the respective Triforces' powers. It's as simple as that. F-A-C-T.

OOT Ganondorf was not a chosen one, he had the Power Triforce because he had took it. Zelda was no chosen or singled out to receive the Wisdom Triforce because of her wisdom attributes, she received the piece because she was the princess of destiny. Link did not obtain the Courage Triforce because he was courageous, it was because he was the hero destined to appear. It all has to do with destiny in OOT, not that any of these people were worthy of receiving a Triforce. This is what I was trying to convey with the quotes, but I really should have just gotten to the point.

No matter how much you think I am over-interpreting ALTTP, it clearly states someone must be worthy to receive those powers.

Sparx, I understand that the powers I describe are said to be the Triforce itself, yet my point is that we know Ganondorf was not worthy to receive those powers, yet he still obtains a piece and he still gets some amount of power, but how can it be the power that only a worthy person is able to receive?

[LionHarted]

You are quoting me? I had never said that, Spark did, and he wasn't wrong about anything.

Apologies. I never meant to quote anyone; I just saw the phrase and your name in the same screen. XD

Besides, a piece of the Triforce is called "a Triforce" throughout the series. So Ganondorf has a Triforce in LOZ as does Zelda. Read the AOL manual for more detail. The Triforce was originally intended to be three separate Triforce combined as one, not simply three Triforce pieces. Everyone forgets his.

Right, but if someone has the "Triforce," that doesn't necessarily have to mean that they have even multiple Triforces, since in the overwhelming majority of examples they don't.

In LoZ, Link needs the "Triforce" to get into Death Mountain, but when he approaches it, he has only the Triforce of Wisdom.
In AoL, Link is supposed to get the "Triforce" from the Great Palace, but only the Triforce of Courage is there.
Similarly, the AoL king who preceded the prince and whose daughter was the first Princess Zelda ruled Hyrule with "the Triforce." (Depending whether you take the "first Princess Zelda" literally, this could mean the whole Triforce or a segment by default.)
In the IW, Ganon used the power of the "Triforce" to attack Hyrule, but we know from OoT's telling of the IW that he only possessed the Triforce of Power.
In TWW, Ganon is said to have taken the "golden power," but obviously he only stole the Triforce of Power in OoT.
In TP, the chosen have the "chosen power of the gods," which refers not to the full Triforce but to the segments.

Sparx, I understand that the powers I describe are said to be the Triforce itself, yet my point is that we know Ganondorf was not worthy to receive those powers, yet he still obtains a piece and he still gets some amount of power, but how can it be the power that only a worthy person is able to receive?

Does it say that only a worthy person can receive it, or that the Triforce will always wait for someone worthy to receive it?

[Raien]

Another recent addition to the Symbology topic:

The reason why we never see "greed for courage" or "greed for wisdom" is that courage and wisdom are states of mind, whereas power is an interaction between multiple people and/or forces. Due to this fact, added wisdom or courage would have no significant (or destructive) impact upon the world, and thus the player would have problems finding something inherently wrong with it; certainly something that could be called an imbalance of the heart. After all, the imbalance of the heart has to have negative consequences in order for there to be a meaningful purpose for depriving someone of the Triforce's wish, and in Ganondorf's case, that negative consequence was the destruction of the world. If Zelda wanted all the world's wisdom, would that desire lead to negative consequences and thus justify splitting the Triforce? I don't think so, and so I don't think we will ever see such a desire depicted as an imbalance of the heart.