323 replies to this topic

[Showsni]

There might be nothing wrong with someone having wisdom, but to obtain it is a different matter. I'm sure there are plenty of examples of people who have done evil to obtain wisdom - a mad scientist performing cruel experiments, say, or someone launching a war to obtain an item that conveys all knowledge.

[LionHarted]

The reason why we never see "greed for courage" or "greed for wisdom" is that courage and wisdom are states of mind, whereas power is an interaction between multiple people and/or forces.

I can think of examples for both.

For wisdom, just follow Showsni's example. There are villains in several installments of several series who do evil acts in order to gain knowledge, and not always for the sake of obtaining power.

A similar example would be the one who seeks to display "courage" to gain something for himself, rather than for the good of all. This of course would not be true courage.

[Raien]

For wisdom, just follow Showsni's example. There are villains in several installments of several series who do evil acts in order to gain knowledge, and not always for the sake of obtaining power.

I know there are examples where people have committed evil to gain wisdom/courage, but there are no comparative examples in which the act of obtaining wisdom/courage leads to evil as a consequence. If an act of seeking wisdom is to gain power, then ultimately it is power that the person desires (and where the heart leans).

Edited by Raian, 03 June 2008 - 02:34 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

And grants Link multiple wishes?

Sure. It's supposed to serve him for his entire life.

Huh, where is that from?

Made it up. There's plenty of villains in fiction that wish for knowledge, or to know everything, regardless of the cost, and simply want to know for the sake of knowledge itself. The same goes for courage.

OOT Ganondorf was not a chosen one, he had the Power Triforce because he had took it.

It dwelled within him, so he was chosen.

Zelda was no chosen or singled out to receive the Wisdom Triforce because of her wisdom attributes, she received the piece because she was the princess of destiny.

She was the Princess of Destiny and Leader of the Sages, thus the wisest in the land.

Link did not obtain the Courage Triforce because he was courageous, it was because he was the hero destined to appear.

He was the destined hero because only he had the courage and spiritual fortitude to defeat Ganondorf.

I know there are examples where people have committed evil to gain wisdom/courage, but there are no comparative examples in which the act of obtaining wisdom/courage leads to evil as a consequence. If an act of seeking wisdom is to gain power, then ultimately it is power that the person desires (and where the heart leans).

What about someone who uses power to gain knowledge? Like someone who uses their fast magical abilities to absorb knowledge from people's souls and then kills them to prevent them from generating new knowledge to learn? Or someone who uses time travel to go back and see the origin of the universe (which in fiction is depicted as "Really Super Bad, Yo.")

[Hero of Legend]

A similar example would be the one who seeks to display "courage" to gain something for himself, rather than for the good of all. This of course would not be true courage.

I didn't know courage was dependent upon altruism. In fact, I'm fairly sure it is not, just as power and wisdom do not have to be.

As for villains and thier motives, I think the reason most evil people would desire power over the other virtues is that with power, you don't need courage or wisdom. You can still beat the shit out of everyone that opposes you. However, the reverse is not true. Courage without power and wisdom only makes you a reckless fool. Wisdom alone does not enable you to rule the world, and is therefore less desirable than power (unless knowledge is what you desire).

Edited by Hero of Legend, 03 June 2008 - 03:56 PM.

[FDL]

Considering who your little buddy is this is probably directed at me, so I figure I should respond.

My little buddy? Are you talking about Jumbie? I just think he's an asset to the forums since he's translating a lot of stuff (as well as MPS who gives insight on the Japanese culture that probably influenced certain character actions or some such). When I meant "not ALL theorists", I was talking about Lex (sorry, I originally saw him on GameFAQs but I don't mean to be offensive like a certain other poster who has a vendetta against him). I seriously don't even know who YOU are and what stances you take and how you debate and whatnot, so please do not take my comments out of proportion (is the semantics issue on this forum penetrating THIS deep?!!) None of my comments are hardly HARDLY HARDLY derogatory or meant to disparage a person (as I live by the phrase, "Be egalitarian with people, but be elitist with ideas"). Probably the one and only person that chips my block is a poster named Coleby on GameFAQs (and even then I don't jump on his back; I always give him "another chance" and start debating on a positive note). I do hope that whatever goes on in your life is rectified as you seem to be very perturbed like that of a gentle, fragile heart.

Actually I meant NM, as after he claimed I was merely here to insult people and asked that people ignore me no one has responded to a single one of my posts. However, as you may have guessed, I was feeling really bad yesterday and made things more of a big deal than they really were. Forgive me, and I thank you for clearing things up. I am not normally one of a "gentle heart", but I think we all become such a person during times of personal turmoil. I do, at least.

As a general response to this topic, on the issue of Ganondorf being chosen that's being discussed presently, I have to say I believe he was chosen in OoT. The quote from TWW I provided a while back sorta proves that I think. Despite the fact that Link actively hunts down and unifies the ToC, he is still considered as "chosen" by the KoRL. If hunting down the Triforce and then having it reside within your body is something that constitutes being chosen in one game, why not another? If the Link of TWW is chosen, then the Ganondorf of OoT is as well. If he was not chosen, the Triforce would not reside in his body.

[Sparx401]

There is one example of a person who gained the True Force to govern all which is the ancient King of Hyrule in AOL. I would bet that this person was granted the three powers that would govern all addition to the "power of the gods".

Yes, the King in AoL did probably have the True Force to govern all, but that quote says nothing about additional "power". You're just using the quote to fit your theory (which is odd considering you're "betting" on it...not very concrete at all; we also aren't warranted in going from "I think" to "I know" to "This is factual" as a means of extrapolating a quote). Also, in context of when AoL first came out, I highly doubt that they had anything "additional" other than the triforce itself so I don't think AoL even alludes to such a notion.

Ganon in ALTTP had obtained the entire Triforce as well, and therefore was worthy of the True Force.

As what Lex stated earlier, the triforce was only waiting for someone worthy, not necessarily "not working" or "splitting" (since the concept didn't appear until OoT) for an unworthy person. Like I said earlier, we can't say, "Because Ganon obtained the entire triforce..." because during the time LttP was developed, it was a non-issue. People who obtained the triforce had the triforce in full (and if they wanted to split it on their own accord then they could do so), so the initial proposition in the quote I excerpted seems a bit "off" (and just as well as the true force thing--that didn't really appear until OoT. In the time of LttP, the triforce just gave you immense power/granted your heart's desires anyway so whether you get the "True Force" or just a "part" is not even a relevant issue; you get the whole "shebang").

Since they had known that an evil person could possibly find the Triforce they took necessary measures to prevent that person from completing his discovery.

They did take preventative measures, yes (and here's what the translation guide says on what they actually did):

However, it could not be assumed that only a good person would get their hands on the Triforce. For that reason, the people of Hyrule were told by the gods to make something that would repulse any evil that may kidnap the Triforce: the blade of evil's bane.

There is nothing that says the goddesses just gave Ganon "power" as a consolation prize. It would be odd to have Ganon take the triforce, become the evil king, then have the triforce hidden away in a room where he can easily still get it and NOT be its owner yet still have some "other power" (seemingly on par with the triforce itself? Why not just give it to him then and stop beating around the bush? If he only just had some sort of power, then it is THAT that caused the Seal War and sounds like a stupid [pointless] action of the gods).

Zelda was no chosen or singled out to receive the Wisdom Triforce because of her wisdom attributes, she received the piece because she was the princess of destiny.

These chosen ones must have, at the very least, have that attribute held higher in their heart than the other two and it appears that Zelda holds wisdom (choice, "good" judgment [hiding as a Sheikah, helping the hero of time, not revealing identity?], gained knowledge after bout of ignorance as a child) higher than power or courage. The fact that she imparts her knowledge to Link after her ignorance/lack of knowledge about the mechanics of the Master Sword and the Sacred Realm shows that she holds wisdom in high esteem.

Link did not obtain the Courage Triforce because he was courageous, it was because he was the hero destined to appear.

A hero is always destined to appear when an evil person gets a hold of the triforce though, so him getting the triforce isn't the reason (i.e. - The Great Cataclysm). Destiny and being chosen are two different things though, since we can say WW Link was destined to stop what OoT started (that is, Ganondorf and the whole split triforce thing that lasted hundreds of years), but he wasn't chosen by the gods initially. Ganondorf also says that "it must be called fate that here in this ancient kingdom I get the triforce," (as a paraphrase off the top of my head), but that doesn't mean that Link coming to Hyrule was simply destiny and he wasn't really a hero at all.

In a sense, Link did obtain t he triforce of courage due to his courage because at the very least, he has courage held higher than power and wisdom and because he holds courage higher than the other two, it is quite possible that this is the reason why the gods had him as a chosen one and therefore, the potential possessor of the triforce of courage. Basically, being destined to appear and getting a triforce piece is somewhat interrelated, but not causal of each other.

It all has to do with destiny in OOT, not that any of these people were worthy of receiving a Triforce.

Destiny did in fact play a big role, but one of the facets of destiny had little to do with being worthy to receive a triforce piece.

1) Being worthy had to deal the person's own inner attributes, and in that sense, Ganondorf was NOT worthy to inherit the entire triforce, and ended up with just the piece of power.

2) Being chosen had to deal with the gods own choice outside of the will of the people being chosen. This can go with worth because the gods could be able to use their "worth" to indicate who gets what piece (or at least "potentially").

3) Being destined is even more so "outside" than the other two and it means that events will play out one way or another. The triforce being split and given to people who are chosen means that the entire event could be destined, but that in itself is not a reason for WHY the effects of the event happened (as in, why did the triforce piece go to XXX?). Destiny only deals with what happened.

it clearly states someone must be worthy to receive those powers.

Can we have the quote? The one I got from the LttP translation guide only says it is waiting for someone worthy. It is a declarative statement, not a conditional statement. I don't see how these help your stance because there is nothing in either OoT or LttP that had the idea of obtaining the power of the gods outside of a triforce piece: You're implementing a newer concept to older games that don't have (and didn't intend to have at the time) it!

yet my point is that we know Ganondorf was not worthy to receive those powers, yet he still obtains a piece

I do not know why this would be an issue because that's what's supposed to happen: He is SUPPOSED to get ONE piece because he wasn't worthy to receive the FULL power. It's as if the gods were saying, "Nope, sorry Ganondorf, you're not worthy, but here's a consolation prize. You want to prove your worth? You want to get the ultimate power? Go find the other two pieces within the people that actually were worthy!" So basically:

1) If you touch the triforce and have a balanced heart, you get all three pieces and wield the full force.

2) If you touch the triforce and do NOT have a balanced heart, you WILL get one piece and the other two will go to two chosen ones.

So when we see Ganondorf is not worthy to receive those powers, we (and the games) mean that he isn't worthy to receive the entire power in full, but the "ruling"/mechanics of the triforce was to bestow upon him ONLY one piece.

and he still gets some amount of power,

He gets some amount of power because he has the triforce of power (which is perfectly reasonable since he touched the triforce and the triforce only gave him one piece because his heart wasn't balanced). All three pieces seem to hold power since Ganondorf himself says he underestimated the power of the triforce of courage.

but how can it be the power that only a worthy person is able to receive?

It isn't the full power; it is THAT power he didn't receive. He only has "some" of the full triforce powers...that's why he was seeking the other two, because he didn't get the full power he wanted. Now, I know you probably could say, "but isn't it THAT power that a worthy person must have?" and the answer to that is no. Ganondorf wasn't worthy but he got a piece as per the mechanics of the triforce: It is the inevitable effects of the split that nets Ganondorf his piece, not because he was worthy.

I'm pretty sure I sounded VERY redundant so I'm sorry if you feel like I'm saying the same thing over and over again.

If an act of seeking wisdom is to gain power, then ultimately it is power that the person desires.

Yes, but what difference does it make? The person's intentions may not have to necessarily reflect what is in their heart. It's a bit defunct when you think about it, because then, every person, good or evil, would want to obtain the triforce (which in turn means they want ultimate power) but that means, EVERYONE who touches it will undoubtedly split the triforce. It is not the goal of power that causes the imbalance so much as what your heart yearns to do with such power and if you are sufficiently mindful of wisdom and courage as well. In any case, the excerpted quote seems to imply that such a person has wisdom AND power, but not courage (which would be imbalanced anyway). If a person seeks courage and wisdom to gain power, based on what you say, then wouldn't they have all three in tow? It is not like courage is an object where you can use then drop once you get power--like you said, it is a virtue so there WILL be character change anyway (at least on a scaled level considering it deals with the heart, not the mind). I don't see how someone who obtains courage and wisdom gets power, then once he's eligible, he simply "drops" his wisdom and courage because he's power hungry? The end goal does not make one virtue supersede another necessarily. Likewise, if a good person needs wisdom and power with getting courage as his ultimate goal (nothing to do with the triforce at this point; i.e. wants to save his family?) that does not mean courage supersedes wisdom and power if he actually DOES obtain wisdom and power (because that's the only thing he has at the beginning anyway!)

[LionHarted]

I didn't know courage was dependent upon altruism. In fact, I'm fairly sure it is not, just as power and wisdom do not have to be.

That actually seems to be the implication, since that's why the king hides the Triforce of Courage.

Sure. It's supposed to serve him for his entire life.

No, I mean across multiple lifespans.

I know there are examples where people have committed evil to gain wisdom/courage, but there are no comparative examples in which the act of obtaining wisdom/courage leads to evil as a consequence.

Ganon is evil in his quest for power, and even obtaining it does not end his evil.

The same would be true of those seeking wisdom or courage.

[Jumbie]

That's not entirely correct: OoT speaks only of two chosen ones. Though Ganondorf does have the crest, he's not actually said to be chosen or most worthy of the ToP. On the other hand, he is definitely indirectly chosen - as Sparx said, he has been given the opportunity to prove himself worthy of the Triforce. Still, OoT makes a distinction here and although I don?t think it means anything (in relation to TP) we should recognize that.

He's indirectly chosen, exactly. Because that difference doesn't mean anything, I didn't specify it.

As I pointed out in another topic, being "chosen by the goddesses" simply means "being singled out as important by the goddesses". Ganondorf was not chosen in OoT, because he was not singled out to wield power; he took that power himself. Link and Zelda, on the other hand, were singled out to wield the Triforce of Courage and Wisdom respectively, which makes them "chosen".

Although Ganondorf acquired the ToP by his own actions, we see that he actually has the crest, so the ToP chose to dwell in him. TWW showed that this should not be taken for granted - a Triforce only dwells within a person after they were approved by the Gods (in other words: chosen).

Of course, Ganondorf believed himself to be chosen in TP, and I can't help but think of that as validation of the point that Ganondorf was singled out to wield power.

He was chosen, proven by the Triforce of Power coming to him in his hour of need. I've accepted the divine prank to be true by now (because the game makes it clear that Ganondorf did not acquire the Triforce with his own hands), while I do maintain the belief that the three Triforces would never have been distributed to the three chosen ones in TP if it hadn't been for young OoT Link bringing his crest from the future.

OOT Ganondorf was not a chosen one, he had the Power Triforce because he had took it. Zelda was no chosen or singled out to receive the Wisdom Triforce because of her wisdom attributes, she received the piece because she was the princess of destiny. Link did not obtain the Courage Triforce because he was courageous, it was because he was the hero destined to appear. It all has to do with destiny in OOT, not that any of these people were worthy of receiving a Triforce.

Absolutely ridiculous, the way you're lying straight in the game's face...!

No matter how much you think I am over-interpreting ALTTP, it clearly states someone must be worthy to receive those powers.

Yes, and that's all it says. It never says Ganon was worthy to recieve *all three* of them, it just says Ganon got Triforce. Because the splitting rule was not yet established back then. Nowadays it is, however, so ALttP needs to conform to it.

Sparx, I understand that the powers I describe are said to be the Triforce itself, yet my point is that we know Ganondorf was not worthy to receive those powers, yet he still obtains a piece and he still gets some amount of power, but how can it be the power that only a worthy person is able to receive?

Because Ganondorf is shown to be chosen by his bearing the crest. If you're not chosen, you can hold a Triforce in your hand but it won't dwell in you (exactly like LoZ Link with the Triforce of Wisdom, and like TWW Link with the Triforce of Courage before the moment when the Gods chose Link).

Right, but if someone has the "Triforce," that doesn't necessarily have to mean that they have even multiple Triforces, since in the overwhelming majority of examples they don't.

Exactly right. Especially since Japanese doesn't use an article with the noun. It literally just says "You have Triforce", very much as in "You have great force". Power is in Japan the same word as force and strength, so it's evident that those powers the Triforce is said to convey in ALttP's manual are the Triforces themselves.

Triforce = pieces = titles = powers = crests. It's all one and the same force, called "the power of the gods".
The only thing is that you can't have a Triforce both as a crest and as a physical piece at the same time, but no one has contested that.

As for villains and thier motives, I think the reason most evil people would desire power over the other virtues is that with power, you don't need courage or wisdom. You can still beat the shit out of everyone that opposes you. However, the reverse is not true. Courage without power and wisdom only makes you a fool.

Oh Link, you fool! But indeed, Ganondorf voices that same idea in TWW.

Wisdom alone does not enable you to rule the world, and is therefore less desirable than power (unless knowledge is what you desire).

So Power is the only one of the three virtues with which you can rule the world? Like, evil ones can still desire one of the other virtues, but if they want to conquer the world, they must prefer Power? Makes sense.
And since a villain who doesn't try to conquer the land will stand no chance against the current ruler, villains who don't prefer Power over the rest will likely not appear in Zelda. I might be wrong though.

[Raien]

Ganon is evil in his quest for power, and even obtaining it does not end his evil.

Except that Ganondorf never attained power over the world, so his quest for power has never been shown to end and cannot be shown to end without giving Ganon an absolute victory over Light.

[LionHarted]

Absolutely ridiculous, the way you're lying straight in the game's face...!

Strictly speaking, I'm pretty sure the game never actually says Zelda or Link received them because of their qualities.

[Raien]

If that one seeks the True Force, that one should recover the two lost forces.
Those two forces… will reside on the backs of the hands of those newly chosen by the gods.

[CID Farwin]

EDIT:Wah! there's a page I missed! I'll keep my reply here, though.

Long ago, when Hyrule was still one country, a great King was said to have used the Triforce to maintain order in Hyrule.

There is one example of a person who gained the True Force to govern all which is the ancient King of Hyrule in AOL. I would bet that this person was granted the three powers that would govern all addition to the "power of the gods". Ganon in ALTTP had obtained the entire Triforce as well, and therefore was worthy of the True Force. He was evil, and as Raian has proven, the world would fall into chaos, against the goddesses wishes. Since they had known that an evil person could possibly find the Triforce they took necessary measures to prevent that person from completing his discovery.

Since Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf were assigned the crests in OoT, they are the three most worthy people to have the respective Triforces' powers. It's as simple as that. F-A-C-T.

OOT Ganondorf was not a chosen one, he had the Power Triforce because he had took it. Zelda was not chosen or singled out to receive the Wisdom Triforce because of her wisdom attributes, she received the piece because she was the princess of destiny. Link did not obtain the Courage Triforce because he was courageous, it was because he was the hero destined to appear. It all has to do with destiny in OOT, not that any of these people were worthy of receiving a Triforce. This is what I was trying to convey with the quotes, but I really should have just gotten to the point.

I assume you say that because of this:

Those two parts will be held
within others chosen by destiny,
who will bear the Triforce mark
on the backs of their hands.

because you're obviously reading too much into this "destiny" aspect.

If Link and Zelda only have it because of "destiny" then Ganondorf does, too, and is a chosen one. He was destined to invade the Sacred Realm and take the Triforce.

You know what this "destiny" is that seems so involved and responsible? One name for it is called storytelling.

No matter how much you think I am over-interpreting ALTTP, it clearly states someone must be worthy to receive those powers.

Why do you continually complicate thing beyond reason? What is this 'power' you're talking about? because ALttP is talking about three parts of the Triforce

Edited by CID Farwin, 03 June 2008 - 09:43 PM.

[Raien]

CID Farwin, Jumbie's Japanese translation of OoT doesn't say "chosen by destiny"; it says "newly chosen by the gods". I included the quotation in my previous post.

Edited by Raian, 03 June 2008 - 09:59 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

No, I mean across multiple lifespans.

The Triforce serves you during your current lifespan.

[NM87]

Apologies. I never meant to quote anyone; I just saw the phrase and your name in the same screen. XD

No problem, I figured as much.

In the IW, Ganon used the power of the "Triforce" to attack Hyrule, but we know from OoT's telling of the IW that he only possessed the Triforce of Power.

I agree with the other points you bulleted, but I disagree here. I would agree, but the fact hat the entire Triforce was in the back room in ALTTP makes me inclined to say no here. Its true that OOT seems to elaborate on what might have happened in ALTTP, but then you would have to ret-con what ALTTP actually implies, or ret-con what OOT actually implies. Hence, the dilemma.

Sparx, I understand that the powers I describe are said to be the Triforce itself, yet my point is that we know Ganondorf was not worthy to receive those powers, yet he still obtains a piece and he still gets some amount of power, but how can it be the power that only a worthy person is able to receive?

Does it say that only a worthy person can receive it, or that the Triforce will always wait for someone worthy to receive it?

Yes, it does say that only someone worthy can receive it and literally it says someone appropriate. Its kind of both of what you said, the Triforce is always waiting, even though it can be accosted from time to time, but it will always wait for new worthy owners and I suppose in the meantime if someone unworthy gets it will split as shown in OOT and not grant anyone the True Force, which seems to be a separate power. That is what I am getting at.

[NM87]

Yes, the King in AoL did probably have the True Force to govern all, but that quote says nothing about additional "power".

So I am not wrong to claim the True Force to govern all is separate from other powers granted by the Triforce.

There is nothing that says the goddesses just gave Ganon "power" as a consolation prize. It would be odd to have Ganon take the triforce, become the evil king, then have the triforce hidden away in a room where he can easily still get it and NOT be its owner yet still have some "other power" (seemingly on par with the triforce itself? Why not just give it to him then and stop beating around the bush? If he only just had some sort of power, then it is THAT that caused the Seal War and sounds like a stupid [pointless] action of the gods).

Even though Ganon did have the whole Triforce, and not two pages ago was the ALTTP manual stating that whoever obtains the Triforce would have whatever they desired granted? No one knows what Ganon?s desire was, and it perhaps could have been for power to rule the world. Ganon seemed to be hiding it from other owners because if the Triforce didn?t belong to him then other people could have their desires granted, which is why he was holding it captive, not because he drew power from it.

These chosen ones must have, at the very least, have that attribute held higher in their heart than the other two and it appears that Zelda holds wisdom (choice, "good" judgment [hiding as a Sheikah, helping the hero of time, not revealing identity?]

Although those examples are from the future when the Triforce had already been split seven years ago, when Zelda was still unwise.

In a sense, Link did obtain t he triforce of courage due to his courage because at the very least, he has courage held higher than power and wisdom and because he holds courage higher than the other two, it is quite possible that this is the reason why the gods had him as a chosen one and therefore, the potential possessor of the triforce of courage. Basically, being destined to appear and getting a triforce piece is somewhat interrelated, but not causal of each other.

If we had learned anything from LOZ, then we know that if someone owns a Triforce you cannot challenge them without owning a piece yourself. Therefore, in OOT and WW, it isn?t so crazy that the goddesses choose the HERO to receive a piece to challenge Ganon. In ALTTP, Ganon had the Triforce, as an object it seems. He didn?t gain the True Force and wasn?t worthy of its power, so he was just owning the Triforce but not getting anything out of it. So ALTTP Link challenges him without a piece since he doesn?t need one.

Destiny did in fact play a big role, but one of the facets of destiny had little to do with being worthy to receive a triforce piece.

If the True Force is separate from ?the power of the gods? then the titles that go along with it are as well. As I said, Link and Zelda were chosen to have the piece, or more accurately, chosen to be hiding places for the other pieces because they were chosen by destiny as the princess and hero, who were all prophesized to appear if evil got to the Triforce.

The one I got from the LttP translation guide only says it is waiting for someone worthy. It is a declarative statement, not a conditional statement.

Um, yeah. If its waiting for someone worthy, then its waiting for someone worthy. It wouldn?t specifically say it waiting for someone worthy if a person didn?t need to be worthy. This pretty much implies that someone must be worthy to receive those powers?the True Force. I don?t know how you can not see this.

So when we see Ganondorf is not worthy to receive those powers, we (and the games) mean that he isn't worthy to receive the entire power in full, but the "ruling"/mechanics of the triforce was to bestow upon him ONLY one piece.

Again, those pieces are connected to the True Force and therefore cannot be granted separately. They can only be granted to someone in balance. The Triforce is also a symbol of the gods power containing their personal power. The True Force aspect is a separate concept.

I'm pretty sure I sounded VERY redundant so I'm sorry if you feel like I'm saying the same thing over and over again.

That?s because you want to reply to every sentence I wrote and even half sentences. Just reply to the bigger picture and everyone will be happy they don?t have to keep reading dialog responses.

[NM87]

Why do you continually complicate thing beyond reason? What is this 'power' you're talking about? because ALttP is talking about three parts of the Triforce

The power is the True Force which contains Conquer Power, Govern Wisdom and Temper Courage. Besides the gods personal power that is found within each Triforce (since the Triforce is three seperate Triforce), the Triforce as a whole contains these three other powers which make up the True Force.

Edited by NM87, 04 June 2008 - 01:57 AM.

[Sparx401]

So I am not wrong to claim the True Force to govern all is separate from other powers granted by the Triforce.

Eh? You do know that the "True force" isn't even invented until OoT right? It can't possibly be that the true force was some separate power (and it seems only TP vaguely implies this so you're working "backwards" on overtime and erroneously). The king had the true force because the true force was the ENTIRE triforce (which he had). If you just look at the story and not have any other "baggage", then it is clear that the True Force stated in OoT could be carried over to AoL's back story, and that this True Force is when one has all three pieces of the triforce. The deduction that the king has the true force is BECAUSE he had the entire triforce (concrete evidence) as opposed to saying that it's a separate power (coming out of nowhere?) Perhaps I need to make another run-down:

1) To get the entire triforce in full, you need to be worthy (that is, have your heart in balance).

1a) If you get the entire triforce, then you have the True Force to govern all (for good or for ill)

2) If you end up with one piece, that means you were not worthy (heart not balanced), but as a "consolation prize", you get ONE triforce piece (and that is the piece in which you most believe in).

2a) If you want the true force (that is, all three pieces together to have the FULL power of the gods), then you must acquire the other two pieces that were given to those chosen by the gods (them choosing may possibly reflect the attribute that the piece is and not an arbitrary pick).

3) The triforce as a whole, as stated earlier, is the True Force to govern all.

4) The triforce in part (two pieces or less) grants the wielder power, but not on the scale that the FULL triforce gives.

Even though Ganon did have the whole Triforce, and not two pages ago was the ALTTP manual stating that whoever obtains the Triforce would have whatever they desired granted?

You're missing the point though...Yes, Ganon does have the triforce, but that's not the admonishment. The admonishment is the ENTIRE line of logic by way of the events that would be odd if they were to play out. Such events did happen, but once you throw in "additional power not by way of the triforce" then it becomes an illogical set of events.

Ganon seemed to be hiding it from other owners because if the Triforce didn?t belong to him then other people could have their desires granted, which is why he was holding it captive, not because he drew power from it.

Whoa whoa WHOA! *blows whistle* We can't just go from a "possible" proposition and transition to "probable" proposition and move on to "it had to have been the case" and then use that as evidence to your theory! Such is unwarranted on any epistemic or logical level! Ganon had to have the entire triforce even though it was not on his person. It doesn't necessarily have to reside inside of him and we know from WW that once all three pieces are together, they no longer reside in anyone (and the same could be true if he had it in full [I must reiterate that the "split" thing wasn't "there" in LttP!!]) If the triforce didn't belong to him, then how is it that he had his wish fulfilled once he touched it (and that he laughed evilly with the text not even indicating anything that said that an additional power was given to him instead)?

Also, the triforce tells Link that it is awaiting a new owner, but this text would be out of place if it meant that it was just waiting in general (we already knew it was waiting). The implication is that with its old owner gone, the triforce is waiting for someone else to be its master/wielder (which seems to "make us" look at Link and say, "Well, get on it boy!")

Also, the Cataclysm prophecy says that when someone evil uses/gets the triforce, then a hero will appear. This would be seriously out of place if Ganon didn't have the triforce (only having it for a fraction of a second and then just have some other power doesn't count).

Although those examples are from the future when the Triforce had already been split seven years ago, when Zelda was still unwise.

It doesn't really matter since the pieces don't necessarily go to those that have such attributes "at an all time high". Her being unwise at the time seems pale in comparison to her apparent urge for justice and knowledge (and to right wrongs). She knows that Link slept and knows that she made a huge mistake, but that mistake isn't any ground for the gods to say, "nope, no piece for you!" She believes in wisdom the most and a good example of such high belief is not her mistake, but her yearning in her heart (not mind, body, or event) to right wrongs, garner Link with her acquired knowledge and such. As I've stated earlier, we have the philosophical definition of "wisdom" as applicable judgment/choice-making given the circumstances. Her choice to at least try and rectify her mistakes makes her wise in a sense (because everyone has their lapse and sometimes we don't know our own selves until we screw up and make choices in the bottom of the mud pit).

Although, Zelda may also have displayed wisdom prior to her one mistake due to her plan to stop Ganondorf in the first place and hiding the Ocarina of Time (good judgment in light of the circumstances at this point and to her own [best] knowledge).

Therefore, in OOT and WW, it isn?t so crazy that the goddesses choose the HERO to receive a piece to challenge Ganon.

You misrepresent me. I didn't say that it was only based on his attributes, but it should overlap at some point (of course, why give courage to someone who doesn't hold it high in their heart? Better choose the destined hero!)

In ALTTP, Ganon had the Triforce, as an object it seems. He didn?t gain the True Force and wasn?t worthy of its power, so he was just owning the Triforce but not getting anything out of it.

Remember, at the time, the True Force thing didn't exist and neither did the entire mechanics I listed earlier: It was ONLY, "you get the entire triforce if you touch it" during LttP's development and release so saying "he didn't gain the true force" is an irrelevant proposition since the concept of "true force" didn't appear until several years later. And of course, owning the triforce but not getting anything out of it is out of place considering he amasses a dark army, transforms the Sacred Realm to match his heart and intends to break the sages' seal. It is the seal that is preventing his wish from coming to fruition, not his "unworthiness". LttP was very straightforward about the process of the triforce: Ganon got it, he had his desires granted, the sages seal up the source of evil (which is the Dark World) and Ganon is stuck. Since the sages put the seal on the Dark World AFTER Ganon made his wish, the triforce probably didn't "account" for it (i.e. - didn't break the seal) and thus he rules part of the world, but not the "whole" world as he wanted to (it probably wasn't due to the triforce NOT doing what it was supposed to be doing).

So ALTTP Link challenges him without a piece since he doesn?t need one.

LttP Link doesn't need a piece NOT because Ganon didn't have any of it (which he more than likely did as I elaborated above) but because he has the Master Sword. The sages were searching for a hero and the Master Sword to presumably stop the evil, but they didn't look/hope for a triforce piece as well. The Master Sword was forged with the power to repel all kinds of evil (including that of triforce magic) so having a piece really isn't necessary having the sword and the requisites in wielding said sword is though.

If the True Force is separate from ?the power of the gods? then the titles that go along with it are as well.

No, the True Force is the same as the triforce. Now, the title "the power of the gods" is ascribed to the triforce the majority of the time, but we do have instances where such a description doesn't relate to the triforce (and that is because the description is broad...we honestly can't assume that the power of the gods only relates to the triforce but we can say that it is used for the triforce since the series revolves around it more so than the general reference). We have to look at context, this isn't an "either-or" situation. In the case of the Wind Waker, the reference is NOT to the triforce, but that doesn't warrant us in concluding that the description can't be shared. General-specific semantics is what we use everyday anyway. If I say a sentence using the word "fruit" with no precedent specifications as to which fruit I am referring to (i.e. - I like fruit!), then we assume that I am saying "fruit" in general. If I said something like, "Apples are crispy. Such fruit makes my taste buds go wild," then the precedence is not "any kind of fruit", but rather, crispy fruit (apples included of course).

So IN A SENSE, you are partially right, the True Force is separate from the "power of the gods" BUT ONLY IN THE CASE THAT the "power of the gods" does NOT refer to the FULL TRIFORCE. If the "power of the gods" refers to the full triforce, then such a description can't be separated with "True Force". In essence:

1) "True Force" is ONLY applicable to having all three triforce pieces.

2) "Power of the gods" can refer to either a triforce piece, a full triforce, or just the power of the gods in general (the latter is hardly used though and we can infer by context)

3) So yes, "True Force" is a reference to "Power of the gods" only if "power of the gods" is a reference to a FULL TRIFORCE!

As I said, Link and Zelda were chosen to have the piece, or more accurately, chosen to be hiding places for the other pieces because they were chosen by destiny as the princess and hero, who were all prophesized [sic] to appear if evil got to the Triforce.

Someone posted Jumbie's translation (and someone else corrected him): That is, the Japanese version says "newly chosen by the gods" and NOT destiny.

It wouldn?t specifically say it waiting for someone worthy if a person didn?t need to be worthy.

All it says is that it is waiting for someone worthy, but we can't go forward and change it and conclude that it must be that ONLY a worthy person can touch it. Of course, during LttP's time, whether someone was "worthy" or not is a non-issue since compulsory splitting didn't occur at the time. In any case, what you "hope for" (or in this case, "wait for") is not necessarily what you get ("who you get").

Actually, another point came to mind: Worth means two different things in LttP and OoT. LttP's "worth" system only means someone, in general, who is worthy (which is obvious but there aren't any specifics as to what makes a person worthy). When OoT rolled around, "worth" became specific to a balanced heart (and we can't fit in notions backwards because it wouldn't bear out). So putting OoT's concept of "worth" back into the (archaic?) "worth" system of LttP is equivocation, a logical fallacy. The same goes with True Force; going "backwards" and putting it back into LttP is fallacious because LttP never had it implemented at all, and OoT doesn't change that (unless they change it in a remake...but even THAT didn't happen).

Again, those pieces are connected to the True Force and therefore cannot be granted separately.

The true force only is obtained when you have ALL THREE pieces together. You don't get "part" of the true force if you have one piece because then, it wouldn't be true (that is, "actual") at all.

They can only be granted to someone in balance.

LttP didn't implement this concept I told you so that ruling doesn't exist in that game!

The Triforce is also a symbol of the gods power containing their personal power. The True Force aspect is a separate concept.

Let's see what the game says about it (its the English version, so if there is a Japanese literal translation, someone please post it!):

The Triforce...the sacred triangle...it is a balance that weighs the three forces: Power, Wisdom and Courage. If the heart of the one who holds the sacred triangle has all three forces in balance, that one will gain the True Force to govern all.
But, if that one's heart is not in balance, the Triforce will separate into three parts:
Power, Wisdom and Courage. Only one part will remain for the one who touched the Triforce...the part representing the force that one most believes in. If that one seeks the True Force, that one must acquire the two lost parts.

Now, you may at first say this augments your stance, considering that, at the surface level, it seems to say that you need to have the entire triforce before having the True Force, but let's not jump the gun yet. Similar wording like this is used all the time and it still means that getting the full triforce is as acquiring the True Force (it IS the true force). I could say, "If you pay your dues, be nice to everyone, and think through things critically, you'll be a courteous asset to the community" but that does not mean that being a courteous asset is different than paying your dues, being nice, etc.

My analogy reduces down to, "If you do this, then you will become what you did" whereas Sheik's statement boils down to, "If you have these, you will have what it amounts to [its summation]"

Also, the true force is said such that if you have it, you will be able to govern. The king in AoL had the full triforce, and knowing that none of what Sheik said really applies "backwards" (but for the sake of argumentation...and I guess playing the devil's advocate), the king had the "true force" since he is said to have used it to rule Hyrule (so it seems the entire triforce using to rule was already an idea in play, but the "true force" part [not concept!] wasn't tailored yet).

Besides the gods personal power that is found within each Triforce (since the Triforce is three seperate Triforce), the Triforce as a whole contains these three other powers which make up the True Force.

The gods' power is the same as the true force (that is, when the triforce is in its original and unfettered state). Of course, the gods' power is still within each individual piece, but the summation of all the embodiments of their power (when all of it comes together again), that is deemed the true force; it is the same as the power of the gods, but just the total of it when the triforce is put together again.

I'll post something tomorrow that is relatively short and conclusive outlined in bullet format.

[LionHarted]

I agree with the other points you bulleted, but I disagree here. I would agree, but the fact hat the entire Triforce was in the back room in ALTTP makes me inclined to say no here.

The back room of ALttP doesn't have to have anything to do with the IW, especially if the IW is OoT and TWW comes after it.

As things stand, the scenario of ALttP has to be contributed to by more than OoT, regardless of whether or not OoT is the IW.

Yes, it does say that only someone worthy can receive it and literally it says someone appropriate.

Quote?

[NM87]

Remember, at the time, the True Force thing didn't exist and neither did the entire mechanics I listed earlier: It was ONLY, "you get the entire triforce if you touch it" during LttP's development and release so saying "he didn't gain the true force" is an irrelevant proposition since the concept of "true force" didn't appear until several years later.

Actually, it was, but it didn?t have the name ?True Force?. It was generally accepted that the Triforce had the power to govern all and would only give that power to an appropriate person. Appropriate meaning, good and balanced, since ALTTP also states the Triforce cannot judge between them, but the gods can.

So IN A SENSE, you are partially right, the True Force is separate from the "power of the gods" BUT ONLY IN THE CASE THAT the "power of the gods" does NOT refer to the FULL TRIFORCE. If the "power of the gods" refers to the full triforce, then such a description can't be separated with "True Force". In essence:

1) "True Force" is ONLY applicable to having all three triforce pieces.

2) "Power of the gods" can refer to either a triforce piece, a full triforce, or just the power of the gods in general (the latter is hardly used though and we can infer by context)

3) So yes, "True Force" is a reference to "Power of the gods" only if "power of the gods" is a reference to a FULL TRIFORCE!

Now, I already told you that the Triforce is three separate Triforce together, which was the original intention of the games. Having a full Triforce can mean you have one Triforce, since we know even that can be split down even more.

What I am getting is this: The True Force is a power that one receives from the Triforce (or gods?) when obtaining all three ?Triforce? when one is good and balanced, which would constitute and appropriate person to govern the land.

About being chosen by destiny, the quote doesn?t invalidate my point. Link and Zelda are chosen by destiny to be the hero and princess, but when the Triforce splits, they could be ?newly chosen? to have those Triforce. The reason they are newly chosen could be because they exhibit a greater capacity for wisdom and courage, but its mainly due to the fact they were chosen ones before this by destiny. As Raian keeps trying to tell us, the goddesses determine destiny/fate so they were chosen by the gods previous to the events of OOT, but the ?evil? which is predicted ?could possibly? lay hands on the Triforce is not. The legend merely says one of evil could obtain the Triforce and that there will be chosen ones to combat him.

Your posts are massively amazing, and I agree with everything. I don?t think I am wrong about what I am saying, or maybe I am just not good at this.

[NM87]

The back room of ALttP doesn't have to have anything to do with the IW, especially if the IW is OoT and TWW comes after it.

As things stand, the scenario of ALttP has to be contributed to by more than OoT, regardless of whether or not OoT is the IW.

Yes, the back room of ALTTP has everything to do with the IW since Ganon never escaped the SR according to ALTTP (at the time it was intended intentions of intended developer intentional intentions intention). If Ganon never got out to ?look? for the missing Triforce if supposedly he wasn?t in balance then he could not find them to make the complete Triforce to put in the back room. So the Triforce being there means he got the whole thing.

The quote:

Until the appearance of an appropriate person who would take over this force, it was located in a holy place somewhere in the world, shining continuously.

It would shine in the Sacred Realm, somewhere in the world, until one who was worthy of inheriting those powers appeared.

These quotes seem to imply that someone appropriate or worthy should get the Triforce, and OOT seems to inform us that being appropriate and worthy means being in balance (whether or not they reference the same event, it elaborates on the Triforce in general).

[CID Farwin]

What I am getting is this: The True Force is a power that one receives from the Triforce (or gods?) when obtaining all three “Triforce” when one is good and balanced, which would constitute and appropriate person to govern the land.

There is only one apparent difference between having one piece of the Triforce, and all three: The granting of wishes. This "True Force" is simply that.

About being chosen by destiny, the quote doesn’t invalidate my point. Link and Zelda are chosen by destiny to be the hero and princess, but when the Triforce splits, they could be “newly chosen” to have those Triforce. The reason they are newly chosen could be because they exhibit a greater capacity for wisdom and courage, but its mainly due to the fact they were chosen ones before this by destiny.¹ As Raian keeps trying to tell us, the goddesses determine destiny/fate² so they were chosen by the gods previous to the events of OOT, but the “evil” which is predicted “could possibly” lay hands on the Triforce is not. The legend merely says one of evil could obtain the Triforce and that there will be chosen ones to combat him.

I've made my reply in such a way that you don't think I'm cutting up your argument, but there are specific things you said that I want to talk about.
1: Alright, so far so good. Al long as they were worthy because of their attributes being the ones who would come, and not that they just randomly got it because they were destined to.
2: And where does this come from, pray tell? If the Goddesses were described as the writers of destiny, then I could agree with this, but they're not. There seems to be some other factor at play, as the only times the Goddesses themselves were said to be involved in Hyrule are 1)its creation, 2)the flood 3)the sealing of Ganon in OoT 4)the sealing of the Twili's ancestors in TP. The gods who are the writers of destiny in the Zeldaverse are the supreme creator gods, the developers.

I don’t think I am wrong about what I am saying, or maybe I am just not good at this.

Either you're constantly changing your argument, or just having a hard time getting it across on some fronts.

Yes, the back room of ALTTP has everything to do with the IW since Ganon never escaped the SR according to ALTTP (at the time it was intended intentions of intended developer intentional intentions intention). If Ganon never got out to “look” for the missing Triforce if supposedly he wasn’t in balance then he could not find them to make the complete Triforce to put in the back room. So the Triforce being there means he got the whole thing.

You can go on about developers' intentions of ALttP all you want, but it doesn't change the developers' intentions of OoT: to expand on the IW. It's like what Jumbie's saying, he could have just power. The back room can be easily retroactively explained, as the Triforce isn't exactly in the back room, it assembles in the back room. If Link and Zelda (who are both present) had their respective pieces, and Ganon is dead, then it still works, just not the way it originally did.

These quotes seem to imply that someone appropriate or worthy should get the Triforce, and OOT seems to inform us that being appropriate and worthy means being in balance (whether or not they reference the same event, it elaborates on the Triforce in general).

Um, yeah, isn't that what they're saying? that "Worthiness" and such are due to having a balanced heart? Why's there an argument on this, then?

Edited by CID Farwin, 04 June 2008 - 01:24 PM.

[LionHarted]

Yes, the back room of ALTTP has everything to do with the IW since Ganon never escaped the SR according to ALTTP (at the time it was intended intentions of intended developer intentional intentions intention).

When Ganon most recently entered he didn't escape, obviously.

But if the IW wasn't Ganon's most recent entry (which, if OoT is the IW, it can't be) then the IW has nothing to do with it.

If Ganon never got out to ?look? for the missing Triforce if supposedly he wasn?t in balance then he could not find them to make the complete Triforce to put in the back room. So the Triforce being there means he got the whole thing.

Or the events of TWW had the Triforce become whole again.

Until the appearance of an appropriate person who would take over this force, it was located in a holy place somewhere in the world, shining continuously.

It would shine in the Sacred Realm, somewhere in the world, until one who was worthy of inheriting those powers appeared.

These quotes seem to imply that someone appropriate or worthy should get the Triforce, and OOT seems to inform us that being appropriate and worthy means being in balance (whether or not they reference the same event, it elaborates on the Triforce in general).

The quote seems to tell us where it was placed and why, but obviously it can be taken from there by someone who is not worthy, just not in full. The other parts will find the chosen ones.

Edited by LionHarted, 04 June 2008 - 04:37 PM.

[Jumbie]

So I am not wrong to claim the True Force to govern all is separate from other powers granted by the Triforce.

Of course you're not wrong with that. There's the True Force and there's the three Triforces. The three titles refer to each of the three pieces respectively, not to the True Force.

If the True Force is separate from “the power of the gods” then the titles that go along with it are as well.

That is where you're mistaken. The True Force is to get a wish granted. But the three titles/powers are nothing but the three Triforces.

In ALTTP, Ganon had the Triforce, as an object it seems. He didn’t gain the True Force and wasn’t worthy of its power, so he was just owning the Triforce but not getting anything out of it. So ALTTP Link challenges him without a piece since he doesn’t need one.

An interesting theory, but consider that we have no reason to suppose the complete Triforce is able to dwell within someone. From what we've seen, the crests can only appear as long as the Triforce is split.

Again, those pieces are connected to the True Force and therefore cannot be granted separately. They can only be granted to someone in balance. The Triforce is also a symbol of the gods power containing their personal power. The True Force aspect is a separate concept.

The power is the True Force which contains Conquer Power, Govern Wisdom and Temper Courage. Besides the gods personal power that is found within each Triforce (since the Triforce is three seperate Triforce), the Triforce as a whole contains these three other powers which make up the True Force.

How many more times do you need to be told that this is precisely wrong? I can't add anything, it's simply that what you say isn't true...

Worth means two different things in LttP and OoT. LttP's "worth" system only means someone, in general, who is worthy (which is obvious but there aren't any specifics as to what makes a person worthy). When OoT rolled around, "worth" became specific to a balanced heart (and we can't fit in notions backwards because it wouldn't bear out). So putting OoT's concept of "worth" back into the (archaic?) "worth" system of LttP is equivocation, a logical fallacy. The same goes with True Force; going "backwards" and putting it back into LttP is fallacious because LttP never had it implemented at all, and OoT doesn't change that (unless they change it in a remake...but even THAT didn't happen).

Even though ALttP couldn't have known of OoT's Triforce splitting rule, that earlier game now cannot conflict with what the later game added, because ignorance of the law is no excuse. The timeline can't become consistent if we say the split rule doesn't apply in ALttP.
So what would you suggest to solve this plothole?

It cannot be that Ganondorf had a balanced heart. Link, too, touched the Triforce without it splitting, meaning that his heart would've been balanced as well. And if Link's and Ganon's hearts were balanced, wouldn't it make sense for Zelda's heart to be, too? We'd have the three protagonists with balanced hearts, what a coincidence. While we're at it, why not just say all Hyrulians have balanced hearts? Or in other words, that there is no Triforce split rule? We cannot say that, because OoT contradicts it. That leads to the realisation that what ALttP implies in regards to claiming the Triforce cannot be literally true.

Edited by Jumbie, 04 June 2008 - 05:18 PM.

[Raien]

Quick question: Does "true force" absolutely have to be a title? Why can't it be a description, like "power of the gods"?

As I see it, "true force" simply distinguishes the full power of the Triforce from the individual powers of the Triforce pieces (i.e. the combined Triforce is more than the sum of its' parts). And considering that the word "Triforce" is used to refer to the individual pieces as well as the combined Triforce, another word is needed to make that distinction, and "true force" sounds right in that context.

I honestly don't see how it justifies the massive theory of separate powers that NM87 as devised.

Edited by Raian, 04 June 2008 - 06:39 PM.

[Jumbie]

Quick question: Does "true force" absolutely have to be a title? Why can't it be a description, like "power of the gods"?

As I see it, "true force" simply distinguishes the full power of the Triforce from the individual powers of the Triforce pieces (i.e. the combined Triforce is more than the sum of its' parts). And considering that the word "Triforce" is used to refer to the individual pieces as well as the combined Triforce, another word is needed to make that distinction, and "true force" sounds right in that context.

You're right, it doesn't have to be a title. In Japanese OoT it's a normal word, without quotation marks or katakana, and caps they don't have. In comparison, the Triforces of Power, Courage, and Wisdom are in quotation marks in ALttP's Japanese manual.

[NM87]

There is only one apparent difference between having one piece of the Triforce, and all three: The granting of wishes. This "True Force" is simply that.

I don?t know?the True Force is said to be the power that one uses to govern all, which is what ALTTP was describing in the passage I provided.

And where does this come from, pray tell? If the Goddesses were described as the writers of destiny, then I could agree with this, but they're not.

The goddesses have the ability to choose people, much like they had chosen the Hylian people. Many of the chosen ones are chosen by the gods and then described as being chosen by destiny. ?That is the destiny the goddesses have placed upon the King of Red Lions.? Many things tied to the gods choose things, such as the Master Sword, who seemingly chooses who its wielder will be. Basically, I think the goddesses do have something to do with destiny.

The back room can be easily retroactively explained, as the Triforce isn't exactly in the back room, it assembles in the back room.

No, no. Ganon had the Triforce right then and there. It doesn?t assemble in the back room. If Ganon only had one Triforce, Link would have only won that Triforce. When Link defeated Ganon in LOZ, he obtained his Triforce. When you defeat another who holds a Triforce you get that Triforce. So if Link defeated Ganon in ALTTP, and Ganon only had the Triforce of Power, the Link only gets that Triforce. Why should the other two Triforce assemble there? To obtain the True Force after the Trifore has been split one must collect the other pieces, they don?t just come around. And Link and Zelda are never said to have the other pieces.

Um, yeah, isn't that what they're saying? that "Worthiness" and such are due to having a balanced heart? Why's there an argument on this, then?

Ganon receives the whole Triforce in ALTTP. He is in balance according to OOT if he gets the whole thing. He is evil. Therefore, not appropriate. I know you are going to bring up original intentions of OOT IW but?no.

Or the events of TWW had the Triforce become whole again.

I knew you were trying to lure me into this argument.

As I see it, "true force" simply distinguishes the full power of the Triforce from the individual powers of the Triforce pieces (i.e. the combined Triforce is more than the sum of its' parts). And considering that the word "Triforce" is used to refer to the individual pieces as well as the combined Triforce, another word is needed to make that distinction, and "true force" sounds right in that context.

True Force is specifically the power to govern all, as described in ALTTP and made clear in OOT. The Triforce itself also grants the desires of its beholder. ALTTP states that Ganon got his desires granted (?we do not know what Ganon wished from the Triforce? coupled with the fact no other chosen ones appeared to fight him or receive Triforce), therefore he had the whole Triforce. He wasn?t appropriate because he was evil. OOT Ganondorf wasn?t in balance, so the Triforce splits on him, leaving him with a Triforce of Power, which he draws the gods personal power from (?he could not control the power of the gods?). The three titles granted by the True Force to the one that obtains it are separate from the powers we see being used in games such as OOT and WW.

This is what the games are saying, I don?t know how you would argue with this.

Edited by NM87, 04 June 2008 - 10:36 PM.

[CID Farwin]

I don’t know…the True Force is said to be the power that one uses to govern all, which is what ALTTP was describing in the passage I provided.

So maybe it's not the wishing power exactly, maybe it's just the entire Triforce?

And where does this come from, pray tell? If the Goddesses were described as the writers of destiny, then I could agree with this, but they're not.

The goddesses have the ability to choose people, much like they had chosen the Hylian people. Many of the chosen ones are chosen by the gods and then described as being chosen by destiny. “That is the destiny the goddesses have placed upon the King of Red Lions.” Many things tied to the gods choose things, such as the Master Sword, who seemingly chooses who its wielder will be. Basically, I think the goddesses do have something to do with destiny.

You seem to think that every time the word "God" comes up it's referring to Din, Farore, and Nayru. That's not the case. Destiny and all comes from "The Gods." That's not the three Creator Goddesses, that's the Kami; which when used like this refers to your general, unspecified, everyday, run-of-the-mill gods. Western ideas of God don't really apply here; this is Shinto country.

No, no. Ganon had the Triforce right then and there. It doesn’t assemble in the back room.

...Yes it does.

see?

If Ganon only had one Triforce, Link would have only won that Triforce. When Link defeated Ganon in LOZ, he obtained his Triforce. When you defeat another who holds a Triforce you get that Triforce. So if Link defeated Ganon in ALTTP, and Ganon only had the Triforce of Power, the Link only gets that Triforce. Why should the other two Triforce assemble there? To obtain the True Force after the Trifore has been split one must collect the other pieces, they don’t just come around. And Link and Zelda are never said to have the other pieces.

If Ganon only had one Triforce, then the other two would reside in Link and Zelda. Link would get the Triforce of Power, he would already have the Triforce of Courage, and Zelda (who's trapped in the pocket size crystal in Link's pocket) would have the Triforce of Wisdom. All three pieces are present, so why wouldn't it assemble? I know you're going to bring up ALttP original intentions but...no.

And ALttP wouldn't say anything about it because the concept wasn't thought of yet.

Um, yeah, isn't that what they're saying? that "Worthiness" and such are due to having a balanced heart? Why's there an argument on this, then?

Ganon receives the whole Triforce in ALTTP. He is in balance according to OOT if he gets the whole thing. He is evil. Therefore, not appropriate. I know you are going to bring up original intentions of OOT IW but…no.

You're darn right I'm bring up the fact that OoT is the IW.

Ganon wasn't balanced, seen by his pig form. The Ganon we're shown in ALttP is the same one in every other game, the (whether metaphorically or literally) greedy pig. Why should this Ganon now be balanced? There's not even verifiable proof outside of original developer intent that he did have the whole thing. If in OoT Ganondorf splits the Triforce, then the Triforce splits in ALttP backstory(OoT and ALttP backstory being one and the same.) Not that Ganon was balanced. When has he ever shown himself to have a balanced heart?

As I see it, "true force" simply distinguishes the full power of the Triforce from the individual powers of the Triforce pieces (i.e. the combined Triforce is more than the sum of its' parts). And considering that the word "Triforce" is used to refer to the individual pieces as well as the combined Triforce, another word is needed to make that distinction, and "true force" sounds right in that context.

The thing is, there is one difference between the whole Triforce and it's parts, the genie power to grant wishes. This would be different than the sum of the three pieces. The "true force" could be referring to either.

True Force is specifically the power to govern all, as described in ALTTP and made clear in OOT. The Triforce itself also grants the desires of its beholder. ALTTP states that Ganon got his desires granted (“we do not know what Ganon wished from the Triforce“ coupled with the fact no other chosen ones appeared to fight him or receive Triforce), therefore he had the whole Triforce. He wasn’t appropriate because he was evil. OOT Ganondorf wasn’t in balance, so the Triforce splits on him, leaving him with a Triforce of Power, which he draws the gods personal power from (“he could not control the power of the gods”). The three titles granted by the True Force to the one that obtains it are separate from the powers we see being used in games such as OOT and WW.

There's just too much here, so I'ma splitting it up.

True Force is specifically the power to govern all, as described in ALTTP and made clear in OOT.

Look at the words, "True force." it means the entire power of the Trirforce, which as described in ALttP and AoL backstory is the power to govern all(as well and grant wishes like some inanimate genie.)

The Triforce itself also grants the desires of its beholder. ALTTP states that Ganon got his desires granted (“we do not know what Ganon wished from the Triforce“ ), therefore he had the whole Triforce.

That's true, Ganon's wish was granted, but it could be argued (and is being argued, by me) that it was only granted in part. Besides, his wish to rule the world seems to go on just fine in OoT with only the one piece.

coupled with the fact no other chosen ones appeared to fight him or receive Triforce

No other chosen ones appeared? What the heck was ALttP, then?

He wasn’t appropriate because he was evil.

What is this?

OOT Ganondorf wasn’t in balance, so the Triforce splits on him, leaving him with a Triforce of Power,

Alright, this is good, but it's here:

which he draws the gods personal power from

that I disagree. You make it sound like he's literally siphoning power from Din, rather than just being granted extra power by the Triforce. (The quote you have afterwards seems to be you trying to say, again, that "Power of the Gods" literally means taking power from the Goddesses, when that's just not the case.

The three titles granted by the True Force to the one that obtains it are separate from the powers we see being used in games such as OOT and WW.

Here's the biggie. Taken out of the mouth of Jumbie: "pieces = titles = powers = crests." The three 'titles' granted by the full Triforce to the one that obtains it are the powers we see being used in OoT and WW (and TP, by the way.)

Edited by CID Farwin, 05 June 2008 - 12:43 AM.

[Raien]

True Force is specifically the power to govern all, as described in ALTTP and made clear in OOT. The Triforce itself also grants the desires of its beholder. ALTTP states that Ganon got his desires granted (“we do not know what Ganon wished from the Triforce“ coupled with the fact no other chosen ones appeared to fight him or receive Triforce), therefore he had the whole Triforce. He wasn’t appropriate because he was evil. OOT Ganondorf wasn’t in balance, so the Triforce splits on him, leaving him with a Triforce of Power, which he draws the gods personal power from (“he could not control the power of the gods”). The three titles granted by the True Force to the one that obtains it are separate from the powers we see being used in games such as OOT and WW.

This is what the games are saying, I don’t know how you would argue with this.

Yep, you've fallen into the theorising trap of taking a couple of words from unrelated sentences and combining them in a specific way to make some special logic that can't be seen otherwise.

If the three Triforce pieces govern power, wisdom and courage, then the power to govern all would be the combined Triforce. Within the context of that quotation, there's nothing to support the existence of the "true force" as something separate from the Triforce. In fact, there's nothing to support the idea that "true force" is even a title; it could be called "force you only get when the Triforce is combined" to create the same meaning.

As for the line "he could not control of the power of the gods", I think you're wrong on that point too. Look at it from the context of any other fictional villain who was said to be controlled by the power they wielded. It simply means that Ganondorf has lost control of his mind and throwing his destructive might without caution. As Ganondorf's rage increases, he transforms into the beast, which represents his raw animalistic nature.

The thing is, there is one difference between the whole Triforce and it's parts, the genie power to grant wishes. This would be different than the sum of the three pieces. The "true force" could be referring to either.

Right, because as I said before, "The Triforce is more than the sum of its' parts", and the ability to grant the wish sounds pretty much like the true power of the Triforce that is not brought about with the Triforce pieces alone.

Edited by Raian, 05 June 2008 - 08:06 AM.