136 replies to this topic

[Jumbie]

Youngsters these days are
forgetting the Hylian
tongue. It's so sad...

In an effort to preserve our
beautiful ancient tongue,
I've made a language exam.

Oh, thanks for bringing this removed quote to our attention!

FSA is before ALttP, lawl.

No, it's simply one of those quotes from the stage of development when FSA was still supposed to be ALttP's prequel - like the other removed ones:

Where was it, though?
There are six other sages
hiding in this realm.
Surely they can aid you...

Forest of Sages ahead.

Hall of Sages

Everyone has successfully ignored it when I said it the first time... but the deletion of these quotes and the conversion of the sages into shrine maidens implies that FSA was going to be ALttP's prequel but not anymore when the game was released.


So, of course I had to check that Hylian quote in Japanese. And damn good that I did!

最近の　若者は　ハイラル語を　忘れつつあります。　なんとも　悲しいものです…。
Youngsters these days are forgetting the Hyrule language. It's so sad...
Youngsters these days are forgetting the Hylian tongue. It's so sad...

あの　すばらしい　ハイラル語を　もう一度　思い出してもらおうと　ハイラル後テストを　始めました！
To commemorate once more that splendid Hyrule language, I've started a Hyrule retro test!
In an effort to preserve our beautiful ancient tongue, I've made a language exam.

ハイラル is Hyrule. The word ハイリア (Hylia) doesn't appear anywhere in FSA except in the name of the first stage.

Obviously, he refers to an older form of Hyrulian, such as in AoL's manual and in TWW. We've always known that over the centuries, the Hyrulian language changes beyond the point of recognition. This fellow just happens to be interested in the older form.
And anyway, this minigame was going to use the symbols we can read on FSA's houses, so that makes it a gameplay element more than anything else (given that the kids can't all be on the road to illiteracy in FSA).

Edited by Jumbie, 22 May 2008 - 05:16 PM.

[Erimgard]

-MC is first because it references no other Zelda and has no mention of Ganon. This led me to conclude it is best to place first.

MC references the Oracles and Wind Waker, but I suppose you could write that off as cameo.

-After TP, Ganon/dorf does not die but comes back in time for the IW.

Do you believe that Ganondorf doesn't actually have the Triforce in TP? It has to be in the Sacred Realm for the IW to happen.
Also, note that aLttP GBA manual states the Triforce has been in the Sacred Realm since it's creation. If the Triforce is residing in Link, Ganon, and Zelda in TP, the IW cannot come after TP.

"Though you fulfilled the Hyrulian prophecy of the Legendary Hero and destroyed the evil tyrant Ganon, the land of Hyrule enjoyed only a precarious peace. "Who knows what threats may arise from Ganon's ashes?"

NoA fluff. Ganon is dead, but nothing is said about the Legendary Hero in the backstory. I agree in a aLttP-LA progression though.

King of Darkness… The man who took the Trident, the evil device (ja-ki) of the demon resurrected from ancient times!!

King of Darkness, ancient demon reborn. The wielder of the trident!!

Both of these quotes imply that the King of Darkness is being resurrected from ancient times. There is no way around this but to admit that Ganon himself is being resurrected through the FSA Ganondorf wielding the Trident. You simply cannot say that this is some other demon, because there is no proof of another demon throughout the Zelda timeline. If you want to argue and say that the Ganon/dorf from TP is being resurrected here, that will be incorrect as well. Ganon/dorf in TP never became the King of Darkness or King of Evil, and he is never mentioned as such throughout the entire game. Clearly FSA must occur after a game in which Ganon became the King of Darkness in order for him to be reborn. In case you want to tell me Ganon didn’t become the King of Darkness in ALTTP…

I interpret this to mean that the Trident in FSA was once wielded by a resurrected demon....OoX Ganon.

At the time Ganondorf touches the Triforce in ALTTP the King of Evil Ganon is born. If you place FSA before ALTTP, Ganon is resurrected in FSA (from what I don’t know) and then born for the first time again (?) in ALTTP as someone else.

Ganon was born during the Imprisoning War by that quote, not in aLttP itself. aLttP [especially the GBA verison] makes it clear that the Imprisoning War happened ages ago.

If we are all pretty clear on the fact that ALTTP Ganon is LOZ Ganon this would mean that Ganon was a demon in ALTTP, which means that FSA’s statement of an ancient demon being resurrected is true.

And the same could be said about FSA referencing OoX Ganon. LoZ Ganon is never shown in-game to have the Trident, though it's possible that's for graphical purposes. OoX Ganon is resurrected and has the Trident.

Many people believe that Ganondorf first acquires the Trident in FSA. I believe this is untrue. Who is to say that the Trident gives Ganon his power for the first time in FSA and who is to say that FSA is the first time Ganon has the Trident? My explanation is that we were duped into believing this. Ganon had the Trident during the IW for the first time, where he most likely came across it way back then. Some time before the IW, Ganon had fashioned himself the Trident to amplify or focus his powers, or he found it in that desert temple where it rested in FSA. In either case he got it during the IW or sometime before.

In the story of the IW, it's the Triforce, and not the Trident that made him the King of Evil.

Seek you the world? Seek you power?
If peace is boring, if that soul thirsts
If that soul cries for destruction and conquest
You are granted, in order to ruin the world, the power of darkness
Drown in desire and desire everything
Born from darkness, the demon's evil device, the trident
You are the King of Darkness

This seems to imply that Ganon’s minions wrote this on the Trident to entice prospective villains to pick up the Trident. It also clearly states there is a spirit already dwelling in the Trident, who is the King of Darkness. It also states that the Trident is born from darkness, which is how Ganon acquired it in ALTTP, he might have made it himself. It also states that the Trident is the demons evil device, implying it already has an owner.

Never thought about it that way, but it makes sense, and it works with my concept of a pre-FSA OoX.

I haven’t even touched upon how placing FSA before ALTTP makes things so messy. Like, how does Ganon escape from the FS, and then turn back into a thief in time for the IW, only to be born again as the King of Evil and Darkness. Why would Ganon need a group of thieves to try to enter the SR in the IW if he already had untold power granted to him by the Trident, if theoretically FSA comes before FSA.

Lex covered this pretty well. Measures were taken to make connections between FSA and aLttP, with FSA being the predecessor.

Oh, thanks for bringing this removed quote to our attention!

That quote didn't make it into the game? I was unaware of that.

Edited by Erimgard, 22 May 2008 - 05:30 PM.

[Jumbie]

Oh, thanks for bringing this removed quote to our attention!

That quote didn't make it into the game? I was unaware of that.

Well, unless you remember playing a minigame that involved the Hyrulian alphabet, I'd say it was removed
Then again, I've never played in Tingle's Tower and all that bonus stuff...

[LionHarted]

I should add that the IW text in ALttP itself makes it clear that ALttP involved the Triforce that was "hidden in a [world] beyond the reach of men."

[NM87]

Hello! A new user like myself, kewl. :]

MC references the Oracles and Wind Waker, but I suppose you could write that off as cameo.

It could be placed in a few places I suppose, but I prefer to place it first.

Do you believe that Ganondorf doesn't actually have the Triforce in TP? It has to be in the Sacred Realm for the IW to happen.
Also, note that aLttP GBA manual states the Triforce has been in the Sacred Realm since it's creation. If the Triforce is residing in Link, Ganon, and Zelda in TP, the IW cannot come after TP.

Yes…I do not believe that neither Link, Zelda nor Ganondorf had the Triforce pieces. I view TP in the context of the game itself with what is stated, and do not relate it to any other games. I hold they merely had either the goddesses power or a relation to the pieces as they resided in the SR, and in both cases the element that each of them best represent was the one they receive. I can explain all of this further though messages if you would like…since it’s a touchy argument and I grow weary of those who would hound my every word.

NoA fluff. Ganon is dead, but nothing is said about the Legendary Hero in the backstory. I agree in a aLttP-LA progression though.

Oh I know, but it’s the good kind of fluff. I really don’ need it to support the theory, I just throw it in with hopes people will understand. :]

I interpret this to mean that the Trident in FSA was once wielded by a resurrected demon....OoX Ganon.

That just blew my mind man. Like, the top of my head popped off and fell on backwards. That fits so perfectly with my theory. I just need to change a few things, but everything still remains the same. The OOX Ganon could still be ALTTP Ganon, so the theory doesn’t change, but wow…that theory adds a new layer to mine. You are amazing.

Ganon was born during the Imprisoning War by that quote, not in aLttP itself. aLttP [especially the GBA verison] makes it clear that the Imprisoning War happened ages ago.

Yes I know, but the point was that nothing can really come between the IW and ALTTP. I usually put the IW and ALTTP together as just ALTTP because I hold nothing occurs between them so its like one big event to me. Although you caught me on a valid change I need to make clear, thanks.

In the story of the IW, it's the Triforce, and not the Trident that made him the King of Evil.

Correct, but it is the Trident in which his soul/spirit is encased as I claim in my theory. Its not so farfetched since Ganon as a demon is resurrected from an artifact.

Lex covered this pretty well. Measures were taken to make connections between FSA and aLttP, with FSA being the predecessor.

Jumbie already pointed out that although FSA was originally going to be the predecessor to ALTTP, by taking necessary steps, necessary steps were also aken to take those connections out. Could mean something.

Jumbie, thanks for helping out. :]

Lex, thanks for trying to prey on my limited knowledge of removed quotes. :[

[Erimgard]

Hello! A new user like myself, kewl. :]

'ello :]
I've been lurking for a while.

Yes…I do not believe that neither Link, Zelda nor Ganondorf had the Triforce pieces. I view TP in the context of the game itself with what is stated, and do not relate it to any other games. I hold they merely had either the goddesses power or a relation to the pieces as they resided in the SR, and in both cases the element that each of them best represent was the one they receive. I can explain all of this further though messages if you would like…since it’s a touchy argument and I grow weary of those who would hound my every word.

I've seen similar theories, but I disagree. If you wish to elaborate, feel free to message me, but I think the phrase "power of the gods" combined with the Triforce symbols, and the fact that Link and Ganon both transform [OoT shows us the Triforce pieces can transform you] make it pretty clear that they each have a piece.

That just blew my mind man. Like, the top of my head popped off and fell on backwards. That fits so perfectly with my theory. I just need to change a few things, but everything still remains the same. The OOX Ganon could still be ALTTP Ganon, so the theory doesn’t change, but wow…that theory adds a new layer to mine. You are amazing.

Thank you, but props to Jumbie for the translation. I would've never thought FSA had possible OoX references had it not been for Jumbie.

Yes I know, but the point was that nothing can really come between the IW and ALTTP.

I disagree, but to each his own.

Correct, but it is the Trident in which his soul/spirit is encased as I claim in my theory. Its not so farfetched since Ganon as a demon is resurrected from an artifact.

As stated in Jumbie's translation, Ganon's soul is likely not harbored in it. It's more correctly translated as the evil device of the demon resurrected from ancient times.

Jumbie already pointed out that although FSA was originally going to be the predecessor to ALTTP, by taking necessary steps, necessary steps were also aken to take those connections out. Could mean something.

Things implying FSA as the IW were taken out, but things implying an FSA-aLttP connection were not.

Geography, Kakariko, gang of thieves, etc...all indicated FSA preceding aLttP in fairly close proximity, though by no means a direct prequel.

[NM87]

I've seen similar theories, but I disagree. If you wish to elaborate, feel free to message me, but I think the phrase "power of the gods" combined with the Triforce symbols, and the fact that Link and Ganon both transform [OoT shows us the Triforce pieces can transform you] make it pretty clear that they each have a piece.

I disagree, but to each his own.

There’s nothing I can do really, you believe what suits you best. We could argue until the next Zelda. You said it best in the second quote.

As stated in Jumbie's translation, Ganon's soul is likely not harbored in it. It's more correctly translated as the evil device of the demon resurrected from ancient times.

The translation could be interpreted a number of ways, but again…second quote.

Geography, Kakariko, gang of thieves, etc...all indicated FSA preceding aLttP in fairly close proximity, though by no means a direct prequel.

Most of those examples can be turned around in favor of post-ALTTP placement. For example, Geography/Kakariko could be rebuilt after ALTTP instead of being intact before ALTTP. The thieves referenced in ALTTP are Blinds thieves who moved from the Light World to the Dark World, not the ones in FSA.

[LionHarted]

Most of those examples can be turned around in favor of post-ALTTP placement. For example, Geography/Kakariko could be rebuilt after ALTTP instead of being intact before ALTTP. The thieves referenced in ALTTP are Blinds thieves who moved from the Light World to the Dark World, not the ones in FSA.

I'd say the temples of ALttP being in ruins in ALttP and quite intact in FSA is more telling than any other evidence.

The OOX Ganon could still be ALTTP Ganon

Or LoZ Ganon.

Edited by LionHarted, 23 May 2008 - 11:58 PM.

[Erimgard]

The translation could be interpreted a number of ways, but again…second quote.

It can be taken multiple ways, yes, but not multiple ways at the same time. You can't use it as proof that it's talking about a past event [being [b]a device[/b] of OoX Ganon] and proof of it presently being a harbored spirit. You're using the same phrase as evidence for two different scenarios.

[NM87]

I'd say the temples of ALttP being in ruins in ALttP and quite intact in FSA is more telling than any other evidence.

Yes…and there would still be nothing wrong with the opposite.

Or LoZ Ganon.

Yep (for purposes of your own theory? ;]).

BTW you never responded to my post a long time ago in your IW Ganon topic…which is now conveniently closed. Never mind though, it doesn’t matter, it’s a song with no end.

It can be taken multiple ways, yes, but not multiple ways at the same time. You can't use it as proof that it's talking about a past event [being a device of OoX Ganon] and proof of it presently being a harbored spirit. You're using the same phrase as evidence for two different scenarios.

Who’s to say OOX Ganon’s spirit can’t be encased in the Trident? Ganon has some meaningful connection to the Trident if he was revived with it in his possession from death.

[LionHarted]

Yes…and there would still be nothing wrong with the opposite.

True, although it does violate the pattern of history seen both in Zelda and the real world - that things fall into ruin over time, not that opposite.

Yep (for purposes of your own theory? ;]).

Actually, the theory was born in part because FSA makes no sense if the Trident isn't used before, and I already think FSA being after ALttP makes no sense, so...

The other factor being that I think LoZ/AoL follow TWW, which is reinforced in large part by PH.

Edited by LionHarted, 24 May 2008 - 12:39 AM.

[NM87]

True, although it does violate the pattern of history seen both in Zelda and the real world - that things fall into ruin over time, not that opposite.

Wouldn’t the theory that LOZ-FSA violate this too? Hyrule was on the road to ruin, ravaged by Ganon’s rule. FSA taking place after LOZ, in which Ganon had ruined Hyrule during LOZ, means that Hyrule was rebuilt in your theory as well.

Actually, the theory was born in part because FSA makes no sense if the Trident isn't used before, and I already think FSA being after ALttP makes no sense, so…

The Trident is still never used in your theory, since LOZ Ganon never really is seen with one. Although, I would definitely give you the benefit of the doubt because he probably used it but LOZ is a pothole in itself you could argue.

Why wouldn’t ALTTP-FSA make no sense? Trident used before, Hyrule rebuilt (the natural thing to do after Ganon’s reign) and…no conflicting of the IW (a least in the child timeline). Since you hold OOT as the IW (a valid argument, but maybe so the most sound) you wouldn’t need to deal with that, and placing FSA after ALTTP wouldn’t be a problem. Unless you absolutely need tha FS explanation (which I still don’t understand).

The other factor being that I think LoZ/AoL follow TWW, which is reinforced in large part by PH.

How so? I’d like to hear what you think about it.

[LionHarted]

Wouldn’t the theory that LOZ-FSA violate this too? Hyrule was on the road to ruin, ravaged by Ganon’s rule. FSA taking place after LOZ, in which Ganon had ruined Hyrule during LOZ, means that Hyrule was rebuilt in your theory as well.

The flood provides an adequate explanation for a ruin that leaves no visible architectural traces of the previous civilization, whereas nothing in either ALttP or FSA allots for this. This is quite a different scenario from FSA-ALttP, in which we can trace the decline of specific buildings. Same with OoT-TP and the Temple of Time.

Also, how do you explain Lake Hylia retreating to the south after TMC, then back to the north after ALttP, leaving behind absolutely no traces of a lake in FSA? Wouldn't it make more sense to say that the lake moves constantly south between TMC and ALttP?

The Trident is still never used in your theory, since LOZ Ganon never really is seen with one. Although, I would definitely give you the benefit of the doubt because he probably used it but LOZ is a pothole in itself you could argue.

Quite definitely.

However, TWW allots for LoZ's Hyrule much better than ALttP does, you must admit.

Why wouldn’t ALTTP-FSA make no sense? Trident used before, Hyrule rebuilt (the natural thing to do after Ganon’s reign) and…no conflicting of the IW (a least in the child timeline). Since you hold OOT as the IW (a valid argument, but maybe so the most sound) you wouldn’t need to deal with that, and placing FSA after ALTTP wouldn’t be a problem. Unless you absolutely need tha FS explanation (which I still don’t understand).

OoT is the IW, as far as I'm concerned, until I see proof to the contrary. And by that I mean proof that the IW goes elsewhere, not proof that weakens that initial statement.

Therefore, some event must reconcile the state of affairs in TWW with ALttP, and FSA is the only event to fit that bill.

As for the FS explanation:

1) FS was designed in tandem with ALttP's remake, and the FS itself was placed in the Dark World in ALttP (ergo, if this has some meaning, we infer that the Four Sword has some role prior to ALttP, unless ALttP is when it first appears/is used, which there is no evidence for, since it's never used).
2) FSA was designed with heavy reference to ALttP, and features a Dark World in connection with Ganon, who in the end is sealed by the Four Sword.
3) The ending of FSA has the maidens sealing away the Four Sword.

Point 3 is the only rational explanation for the FS being in the Dark World.

Ergo, I propose that FSA is designed to lead into ALttP in a roundabout way.

How so? I’d like to hear what you think about it.

1) Maze Island. Only seen elsewhere in AoL; an island on the Great Sea.
2) Pols' Voice, Gels/Zols, River Zoras, land-based Octorok, and just about every other commonly-seen 2D-only enemy that has never appeared in another 3D game to date.
3) The state of Hyrule in LoZ is a kingdom in ruins. AoL shows us that the people are scattered amongst islands. AoL also tells us that the King who hid the Triforce of Courage did so with the intent of preparing for a time when a new king would come. Each and all of these elements is present to some extent in TWW. The Triforce also passes in full into the hands of the Royal Family at the end of TWW, which is necessary for LoZ/AoL to occur. This never happens elsewhere in the series.

Edited by LionHarted, 24 May 2008 - 01:37 AM.

[Jumbie]

Jumbie already pointed out that although FSA was originally going to be the predecessor to ALTTP, by taking necessary steps, necessary steps were also aken to take those connections out. Could mean something.

Jumbie, thanks for helping out. :]

No prob. It's me who has to thank that someone takes it into account in their theory.

Thank you, but props to Jumbie for the translation. I would've never thought FSA had possible OoX references had it not been for Jumbie.

Actually, I maintained that OoX > FSA theory before translating that, and I don't know that my translation adds anything to support it. Which OoX references do you mean?

Just like the Master Sword is the "blade of demons' bane" (退魔の剣), which refers to any demon, likewise the Trident is a "demon's evil device" (魔の邪器) which could refer to any demon. It may simply mean that he who claims the Trident can use it to turn into a demon.

Things implying FSA as the IW were taken out, but things implying an FSA-aLttP connection were not.

If FSA is not the Seal War, I don't think the order should be FSA>ALttP but ALttP>FSA.

Geography, Kakariko, gang of thieves, etc...all indicated FSA preceding aLttP in fairly close proximity, though by no means a direct prequel.

Geography can go back or forth.
The FSA gang of thieves is quite disconnected from that in ALttP. Where is their leader, Blind? Why do they come to live in the woods in FSA's ending without first establishing their hideout in Kakariko, as is the case in ALttP?

Also, how do you explain Lake Hylia retreating to the south after TMC, then back to the north after ALttP, leaving behind absolutely no traces of a lake in FSA? Wouldn't it make more sense to say that the lake moves constantly south between TMC and ALttP?

Nothing moves south. The TMC lake can be in the south if you just rotate the map.
And there may be a Lake Hylia in the south of FSA's map which we just never see (disregard the overworld map, it's provably inconsistent with the level maps in a dozen instances).

1) Maze Island. Only seen elsewhere in AoL; an island on the Great Sea.

Is it really that similar, or just in name, which means nothing? Also, AoL's Maze Island being a part of Hyrule, shouldn't it be flooded during TWW+PH?

2) Pols' Voice, Gels/Zols, River Zoras, land-based Octorok, and just about every other commonly-seen 2D-only enemy that has never appeared in another 3D game to date.

This is due to PH being designed like a second LoZ, as Aonuma said. And he didn't speak about the story, but about the fact that it's gameplay-wise a trailblazer, like LoZ was.

3) The state of Hyrule in LoZ is a kingdom in ruins.

You don't need a flood to ruin a country. Ganon's army totally suffices.

The Triforce also passes in full into the hands of the Royal Family at the end of TWW, which is necessary for LoZ/AoL to occur.

It passes, and then it leaves again to the skies. No one has it in their possession in the end of TWW.

[LionHarted]

If FSA is not the Seal War, I don't think the order should be FSA>ALttP but ALttP>FSA.

I still don't understand why.

Would you mind explaining it in full?

Nothing moves south. The TMC lake can be in the south if you just rotate the map.

You can fix lots of problems by ignoring them, yep.

And there may be a Lake Hylia in the south of FSA's map which we just never see

See above.

Is it really that similar, or just in name, which means nothing? Also, AoL's Maze Island being a part of Hyrule, shouldn't it be flooded during TWW+PH?

No, since nothing in AoL's Hyrule is in OoT's Hyrule, save Death Mountain, which is a mountain and wouldn't be flooded anyway.

This is due to PH being designed like a second LoZ, as Aonuma said.

This doesn't really have anything to do with the references, as you said in the remainder of your comments on the subject.

You don't need a flood to ruin a country. Ganon's army totally suffices.

I'm more comparing Hyrule's status as a "little kingdom" to the grandiose state of the kingdom in literally every other game (except TWW/PH and possibly OoX).

It passes, and then it leaves again to the skies. No one has it in their possession in the end of TWW.

Based on this precedent, it "leaves" in each game in which it is united in full.

In at least one of these it has to remain in Hyrule, so that LoZ/AoL can even work.

I would presume the one LoZ follows is the one in which it is actually passed into the hands of the Royal Family.

[Erimgard]

Just like the Master Sword is the "blade of demons' bane" (退魔の剣), which refers to any demon, likewise the Trident is a "demon's evil device" (魔の邪器) which could refer to any demon. It may simply mean that he who claims the Trident can use it to turn into a demon.

The fact that the word resurrected is used indicates that either the Trident was 'resurrected', or the demon was. Either way, it points towards a game featuring the Trident preceding FSA. aLttP and OoX are the only candidates, and I'm a firm believe in aLttP being post-FSA.

[Jumbie]

If FSA is not the Seal War, I don't think the order should be FSA>ALttP but ALttP>FSA.

I still don't understand why.

Would you mind explaining it in full?

Because no other games should happen between ALttP and its backstory. I think that's a basic principle of my way of theorizing.

Is it really that similar, or just in name, which means nothing? Also, AoL's Maze Island being a part of Hyrule, shouldn't it be flooded during TWW+PH?

No, since nothing in AoL's Hyrule is in OoT's Hyrule, save Death Mountain, which is a mountain and wouldn't be flooded anyway.

Fair enough. So, do the two Maze Islands share any similarities?

It passes, and then it leaves again to the skies. No one has it in their possession in the end of TWW.

Based on this precedent, it "leaves" in each game in which it is united in full.

Then let me rephrase it:
There is no one left who could have the Triforce in their possession in the end of TWW.
The King of Hyrule committed suicide, and the only remaining member of the royal family, Tetra, doesn't appear to possess the united Triforce.

In at least one of these it has to remain in Hyrule, so that LoZ/AoL can even work.

Not to mention there is no Hyrule left in the end of TWW.

I would presume the one LoZ follows is the one in which it is actually passed into the hands of the Royal Family.

While the Triforce did pass into the hands of the royal family in TWW, the royal family passed away. Hehe.

The fact that the word resurrected is used indicates that either the Trident was 'resurrected', or the demon was. Either way, it points towards a game featuring the Trident preceding FSA. aLttP and OoX are the only candidates, and I'm a firm believe in aLttP being post-FSA.

Me too, but that point doesn't really deliver evidence. The word can mean "resurrected", "revived", or "brought back". It could just mean the Trident was brought back to daylight from the depths of the pyramid.

[LionHarted]

Because no other games should happen between ALttP and its backstory. I think that's a basic principle of my way of theorizing.

If you hold to that, I suppose.

I personally see that other games disrupt that direct flow, but don't think I need to reconstruct the direct flow in another way, since the developers haven't.

But that's just me. :]

Fair enough. So, do the two Maze Islands share any similarities?

They're both at the extreme northeast.

One can also compare the Isle of Ruins and Isle of the Dead to the two continents in AoL, based on their positions relative to Maze Island. Goron Island is roughly positioned in the same place relative to these two islands as Death Mountain is to them in AoL, as well.

Then let me rephrase it:
There is no one left who could have the Triforce in their possession in the end of TWW.
The King of Hyrule committed suicide, and the only remaining member of the royal family, Tetra, doesn't appear to possess the united Triforce.

The King of Hyrule "left Power and Wisdom" and "hid Courage" prior to AoL.

Not to mention there is no Hyrule left in the end of TWW.

If a new Hyrule is to be made (which Tetra suggests is the case), then there would be a Hyrule after TWW.

Since AoL's Hyrule (and LoZ's, to an extent) doesn't resemble any before-seen Hyrule, I'd say that AoL Hyrule is this new Hyrule.

While the Triforce did pass into the hands of the royal family in TWW, the royal family passed away. Hehe.

Not completely. The pirates still hold to calling Tetra "Zelda".

And so the legend of Zelda lives on.

Edited by LionHarted, 24 May 2008 - 12:20 PM.

[Jumbie]

They're both at the extreme northeast.

One can also compare the Isle of Ruins and Isle of the Dead to the two continents in AoL, based on their positions relative to Maze Island. Goron Island is roughly positioned in the same place relative to these two islands as Death Mountain is to them in AoL, as well.

That's all nice. Since those are still islands and not a vast land mass as in AoL, PH also serves to present a flooded version of AoL's Hyrule. With no necessary timeline implications.

Then let me rephrase it:
There is no one left who could have the Triforce in their possession in the end of TWW.
The King of Hyrule committed suicide, and the only remaining member of the royal family, Tetra, doesn't appear to possess the united Triforce.

The King of Hyrule "left Power and Wisdom" and "hid Courage" prior to AoL.

What the hell has that got to do with TWW?! You completely avoid addressing the problem.
Face it, Tetra does NOT possess the Triforce after TWW. Even if she started another royal family one day, where do you think she'd get the Triforce from? The deceased king was its recent owner, but Tetra is actually a separate individual from the king, she never was its owner.

Not completely. The pirates still hold to calling Tetra "Zelda".

And Tetra totally applauds that, doesn't she? Yeah, one can really see how she just yearns to revive the royal family traditions...

[LionHarted]

That's all nice. Since those are still islands and not a vast land mass as in AoL, PH also serves to present a flooded version of AoL's Hyrule. With no necessary timeline implications.

Remember, the Deku Tree wants to turn the islands into larger islands.

There is no one left who could have the Triforce in their possession in the end of TWW.

No one has to possess it.

In fact, the wording of the AoL manual doesn't even remotely suggest that anyone possesses it.

Just that it was left behind.

If the King of Red Lions intends for them to build a new kingdom, what better way than to leave the Triforce for a new king to claim?

This is precisely what the king in the AoL backstory is said to have done.

And Tetra totally applauds that, doesn't she? Yeah, one can really see how she just yearns to revive the royal family traditions...

Her acceptance of the traditions was never a condition of them surviving.

Daphnes didn't seem to care whether or not she wanted to be Princess Zelda; the fact remains that she is, whether she likes it or not.

[NM87]

The flood provides an adequate explanation for a ruin that leaves no visible architectural traces of the previous civilization, whereas nothing in either ALttP or FSA allots for this. This is quite a different scenario from FSA-ALttP, in which we can trace the decline of specific buildings. Same with OoT-TP and the Temple of Time.

Also, how do you explain Lake Hylia retreating to the south after TMC, then back to the north after ALttP, leaving behind absolutely no traces of a lake in FSA? Wouldn't it make more sense to say that the lake moves constantly south between TMC and ALttP?

I was trying to tell you before that old Hyrule was not flooded, but ?washed away?. The entire land is gone, so they can?t rebuild on a land that isn?t there, even if it was drained. They would have to find a new land. OOT Hyrule and ALTTP Hyrule match up pretty well that we can conclude it?s the same Hyrule. Maybe the village of the Blue Maiden area isn?t shown in ALTTP Hyrule, and where did that Dark Tower go? Or that huge Ice Rink? Its possible that the village of the Blue Maiden area came after ALTTP which would match with LOZ coming after as well, since there is a green area south of Lake Hylia in there too. The geography is subject to change over and over, we shouldn?t waste our time on it.

However, TWW allots for LoZ's Hyrule much better than ALttP does, you must admit.

I do agree with you. I have always tossed the idea around in the back of my head that LOZ Hyrule could be a new Hyrule they find. I consider putting LOZ after WW in my theory lots of times. Spectacle Rock doesn?t allow me too, as well as the Triforce seemingly leaving the scene to go back to the SR or something, and then the entrance to the SR being lost. Plus, its easier o explain why the Triforce is in Hyrule in LOZ - Link was its owner (a Hylian).

OoT is the IW, as far as I'm concerned, until I see proof to the contrary. And by that I mean proof that the IW goes elsewhere, not proof that weakens that initial statement.

You are only going to see the proof when you want to.

1) FS was designed in tandem with ALttP's remake, and the FS itself was placed in the Dark World in ALttP (ergo, if this has some meaning, we infer that the Four Sword has some role prior to ALttP, unless ALttP is when it first appears/is used, which there is no evidence for, since it's never used).
2) FSA was designed with heavy reference to ALttP, and features a Dark World in connection with Ganon, who in the end is sealed by the Four Sword.
3) The ending of FSA has the maidens sealing away the Four Sword.

1) 2) 3) How does the FS get to the Dark World? Better yet, after the flood, how is it possible to enter the SR? If the point in which the goddesses left the land was the SR, which was in old Hyrule, how is it still possible to enter the SR if this isn?t the same Hyrule? The old Hyrule was washed away, thus washing away the entrance to the SR and quite possibly the SR itself.

Maze Island. Only seen elsewhere in AoL; an island on the Great Sea.

This doesn?t make sense?and I think you know why. Why isn?t it proportion to where old Hyrule would be on the Great Sea? If the water was drained then Maze Island should be a mountain afterwards. If there is a new Hyrule, the Maze Island wouldn?t magically move to its location.

The Triforce also passes in full into the hands of the Royal Family at the end of TWW, which is necessary for LoZ/AoL to occur. This never happens elsewhere in the series.

There is no more Royal Family after WW. Even in your theory, this would be a new Royal Family.

[LionHarted]

I was trying to tell you before that old Hyrule was not flooded, but “washed away”. The entire land is gone, so they can’t rebuild on a land that isn’t there, even if it was drained. They would have to find a new land. OOT Hyrule and ALTTP Hyrule match up pretty well that we can conclude it’s the same Hyrule. Maybe the village of the Blue Maiden area isn’t shown in ALTTP Hyrule, and where did that Dark Tower go? Or that huge Ice Rink? Its possible that the village of the Blue Maiden area came after ALTTP which would match with LOZ coming after as well, since there is a green area south of Lake Hylia in there too. The geography is subject to change over and over, we shouldn’t waste our time on it.

1) "Washed away" can't possibly be metaphor?
2) "This ancient land of Hyrule" can't possibly refer to the kingdom instead of the geographical location?
3) What, is there going to be a gaping hole to the earth's core where Hyrule used to be?

Lake Hylia is where the Village of the Blue Maiden is shown in FSA.
The Dark Tower corresponds roughly to Ganon's Tower in TWW, which explains why he turns it into his fortress.
That there is a village devoted to maidens does definitely correspond with villages being devoted to sages in LoZ.

I do agree with you. I have always tossed the idea around in the back of my head that LOZ Hyrule could be a new Hyrule they find. I consider putting LOZ after WW in my theory lots of times. Spectacle Rock doesn’t allow me too, as well as the Triforce seemingly leaving the scene to go back to the SR or something, and then the entrance to the SR being lost. Plus, its easier o explain why the Triforce is in Hyrule in LOZ - Link was its owner (a Hylian).

Link =/= Royal Family. He's never even implied to be king in ALttP, and neither does the Triforce pass to the king in the ending.

Daphnes was the Triforce's owner in TWW, though. The Triforce could be "leaving the scene" to go anywhere, including to be "left behind" for a new king to reunite in AoL. Same could be true of Oracles. More than likely, though, is that one of these games has the Triforce returning to the Sacred Realm. I prefer Oracles, of the two, because TWW does set up nicely for a scenario in which a "new king" should be found (since they want to build a new country). Oracles also concludes the LoZ Ganon arc nicely by completely eliminating his revival cult, which seems to serve as more of a conclusion to the Triforce's activity than TWW's open-ended ending.

You are only going to see the proof when you want to.

I see that the IW places itself at a point in the timeline that can only be occupied by OoT.

Until I see proof that this has changed, I have to go against a directly stated fact (not to mention the developers) to place the IW elsewhere.

Proof that complicates the relationship between OoT and ALttP is not proof that the IW has moved, simply proof that its relationship to either OoT or ALttP is more complicated. If OoT is the IW (which the developers have stated and seemingly upheld), then we already know that the IW's relationship to ALttP must be complicated, since OoT's is.

Unless OoT isn't the IW, which hasn't yet been shown.

1) 2) 3) How does the FS get to the Dark World? Better yet, after the flood, how is it possible to enter the SR? If the point in which the goddesses left the land was the SR, which was in old Hyrule, how is it still possible to enter the SR if this isn’t the same Hyrule? The old Hyrule was washed away, thus washing away the entrance to the SR and quite possibly the SR itself.

1) The maidens seal the FS away at the end of FSA. (Note: This is a certifiable fact, although my interpretation of the implications of this is not.)
2) By creating portals that lead there, presumably.
3) I never said it wasn't the same Hyrule territory, just not the same kingdom.
4) Possibly, but doubtful.

This doesn’t make sense…and I think you know why. Why isn’t it proportion to where old Hyrule would be on the Great Sea? If the water was drained then Maze Island should be a mountain afterwards. If there is a new Hyrule, the Maze Island wouldn’t magically move to its location.

1) AoL Hyrule isn't Old Hyrule? And it's in relative proportion to where it should be relative to Death Mountain, if we take Goron Island to be Death Mountain (which I do).
2) Not necessarily.
3) It doesn't have to...

There is no more Royal Family after WW. Even in your theory, this would be a new Royal Family.

Says who?

And AoL is said to be the fulfillment of a wait for a new king to unite the Triforce anyway.

Edited by LionHarted, 24 May 2008 - 02:21 PM.

[Erimgard]

No one has to possess it.
In fact, the wording of the AoL manual doesn't even remotely suggest that anyone possesses it.
Just that it was left behind.
If the King of Red Lions intends for them to build a new kingdom, what better way than to leave the Triforce for a new king to claim?
This is precisely what the king in the AoL backstory is said to have done.

And what of the King's daughter and her brother?

[Jumbie]

Remember, the Deku Tree wants to turn the islands into larger islands.

I wish him good luck with that...

There is no one left who could have the Triforce in their possession in the end of TWW.

No one has to possess it.

In fact, the wording of the AoL manual doesn't even remotely suggest that anyone possesses it.

Just that it was left behind.

If the King of Red Lions intends for them to build a new kingdom, what better way than to leave the Triforce for a new king to claim?

This is precisely what the king in the AoL backstory is said to have done.

Oh, how very special, so King Daphnes left the Triforce? Of course he did. He let it go. It'll be nowhere else than in the Sacred Realm. Not tying in with AoL's backstory in the slightest.

And don't forget that AoL's great king ruled with the Triforce. If you're trying to claim Daphnes can be the AoL king, you're sorely mistaken.

And Tetra totally applauds that, doesn't she? Yeah, one can really see how she just yearns to revive the royal family traditions...

Her acceptance of the traditions was never a condition of them surviving.

Daphnes didn't seem to care whether or not she wanted to be Princess Zelda; the fact remains that she is, whether she likes it or not.

After TWW it's Tetra's choice, and hers alone, whether there will be another royal family. Because she's the last surviving member.

"Washed away" can't possibly be metaphor?

No, it can't. Wait for the Japanese translation.

The Dark Tower corresponds roughly to Ganon's Tower in TWW, which explains why he turns it into his fortress.

There's no such thing as a dark tower in FSA, it's a temple. Only the mistaken overworld map depicts it as a tower.

Btw, I believe TWW's Hyrule features the North Castle and surrounding area.

[LionHarted]

So the prevailing opinion of Jumbie is:

- The Deku Tree will never connect the islands, even though he says he will.
- The Triforce's only possible destination after TWW can be the Sacred Realm.
- Tetra wants to build a "next Hyrule" but doesn't want there to be a princess Zelda.

[Hero of Legend]

- Tetra wants to build a "next Hyrule" but doesn't want there to be a princess Zelda.

Why would she? Of course, she says outright in PH that she doesn't want the others thinking of her as princess Zelda, so it's not like there is any room for an argument here.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 24 May 2008 - 06:03 PM.

[Jumbie]

So the prevailing opinion of Jumbie is:

- The Deku Tree will never connect the islands, even though he says he will.
- The Triforce's only possible destination after TWW can be the Sacred Realm.
- Tetra wants to build a "next Hyrule" but doesn't want there to be a princess Zelda.

1) His dream won't necessarily fail, I just don't expect to ever see it in a game.
2) Exactly. Or should I believe it goes on a well-deserved vacation trip around the world?
3) Almost right. Just, I also think she won't even name it Hyrule, because she'll probably respect the King's wish - unlike you, who can't seem to get the entire message of TWW.

[LionHarted]

And what of the King's daughter and her brother?

They can either appear before TWW, or after, with the Triforce of Courage being hidden in the Great Palace after.

Of course, she says outright in PH that she doesn't want the others thinking of her as princess Zelda, so it's not like there is any room for an argument here.

And they will think of her as Princess Zelda whether she likes it or not.

1) His dream won't necessarily fail, I just don't expect to ever see it in a game.
2) Exactly. Or should I believe it goes on a well-deserved vacation trip around the world?
3) Almost right. Just, I also think she won't even name it Hyrule, because she'll probably respect the King's wish - unlike you, who can't seem to get the entire message of TWW.

1) Fair enough.
2) It can either go there or be sent somewhere else by the king.
3) Morals of single stories don't have to and often don't apply to entire series.

[Hero of Legend]

And they will think of her as Princess Zelda whether she likes it or not.

Don't act like you have any say about that; your hubris is bad enough without you artificially inflating it.

It may well be that Nintendo decides it is Tetra's fate to found a new Hyrule and assume her rightful place as it's ruler, but if they do, we don't know anything about it yet.

[Arturo]

Where's that quote from?