136 replies to this topic

[NM87]

LoZ Ganon has an altogether hanging origin. He could be Ganon from FSA (coming before or after FSA) or Ganon from Oracles (coming before Oracles). It is unlikely that he is Ganon from ALttP. We cannot assume his origins lie in revival. Ganon is, however, referred to as the character constantly threatening Hyrule in ALttP, implying that LoZ Ganon may be ALttP Ganon, although ALttP Ganon has died. Personally the easiest way I see to reconcile this is to have LoZ before FSA, with FSA's Ganondorf reviving Ganon from LoZ, and ALttP Ganon being this same Ganondorf. This could also be reversed, with ALttP before FSA, and LoZ's Ganon having escaped the Four Sword after FSA. In any case, no game ends with Ganon in a state remotely comparable to his status in LoZ, and the question of which game Ganon escaped the Four Sword before is up in the air. He cannot be related to the Ganondorf from OoT, who has already died in both timelines.

LOZ Ganon steals the ToP from somewhere in Hyrule. This indicates the Triforce is in Hyrule, in pieces or a whole. From the AOL BS we conclude the King hides the ToC and Zelda has the ToW, which she splits. Placing LOZ before ALTTP creates uneeded explanation as to how the Triforce got back to the SR in time for the IW. It makes sense for the option of ALTTP-FSA-LOZ. Besides the part I bolded in your response doesn't make sense. Ganon's status in LOZ is simply that he is a "bad guy" who has threatened Hyrule.

There are at least two incarnations of Ganondorf, and at least three incarnations of Ganon ("incarnation" referring to "origin"--either LoZ as a standalone or to an instance in which a particular incarnation of Ganondorf becomes Ganon for the first time).

The incarnation of Ganon seen in OoT is restricted to TP and TWW.
OoT/TP
OoT/TWW
The incarnation of Ganon seen in FSA could be related to either the incarnation of Ganon in ALttP or in LoZ
FSA/ALttP
OR
FSA/LoZ
The incarnation of Ganon seen in FSA could be a revival of either the incarnation of Ganon in ALttP or in LoZ
ALttP-FSA
OR
LoZ-FSA
The incarnation of Ganon in either ALttP or LoZ must stand alone (although either could be revived in FSA, as stated above)
The incarnation of Ganon seen in Oracles is a revival of any of the dead incarnations of Ganon (most likely LoZ or ALttP)

Response 1 is optional and I have stated it doesn't matter if TP/WW Ganon died or not, everything works the same way as if he survived or not.

Saying that the Ganon in ALTTP-LOZ-OOX-FSA OR ALTTP-FSA-LOZ-OOX is the same Ganon throughout doesn't create any conflict of story, it only makes things easier to explain. Ganon is born in ALTTP, returns from the World of Spirits in LOZ, resurrected in spirit by reawakening the Trident and is revived in OOX. Or he is born in ALTTP is resurrected in FSA by the Trident, escapes the FS in LOZ and is revived in OOX.

Also, ALTTP states Ganon is born during the IW and referenced as the person who has threatened Hyrule.

:::

So the Ganon timeline, assuming OoT is first, could go like this, on either timeline, with Oracles placed after any Ganon-death (mine is bolded and underlined, yours is underlined, the typical one is bolded):

OoT-FSA/ALttP-LoZ
OoT-FSA/LoZ-ALttP
OoT-ALttP-FSA/LoZ
OoT-LoZ-FSA/ALttP
OoT-LoZ/FSA-ALttP
OoT-ALttP/FSA-LoZ
OoT-ALttP-LoZ-FSA
OoT-LoZ-ALttP-FSA

The only real plothole for either my or the typical Ganon timeline is LoZ, which is a plothole by nature. For some reason you opt for the second to last, even though it is one of the ones with the most plotholes (i.e., unrelated Ganon incarnations). Odd, considering you apparently don't advocate multiple Ganons.

You are basically listing all the possible orders of the games. The argument here is if there are mutplie Ganons and if FSA comes before or after ALTTP. Placing LOZ first provides no explanation as to where Ganon came from. Placing FSA before ALTTP conflicts with Ganon's birth and where the Trident came from, as well as why FSA Ganondorf weilding the Trident makes him the King of Darkness.

[NM87]

None of them suggest it has been used by Ganon, which is where the debate arises.

It implies it had been used before, and the only other time we had seen a Trident in Zelda was ALTTP and OOX. Interesting enough, Ganon is revived along with his Trident in OOX, in a ritual which was only supposed to revive Ganon himself. I guess it isn't so crazy to say that the Trident is connected to Ganon himself.

The answers to these, at least in my theory, are simple.

The line proclaiming Ganon became the King of Darkness with the Triforce is found in the description of the Imprisoning War. Since the Imprisoning War was designed into a game (OoT; this is clearly the developer intent), and OoT's Ganon has been killed off in both OoT sequels (TWW and TP), we can assume that the birth of the King of Darkness by the Triforce was not the birth of the King of Darkness in ALttP. Ganondorf becomes the King of Darkness in FSA. Ganon, the King of Darkness, formerly known as Ganondorf, takes the Triforce from the Sacred Realm sometime after FSA and before ALttP.

That, and in the most recent release of ALttP, this line never even appears, and thus I would say is no longer relevant. I've constantly gotten the response that the manual story was shortened to save space, but I reject this notion outright--the storylines of the originals were clearly edited but not shortened.

The intention the the IW was designed to be OOT has since been outdated and now serves no meaning. I myself used those samee interviews back in the day to support that notion.

Although, King of Darkness is not the name given by the Japanese translation. Demon King of Darkness is the title given to Ganon in FSA and ALTTP. So, Jumbie has made this clear with his translations, that Ganon is called the same thing in ALTTP and FSA. Which means that the FSA Ganondorf is becoming the DKoD before the DKoD has been born. Nevermind the title King of Darkness or King of Evil, NOA has always interchanged these titles, but what has remained constant in Japanese is...

(Great) Demon King of Darkness - With him also being the King of Evil in ALTTP/LA

This is what I am trying to tell you.

[NM87]

Why indeed? I find it strange that the tablet does not warn people about the evil within the Trident, so much as it calls out to people to do evil with the Trident. This would suggest that the Trident was placed with the intention of someone special taking it. And out of all the Gerudo warriors who were said to have lost their lives trying to reach the Trident, someone special did take it. Ganondorf; the villain we all know and love.

Not just anyone can weild it, perhaps Ganon's minions knew about the "Great Cataclysm" and wanted only the special one to weild the Trident. The eexistence of a Ganondorf signifies the existence of a Link.

What you have to understand is that the Darkness primarily comes from Ganon's heart, so all he needs is power that can reflect his evil heart to become the King of Darkness.

The only real inconsistency is that Ganon in ALTTP keeps his title in death, which allows him to revive as the King of Darkness. This doesn't happen after his death in TP/TWW, which leads me to believe that either:

a) The power of the Triforce in ALTTP allows Ganon's transformation to be permanent (this assumes FSA > ALTTP).
b) If Ganon chooses reincarnation as a means to return to Hyrule, he must immediately give up his King of Darkness title.

The notion of giving up power is alien to Ganon's character, which is why I would prefer a). On the other hand, b) would explain why Ganondorf quickly develops an evil heart in FSA.

That is to assume that Ganon's dark heart makes him the King of Darkness, but that is untrue. As I explain time and time again, the Demon King of Darkness was born in ALTTP, therefore placing FSA before ALTTP, is illogical because the DKoD cannot exist before he is born. Also, the Trident implies that the DKoD existed already, so that should place it after ALTTP.

[NM87]

"King of Darkness" is, I feel, just a name. It's not some mythical being that mortals can become, it's just what people call Ganondorf occasionally. In ALttP, Ganondorf was originally just a thief; he became much more when he took the triforce, gaining enough power to threaten the world and become known as the king of darkness/evilness/badness or what have you. It's not a transformation; just a title he's given. Darkness vs. Evil is all semantics; it doesn't make a difference.

And I naturally put FSA after ALttP, as I put ALttP first. In my theory, LoZ Ganon is FSA Ganon who's escaped somehow, and the trident is presumably passed down by ALttP Ganon.

Ah, but ALTTP Ganondorf touched the Trident, and by this event the King of Darkness/Evil Ganon was born. Which implies that it isn't just a name given to just anyone.

[Raien]

Not just anyone can weild it, perhaps Ganon's minions knew about the "Great Cataclysm" and wanted only the special one to weild the Trident. The eexistence of a Ganondorf signifies the existence of a Link.

Perhaps only Ganondorf can wield it, but perhaps anyone can wield it. There's no proof here.

That is to assume that Ganon's dark heart makes him the King of Darkness, but that is untrue.

It's been established since ALTTP that Ganon's power is a reflection of his evil heart.

[NM87]

Perhaps only Ganondorf can wield it, but perhaps anyone can wield it. There's no proof here.

Explain why Ganon is revived with the Trident in OOX, if the ritual was only to revive Ganon himself. Clearly there is some meaningful connection between Ganon, Demon King of Evil and the Trident.

It's been established since ALTTP that Ganon's power is a reflection of his evil heart.

Do you mind directing me to where it was established exactly? Perhaps I can better understand this point you intend to make.

[Jumbie]

The intention the the IW was designed to be OOT has since been outdated and now serves no meaning. I myself used those samee interviews back in the day to support that notion.

No one has any proof that OoT = SW is outdated. TWW and TP are not evidence in the slightest, mind you.
OoT was definitely designed as the Seal War, up to this day no developer has ever denied it, and thus it still holds true.

Also, the Trident implies that the DKoD existed already, so that should place it after ALTTP.

Not sure if it matters, but the inscription of the Trident speaks of the King of Darkness, whereas only Ganon introduces himself as the Demon King of Darkness.

[NM87]

No one has any proof that OoT = SW is outdated. TWW and TP are not evidence in the slightest, mind you.
OoT was definitely designed as the Seal War, up to this day no developer has ever denied it, and thus it still holds true.

True, but for OOT to be the IW then the future events of OOT must have occured within the timeline you are placing OOT. Many people forget that once Link went back in time those events were erased. So, in the child timeline those events never happened. My previous timeline held that OOT was the IW only because it was a single timeline where those events could exist. This was...quite a big discussion between me and the user you know as DarkZero.

Not sure if it matters, but the inscription of the Trident speaks of the King of Darkness, whereas only Ganon introduces himself as the Demon King of Darkness.

Interesting, but as you yourself support and have claimed, the rest of the game calls him Demon King of Darkness, which he has been resurrected as. so it doesn't matter. As long as he is called Demon King of Darkness.

[Raien]

Do you mind directing me to where it was established exactly? Perhaps I can better understand this point you intend to make.

It is established by the context in which Ganondorf first became the pig in ALTTP (the original origin story of the character). The Sacred Realm transforms people into monstrous forms that reflect the hearts of people in the Sacred Realm. Ganondorf's heart is filled with greed, and the animalistic symbol of greed is the pig. Thus, Ganondorf's heart is reflect by the Triforce and he becomes the Pig. Miyamoto himself has said Ganondorf is a representation of greed in the Zelda mythology, if that helps support my point.

[Jumbie]

True, but for OOT to be the IW then the future events of OOT must have occured within the timeline you are placing OOT. Many people forget that once Link went back in time those events were erased. So, in the child timeline those events never happened.

The adult timeline always exists with OoT's future, TWW, and PH in it. When Link is sent back in time, a new child timeline is spawned, leading to TP.
Now looking at ALttP's backstory, it says the Seven Sages ran out of time finding a hero to wield the Master Sword, so the Knights of Hyrule had to take his part. This sounds like a third alternate outcome of the OoT child situation.

My previous timeline held that OOT was the IW only because it was a single timeline where those events could exist. This was...quite a big discussion between me and the user you know as DarkZero.

You must have abandoned that before TWW came out, right? The single timeline was killed by Miyamoto and Aonuma in 2003, after all.

Interesting, but as you yourself support and have claimed, the rest of the game calls him Demon King of Darkness, which he has been resurrected as. so it doesn't matter. As long as he is called Demon King of Darkness.

I have not claimed that. "Demon King of Darkness" is said in FSA exactly once, by Ganon himself, and in ALttP it also is said exactly once, by the Swamp Maiden. (Neither "King of Darkness" nor "Demon King" are used in ALttP).

It is established by the context in which Ganondorf first became the pig in ALTTP (the original origin story of the character). The Sacred Realm transforms people into monstrous forms that reflect the hearts of people in the Sacred Realm. Ganondorf's heart is filled with greed, and the animalistic symbol of greed is the pig. Thus, Ganondorf's heart is reflect by the Triforce and he becomes the Pig.

You should really consider that the Dark World already exists within OoT as a reflection of Ganon's evil heart (provable with quotes). I don't know about you, but personally I did not see Ganondorf turn into a pig until the very end of OoT - by his own free will, and back into a human during his sealing. And regardless he is being called the Demon King all throughout OoT!

Miyamoto himself has said Ganondorf is a representation of greed in the Zelda mythology, if that helps support my point.

It does not, not at all, because we see Ganondorf turn into a pig out of greed in OoT's final battle just the same.

Not sure if you base your groundless assumption on ALttP's manual or game text, but the fact is that neither implies that Ganon turned into a pig when he entered the Sacred Realm or touched the Triforce.
The instance where we actually did witness Ganon's initial transformation into a pig is OoT (and TP just the same).

Edited by Jumbie, 28 April 2008 - 04:40 PM.

[Impossible]

No one has any proof that OoT = SW is outdated. TWW and TP are not evidence in the slightest, mind you.
OoT was definitely designed as the Seal War, up to this day no developer has ever denied it, and thus it still holds true.

TWW and TP are only not evidence if there are three timelines, and that's not a safe assumption to start with. Until there's any evidence for that to be the case, then we assume that there are two, and so those games are certainly evidence. Don't get me wrong, that was actually a theory I liked and wanted to be true years ago, because I saw it as the only way to have a flawless timeline and maintain OoT as the IW. But there still is no evidence that Nintendo intended for something like that, and creating a whole new continuity can't just happen because it would work better. And I'd say that TWW, TP and FSA can all be perceived as evidence of the developers now denying that OoT is the IW. Taking them altogether, it shows that ALttP and TWW don't belong on the same timeline, in the very least. Ever since TP, I've abandoned the triple timeline idea because it just doesn't make sense for that to be what Nintendo is doing right now. Aonuma said there were two parallel times, no mention of a third, and TP already shows the beginnings of connecting games on the Child Timeline to ALttP.

[Raien]

You should really consider that the Dark World already exists within OoT as a reflection of Ganon's evil heart (provable with quotes). I don't know about you, but personally I did not see Ganondorf turn into a pig until the very end of OoT - by his own free will, and back into a human during his sealing. And regardless he is being called the Demon King all throughout OoT!

I am quite aware that the cause of Ganon's pig form changes with each individual game, but that only supports the point I'm trying to make. My argument is not "The Pig form exists because of the Triforce's power.", but "The Pig form is a symbolic reflection of Ganon's evil heart."

It was never said in a textual quotation that Ganon's Pig form in ALTTP was created by the reflective powers of the Triforce. But given that the Triforce reflected the heart of every other character in the Sacred Realm, you can't deny the clear symbolism exists. Are we supposed to assume it was just coincidence that Ganondorf's transformation reflected his heart, like everyone else in the Sacred Realm?

Edited by Raian, 29 April 2008 - 09:50 AM.

[NM87]

Do you mind directing me to where it was established exactly? Perhaps I can better understand this point you intend to make.

It is established by the context in which Ganondorf first became the pig in ALTTP (the original origin story of the character). The Sacred Realm transforms people into monstrous forms that reflect the hearts of people in the Sacred Realm. Ganondorf's heart is filled with greed, and the animalistic symbol of greed is the pig. Thus, Ganondorf's heart is reflect by the Triforce and he becomes the Pig. Miyamoto himself has said Ganondorf is a representation of greed in the Zelda mythology, if that helps support my point.

Ganon's heart is evil and filled with greed, so shouldn't he become the King of Greed according to your explanation? How does any of this prove that Ganon derives his powers from his heart? Your response to my post does not support the statement:

"It's been established since ALTTP that Ganon's power is a reflection of his evil heart."

ALTTP told us how Ganon's evil/greedy heart reflected in the SR turned it into a world of monsters and that he became the symbol of greed, the pig. It doesn't state that Ganon's powers are a reflection of his heart, his power comes directly from the Triforce, and his own knowledge of "dark arts".

[NM87]

The adult timeline always exists with OoT's future, TWW, and PH in it. When Link is sent back in time, a new child timeline is spawned, leading to TP.
Now looking at ALttP's backstory, it says the Seven Sages ran out of time finding a hero to wield the Master Sword, so the Knights of Hyrule had to take his part. This sounds like a third alternate outcome of the OoT child situation.

Yes...which is why ALTTP can go in the child timeline after TP. I don't understand what you are trying to tell me. I'm sure we agree on it anyway.

I have not claimed that. "Demon King of Darkness" is said in FSA exactly once, by Ganon himself, and in ALttP it also is said exactly once, by the Swamp Maiden. (Neither "King of Darkness" nor "Demon King" are used in ALttP).

...Ganon has called himself the Demon King of Darkness and has been referred to as the Demon King of Darkness. I only use this term because everyond around here is obsessed with the Japanese. It doesn't matter what he is called, be it King of Evil, King of Darkness, Demon King, Evil King, etc..

[NM87]

What we should understand about Ganon's pig form is that the only two times he turned into it out of his own free will were TP and OOT. In both of those games he was either a goatish beast (OOT) or a pigish beast on four legs (TP). Both of those forms do not relate to Ganon after ALTTP, which is pig form standing upright with arms and blue skin. That Ganon is constant throughout ALTTP-LA-LOZ-AOL-OOX-FSA.

Also, you go under the assumption that OOT Ganon/dorf is that same as ALTTP and on. Personally I think he is. When he touched the Triforce he became the Ganon I described and could not change back.

Ganon aquired the entire Triforce in ALTTP only because the "Legend of the Triforce" came true already, in TP by a divine prank. This way it wasn't only just a piece he obtained as in OOT where he was still Ganondorf primarily, but the entire Triforce transformed him into Ganon upon touching it.

Ganondorf Human
Ganondorf Human + ToP
Beast Ganon = "Ganondorf Human + ToP" Transorming at will
Ganon = Entire Triforce Ganondorf

[Raien]

Ganon's heart is evil and filled with greed, so shouldn't he become the King of Greed according to your explanation? How does any of this prove that Ganon derives his powers from his heart? Your response to my post does not support the statement:

"It's been established since ALTTP that Ganon's power is a reflection of his evil heart."

ALTTP told us how Ganon's evil/greedy heart reflected in the SR turned it into a world of monsters and that he became the symbol of greed, the pig. It doesn't state that Ganon's powers are a reflection of his heart, his power comes directly from the Triforce, and his own knowledge of "dark arts".

Why do you continue to obsess over Ganon's title? Given that Evil represents various metaphorical terms and character traits, Ganon's representation as both Darkness and Greed are both perfectly valid, equal and common sense in the Zelda mythology. The title does not necessitate the character; you're pointlessly nitpicking.

As for the rest of my argument, the Triforce does not contain the power of Darkness, and neither is it said to create Darkness. The Dark World and the power of Darkness in ALTTP are the product of Ganon's evil heart; Ganon is the source of Darkness in ALTTP. The Triforce is effectively a steroid; just as a steroid gives power to muscle, the Triforce gives power to Ganon's evil heart. It's very purpose is to reflect Ganon's evil heart. The wish is itself a reflection of Ganon's desire in his heart.

Edited by Raian, 02 May 2008 - 01:43 PM.

[Jumbie]

But there still is no evidence that Nintendo intended for something like that, and creating a whole new continuity can't just happen because it would work better.

Why not? I think that's exactly what they did.
For all we know, even LoZ and ALttP could be in two parallel timelines, because the events of ALttP are so reminiscent of AoL's backstory, and yet too different for ALttP to qualify as the Sleeping Zelda events of the same timeline.

And I'd say that TWW, TP and FSA can all be perceived as evidence of the developers now denying that OoT is the IW. Taking them altogether, it shows that ALttP and TWW don't belong on the same timeline, in the very least.

The thing in OoT that conflicts most with the SW story is Link's involvement in the fighting and sealing of Ganon, so putting ALttP in the adult timeline has always been a problematic choice regardless of TWW's existence.

Ever since TP, I've abandoned the triple timeline idea because it just doesn't make sense for that to be what Nintendo is doing right now.

Now that's weird - I've only adopted the triple timeline because of TP...! Before TP, ALttP conveniently fit in the child timeline, and those who disagreed where mainly single timeliners. As for the split timeliners, I can't think of anyone but Duke Serkol who already back then went with the order of MM > FSA > ALttP. With most theorists, the placement of FSA before ALttP was a reaction to TP's shoving ALttP away.

TP already shows the beginnings of connecting games on the Child Timeline to ALttP.

The beginnings, yes, but it could've easily connected them all the way by having Ganondorf be sealed in the Dark World instead of dying... Had that happened, I would've been perfectly alright with the order OoT > TP > ALttP. Not thinking about FSA though.

It was never said in a textual quotation that Ganon's Pig form in ALTTP was created by the reflective powers of the Triforce. But given that the Triforce reflected the heart of every other character in the Sacred Realm, you can't deny the clear symbolism exists. Are we supposed to assume it was just coincidence that Ganondorf's transformation reflected his heart, like everyone else in the Sacred Realm?

No, we are supposed to think Ganondorf changed into a pig at will, as seen in OoT. In that game, he still runs around human after turning the Sacred Realm into the Dark World. The thing that changes people's shapes in ALttP is said to be Ganon using the Triforce - or in other words, the Dark World itself because it came to be due to Ganondorf acquiring the Triforce of Power.

And since OoT was made to explain the SW, the explanation OoT provided for Ganon's pig form is to be applied on ALttP's backstory.

Yes...which is why ALTTP can go in the child timeline after TP. I don't understand what you are trying to tell me. I'm sure we agree on it anyway.

I was trying to tell you that I have TWW, TP, and ALttP in three different timelines. While I cannot explain where the third line is spawned from, I observe the games and conclude that it simply has to be that way.
That renders me disagreeing with most everyone here, but I'm not alone with that idea in the community. A couple of Japanese fansites, for example, have come to the same conclusion.

What we should understand about Ganon's pig form is that the only two times he turned into it out of his own free will were TP and OOT. In both of those games he was either a goatish beast (OOT) or a pigish beast on four legs (TP). Both of those forms do not relate to Ganon after ALTTP, which is pig form standing upright with arms and blue skin. That Ganon is constant throughout ALTTP-LA-LOZ-AOL-OOX-FSA.

Just an issue of design. It says nothing about his ability to transform back.

Also, you go under the assumption that OOT Ganon/dorf is that same as ALTTP and on. Personally I think he is. When he touched the Triforce he became the Ganon I described and could not change back.

Ganon aquired the entire Triforce in ALTTP only because the "Legend of the Triforce" came true already, in TP by a divine prank. This way it wasn't only just a piece he obtained as in OOT where he was still Ganondorf primarily, but the entire Triforce transformed him into Ganon upon touching it.

Here you have nothing but assumptions.
Ganon being unable to change back into a human in the 2D games is an assumption.
The Triforce splitting in three only one single time but never afterwards is an assumption.
The "divine prank" working in accordance to its naming is an assumption.

Ganondorf Human
Ganondorf Human + ToP
Beast Ganon = "Ganondorf Human + ToP" Transorming at will
Ganon = Entire Triforce Ganondorf

And that is an assumption all the same.

Edited by Jumbie, 02 May 2008 - 07:11 PM.

[NM87]

As for the rest of my argument, the Triforce does not contain the power of Darkness, and neither is it said to create Darkness. The Dark World and the power of Darkness in ALTTP are the product of Ganon's evil heart; Ganon is the source of Darkness in ALTTP. The Triforce is effectively a steroid; just as a steroid gives power to muscle, the Triforce gives power to Ganon's evil heart. It's very purpose is to reflect Ganon's evil heart. The wish is itself a reflection of Ganon's desire in his heart.

I understand and agree with all of this. While you have proven that Ganon is the King of Darkness because he was skilled in the dark arts before touching the Triforce, in which the Triforce gave him the power to rule over all darkness. Ganon's heart is evil first, then filled with greed, while Ganon himself has the power of Darkness.

Actually, I have forgotten what your argument was. Either we have been repeating ourselves, or you abadoned you first two objections becuase you didn't want to defend them any longer.

[NM87]

I understand, but it is perfectly ok for TP to be on the child timeline having the 2D games follow after the events of TP have no inconsistent bearing on the timline.

Furthermore, Ganon's form is interesting because the only two games where he transform out of his own free will is when he resembles the Ganon who is different from all other Ganons. Even after the release of FSA the developers saw fit to differentiate TP Ganon from all others because TP Ganon was TP Ganondorf transforming out of his own free will, who is actually OOT Ganondorf who transformed out of his own free will after obtaining the ToP, which they both had done, even though it was in seperate timelines. Which means the only Ganondorf who can transform out of his own free will is the original OOT Ganondorf, who is dead in both timelines (supposedly).

Here you have nothing but assumptions.
Ganon being unable to change back into a human in the 2D games is an assumption.
The Triforce splitting in three only one single time but never afterwards is an assumption.
The "divine prank" working in accordance to its naming is an assumption.

Ganondorf Human
Ganondorf Human + ToP
Beast Ganon = "Ganondorf Human + ToP" Transorming at will
Ganon = Entire Triforce Ganondorf

And that is an assumption all the same.

Assumptions in which they cannot be proven otherwise, therefore they are valid. Proof of 2D Ganon being able to transform back is non-existant, while OOT Ganondorf transforming back exists. There has been only one splitting of the Triforce with one intervention by the gods (both on seperate timelines) and anytime after there have been people who aquired it in its entirety, including an evil person (Ganon) and a good person (AOL BS King/ALTTP Link). We are told Ganon, Link and Zelda aquire the Triforce pieces in TP due to a prank, and perhaps the Gods know of the events in another reality because they are all powerful and transcend time.

The forms of Ganon as I have explained them are not my assumptions, but are the pieces of information provided to us by the games. That is, what information we are given and only the information we are given. Ganon in the 2D games being unable to transform is more of an assumption to say he cannot, when we analyze what we know and we know that it was never shown to us that he can.

[LionHarted]

I have not claimed that. "Demon King of Darkness" is said in FSA exactly once, by Ganon himself, and in ALttP it also is said exactly once, by the Swamp Maiden. (Neither "King of Darkness" nor "Demon King" are used in ALttP).

So, I suppose the question is, when the Swamp Maiden recalls Ganon as the "Demon King of Darkness," is she recalling the title Ganon gave himself in FSA, or is Ganon assuming that title purely by happenstance in FSA, long after ALttP?

TWW and TP are only not evidence if there are three timelines, and that's not a safe assumption to start with.

TWW and TP are only evidence that OoT doesn't connect to ALttP.

Some facts have to be changed to accommodate this. At present, since the 2D games fit sloppily into the timeline anyway, it doesn't matter which ones. You have to kill the original meaning of either OoT or ALttP to pull it off.

because the events of ALttP are so reminiscent of AoL's backstory

I'd actually like this explained. The events of ALttP are maybe reminiscent of AoL's ENDING, but that doesn't necessarily indicate an order.

The thing in OoT that conflicts most with the SW story is Link's involvement in the fighting and sealing of Ganon, so putting ALttP in the adult timeline has always been a problematic choice regardless of TWW's existence.

Yet, nevertheless, that is the turn the story has supposedly taken.

No, we are supposed to think Ganondorf changed into a pig at will, as seen in OoT. In that game, he still runs around human after turning the Sacred Realm into the Dark World. The thing that changes people's shapes in ALttP is said to be Ganon using the Triforce - or in other words, the Dark World itself because it came to be due to Ganondorf acquiring the Triforce of Power.

And since OoT was made to explain the SW, the explanation OoT provided for Ganon's pig form is to be applied on ALttP's backstory.

Especially considering he reverts from Agahnim to Ganon at will.

[Jumbie]

Proof of 2D Ganon being able to transform back is non-existant

Lex has already answered that correctly:

Especially considering he reverts from Agahnim to Ganon at will.

Agahnim is a clone of Ganon, a part of his soul that has incarnated as a human in the Light World. Compare with Bellum and the Phantoms.

So, I suppose the question is, when the Swamp Maiden recalls Ganon as the "Demon King of Darkness," is she recalling the title Ganon gave himself in FSA, or is Ganon assuming that title purely by happenstance in FSA, long after ALttP?

Yeah, that's the question... Both is possible really, since Ganon is a Demon King by definition, and King of Darkness flows naturally with him, too.

because the events of ALttP are so reminiscent of AoL's backstory

I'd actually like this explained. The events of ALttP are maybe reminiscent of AoL's ENDING, but that doesn't necessarily indicate an order.

I was thinking that in both AoL's backstory and ALttP, an evil wizard is close to the King of Hyrule plotting something. That was about it.
Hmm, I guess Ganondorf in OoT also is an evil wizard who gets close to the King of Hyrule to plot something... Well then, consider this point untenable.

Edited by Jumbie, 05 May 2008 - 04:19 PM.

[LionHarted]

I was thinking that in both AoL's backstory and ALttP, an evil wizard is close to the King of Hyrule plotting something. That was about it.
Hmm, I guess Ganondorf in OoT also is an evil wizard who gets close to the King of Hyrule to plot something... Well then, consider this point untenable.

It's too bad the wizard dies; otherwise he could be Ganon...

[Raien]

No, we are supposed to think Ganondorf changed into a pig at will, as seen in OoT. In that game, he still runs around human after turning the Sacred Realm into the Dark World. The thing that changes people's shapes in ALttP is said to be Ganon using the Triforce - or in other words, the Dark World itself because it came to be due to Ganondorf acquiring the Triforce of Power.

But did Ganondorf become the Pig at will in OoT? If his power reflects his heart, then the transformation could have been an involuntary result of the rage he felt at his own defeat by Link.

But this is all irrelevant to the entire reason I raised this point. Ganon's pig form is simply the construct of Ganondorf's evil heart; it's not specific to any one incarnation of Ganon. I don't think the pig form has any relevance to the timeline other than to demonstrate the nature of Ganon's heart.

Edited by Raian, 06 May 2008 - 11:37 AM.

[NM87]

Agahnim is a clone of Ganon, a part of his soul that has incarnated as a human in the Light World. Compare with Bellum and the Phantoms.

Agahnim is not a clone of Ganon, he is an alter ego.

Especially considering he reverts from Agahnim to Ganon at will.

Ganon can revert to Agahnim, an alter ego in which Ganon resided as the bat, he has never reverted to Ganondorf the human. By reverting, it is meant that he completely transforms back into the Human and back without the Ganon essence at all. It was revealed that Agahnim was Ganon all along and nothing Ganon had reverted to. So I'll repeat:

Proof of 2D Ganon being able to transform back is non-existant

[NM87]

I was thinking that in both AoL's backstory and ALttP, an evil wizard is close to the King of Hyrule plotting something. That was about it.
Hmm, I guess Ganondorf in OoT also is an evil wizard who gets close to the King of Hyrule to plot something... Well then, consider this point untenable.

It's too bad the wizard dies; otherwise he could be Ganon...

Even if he did not die, there are an untold amount of inconsistencies between the wizard and Ganondorf which I hope don't need to be pointed out.

[LionHarted]

The wizard's backstory isn't fleshed out enough for anyone to say much about him at all, I'm afraid.

But did Ganondorf become the Pig at will in OoT?

We don't see Ganon with his power bound in ALttP, so you're arguing a stalemate.

We do, however, see that once Ganon is sealed in OoT, he reverts back to his normal form.

We don't see Ganon immediately post-sealing in any other game.

Edited by LionHarted, 06 May 2008 - 07:19 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Agahnim is not a clone of Ganon, he is an alter ego.

Read the full sentence, they're the same thing. When the Ocean King split himself into two, he called his old man body containing half of his soul a "clone." This is probably due to a translation error, as "alter ego" and "clone" can both be translated from the Japanese word, "bunshin."

[Jumbie]

But did Ganondorf become the Pig at will in OoT? If his power reflects his heart, then the transformation could have been an involuntary result of the rage he felt at his own defeat by Link.

I meant to say, something in his mind is able to trigger the transformation. Whether it is that willingly or not doesn't matter.
The fact remains that the surrounding circumstances in ALttP Ganondorf's Triforce-acquiring scene are the same as in OoT Ganondorf's Triforce-acquiring scene (disregarding how many pieces he could keep, because ALttP simply doesn't specify on that).

But this is all irrelevant to the entire reason I raised this point. Ganon's pig form is simply the construct of Ganondorf's evil heart; it's not specific to any one incarnation of Ganon. I don't think the pig form has any relevance to the timeline other than to demonstrate the nature of Ganon's heart.

Exactly, this is what everyone agrees on, I think.
But you used this point to try and disproof ALttP Ganondorf being OoT Ganondorf, so I had to defend that.
Fact is that you cannot claim ALttP Ganondorf turned into a pig when he entered the Dark World or touched the Triforce (whichever one it is that you're actually claiming), and that's where this debate ends. Such a thing simply cannot be claimed, I showed why that is, and period.

Agahnim is not a clone of Ganon, he is an alter ego.

Identical in the Japanese word, like MPS has said. And he must know.

Ganon can revert to Agahnim, an alter ego in which Ganon resided as the bat, he has never reverted to Ganondorf the human. By reverting, it is meant that he completely transforms back into the Human and back without the Ganon essence at all. It was revealed that Agahnim was Ganon all along and nothing Ganon had reverted to.

He may just have incarnated as his old human form, put on a cloak, and adopted the name Agahnim to camouflage.
I don't see you saying anything that'd make this impossible, except your personal preference to maintain ALttP and OoT Ganondorf as two separate persons.

So I'll repeat:

Proof of 2D Ganon being able to transform back is non-existant

And disproof too. That's what I've been defending here.

I was thinking that in both AoL's backstory and ALttP, an evil wizard is close to the King of Hyrule plotting something. That was about it.
Hmm, I guess Ganondorf in OoT also is an evil wizard who gets close to the King of Hyrule to plot something... Well then, consider this point untenable.

It's too bad the wizard dies; otherwise he could be Ganon...

Even if he did not die, there are an untold amount of inconsistencies between the wizard and Ganondorf which I hope don't need to be pointed out.

Yeah, I sort of cured myself already from the idea that AoL's backstory and ALttP could be parallels.

[NM87]

Jumbie, in my theory it doesn't matter if OOT and ALTTP Ganondorf are the same or different, and it doesn't mater if 2D Ganon can transform back and forth. It doesn't matter if it the same Ganon/dorf from TP to the end of the timeline.

Placing FSA creates an extreme amount of assuming, no to mention the claim he the Demon Kin was resurrected before his birth. TP Ganon is not the same as the others, but Ganondorf's spirit could be the same. He doesn't become 2D Ganon until ALTTP, who we know as Trident Ganon. The beast Ganon we saw in OOT and TP was just a creature Ganondorf turns into to show his true self, but Trident Ganon is Ganondorf upon obtaining the entire Triforce. It makes perfect sense, while all other interpretations require the assumption and explaining away of inconsistences.

[LionHarted]

He doesn't become 2D Ganon until ALTTP, who we know as Trident Ganon.

Here's the thing, though.

The original IW story poses that he became 2D Ganon when he first took the Triforce from the Sacred Realm.

Right off the bat, OoT's retelling of the IW rewrote this.

So he has to have become 2D Ganon at another time than originally intended, although possibly in the same sort of scenario and through the same means (although I doubt it, since FSA seems to be telling us that the Trident is the source of 2D Ganon).

Oh, and while I'm at it.

Youngsters these days are
forgetting the Hylian
tongue. It's so sad...

In an effort to preserve our
beautiful ancient tongue,
I've made a language exam.

FSA is before ALttP, lawl.

Edited by LionHarted, 22 May 2008 - 04:12 PM.