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FSA closing the child timeline


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#121 LionHarted

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 01:22 PM

Oh my, I see where you're coming from. davogones, too, once theorized there might be two separate AoL kings. I never agreed with that, because the AoL manual is one consistent thing in itself. I outright exclude this possibility due to lack of any reason to forcefully destroy the manual's inner consistency. Same thing with ALttP's manual, of course.


True, although ALttP's most recent manual printing was heavily revised and much of the information that forces it to be directly connected to the IW was removed. AoL's was revised, but a vast majority of the information was retained. (Which is funny, because the prevailing argument against the GBA manual being a revision is that it was shortened to save space, even though the AoL manual is ALSO for GBA, and was NOT revised to save space.) The "first generation" line was not, of course, but the instigation of the naming tradition, of course, was. Interestingly, the things that did change were the things that would necessitate a consistent king (the scroll is no longer written by the king, for instance).

Just one question: What did the king destroy Hyrule for?


To give the children their own world instead of simply handing them his, and to end his own obsessive attachment to Hyrule by destroying Hyrule. Most people interpret this as the land, but I doubt the king would be wasteful enough to completely eliminate entire continents and leave his descendants with relatively nothing, rather than simply eliminating most of the remnants of an already-dead society to give his people a clean slate.

So what? She's a pirate princess until the day she dies. And then it's all over.


Same with her mother. =P

Edited by LionHarted, 27 May 2008 - 01:24 PM.


#122 Jumbie

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 02:05 PM

Well, I'm actually not convinced the Four Sword saga doesn't occur after TWW in some form. It's sort of implied there will be something to that extent.

I see, that explains that.

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware walls talked back. What did I say that's got you in such a bad mood?

Nothing in particular, it's just that I can make any point for no games after TWW+PH, and you'd try to twist it - which is what anyone who puts games after TWW+PH will do. So I'm better off sparing myself the words.

True, although ALttP's most recent manual printing was heavily revised and much of the information that forces it to be directly connected to the IW was removed. AoL's was revised, but a vast majority of the information was retained. (Which is funny, because the prevailing argument against the GBA manual being a revision is that it was shortened to save space, even though the AoL manual is ALSO for GBA, and was NOT revised to save space.) The "first generation" line was not, of course, but the instigation of the naming tradition, of course, was. Interestingly, the things that did change were the things that would necessitate a consistent king (the scroll is no longer written by the king, for instance).

I don't think that the original manuals were overwritten by those of the ports. Because they're not remakes, just ports.
Omission of details is not evidence for the contrary, only contradiction would be.

To give the children their own world instead of simply handing them his, and to end his own obsessive attachment to Hyrule by destroying Hyrule. Most people interpret this as the land, but I doubt the king would be wasteful enough to completely eliminate entire continents and leave his descendants with relatively nothing, rather than simply eliminating most of the remnants of an already-dead society to give his people a clean slate.

Thanks for answering the question. It doesn't convince me though, because the king did eliminate a continent and told his descendants that there is "nothing left for you?".

#123 LionHarted

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 02:14 PM

Omission of details is not evidence for the contrary, only contradiction would be.


I suppose the GBA manual maintaining the early placement of the IW and TWW being released simultaneously and preventing the direct flow between OoT and ALttP did that for me.

I just don't come to the conclusion that the latter prevents the former like most people, or add a third timeline, as you do.

Thanks for answering the question. It doesn't convince me though, because the king did eliminate a continent and told his descendants that there is "nothing left for you?".


To be frank, the king is actually rather ignorant. He seems ignorant of the fact that Link is the reborn Hero (as his surprise to Link being able to assume the power of the Triforce of Courage shows), for instance, and (like OoT Zelda) often doesn't understand the consequences of his actions (removing the Master Sword; ironically the same error OoT Zelda made). Anything that violates his experience in Hyrule seems foreign to him.

My question to you is, if the continent is in fact eliminated, how do the islands remain there?

Edited by LionHarted, 27 May 2008 - 02:17 PM.


#124 Jumbie

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 02:45 PM

I suppose the GBA manual maintaining the early placement of the IW and TWW being released simultaneously and preventing the direct flow between OoT and ALttP did that for me.

Yes, whereas I took the already confirmed split timeline as the way out. And added a gaiden nowadays.

I just don't come to the conclusion that the latter prevents the former like most people, or add a third timeline, as you do.

My major disagreement with your placements is that you have a Hyrule after TWW.
But as it turns out, that issue is pointless to be discussed, since even the most compelling evidence will be dismissed.

To be frank, the king is actually rather ignorant. He seems ignorant of the fact that Link is the reborn Hero (as his surprise to Link being able to assume the power of the Triforce of Courage shows), for instance, and (like OoT Zelda) often doesn't understand the consequences of his actions (removing the Master Sword; ironically the same error OoT Zelda made). Anything that violates his experience in Hyrule seems foreign to him.

You're right. But that doesn't really relate to Hyrule's destruction.

My question to you is, if the continent is in fact eliminated, how do the islands remain there?

Good question! I only recently found an explanation for it.

It cannot be that the entire planet was flooded, but only the kingdom of Hyrule. The Goddesses had the soil of Hyrule sink below the earth (cf. Atlantis), protected by a divine barrier, and the water of the surrounding seas pouring down into the hole is what was experienced by the population as the torrential downpours.
If it was only the relatively small kingdom of Hyrule that sank, that means the level of the planet's sea doesn't drop significantly while filling up the hole that comes to be after the barrier breaks in TWW's ending. Indeed the game shows us that there is no noticeable drop.

In case that answer missed the point of your question: The pouring waters do of course not have the force to crumble the mountains (but everything else of the landscape), that's common sense.

#125 NM87

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 03:12 PM

Eh, what does "..." (and a new text box) mean to you if not a pause in his speech? Of course, it is still quite possible he is talking on the behalf of everyone when he addresses Ganondorf. But like you said, there is little point in arguing semantics, at least in this case.

Possible both ways, moot point, ok done.

I'm sorry, I thought we wanted to know the truth, not what would have be fun if it was true.

I wasn't using the fact that the word Tetra means "popular tropical fish" as a massive argument for her being a pirate forever, I just threw it in there as something interesting.

#126 LionHarted

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 03:13 PM

It cannot be that the entire planet was flooded, but only the kingdom of Hyrule. The Goddesses had the soil of Hyrule sink below the earth (cf. Atlantis), protected by a divine barrier, and the water of the surrounding seas pouring down into the hole is what was experienced by the population as the torrential downpours.
If it was only the relatively small kingdom of Hyrule that sank, that means the level of the planet's sea doesn't drop significantly while filling up the hole that comes to be after the barrier breaks in TWW's ending. Indeed the game shows us that there is no noticeable drop.


That doesn't seem to be the case, by my reckoning, although it is an interesting explanation.

You're right. But that doesn't really relate to Hyrule's destruction.


It certainly relates to Hyrule's future.

In case that answer missed the point of your question: The pouring waters do of course not have the force to crumble the mountains (but everything else of the landscape), that's common sense.


I would argue, however, that (aside from the desert), the landscape changes for the most part between OoT and ALttP, with only the northern mountains, including Zora's Fountain, and the desert remaining. One could have previously argued Lake Hylia as well, but it appears to move south between FSA and ALttP from the water source to the lake basin in ALttP, where the village of the blue maiden once stood. You argue the opposite timeline, of course, but I don't really see it making sense that a lake would retreat closer to its source, nor do I buy your "the designation of places on the world map may not be accurate" bit either (forgive me if I misunderstood your point on this). Obviously the mountains would have remained post-flood, as you of course acknowledge, so the question is how the desert survived. Headstone Mountain is a mostly desert island, however, so that could suffice to stand for the desert itself.

The swamplands, northwestern forest, second peak of Death Mountain, and most of the temples in TMC/FSA/ALttP don't exist in OoT's Hyrule. The geographical landscapes, however, are shown in TFPRR, which appears heavily to be post-flood. I also see consistency between TMC and LoZ. The graveyard is beyond a forest (or what has traditionally come to be known as LoZ's Lost Woods), for instance. In all games it is close to Death Mountain, although this more likely has to do with the name of the mountain than with a specific geographical consistency. And I've already made my case regarding LoZ/AoL and PH. PH also features a pyramid-building culture in a land that is not Hyrule, while the Zuna claim to be descended from wise pyramid builders. And in ALttP a good chunk of the references to the Hylian culture that preceded the ALttP Hyruleans (specifically the language) have a large basis in Egypt.

While I don't think geography plays THAT big a role in the minds of the developers, it is probably the easiest way for them to reference other games while pursuing a free, unhindered story. And of course I prefer to think that nothing is meaningless.

TP is a tricky predicament, since it was originally supposed to go before TWW, and we don't know how much remains of that connection. A number of the small plot details still point to it, like the Triforce parts and the children (Talo and Colin) taking up blades. Some were removed, like Ganondorf's dying speech (he would of course need to be revived after TP to appear in TWW). We also have Aonuma's love of ALttP, which could contribute to his choice of homages. A lot of things in TP parallel things in ALttP (the use of a scapegoat particularly). They also parallel OoT (Zora's Domain freezing, etc.), TWW (Kargarocs being dinosaur-like instead of actual birds), and FSA (the use of the Mirror). So I don't know what to make of it.

Edited by LionHarted, 27 May 2008 - 03:14 PM.


#127 Jumbie

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 10:49 PM

nor do I buy your "the designation of places on the world map may not be accurate" bit either

Well, that one is fact. Just piece together FSA's actual stage maps and compare the resulting map to the level-select map - the inconsistencies will jump at you.

the question is how the desert survived. Headstone Mountain is a mostly desert island, however, so that could suffice to stand for the desert itself.

Oh, that's interesting! Although I highly doubt that the little island can do anything to prevent a vast expanse of sand at the sea bottom from being, well, washed away, I do see a resemblance between Headstone Island and TP's desert. So, this is useful to explain where the desert may once have been, but it does nothing to help you explain how the desert will return.

PH also features a pyramid-building culture in a land that is not Hyrule, while the Zuna claim to be descended from wise pyramid builders.

Aren't the Cobbles an ancient civilization during PH already, most of them being deceased? So how can they later build pyramids in FSA's Hyrule, a land that doesn't exist yet in PH?

We also have Aonuma's love of ALttP, which could contribute to his choice of homages. A lot of things in TP parallel things in ALttP (the use of a scapegoat particularly).

I see you agree with me about this, as in, we both use it to defend ALttP not being in TP's timeline.

Edited by Jumbie, 27 May 2008 - 10:54 PM.


#128 NM87

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 11:04 PM

So I don't know what to make of it.

It means that TP was foreshadowing the rest of the 2D timeline in one game.

TP-ALTTP/LA/OOX-FS/FSA-LOZ/AOL

I also don't think hat geography is important at all anymore, since the introduction of TP. Seriously, OOT Hyrule and ALTTP Hyrule match up pretty well. There are some woods beyond the castle in OOT and the swamplands could easily be the Lon Lon Ranch area. Eastern Temple is the Forest Temple. Etc. Etc.

Edited by NM87, 27 May 2008 - 11:06 PM.


#129 LionHarted

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 10:35 AM

It means that TP was foreshadowing the rest of the 2D timeline in one game.


It's pretty vague foreshadowing and leaves too many holes and dead-end references for my comfort.

Just piece together FSA's actual stage maps and compare the resulting map to the level-select map - the inconsistencies will jump at you.


Not really, at least, not in the case of Lake Hylia.

Oh, that's interesting! Although I highly doubt that the little island can do anything to prevent a vast expanse of sand at the sea bottom from being, well, washed away, I do see a resemblance between Headstone Island and TP's desert. So, this is useful to explain where the desert may once have been, but it does nothing to help you explain how the desert will return.


The Deku Tree wants to make the islands larger, and this would certainly apply to Headstone Island. Also, I am quite certain that we are to take the scale of TWW as much larger than it actually is, most likely in proportion with the passage of time.

Aren't the Cobbles an ancient civilization during PH already, most of them being deceased? So how can they later build pyramids in FSA's Hyrule, a land that doesn't exist yet in PH?


We don't know for certain whether most of them are deceased, just that their kingdom is vanquished.

I see you agree with me about this, as in, we both use it to defend ALttP not being in TP's timeline.


I just happen to extend that to other things, such TP not being in the Adult timeline, and therefore unconnected to TWW, and serving as a parallel for all other games that are remotely OoT sequels. I see the disconnection of TP from FSA via the destruction of what would be the sole reference as a definitive consequence of the decision to change the story direction of TP from part of the Adult timeline to an alternate story, and also as a definitive disconnection from ALttP.

Edited by LionHarted, 28 May 2008 - 10:39 AM.


#130 NM87

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 04:13 PM

It's pretty vague foreshadowing and leaves too many holes and dead-end references for my comfort.

Such as...?

Edited by NM87, 28 May 2008 - 04:13 PM.


#131 LionHarted

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 04:25 PM

Such as...?


1) "The history of light and shadow shall be written in blood!"

Okay, so there are going to be conflicts in the future. Does this mean they're going to be the ones we've already seen in other games? Maybe. Maybe not.

2) The Mirror of Twilight, which serves as the only direct reference to FSA, is destroyed utterly at the end of TP, with the implication that it will not be restored as you restore it in the game. Since FSA cannot come before TP (unless it is also before OoT), it would seem TP has been disconnected from FSA, and therefore apparently from ALttP and the rest of the series by extension. This would render the apparent ALttP references as mere nostalgia.

Shall I list more?

#132 NM87

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 04:31 PM

1) "The history of light and shadow shall be written in blood!"

Okay, so there are going to be conflicts in the future. Does this mean they're going to be the ones we've already seen in other games? Maybe. Maybe not.

And this is a plot-hole/dead-end refrence because?

2) The Mirror of Twilight, which serves as the only direct reference to FSA, is destroyed utterly at the end of TP, with the implication that it will not be restored as you restore it in the game. Since FSA cannot come before TP (unless it is also before OoT), it would seem TP has been disconnected from FSA, and therefore apparently from ALttP and the rest of the series by extension. This would render the apparent ALttP references as mere nostalgia.

If the two mirrors are the same, perhaps its one possible inconsistency, but as you said, your timeline has come to pass by relying on FSA supposedly ?fixing? the OOT/ALTTP connection. Not a big plot-hole as you make it out to be, and it only is if they were the same mirrors, which is not proven.

Also, lets say we placed FSA in the adult timeline after WW? Then I use your argument for there being a Hyrule after WW, and then this ?plot-hole? is all clear. Funny isn?t, you helping me out! Keep-em comin?!

#133 LionHarted

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 04:35 PM

And this is a plot-hole/dead-end refrence because?


Because it foreshadows future events, but is wildly unspecific.

Yet people take it as though it is definitive proof that TP links to the 2D games.

Fascinating.

If the two mirrors are the same, perhaps its one possible inconsistency, but as you said, your timeline has come to pass by relying on FSA supposedly ?fixing? the OOT/ALTTP connection. Not a big plot-hole as you make it out to be, and it only is if they were the same mirrors, which is not proven.


They are about the same as the Four Swords in both TMC and FS/A.

Then I use your argument for there being a Hyrule after WW, and then this ?plot-hole? is all clear. Funny isn?t, you helping me out! Keep-em comin?!


Oh, I never said it was.

I just said TP completely eliminates what would have been its strongest reference and nothing otherwise (aside from the Master Sword's placement) specifically connects to anything from the 2D games.

Edited by LionHarted, 28 May 2008 - 04:36 PM.


#134 Chaltab

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 04:36 PM

2) The Mirror of Twilight, which serves as the only direct reference to FSA, is destroyed utterly at the end of TP, with the implication that it will not be restored as you restore it in the game. Since FSA cannot come before TP (unless it is also before OoT), it would seem TP has been disconnected from FSA, and therefore apparently from ALttP and the rest of the series by extension. This would render the apparent ALttP references as mere nostalgia.


Perhaps ALTTP can follow Twilight Princess without following FSA, though. Suppose FSA happens in the Adult Timeline; then the Mirror would not have been destroyed and that game would play out as it does.

Ganondorf could still acquire the Trident in the Child Timeline in the exact same way he did in FSA, but without the interference of the Dark Mirror and Vaati, and use it in a Seal War that is neither Ocarina or FSA.

#135 LionHarted

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 04:41 PM

Perhaps ALTTP can follow Twilight Princess without following FSA, though. Suppose FSA happens in the Adult Timeline; then the Mirror would not have been destroyed and that game would play out as it does.

Ganondorf could still acquire the Trident in the Child Timeline in the exact same way he did in FSA, but without the interference of the Dark Mirror and Vaati, and use it in a Seal War that is neither Ocarina or FSA.


1) In the first place, I see no reason why FSA can follow Adult OoT without being linked to ALttP. Unless the exact same buildings are built in a New Hyrule that are built in the Hyrule on the other side of the timeline, which is frankly too absurd for me to consider (although, with Ninty's obsession with parallel games, anything can happen, I admit).

2) Second of all, FSA carries far more and far more specific references to ALttP than TP does, so linking TP to ALttP instead of FSA seems rather silly unless Nintendo really doesn't care about consistency at all, which I refuse to believe.

3) The seal war, as far as I can tell, definitely involves the Triforce and definitely starts as a result of the Triforce being disturbed for the first time. If it happens on the child timeline, it happens before TP (which I frankly like better than it being on the Adult Timeline, but the FSA Mirror problem perplexes me too much to follow this solution).

#136 NM87

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 04:44 PM

Because it foreshadows future events, but is wildly unspecific.

Yet people take it as though it is definitive proof that TP links to the 2D games.

Fascinating.

Especially when you consider Ganondorf's last words in WW and his last words in TP. In WW, he pretty much...dies. In TP, he makes a whole big thing about the bloody history and his descendents that will follow.

They are about the same as the Four Swords in both TMC and FS/A.

Nahhhh.

Oh, I never said it was.

I just said TP completely eliminates what would have been its strongest reference and nothing otherwise (aside from the Master Sword's placement) specifically connects to anything from the 2D games.

How so? The mirror? Ok, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. So you got anymore inconsistent plot-holes and/or dead references? I'll get to them later.

#137 LionHarted

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 04:46 PM

Especially when you consider Ganondorf's last words in WW and his last words in TP. In WW, he pretty much...dies. In TP, he makes a whole big thing about the bloody history and his descendents that will follow.


But he doesn't.

The descendants part of the speech was removed.

Yet another dead-end would-be referenece.

So you got anymore inconsistent plot-holes and/or dead references? I'll get to them later.


I'll get around to it.




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