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FSA closing the child timeline


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#1 NM87

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 11:39 PM

ATTN: My thoughts here are outdated.

Hello all! I was referred to this website by an old friend. There *might* be one or two of you who *might* know me. I used to discuss timeline theories long ago, but stopped since nothing was getting accomplished. We now have access to much more information that before, so I decided to temporarily reopen my Zelda mind. I have been thinking about this timeline here for quite sometime, and wanted to know what everyone thought about it. I apologize if this has already been discussed, or is someone else’s ideas. I’m brand new here. So I’ll quickly give you the run down of the timeline, assuming that most of you know the storylines of each game.

………………OOT Future - WW/PH
MC-OOT Past
………………MM – TP – ALTTP/LA – LOZ/AOL - OOX – FS/FSA

-MC is first because it references no other Zelda and has no mention of Ganon. This led me to conclude it is best to place first.
-Split Timeline. The events of the Adult Reality happen as explained in the games.
-After TP, Ganon/dorf does not die but comes back in time for the IW. Ganon/dorf tells Link and Zelda at the end of TP to not think that “this is the end”. I doubt we should take this quote lightly.
-IW/ALTTP/LA occur on time, where at the end of ALTTP Ganon is defeated, but remains as ashes, leaving possibilities for him to be revived. Refer to the LA manual to confirm Ganon’s state after he was defeated.

"Though you fulfilled the Hyrulian prophecy of the Legendary Hero and destroyed the evil tyrant Ganon, the land of Hyrule enjoyed only a precarious peace. "Who knows what threats may arise from Ganon's ashes?"

Clearly states Ganon is ashes and references Link as the Legendary Hero from ALTTP.
-Ganon is revived from the World of Spirits where his ashes remain when he is defeated. (AOL Manual Japanese Translation) He steals the ToP from the castle because it was one of the pieces the prince from the AOL BS was able to maintain from the King. The Triforce was not whole in the time of LOZ, therefore he was able to steal one piece.
-Ganon’s minions try to revive him once in AOL and again in the Oracle series, but fail both times. His spirit is encased in the Trident while it awaits someone to awaken it.
-Vaati escapes the seal of the FS. In FSA Ganon is resurrected, but sealed in the FS. There is no need to explain how he escapes from that because it doesn’t matter.

I am pretty sure that everyone here can understand the timeline up until FSA, because everything flows well and explains itself. The only thing that needs to be elaborated on here is the placement of FSA. I glanced at the last few pages of the translation topic on this board, and found a nice quote.

King of Darkness… The man who took the Trident, the evil device (ja-ki) of the demon resurrected from ancient times!!

King of Darkness, ancient demon reborn. The wielder of the trident!!


Both of these quotes imply that the King of Darkness is being resurrected from ancient times. There is no way around this but to admit that Ganon himself is being resurrected through the FSA Ganondorf wielding the Trident. You simply cannot say that this is some other demon, because there is no proof of another demon throughout the Zelda timeline. If you want to argue and say that the Ganon/dorf from TP is being resurrected here, that will be incorrect as well. Ganon/dorf in TP never became the King of Darkness or King of Evil, and he is never mentioned as such throughout the entire game. Clearly FSA must occur after a game in which Ganon became the King of Darkness in order for him to be reborn. In case you want to tell me Ganon didn’t become the King of Darkness in ALTTP…

You are the only one who can destroy Ganondorf, the thief-no, Ganon, the evil King Of Darkness!

-Maiden, Swamp Palace ALTTP


Ganon is being referred to as the King of Darkness in ALTTP, plain as day. Why? He has already become the King of Evil, and is now ruler of the Dark World, which means he is King of all that dwell in the Dark and King of Dark powers. Obviously this immediately means he is the King of Darkness as well as Evil. In ALTTP he became both King of Darkness & Evil.

Indeed, the King of Evil Ganon, the one who has threatened Hyrule so, was born at this time.

-Japanese translation ALTTP Manual


At the time Ganondorf touches the Triforce in ALTTP the King of Evil Ganon is born. If you place FSA before ALTTP, Ganon is resurrected in FSA (from what I don’t know) and then born for the first time again (?) in ALTTP as someone else. Although for one to be resurrected, you must have had to be born at a previous time, so you are saying Ganon was born twice while being resurrected in between both occasions? So by placing ALTTP after FSA you are saying that the King of Darkness is being resurrected before he was born. Since in TP Ganon/dorf never became the King of anything, which means there is nothing for the ancient demon to be reborn from.

“One day, the Great Demon King Ganon, who planned to rule the world with darkness and fear, led an evil army corps and invaded the kingdom and snatched the Triforce of Power.”

-Japanese translation LOZ Manual


If we are all pretty clear on the fact that ALTTP Ganon is LOZ Ganon this would mean that Ganon was a demon in ALTTP, which means that FSA’s statement of an ancient demon being resurrected is true.

Many people believe that Ganondorf first acquires the Trident in FSA. I believe this is untrue. Who is to say that the Trident gives Ganon his power for the first time in FSA and who is to say that FSA is the first time Ganon has the Trident? My explanation is that we were duped into believing this. Ganon had the Trident during the IW for the first time, where he most likely came across it way back then. Some time before the IW, Ganon had fashioned himself the Trident to amplify or focus his powers, or he found it in that desert temple where it rested in FSA. In either case he got it during the IW or sometime before.

Eventually Ganon would be defeated in ALTTP only to return in LOZ, where he is defeated again. His minions try their best to revive him, once in AOL and again in OOX. They fail both times and decide to encase his spirit in his magic Trident. Ganon’s minions place the Trident somewhere in Hyrule in hopes that one day someone would wield the Trident and awaken the true Ganon, in which the true Ganon would return.

Many years have passed since the time of LOZ/AOL/OOX and Hyrule has been restored to its former glory. During that time, the desert folk learn of the ancient Trident and build a pyramid around it in order to stop those who would seek it. These are the Zuna we meet in FSA. This supports the notion that Ganon doesn’t necessarily need to acquire the Trident for the first time in FSA.

“Swiftly and suddenly, dark clouds covered all of Hyrule. Ominous clouds that filled all those who saw them with fear... A sense of dread swept across the land.”

- Zelda FSA


This sounds familiar; the story of ALTTP starts the same way.

Here is another translation from the translation topic.

Seek you the world? Seek you power?
If peace is boring, if that soul thirsts
If that soul cries for destruction and conquest
You are granted, in order to ruin the world, the power of darkness
Drown in desire and desire everything
Born from darkness, the demon's evil device, the trident
You are the King of Darkness


This seems to imply that Ganon’s minions wrote this on the Trident to entice prospective villains to pick up the Trident. It also clearly states there is a spirit already dwelling in the Trident, who is the King of Darkness. It also states that the Trident is born from darkness, which is how Ganon acquired it in ALTTP, he might have made it himself. It also states that the Trident is the demons evil device, implying it already has an owner.

I haven’t even touched upon how placing FSA before ALTTP makes things so messy. Like, how does Ganon escape from the FS, and then turn back into a thief in time for the IW, only to be born again as the King of Evil and Darkness. Why would Ganon need a group of thieves to try to enter the SR in the IW if he already had untold power granted to him by the Trident, if theoretically FSA comes before FSA.

Edited by NM87, 13 February 2009 - 11:58 AM.


#2 Epix

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 01:44 AM

Another n00b to these forums here, but I too have been theorising on the Zelda timeline for quite a few years now. :)

Anyway - I really like this theory. My own timeline is quite similiar to yours and your theory of Ganon acquiring the Trident long before FSA makes a lot of sense. The Trident being sealed by the Zuna in the Pyramid also reminds me of how the massive sword + phantom were sealed in the Arbiter's Grounds; considering the size, evil power and the fact that we have seen Ganondorf with a huge sword in other instances (that old SpaceWorld 2000 trailer, Ganondorf trophies in S.S.B. Melee, etc.), I can only conclude that he wielded that weapon before he was captured by the Sages in the TP backstory. He probably lost the Sages's Sword after TP, so it would make sense that upon his return, Ganondorf would seek or create another great weapon. Other people would definitely have tried to seal such a thing when he was defeated, especially if it contained Ganondorf's essence.

Nice theory. :D

#3 Impossible

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 01:56 AM

...NintendoMan, right? I'm sure you remember me.

You should probably read over some of the translation topic again. You can't, for example, base anything around Ganon being "ashes" after ALttP, because that wasn't even in the Japanese manual. Also, in FSA, Ganondorf himself isn't revived, he's a new Gerudo male. In fact, many things in FSA don't make much sense at the end of the timeline, although I won't detail all of them.

Edited by Impossible, 21 April 2008 - 01:57 AM.


#4 Raien

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 08:01 AM

Hi NM87. Remember me?

I have two main disagreements with your argument about FSA.

1) The Japanese translation surrounding the Trident is ambiguous to the point where we cannot definitely assert that there is an evil spirit dwelling within the Trident. The quote that says "the evil device of the demon resurrected from ancient times" could be referring to the demon or the Trident (and yes, items can get resurrected). Furthermore, Jumbie (who translated it) believes that FSA is not referencing a specific demon, but meaning "a device that demons use". So it's entirely possible that the Trident's origin has no connection with an ancient demon.

2) The King of Darkness is said to be the man who took the Trident, not a spirit within the Trident. There's a definite disconnection between the two in that respect.

And also, did you not cite dark clouds as a connection between FSA and ALTTP? Well, dark clouds are always synonymous with Ganon's arrival. In OoT, Zelda had a dream in which she said the dark clouds represented Ganondorf.

Edited by jhurvid, 21 April 2008 - 08:11 AM.


#5 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 08:03 AM

Your reasons for game placement are really, really, fickle, as I've already noted. Are you seriously basing entire placements on single lines at a time? and OOX Link can't be LOZ/AOL Link at all. OOX is younger and blonde, first of all, among many, other things.

#6 Raien

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 08:10 AM

Yeah, a word of warning, NM87. Although quotations are still important to timeline theorising, what is more important now is the context in which these quotations were written. In other words, what were the developers meaning with certain quotations? Are they timeline references or specifically tied to the in-game storyline? Could they actually be nostalgia references (easter eggs)? Is it realistic that the developers would connect two specific quotations? It's very easy to draw connections from quotes that weren't intended to exist.

The best way to judge intent is to look at interviews with the developers about how they make the games and what they prioritise. From my learning,
-The developers prioritise a coherent in-game storyline before they apply timeline connections.
-The developers are not keen to change the timeline placements for previously released games; they just add to the timeline with each new release.

Edited by jhurvid, 21 April 2008 - 08:17 AM.


#7 LionHarted

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 09:34 AM

I haven’t even touched upon how placing FSA before ALTTP makes things so messy. Like, how does Ganon escape from the FS, and then turn back into a thief in time for the IW, only to be born again as the King of Evil and Darkness. Why would Ganon need a group of thieves to try to enter the SR in the IW if he already had untold power granted to him by the Trident, if theoretically FSA comes before FSA.


If you believe such things, one could take the Palace of the Four Sword quest in the GBA version of ALttP as canonical evidence toward Ganon having escaped the Four Sword. The Four Sword has been broken into its Four Aspects (Green, Red, Blue, Purple; the same aspects of the White Sword), and scattered throughout the Pyramid of Power in the Dark World. This would seem to suggest that either the Four Sword was placed in the Sacred Realm or the Four Sword sealed Ganon in the Sacred Realm. I fully endorse either as being the case, as the visuals in FSA at the very end, when the maidens seal the sword under a pyramid-shaped seal, evokes an old piece of artwork regarding ALttP, which showed Ganon under a similar pyramid-shaped seal after the IW.

As for reasons FSA should be before ALttP, look to the following:

1) The Desert Temple is in ruins in ALttP; it is considerably more complete in FSA.
2) The Maidens are prominent in FSA; they are more obscure in ALttP. (This could go either way, however.)
3) ALttP references a band of thieves who once inhabited Kakariko Village. FSA features these thieves ransacking Kakariko Village, prompted to thievery by the spread of darkness.
4) ALttP references the transformation of Ganondorf the thief into Ganon, the King of Darkness. If we are to believe that ALttP's relationship to the rest of the series has been changed, this would provide us the point of origin of ALttP's Ganon.

#8 NM87

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 12:50 PM

I’ll address everyone eventually. I am sure we all have had quite a few birthdays since the last time we spoke; meaning timeline discussion has changed a lot. A lot of my old stuff probably isn’t valid anymore, and neither are the ways we would go about timeline discussion. I do appreciate it if all of you would sort of fill me in on the most up to date rules and regulations. I promise to catch on quick.

#9 NM87

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 01:03 PM

Epix-

Thanks, I'm glad I can have at least one friend here :D I was thinking about possibilites of Ganon getting the Trident before FSA because it didn't make sense for him to be resurrected from the Trident before getting it! I also like your connection between that sword in Arbiter's Grounds and the Trident in FSA. Makes sense because the people in Hyrule are always hiding things of great power.

Nice to meet you!

Impossible-

...NintendoMan, right? I'm sure you remember me.


Well, of course I remember you. You're Impossible to forget.

Anyway, I like to slip that LA quote in there to explain how Ganon comes back for LOZ. I don't really need t because its well accepted that he does come back. No one knows how, so we all have to deal with solving the mystery.

No, I don't think you understand what I am saying about Ganondorf. Much like there are multiple Links and Zeldas, there can be multiple Ganondorfs, although there is one Ganon. The Ganondorf from FSA is not being revived, yes, but Ganon is being resurrected because he is awakened from the Trident.

#10 NM87

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 01:33 PM

Hi NM87. Remember me?

I have two main disagreements with your argument about FSA.

1) The Japanese translation surrounding the Trident is ambiguous to the point where we cannot definitely assert that there is an evil spirit dwelling within the Trident. The quote that says "the evil device of the demon resurrected from ancient times" could be referring to the demon or the Trident (and yes, items can get resurrected). Furthermore, Jumbie (who translated it) believes that FSA is not referencing a specific demon, but meaning "a device that demons use". So it's entirely possible that the Trident's origin has no connection with an ancient demon.

2) The King of Darkness is said to be the man who took the Trident, not a spirit within the Trident. There's a definite disconnection between the two in that respect.

And also, did you not cite dark clouds as a connection between FSA and ALTTP? Well, dark clouds are always synonymous with Ganon's arrival. In OoT, Zelda had a dream in which she said the dark clouds represented Ganondorf.


Yes, I remember you jhurvid. How have you been?

The quote to me means, in its entirety:

King of Darkness… The man who took the Trident, the evil device (ja-ki) of the demon resurrected from ancient times!!

I begins talking about the King of Darkness but the sentence ends talking about the Trident, describing it as an evil device used by the demon resurrected from ancient times. If we go with ALTTP-LOZ-FSA, then yes, the demon residing in the Trident would be a demon resurrected because Ganon was resurrected between ALTTP and LOZ. So by referencing the King of Darkness being resurrected from ancient times, it is safe to say he was resurrected once before and inscribing that on the Trident would make sense.

It does say the King of Darkness took the Trident, but the word "took" would imply the King of Darkness had already "taken" the Trident at some other point. This would still mean that his spirit is in the Trident because he owned it before.

~~~

Mike-

OOX doesn't need to be the same Link as LOZ/AOL, I just put them together because that wasn't the main point of my theory. Just seperate OOX from LOZ/AOL and everything is fine. I also dont believe that my theory is based on single lines, because I told you my entire theory without using a sinlge quote (save the LA quote that I don't really need to explain Ganon's return in LOZ).

My theory is primarily about Ganon getting the Trident before FSA, and how he is being resurrected in FSA at the end of the timeline.

I really don't see what major inconsistencies here are with the theory yet, besides the two jhurvid brought up, which I already explained.

#11 Raien

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 01:37 PM

NM87, Jumbie confirmed that you can correctly reverse "evil device of the demon" to say "demon's evil device", so it says:

King of Darkness… The man who took the Trident, the demon's evil device (ja-ki) resurrected from ancient times!!

It doesn't invalidate your interpretation, but it's not concrete.

Edited by jhurvid, 21 April 2008 - 01:38 PM.


#12 NM87

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 01:43 PM

Hello there! Nice to meet you LH.

If you believe such things, one could take the Palace of the Four Sword quest in the GBA version of ALttP as canonical evidence toward Ganon having escaped the Four Sword. The Four Sword has been broken into its Four Aspects (Green, Red, Blue, Purple; the same aspects of the White Sword), and scattered throughout the Pyramid of Power in the Dark World. This would seem to suggest that either the Four Sword was placed in the Sacred Realm or the Four Sword sealed Ganon in the Sacred Realm. I fully endorse either as being the case, as the visuals in FSA at the very end, when the maidens seal the sword under a pyramid-shaped seal, evokes an old piece of artwork regarding ALttP, which showed Ganon under a similar pyramid-shaped seal after the IW.


Thats a nice idea. Although I don't accept remakes as canonical because it was never in the original.

As for reasons FSA should be before ALttP, look to the following:

1) The Desert Temple is in ruins in ALttP; it is considerably more complete in FSA.
2) The Maidens are prominent in FSA; they are more obscure in ALttP. (This could go either way, however.)
3) ALttP references a band of thieves who once inhabited Kakariko Village. FSA features these thieves ransacking Kakariko Village, prompted to thievery by the spread of darkness.


As I told Impossible in the other topic, the areas/maidens/theives we see in FSA are all new. They don't have to necesarily be connected to ALTTP.

4) ALttP references the transformation of Ganondorf the thief into Ganon, the King of Darkness. If we are to believe that ALttP's relationship to the rest of the series has been changed, this would provide us the point of origin of ALttP's Ganon.


This is simply not true. Find me one quote, (besides the one I presented above in my argument) that references Ganon as the King of Darkness or how he supposedly "transformed into" the King of Darkness. If you could find a quote I missed I might consider this reason as a valid objection.

#13 NM87

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 01:46 PM

NM87, Jumbie confirmed that you can correctly reverse "evil device of the demon" to say "demon's evil device", so it says:

King of Darkness… The man who took the Trident, the demon's evil device (ja-ki) resurrected from ancient times!!

It doesn't invalidate your interpretation, but it's not concrete.


The quote still describes the Trident as belonging to a demon, correct? No matter how you look at it, I think it does. Which means Ganon owned the Trident at a previous time.

#14 Raien

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 01:48 PM

This is simply not true. Find me one quote, (besides the one I presented above in my argument) that references Ganon as the King of Darkness or how he supposedly "transformed into" the King of Darkness. If you could find a quote I missed I might consider this reason as a valid objection.


I have it:

...the Triforce grants the wish of the one who touched it. As long as that person is alive... That, surely, is why it was placed in the sacred land, and its location passed down only among those chosen. However, it looks as though that was interrupted somewhere...
Then, the one who again discovered the sacred land was the thief called Ganondorf. But, thankfully, he didn't know how to return to the World of Light. ...oh yes, I remembered.

...

The only one who can defeat Ganondorf the thief... no, Ganon the Demon King of Darkness, is you... I am praying.


The only timeline importance I can gather from this quotation is that it proves FSA is not the IW, because Ganon in FSA lost his humanity before he could potentially find the Triforce.


The quote still describes the Trident as belonging to a demon, correct? No matter how you look at it, I think it does. Which means Ganon owned the Trident at a previous time.


A demon might have owned the Trident at a previous time, but it might not be Ganon and it doesn't prove there is a demon spirit within the Trident.

Furthermore, Jumbie suggests a third interpretation that "a demon's device" means "a device to be wielded by demons", which potentially refutes a demon back story to the Trident. But as I said, it's ambiguous.

Edited by jhurvid, 21 April 2008 - 01:55 PM.


#15 Raien

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 01:52 PM

IGNORE.

Edited by jhurvid, 21 April 2008 - 01:55 PM.


#16 NM87

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 01:59 PM

I have it:

...the Triforce grants the wish of the one who touched it. As long as that person is alive... That, surely, is why it was placed in the sacred land, and its location passed down only among those chosen. However, it looks as though that was interrupted somewhere...
Then, the one who again discovered the sacred land was the thief called Ganondorf. But, thankfully, he didn't know how to return to the World of Light. ...oh yes, I remembered.

...

The only one who can defeat Ganondorf the thief... no, Ganon the Demon King of Darkness, is you... I am praying.


The only timeline importance I can gather from this quotation is that it proves FSA is not the IW, because Ganon in FSA lost his humanity before he could potentially find the Triforce.


No jhurvid, that is the quote that I had already used in my argument. In no way does it explain that Ganon transformed into the King of Darkness, she only calls him the Demon King of Darkness. I would be careful because this can totally prove my theory anyway. If ALTTP is refrencing Ganon's transformation into the King of Darkness when he entered the SR and touched the Triforce, then how can he turn into the King of Darkness tiwce if he supposedly became the King of Darkness already in FSA?

In addition, ALTTP clearly states in all other quotations that Ganon became the King of Evil upon touching the Triforce, not the King of Darkness. The quote you provided doesn't say anything about him transforming into the King of Darkness from touching the Triforce.

How can the maiden be referencing the event of Ganon entering the SR and touching the Triforce where he becomes the King of Darkness if the entire rest of the game references that same event as him becoming the King of Evil?

#17 Raien

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 02:03 PM

King of Darkness is the same thing as the King of Evil; there's no differentiation in the Japanese script.

ALTTP's back story begins with the thief Ganondorf enterring the Sacred Realm and taking the Triforce, which transforms him into the King of Darkness. If FSA contradicts this, it is because it is a completely different Ganon unrelated to ALTTP's Ganon.

Edited by jhurvid, 21 April 2008 - 02:03 PM.


#18 NM87

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 02:03 PM

A demon might have owned the Trident at a previous time, but it might not be Ganon and it doesn't prove there is a demon spirit within the Trident.

Furthermore, Jumbie suggests a third interpretation that "a demon's device" means "a device to be wielded by demons", which potentially refutes a demon back story to the Trident. But as I said, it's ambiguous.


You just tried to tell me that Ganon became the King of Darkness upon entering the SR and touching the Triforce, so how many King of Darkness' do you think there are?

Pick a side, Ganon became the King of Darkness in ALTTP or FSA.

So if there are three interpretations of the quote and none are wrong, how can you use it as an objection to my argument?

#19 NM87

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 02:05 PM

King of Darkness is the same thing as the King of Evil; there's no differentiation in the Japanese script.

ALTTP's back story begins with the thief Ganondorf enterring the Sacred Realm and taking the Triforce, which transforms him into the King of Darkness. If FSA contradicts this, it is because it is a completely different Ganon unrelated to ALTTP's Ganon.


So I'm wondering why Ganon has a Trident in ALTTP. I'm not sure if King of Darkness is the same as King of Evil in ALTTP, look at the ALTTP Manual comparison table on ZeldaLegends.net.

#20 Raien

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 02:11 PM

You just tried to tell me that Ganon became the King of Darkness upon entering the SR and touching the Triforce, so how many King of Darkness' do you think there are?

Pick a side, Ganon became the King of Darkness in ALTTP or FSA.


Ganondorf became the King of Darkness in OoT as well (Japanese script), so it's obvious that the title is not permanent.

Ganondorf becomes the King of Darkness in OoT when he takes the Triforce of Power.
Ganondorf becomes the King of Darkness in ALTTP when he takes the Triforce.
Ganondorf becomes the King of Darkness in FSA when he takes the Trident.

So if there are three interpretations of the quote and none are wrong, how can you use it as an objection to my argument?


Do you remember how you said Impossible should not pass FSA>ALTTP as absolutely correct if the evidence is doubtful? Well, I'm basically applying the same to your statement about the Trident. If there are three valid interpretations, you can't say one must be correct.

So I'm wondering why Ganon has a Trident in ALTTP. I'm not sure if King of Darkness is the same as King of Evil in ALTTP, look at the ALTTP Manual comparison table on ZeldaLegends.net.


King of Darkness is the same as King of Evil; Jumbie confirmed this. As for why Ganon has a Trident in ALTTP, I don't claim to know. Perhaps it's related to FSA, perhaps it isn't.

#21 NM87

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 02:31 PM

jhurvid-

So, you are saying that we now know that King of Darkness and King of Evil are the same? Interesting, clears a lot of things up. I guess as long as we put all our faith in the translator, who seems to be doing a good job.

This brings me to a new idea. You said that the Trident itself could be resurrected, so I still ask, from what? In the sense that FSA is before ALTTP, what would the Trident be resurrected from? This only supports the notion that it is being resurrected from ALTTP when it belonged to the Ganon from ALTTP.

You also state that there Ganondrof becomes the King of Darkness in those instances. I think that the original Ganondorf became the Ganon we know. In my threoy its perfectly possible for it to be the same Ganon from TP to OOX, in which a new Ganondorf finally awakens the old Ganon. By placing FSA before the IW you indicate there are multiple Ganons, an assumption based only on the theory itself that there are multiple Ganons.

I understand that there isn't just one correct interpretation, but in all instances, something is being resurrected. Thats the pint of placing FSA after ALTTP, whether it be at the end, before LOZ, before OOX etc.. Placing it at the end makes the most sense because you don't need to explain how Ganon escapes the FS. To me anyway...

#22 Jumbie

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 03:32 PM

So, you are saying that we now know that King of Darkness and King of Evil are the same? Interesting, clears a lot of things up. I guess as long as we put all our faith in the translator, who seems to be doing a good job.

Wait, I've got to clear this up. Jhurvid seems to be mistaken. (Btw, thanks^^)
"Evil King" is the NoA translation for "Demon King", whereas "King of Darkness" does appear in both the US and Japanese versions. They do differentiate them, and in a few instances, FSA and ALttP actually merge those two titles to one: Demon King of Darkness.
In addition, the Japanese manuals of ALttP and LA call Ganon "King of Evil" instead of "Demon King" (though the games themselves never do).

LoZ manual:魔王 (Dai Maou) = Great Demon King
AoL manual: ---
ALttP manual: 邪悪の王 (Jaaku no Ou) = King of Evil
ALttP in-game: 闇の魔王 (Yami no Maou) = Demon King of Darkness
LA manual: 邪悪の王 (Jaaku no Ou) = King of Evil
OoT: [大]魔王 ([Dai] Maou) = [Great] Demon King
FSA: 闇の魔王 (Yami no Maou) = Demon King of Darkness
闇の王 (Yami no Ou) = King of Darkness
TP:魔王 (Dai Maou) = Great Demon King


You said that the Trident itself could be resurrected, so I still ask, from what?

From its age-long slumber in the pyramid.
The Japanese word for "resurrected" may actually be exchanged for "revived", "reactivated" or even "brought back".
It's a different word from the one used for Vaati's revival in FSA's intro, the latter of which has much stronger connotations of "back to life".

This only supports the notion that it is being resurrected from ALTTP when it belonged to the Ganon from ALTTP.

That was what I always hoped for, too, but FSA doesn't state it.

Placing it at the end makes the most sense because you don't need to explain how Ganon escapes the FS.

This question is actually among the easiest ones to explain, as it is self-explaining. We have precedent that Vaati escaped the Four Sword by nothing but the passing of a long time, so Ganon is bound to eventually escape it, too. When that happens, the Four Sword will likely have lost its power, and will thus revert to its White Sword form that it had during TMC. Since the White Sword also appears in LoZ, the connection is made. That'd also explain where Ganon appears from in LoZ.

Edited by Jumbie, 21 April 2008 - 06:08 PM.


#23 Raien

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 03:37 PM

This brings me to a new idea. You said that the Trident itself could be resurrected, so I still ask, from what? In the sense that FSA is before ALTTP, what would the Trident be resurrected from? This only supports the notion that it is being resurrected from ALTTP when it belonged to the Ganon from ALTTP.


It could be resurrected from the bowels of the Pyramid, where it was sealed. Just like one might say "The Titanic was resurrected from the ocean floor."

#24 LionHarted

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 05:49 PM

On the point of multiple Ganons:

OoT Ganondorf is a Gerudo King who invaded Hyrule, entered the Sacred Realm, and stole the Triforce of Power, becoming Ganon.
He dies in TWW.
He dies in TP.

FSA Ganondorf is a Gerudo guardian who invaded Hyrule and stole the Trident, becoming Ganon. He is not OoT Ganondorf. It is possible that the taking of the Trident revived a previous Ganon.
He is sealed in the Four Sword.

ALttP Ganondorf is a thief who invaded Hyrule and stole the Triforce. ALttP Ganon has the Trident.
He dies in ALttP

LoZ Ganon is not said to be connected to an incarnation of Ganondorf. He more than likely used the Trident.
He dies in LoZ.

Oracles Ganon is referred to as having been a Gerudo King. He has a Trident. He was revived, presumably from death.
He dies in Oracles.

:::

Ganondorf in FSA is clearly not Ganondorf from OoT in the Child Timeline prior to being captured by the sages.

If we go by the original manual, assuming the IW Ganondorf to be ALttP Ganondorf, he became Ganon when he stole the Triforce. If we assume that OoT Ganondorf is IW Ganondorf, it is more ambiguous, with ALttP Ganondorf becoming Ganon through an unmentioned means. Therefore he could be the demon incarnation of FSA Ganondorf or a completely different Ganondorf who became Ganon by taking the Triforce. He cannot be the Ganondorf from OoT, who has already died in both timelines.

LoZ Ganon has an altogether hanging origin. He could be Ganon from FSA (coming before or after FSA) or Ganon from Oracles (coming before Oracles). It is unlikely that he is Ganon from ALttP. We cannot assume his origins lie in revival. Ganon is, however, referred to as the character constantly threatening Hyrule in ALttP, implying that LoZ Ganon may be ALttP Ganon, although ALttP Ganon has died. Personally the easiest way I see to reconcile this is to have LoZ before FSA, with FSA's Ganondorf reviving Ganon from LoZ, and ALttP Ganon being this same Ganondorf. This could also be reversed, with ALttP before FSA, and LoZ's Ganon having escaped the Four Sword after FSA. In any case, no game ends with Ganon in a state remotely comparable to his status in LoZ, and the question of which game Ganon escaped the Four Sword before is up in the air. He cannot be related to the Ganondorf from OoT, who has already died in both timelines.

:::

There are at least two incarnations of Ganondorf, and at least three incarnations of Ganon ("incarnation" referring to "origin"--either LoZ as a standalone or to an instance in which a particular incarnation of Ganondorf becomes Ganon for the first time).

The incarnation of Ganon seen in OoT is restricted to TP and TWW.
OoT/TP
OoT/TWW
The incarnation of Ganon seen in FSA could be related to either the incarnation of Ganon in ALttP or in LoZ
FSA/ALttP
OR
FSA/LoZ
The incarnation of Ganon seen in FSA could be a revival of either the incarnation of Ganon in ALttP or in LoZ
ALttP-FSA
OR
LoZ-FSA
The incarnation of Ganon in either ALttP or LoZ must stand alone (although either could be revived in FSA, as stated above)
The incarnation of Ganon seen in Oracles is a revival of any of the dead incarnations of Ganon (most likely LoZ or ALttP)

:::

So the Ganon timeline, assuming OoT is first, could go like this, on either timeline, with Oracles placed after any Ganon-death (mine is bolded and underlined, yours is underlined, the typical one is bolded):

OoT-FSA/ALttP-LoZ
OoT-FSA/LoZ-ALttP
OoT-ALttP-FSA/LoZ
OoT-LoZ-FSA/ALttP
OoT-LoZ/FSA-ALttP
OoT-ALttP/FSA-LoZ
OoT-ALttP-LoZ-FSA
OoT-LoZ-ALttP-FSA

The only real plothole for either my or the typical Ganon timeline is LoZ, which is a plothole by nature. For some reason you opt for the second to last, even though it is one of the ones with the most plotholes (i.e., unrelated Ganon incarnations). Odd, considering you apparently don't advocate multiple Ganons.

Edited by LionHarted, 21 April 2008 - 08:40 PM.


#25 NM87

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 01:25 PM

Hello Jumbie, I appreciate your assistance in clearing this up! I also like your reasoning of placing FSA before LOZ. I don’t think there is anything wrong placing FSA before LOZ, as there is pretty much nothing stopping it from being placed there, with your current explanation. So good job on that too! Any placement of FSA after ALTTP is fine, because of the statement below.

-Jumbie & juhurvid

Now, from what I gather, the Japanese word for resurrected can translate into revived/reactivated/brought back. Each of these meanings still indicates the Trident has been used before. Something cannot be revived if it hadn't been killed previously. Something cannot be reactivated if it wasn't previously in use before. Something cannot be "brought back" unless it is being "brought back" from something or somewhere. Claiming that the Trident is being revived/reactivated/brought back from its "slumber" in the pyramid doesn't make sense because if FSA was the first time someone obtained the Trident then you wouldn't have the -ed attached to the word activate and revive.

I understand the argument you will make in response. You are going to claim that whoever put the Trident there had created it, with all of its power intact, and then hid it away in the pyramid which would deactivate it. This would flow with the term “resurrected” and other related words.

The problem here would be that the Trident’s purpose is to destroy he world and send it into darkness. Whoever had created it would obviously have these intentions, if they are going to make such an artifact. Why would they simply seal it away for someone else to use?

This is even made more improbably when you look at your translations for King of Evil and Darkness. If both ALTTP and FSA call Ganon the Demon King of Darkness (DKoD) then how does Ganon become the DKoD twice? In one instance he becomes the DKoD by obtaining the Trident and in the other he becomes the DKoD by touching the Triforce.

Even if they were two different Ganons, it still would not make sense. How does the FSA Ganon become the DKoD by touching the Trident while the ALTTP Ganon becomes the DKoD by touching the Triforce? The only other piece of evidence we have where Ganondorf becomes the Demon King is OOT, where he had touched the Triforce. In conclusion, it seems to me that the only time someone can become the DKoD or Demon King is by touching the Triforce with an evil heart. Therefore, making the claim that FSA Ganondorf had become the DKoD by toughing the Trident is incorrect and inconsistent with present information.

Since Ganondorf of the IW (which does not need to be the same from OOT, but he could be, it doesn’t matter in this theory) becomes the DKoD by touching the Triforce, and we clearly see him with Trident, the only possible placement of FSA is after ALTTP where this new FSA Ganondorf can reawaken the Trident as well as the DKoD. In addition, the inscription states that the Trident is being resurrected implying it was used before, and when FSA Ganondorf reactivates the Trident turn becomes the DKoD…and who is the DKoD who used the Trident in ancient times? Ganon from the IW & ALTTP.

#26 LionHarted

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 02:20 PM

Now, from what I gather, the Japanese word for resurrected can translate into revived/reactivated/brought back. Each of these meanings still indicates the Trident has been used before.


None of them suggest it has been used by Ganon, which is where the debate arises.

This is even made more improbably when you look at your translations for King of Evil and Darkness. If both ALTTP and FSA call Ganon the Demon King of Darkness (DKoD) then how does Ganon become the DKoD twice? In one instance he becomes the DKoD by obtaining the Trident and in the other he becomes the DKoD by touching the Triforce.

Even if they were two different Ganons, it still would not make sense. How does the FSA Ganon become the DKoD by touching the Trident while the ALTTP Ganon becomes the DKoD by touching the Triforce? The only other piece of evidence we have where Ganondorf becomes the Demon King is OOT, where he had touched the Triforce. In conclusion, it seems to me that the only time someone can become the DKoD or Demon King is by touching the Triforce with an evil heart. Therefore, making the claim that FSA Ganondorf had become the DKoD by toughing the Trident is incorrect and inconsistent with present information.


The answers to these, at least in my theory, are simple.

The line proclaiming Ganon became the King of Darkness with the Triforce is found in the description of the Imprisoning War. Since the Imprisoning War was designed into a game (OoT; this is clearly the developer intent), and OoT's Ganon has been killed off in both OoT sequels (TWW and TP), we can assume that the birth of the King of Darkness by the Triforce was not the birth of the King of Darkness in ALttP. Ganondorf becomes the King of Darkness in FSA. Ganon, the King of Darkness, formerly known as Ganondorf, takes the Triforce from the Sacred Realm sometime after FSA and before ALttP.

That, and in the most recent release of ALttP, this line never even appears, and thus I would say is no longer relevant. I've constantly gotten the response that the manual story was shortened to save space, but I reject this notion outright--the storylines of the originals were clearly edited but not shortened.

#27 Raien

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 02:46 PM

Now, from what I gather, the Japanese word for resurrected can translate into revived/reactivated/brought back. Each of these meanings still indicates the Trident has been used before. Something cannot be revived if it hadn't been killed previously. Something cannot be reactivated if it wasn't previously in use before. Something cannot be "brought back" unless it is being "brought back" from something or somewhere. Claiming that the Trident is being revived/reactivated/brought back from its "slumber" in the pyramid doesn't make sense because if FSA was the first time someone obtained the Trident then you wouldn't have the -ed attached to the word activate and revive.


I'm not claiming the Trident was never used before. I'm saying that any information pertaining to the origin of the Trident is debatable; it could have been used by a demon, or an evil tribe, or a sorceror or whatever.

PS: "Brought back" would work fine in the context of the Trident not having an original use. As long as it begins outside and is sealed within the Pyramid, it can be "brought back". I repeat, this is not my argument, but it is a valid argument nonetheless.

The problem here would be that the Trident’s purpose is to destroy he world and send it into darkness. Whoever had created it would obviously have these intentions, if they are going to make such an artifact. Why would they simply seal it away for someone else to use?


Why indeed? I find it strange that the tablet does not warn people about the evil within the Trident, so much as it calls out to people to do evil with the Trident. This would suggest that the Trident was placed with the intention of someone special taking it. And out of all the Gerudo warriors who were said to have lost their lives trying to reach the Trident, someone special did take it. Ganondorf; the villain we all know and love.

This is even made more improbably when you look at your translations for King of Evil and Darkness. If both ALTTP and FSA call Ganon the Demon King of Darkness (DKoD) then how does Ganon become the DKoD twice? In one instance he becomes the DKoD by obtaining the Trident and in the other he becomes the DKoD by touching the Triforce.


What you have to understand is that the Darkness primarily comes from Ganon's heart, so all he needs is power that can reflect his evil heart to become the King of Darkness.

The only real inconsistency is that Ganon in ALTTP keeps his title in death, which allows him to revive as the King of Darkness. This doesn't happen after his death in TP/TWW, which leads me to believe that either:

a) The power of the Triforce in ALTTP allows Ganon's transformation to be permanent (this assumes FSA > ALTTP).
b) If Ganon chooses reincarnation as a means to return to Hyrule, he must immediately give up his King of Darkness title.

The notion of giving up power is alien to Ganon's character, which is why I would prefer a). On the other hand, b) would explain why Ganondorf quickly develops an evil heart in FSA.

Edited by jhurvid, 22 April 2008 - 03:23 PM.


#28 Showsni

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 03:38 PM

"King of Darkness" is, I feel, just a name. It's not some mythical being that mortals can become, it's just what people call Ganondorf occasionally. In ALttP, Ganondorf was originally just a thief; he became much more when he took the triforce, gaining enough power to threaten the world and become known as the king of darkness/evilness/badness or what have you. It's not a transformation; just a title he's given. Darkness vs. Evil is all semantics; it doesn't make a difference.

And I naturally put FSA after ALttP, as I put ALttP first. In my theory, LoZ Ganon is FSA Ganon who's escaped somehow, and the trident is presumably passed down by ALttP Ganon.

Edited by Showsni, 22 April 2008 - 03:39 PM.


#29 NM87

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 11:48 AM

OoT Ganondorf is a Gerudo King who invaded Hyrule, entered the Sacred Realm, and stole the Triforce of Power, becoming Ganon.
He dies in TWW.
He dies in TP.

FSA Ganondorf is a Gerudo guardian who invaded Hyrule and stole the Trident, becoming Ganon. He is not OoT Ganondorf. It is possible that the taking of the Trident revived a previous Ganon.
He is sealed in the Four Sword.

ALttP Ganondorf is a thief who invaded Hyrule and stole the Triforce. ALttP Ganon has the Trident.
He dies in ALttP

LoZ Ganon is not said to be connected to an incarnation of Ganondorf. He more than likely used the Trident.
He dies in LoZ.

Oracles Ganon is referred to as having been a Gerudo King. He has a Trident. He was revived, presumably from death.
He dies in Oracles.


Although it does not matter whether or not Ganondorf died in TP or WW, we can not say for certain that he did. He may have "died" in a physical sense but Ganon can never truly die, as there are always ways to resurrect him from the World of Spirits. He can be revived, called back by anguish or reawakened. So to say that Ganon "died" in all of those games isn't exactly true, he isn't dead for good. Its very possible it can still be the same Ganon from TP until the close of the timeline, but if you like it doesn' need to be from TP. I could just be from ALTTP-FSA-LOZ.

Ganondorf in FSA is clearly not Ganondorf from OoT in the Child Timeline prior to being captured by the sages.

If we go by the original manual, assuming the IW Ganondorf to be ALttP Ganondorf, he became Ganon when he stole the Triforce. If we assume that OoT Ganondorf is IW Ganondorf, it is more ambiguous, with ALttP Ganondorf becoming Ganon through an unmentioned means. Therefore he could be the demon incarnation of FSA Ganondorf or a completely different Ganondorf who became Ganon by taking the Triforce. He cannot be the Ganondorf from OoT, who has already died in both timelines.


This is only true if You believe that there is one single timeline. OOT Ganon went on to become WW Ganon and TP Ganon respectively. WW Ganon is OOT Ganon, but TP is the OOT Ganon that never entered the SR. TP Ganon never amounted to anything, he was never titled "King" of anything, therefore he cannot be the Demon King of Darkness rebron in FSA because there was never a DKoD before FSA if you place it before ALTTP. ALTTP tells the sory of how the DKoD came to be, so how can Ganon become the DKoD twice, or be reborn as the DKoD before having become the DKoD? Also, ALTTP states Ganon became the DKoD by touching the Triforce, so if it were two different Ganons, how come in FSA Ganondorf becomes the DKoD by touching the Triden, but a totally seperate Ganondorf becomes the same thing by ouching the Triforce? Illogical.

Continued...

#30 Raien

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 12:48 PM

TP Ganon never amounted to anything, he was never titled "King" of anything, therefore he cannot be the Demon King of Darkness rebron in FSA because there was never a DKoD before FSA if you place it before ALTTP.


You don't need to stick so closely to the text. If Ganondorf has the same magical power and the same role as a leader of demons, then he's quite obviously the King of Darkness with or without a referenced title.

Edited by Raian, 26 April 2008 - 12:48 PM.





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