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#271 CID Farwin

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 11:27 PM

And here I thought Hylians came from chicken-people(NoA TP), not rabbits...

#272 Jumbie

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 12:49 PM

Here's the passage in FSA that calls Ganondorf a desert nomad. Indeed, the original word is not "nomad", they confused that Kanji with a similar one meaning "priest". But see yourself.

The Red Maiden about Ganondorf:

ガノン? その者の名は 聞きおぼえがあります?。たしか ガノンドロフという?。
Ganon? I remember hearing that name before... Ganondorf from the legends?

Ganon? I've heard that name before. No, wait? It was Ganondorf?

?いえ、しかし その男は ゲルド族の生まれ。
?Originally a Gerudo, he came to be feared as the demon king.

But, no... That man was of the Gerudo tribe.

魔物が その男を あがめるなどと いうことは 考えられません。
He once invaded the land assisted by a dark priest who worshipped him.

I can't imagine these creatures worshipping some desert nomad.

?砂漠(さばく)に ゲルド族の村があります。
?There's a Gerudo village in the desert.

There's a Gerudo village in the desert.

まさかとは思いますが たずねてみても いいでしょう。
They know all about him, so you should make sure to ask there.

I doubt there is any connection, but it cannot hurt to check the village.

その先には いにしえの昔より ピラミッドがあります。
Beyond the village lies an ancient pyramid keeping his remains.

Beyond the village lie ruins and an ancient pyramid.

あまりに古きところゆえ、だれもくわしく知る者はありません。
It is very old, but still remembered as the resting place of the dead demon's soul.

They are so old that no living creature knows very much about them.

かつてピラミッドに足を踏み入れ 戻った者は ひとりもいないのです。
No one who sets foot in the pyramid ever returns.

All I can tell you is that no one who sets foot in the pyramid ever returns.

そこに巫女が いるとしたら?。
Assuming a shrine maiden is in there, she might turn into a new servant of evil?

If one of the maidens is there, I fear for her safety.


Notes:
I think the text speaks for itself. It is subtly implied that FSA follows some time after ALttP, I'd say.
The reason was that a few Kanji with really complex meanings were confused, leading to fatal mistakes, but that is cleared up now.^^
It only makes me wonder which interesting things the Gerudo have to tell in the Japanese version...

#273 Mourngriever

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 12:54 PM

Well, i must say. I'm a bit shocked now. For years, we have been putting it as ALTTP's prequel. Unless its foreshadowing Zant...no, must be Aghanim.

Or your a git and doing an April Fools

#274 Raien

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 01:11 PM

EDIT: ****. It's April Fool's Day, isn't it?

I hate myself...

Edited by jhurvid, 01 April 2008 - 01:13 PM.


#275 LionHarted

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 01:22 PM

EDIT: ****. It's April Fool's Day, isn't it?

I hate myself...

That was honestly my first reaction, especially given the topics of conversation recently. XD

#276 Raien

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 01:25 PM

That was honestly my first reaction, especially given the topics of conversation recently. XD


Lol. I wonder how you would have reacted if it were true...

#277 Malu CLBS

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 01:35 PM

LOL XD Indeed it is an April Fool's joke. It really says what the NOA translation states. EXCEPT that it says man (男), not desert nomad.

I really didn't expect that, 'cause you guys are always discussing so seriously :lol:

@CID: Jumbie recently posted the Japanese text about what Shad says, and it was a mistranslation. The original Japanese text implied that the Oocca only created the land, not its inhabitants, if I recall correctly.

@Impossible: Do you have any links to the debates of ALttP and Oracles Link not being the same? I'd like to read that.

Edited by Malu CLBS, 01 April 2008 - 01:40 PM.


#278 FDL

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 03:38 PM

Okay, that was awesome Jumbie. Best April Fool's prank I've seen so far today.

#279 Jumbie

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 04:00 PM

Okay, that was awesome Jumbie. Best April Fool's prank I've seen so far today.

Yay! ^.^

I really didn't expect that, 'cause you guys are always discussing so seriously :lol:

Hehe, not today. There's nothing I love more than 1st of April :)
The idea came to me on the fly, I was originally just going to post the real translation. Then I thought, why not invest 5 minutes in spreading some joy?

The Japanese LA makes it perfectly possible for Oracles to go before it


Keep in mind that ALttP and Oracles Link definitely CANNOT be the same, for many reasons that have been discussed in the past.

Did you ever hear me claim it was the same Link in ALttP and Oracles? Of course they cannot be, because of Princess Zelda not knowing Link.

The idea is just that ALttP Link never travelled to Koholint Island. Sure, from AST we know that ALttP Link did embark on a journey. But nothing obliges us to say this journey brought him to Koholint. The Links of OoT, TWW, and TP have each set out on their personal journeys after their adventures, so why cannot OoX Link's boat trip lead into LA (as Capcom was trying to communicate to us).

And here I thought Hylians came from chicken-people(NoA TP), not rabbits...

The funny thing is, the marathon man calls rabbits the animals of legend, while in TP, Midna calls wolves the animals of legend - and Link has actually transformed into both because he is the Hero of Legend!
Also, the associating of bunny ears with Hylian ears might explain why Link turned into a bunny when the Triforce reflected his true nature...


Anyway, although Malu already revealed it, I'm handing in the actual translation for completeness sake:

Red Maiden about Ganondorf:

ガノン? その者の名は 聞きおぼえがあります?。たしか ガノンドロフという?。
Ganon? I remember hearing that name before? To be correct, it was Ganondorf?

Ganon? I've heard that name before. No, wait? It was Ganondorf?

?いえ、しかし その男は ゲルド族の生まれ。
?But no, that man was of the Gerudo tribe.

But, no... That man was of the Gerudo tribe.

魔物が その男を あがめるなどと いうことは 考えられません。
I don't think the creatures would actually worship that man.

I can't imagine these creatures worshipping some desert nomad.

?砂漠(さばく)に ゲルド族の村があります。
?There's a Gerudo village in the desert.

There's a Gerudo village in the desert.

まさかとは思いますが たずねてみても いいでしょう。
I'd never think so, but it cannot hurt to ask.

I doubt there is any connection, but it cannot hurt to check the village.

その先には いにしえの昔より ピラミッドがあります。
Beyond lies a pyramid since ancient times.

Beyond the village lie ruins and an ancient pyramid.

あまりに古きところゆえ、だれもくわしく知る者はありません。
That place is too old for anyone to know very much about it.

They are so old that no living creature knows very much about them.

かつてピラミッドに足を踏み入れ 戻った者は ひとりもいないのです。
No one who sets foot in the pyramid ever returns.

All I can tell you is that no one who sets foot in the pyramid ever returns.

そこに巫女が いるとしたら?。
Assuming a shrine maiden is in there?

If one of the maidens is there, I fear for her safety.

And well, this time there's really nothing to add.

Edited by Jumbie, 01 April 2008 - 04:02 PM.


#280 Showsni

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 04:39 PM

The OoT line is probably a subtle reference to ALttP, in fact; an Easter Egg, if you will.

#281 Hero of Legend

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 05:23 PM

The funny thing is, the marathon man calls rabbits the animals of legend, while in TP, Midna calls wolves the animals of legend - and Link has actually transformed into both because he is the Hero of Legend!

Well technically he has never been given that title, so I'm still the Hero of Legend. Technically.

...Yeah, I'm back, and humbled, and stuff. Fine work with these translations, I'll say.

Also, the associating of bunny ears with Hylian ears might explain why Link turned into a bunny when the Triforce reflected his true nature...

I'd say Showsni is right in that it is a reference to ALttP, though it seems the Hylians of OoT are confused as to the nature of their connection to the gods and think that any animal with long(er) ears must 'hear the their voices' better. I still withhold that the gods only speak to the Hylians when they wish to, and that they don't always use "words" when they do which explains, well everything, but that may be another discussion.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 01 April 2008 - 05:28 PM.


#282 Impossible

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 08:04 PM

Dammit, I didn't see that translation until now, so I was kind of thinking "holy shit, how did they get it so wrong?" for a moment, before it became obvious.

Sure, from AST we know that ALttP Link did embark on a journey. But nothing obliges us to say this journey brought him to Koholint.


There's a line I found on Zelda Katsu about the hero being unable to escape the dream. And it's still basically canon that LA is a sequel to ALttP, the evidence that this changes isn't really strong enough. And it's obvious that the intent was for LA to be after ALttP. I don't think Capcom even felt themselves entitled to fuck with the original intent of the games, and the Oracles were always meant to be an independent story separate from Nintendo's.

I mainly wanted that translation because I was hoping we would learn something from the first two lines about Ganondorf, but oh well, it's nice to have that cleared up. Dammit, whenever I ask for something from FSA, we end up learning nothing from it! Can't NoA have missed something that would result in new evidence, for a change? >_< I don't care what kind of evidence, I just like having something new in a time with no new Zelda game. (The first year since 1999 without one...) Hopefully the mirror talk will be more enlightening.

I don't know how much the Oracles have been discussed here. But I do have a very abridged list of contradictions with ALttP Link:

1. Zelda introduces herself to Link when they meet, as they haven’t met before. Link and Zelda did meet in ALttP, so this is a new Link and Zelda who weren’t in any other games. Impa didn’t know who he was either, but ALttP Link was a hero to Hyrule.
2. LA’s manual says that Link voluntarily set off on a journey from Hyrule to train, but in the beginning of either Oracle game, Link is IN Hyrule, and is sent to Holodrum or Labrynna by the Triforce. He doesn’t know that he’s going on a quest.
3. Link in the Oracles is a kid, like Child Link in OoT and MM. In ALttP and LA, he’s a teenager, and is clearly older, based on the cutscenes in all the Game Boy Zeldas, and official art. His age couldn’t just jump around like that.
4. Oracle Link has a Triforce mark on his hand, but it’s not there in ALttP or in LA. Like his age, it would have to change back and forth.
5. Impa says that Link is a fated hero because he has a Triforce mark on his hand. ALttP Link already saved Hyrule, and wouldn’t need a mark to show that he’s a hero.
6. The boat Link sails off on isn’t really the same as the one in LA anyway, and you would think it would be if the connection were deliberate. The body of the boat itself may have been reused from LA to save effort, but the sails are completely different.

2, 3 and 4 still apply to separating ALttP from LA, which I don't believe we should do anyway.

Edited by Impossible, 02 April 2008 - 08:49 PM.


#283 Hero of Legend

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 06:13 AM

There's a line I found on Zelda Katsu about the hero being unable to escape the dream. And it's still basically canon that LA is a sequel to ALttP, the evidence that this changes isn't really strong enough. And it's obvious that the intent was for LA to be after ALttP. I don't think Capcom even felt themselves entitled to fuck with the original intent of the games, and the Oracles were always meant to be an independent story separate from Nintendo's.

And what's the basis of this, hmm? Sure the evidence is strong enough* - stronger than anything in ALttP at least. And whatever Capcom felt, we do not know (except they love retconning stuff) but that doesn't matter because the games were developed by Flagship - the same team that went on to make TMC and PH; surely canonical entries in the story.

*1, 2, 3, 5: That's because it's a new Link - No connection to ALttP. Like it or not, but it?s not a problem with the theory.
4. Well, that's no problem either, because it's not always on his hand in the Oracles. But he does posses those powers of strength, courage and wisdom spoken of in LA.
6. This is sort of like the Kokiri Sword in MM - new design choices don't mean much.

Anyway, why does it feel like I've been over this before?

Dammit, whenever I ask for something from FSA, we end up learning nothing from it! Can't NoA have missed something that would result in new evidence, for a change?

Well... I'm rather curious as to the words spoken after Vaati's defeat, and before the final battle.

*Zelda*

Link!

You've defeated the wind sorcerer Vaati.

...!

This palace was built on the power of Vaati's magical strength.

With its master gone, it can no longer retain its form.

We can't stay here any longer! We must escape to the Tower of Winds!

*Ganon*

...

This was all there was to the wind sorcerer Vaati, eh?

Before the Four Sword, you were at your wit's ends.

Useless cur!

I did not steal enough power from the Hyruleans.

My blood boils, heroes! It seethes at the sight of you!

I thirst for destruction! For the pure release of rage, the power of wrath!

Four Sword or no, my trident will reduce you to nothingness!

I'm waiting, you worms!


And:

*Zelda*

What? That raw patch of darkness, deeper than the blackest night...

Is... Is that Vaati?

No, it's not the wind sorcerer...

No matter, I must use my power to seal it away!

*???*

Can't breathe... My strength is failing me...

The very air around me is growing thin... dying...

I only need a bit...more power...

MORE!!

*Ganon*

Enough!

The princess of Hyrule and all her power amounts to nothing!

Zelda! I, Ganon, now seal you away forever!


Basically, I want to know if Vaati "died" or not (didn't seem like it) and who says the *???* lines. People say it's Zelda, but I don't think so. It could tell us a bit of where Zelda and Ganon stand in relation to each other. So, when Jumbie has time, he could look into it.

#284 Raien

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 06:28 AM

Actually, Flagship did not develop PH; the FSA developers did.

And I think it's Zelda who says the "???" lines because she refers to needing more power, to which Ganon responds that Zelda's power is nothing.

#285 Impossible

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 06:44 AM

*1, 2, 3, 5: That's because it's a new Link - No connection to ALttP. Like it or not, but it?s not a problem with the theory.


3 still applies if you consider that Link looks completely different. You'd have to assume YEARS pass between OoS/OoA and LA. While Link looks pretty much the same between ALttP and LA. Which has something to do with that being the same Link, and only months having passed. What evidence is there that things should be so completely different?

4. Well, that's no problem either, because it's not always on his hand in the Oracles. But he does posses those powers of strength, courage and wisdom spoken of in LA.


When isn't it on his hand in the Oracles? I don't recall it ever disappearing. He should still have it if it's the same Link in LA.

6. This is sort of like the Kokiri Sword in MM - new design choices don't mean much.


This is the ONLY evidence connecting the Oracles to LA, so it shouldn't be questionable at ALL if we're going to base a placement of it. And I say it means very little against the original intent. The Oracles fit perfectly after AoL - absolutely no flaws, and there's evidence in favour of it. And we know LA should be a sequel to ALttP. You can say all you want that the web site is outdated, and the Japanese manual being less clear about ALttP references supersedes it... But that's bullshit. The website was written more recently than the manual, which is even more "outdated". The fact is, nothing has changed. You need a hell of a good reason to retcon something, and the Oracles do not provide that reason because it's not necessary at all. Even KnS's LA references are stronger than the Oracles'.

#286 Mourngriever

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 08:07 AM

Oracles link has to be a new Link. Not a hero and not knowing Zelda.

#287 Hero of Legend

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 09:06 AM

Actually, Flagship did not develop PH; the FSA developers did.

Yes, but the Nintendo employes from Flagship went to work with the new team; the lead scriptwriter and assistant director in particular should be noted as two important figures who worked on both PH and Flagship's games.

And I think it's Zelda who says the "???" lines because she refers to needing more power, to which Ganon responds that Zelda's power is nothing.

You said the same thing a year ago, and I still say it was Ganon who needed power. I'd rather wait for Jumbie than to get into that again, if I can.

3 still applies if you consider that Link looks completely different. You'd have to assume YEARS pass between OoS/OoA and LA. While Link looks pretty much the same between ALttP and LA. Which has something to do with that being the same Link, and only months having passed. What evidence is there that things should be so completely different?

I agree, that is a concern, yet I never thought there was any huge difference between the two. Link does look younger in the Oracles, but I wager most of the differences are artistic, and besides, how are we to say how long Link spent at sea? Just a page ago, Jumbie posted about the manual: "One day, when your training in foreign countries was over, you were on your way sailing back to beloved Hyrule." Nothing about only "months passing" in the Japanese version that I can see...

When isn't it on his hand in the Oracles? I don't recall it ever disappearing. He should still have it if it's the same Link in LA.


Posted Image

Posted Image

Just a few examples...

This is the ONLY evidence connecting the Oracles to LA, so it shouldn't be questionable at ALL if we're going to base a placement of it.

Where is the evidence that connects LA to ALttP? I can think of none that is not pressent in the Oracles. And you forgot the mention of the exact same powers being possessed by Link in both games.

The Oracles fit perfectly after AoL - absolutely no flaws, and there's evidence in favour of it.

And what might that be?

And we know LA should be a sequel to ALttP.

Well, that was the original intent, yes.

You can say all you want that the web site is outdated, and the Japanese manual being less clear about ALttP references supersedes it... But that's bullshit. The website was written more recently than the manual, which is even more "outdated". The fact is, nothing has changed. You need a hell of a good reason to retcon something, and the Oracles do not provide that reason because it's not necessary at all. Even KnS's LA references are stronger than the Oracles'.

Is that so? I would have thought a retcon, by its very nature, did not need to make sense with previous material. I know that if new info is released, I accept it, even if it's just a scene in the ending. Right now, you are no different from the people that cover their ears and yell "Ahhh! I'm not listening!" when told something that doesn't tickle their fancy. For now it is my judgment that the Oracles were meant as a prequel to LA, but that the game could work after ALttP as well. I don?t claim either theory to be absolute fact. Neither should you.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 03 April 2008 - 10:14 AM.


#288 Raien

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 09:56 AM

You said the same thing a year ago, and I still say it was who Ganon needed power. I'd rather wait for Jumbie than to get into that again, if I can.


Ha. I can't remember that far back. Alright then, we'll see if Jumbie can make it clearer.

EDIT: Actually, I would like to say that "the air is dying" is something that I would have thought Ganon would be bringing about, since I associate such an action with evil. In which case, I use that also to support the comment being made by Zelda.

Edited by jhurvid, 03 April 2008 - 09:58 AM.


#289 Hero of Legend

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 10:11 AM

Well, if it was Ganon doing the talking, he probably didn't feel very comfortable being sealed away inside Zelda's sphere of light, so I wouldn't put that expression above him. On the other hand, Zelda has never been one to cry out for power. But I guess it could go either way.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 03 April 2008 - 10:15 AM.


#290 Raien

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 10:19 AM

Well, if it was Ganon doing the talking, he probably didn't feel very comfortable being sealed away inside Zelda's sphere of light, so I wouldn't put that expression above him. On the other hand, Zelda has never been one to cry out for power. But I guess it could go either way.


Zelda is the only character referred to using power in the quotation you provided. She said she needed power to seal the Darkness and Ganon later said her power was useless. I'm deriving a connection based on that, but I can see where you're coming from. This is really a debate of interpretation, as opposed to the evidence overwhelmingly supporting one conclusion over another.

Edited by jhurvid, 03 April 2008 - 10:31 AM.


#291 LionHarted

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 11:08 AM

The lines known to be spoken by Ganon make no sense if the *???* lines are also spoken by Ganon.

#292 Fyxe

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 11:20 AM

I don?t claim either theory to be absolute fact. Neither should you.

I'm not trying to take sides here, but the difference is that he has evidence from an official source (the Japanese Nintendo website) that does appear to claim it as absolute fact. Now, while the canonicity of Nintendo websites could be debated, it's pretty well known that the Japanese Nintendo website is a common and authorative place to find out storyline details about various series, direct interviews from the creators, and backstory that isn't even mentioned within the games. I think you'd be hard pressed to find information on the Japanese Nintendo websites that was blatantly incorrect.

So while you may believe otherwise, he has evidence (that and the fact that various information at the time of release proclaimed it as a sequel) and official art that backs him up. You have a hunch based on an ending. Technically, I could claim that TP leads into the Oracle games, because Link begins the games by riding on a horse and ended TP in the game way. Or indeed that Majora's Mask leads into the Oracle games for the same reason, especially considering that the Oracle games were the first Zeldas released after MM.

While obviously the Oracle ending leading into LA is more plausible, that doesn't make it more accurate.

#293 Duke Serkol

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 11:25 AM

Sure, from AST we know that ALttP Link did embark on a journey. But nothing obliges us to say this journey brought him to Koholint.

There's a line I found on Zelda Katsu about the hero being unable to escape the dream.


how are we to say how long Link spent at sea? Just a page ago, Jumbie posted about the manual: "One day, when your training in foreign countries was over, you were on your way sailing back to beloved Hyrule." Nothing about only "months passing" in the Japanese version that I can see...

And that's a good thing... because AST happens six years after ALttP.

#294 Fyxe

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 11:28 AM

And that's a good thing... because AST happens six years after ALttP.

Now this is new t'me. @.@ Where was this information gleaned from?

#295 Hero of Legend

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 01:09 PM

The lines known to be spoken by Ganon make no sense if the *???* lines are also spoken by Ganon.

Not if by "Enough!" he means simply that he has enough power to break free of Zelda's spell.

I'm not trying to take sides here, but the difference is that he has evidence from an official source (the Japanese Nintendo website) that does appear to claim it as absolute fact. Now, while the canonicity of Nintendo websites could be debated, it's pretty well known that the Japanese Nintendo website is a common and authorative place to find out storyline details about various series, direct interviews from the creators, and backstory that isn't even mentioned within the games. I think you'd be hard pressed to find information on the Japanese Nintendo websites that was blatantly incorrect.

Well, I have never seen anyone use the Japanese site for anything except in this matter... Of course, I am aware these things are not to be taken lightly, but the more recent material stand above older texts, in my opinion.

Technically, I could claim that TP leads into the Oracle games, because Link begins the games by riding on a horse and ended TP in the game way. Or indeed that Majora's Mask leads into the Oracle games for the same reason, especially considering that the Oracle games were the first Zeldas released after MM.

While obviously the Oracle ending leading into LA is more plausible, that doesn't make it more accurate.

But those games don't work as prequels. The Oracles seem to be made with the intent of leading into LA (which not even ALttP was) and I take note of that.

#296 Duke Serkol

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 01:28 PM

And that's a good thing... because AST happens six years after ALttP.

Now this is new t'me. @.@ Where was this information gleaned from?

It is recently acquired info, I have yet to update the site with it.
The narrator says so during the introduction of week1.

#297 Raien

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 01:35 PM

But those games don't work as prequels. The Oracles seem to be made with the intent of leading into LA (which not even ALttP was) and I take note of that.


The point is that similar methods of transportation are not reliable timeline evidence in themselves, especially if there are no other timeline connections. People prefer to place LA after ALTTP because that was its original placement and Oracles isn't significant enough to change that tradition.

#298 Hero of Legend

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 02:58 PM

Well, then I'll be frank and say that's a flawed point, especially since it is far from the only thematic connection. And yes, I say thematic, because there is nothing, timeline-wise, that links LA to any other game. Seagulls in the ending though, that's pretty obvious.

#299 Arturo

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 04:44 PM

The lines known to be spoken by Ganon make no sense if the *???* lines are also spoken by Ganon.

Not if by "Enough!" he means simply that he has enough power to break free of Zelda's spell.

I don't think this time the other translations are too useful, because they seem to depend on English, rather than on Japanese. However, both in the Spanish and Italian translation, Ganon uses the word "basta", which unlike "enough" cannot mean what you think it means. I personally think it's clear that, at least the translator, thought it was said by Zelda.

#300 LionHarted

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 05:56 PM

Not if by "Enough!" he means simply that he has enough power to break free of Zelda's spell.


If the Princess of Hyrule and all her power amounts to nothing, why was he making a big show about losing strength?

Not only is that not at all in character, the dialogue isn't even remotely like anything else Ganon says during the course of the game.

Edited by LionHarted, 03 April 2008 - 05:56 PM.





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