120 replies to this topic

[SOAP]

Come to think of it, wouldn't Jolene be proof that the seas/people in PH are real? I mean, Linebeck has known her for a long time and he's apparently not a dream person. I can't remember if he is said to have known anyone else before the game but that one case still says something.

He could've been sucked into their world at a young age, probably when he was Link's age.

Still I prefer to think of the PH world as a real part of the Zeldaverse and not a dream. Mostly because it'd just make it a n LA rip-off and PH is so much better than that. I wish Nintendo wasn't so vaque about it... BAH!

[FDL]

I also like to think that it's real, or based on real places. I mean, it explains where the Gorons are in TWW.

[Chaltab]

I think they were going for 'this is the same parallel reality that Link's Awakening took place in'. I mean, Link and Tetra are 'asleep' for ten minutes and have an adventure in another realm that has a Magic Super Whale as the king of the ocean. That's not a clue, it's a billboard.

As for Linebeck, his ship appears just as the Ghost Ship vanishes. It's possible that The Ocean King basically traded his ship for the Ghost ship and sent Linebeck to the world of Hyrule, maybe even granting Linebeck a second wish since his first was much more humble than what he originally wanted.

As for Gorons, it's still possible there are Gorons out there in the high seas, but it seems that the PH Gorons were only a part of the 'dream' world.

[spunky-monkey]

I've seen the PH ending (in English this time) and I find myself agreeing with everything Duke Serkol said.

Oh my giddy aunt...this is probably one of the worse endings ever, nothing made any sense. I didn't think it was humanely possible but they've submitted an ending that actually makes Wind Waker look exciting by comparison, maybe this dastardly means to an end was their ulterior motive? >.>

It was an unnecessary disgrace bringing in a whale to tell Link to return to 'his world' which at this point felt like a sickening bastardization of Link's Awakening ending with the culmination of the Wind Fish's dream, and that should not be.



Ugh...the only way Ninty -could- get it any more mangled up is if they did a parody of "Nausicaä of the Valley of Wind" *shudders* that movie was awful.

Edited by Ricky, 12 November 2007 - 05:10 AM.

[Duke Serkol]

Ugh...the only way Ninty -could- get it any more mangled up is if they did a parody of "Nausicaä of the Valley of Wind" *shudders* that movie was awful.

Are there similarities between that and PH that I failed to notice?

Oh and glad to hear I'm not the only one feeling ripped off by the ending.

[Chaltab]

I've seen the PH ending (in English this time) and I find myself agreeing with everything Duke Serkol said.

Oh my giddy aunt...this is probably one of the worse endings ever, nothing made any sense. I didn't think it was humanely possible but they've submitted an ending that actually makes Wind Waker look exciting by comparison, maybe this dastardly means to an end was their ulterior motive? >.>

...What the hell? TWW has one of the best endings of the series!

It was an unnecessary disgrace bringing in a whale to tell Link to return to 'his world' which at this point felt like a sickening bastardization of Link's Awakening ending with the culmination of the Wind Fish's dream, and that should not be.

How is it a bastardization? It's the same game series and probably the same 'dream' world that Link's Awakening takes place in.

Ugh...the only way Ninty -could- get it any more mangled up is if they did a parody of "Nausicaä of the Valley of Wind" *shudders* that movie was awful.

Dude, WHAT? Nausicaa was great. The butchered 'Warriors of the Wind' dub is, from what I've heard, terrible, but the original movie is very well done.

Edited by Chaltab, 12 November 2007 - 02:28 PM.

[Arturo]

At last someone that defends TWW. I am honestly sick of this whole "Let's make a club of TWW-haters". One thing is critisizing this great game in one thread, dedicsaed to TWW or to Games general flaws. Even though I absolutely love TWW, it has its flaws. But this is not the place to speak about it. Don't make every topic in a "I hate TWW" type. I am saying it nicely.

[MikePetersSucks]

TWW > OOT, imo.

[Duke Serkol]

Personally I like TWW's ending for the most part. I just hate that Link gets pummeled a second time after going through two different quests to prevent exactly that.

[Chaltab]

Personally I like TWW's ending for the most part. I just hate that Link gets pummeled a second time after going through two different quests to prevent exactly that.

At the risk of derailing the thread: I think that what Link did to Ganondorf at the end more than made up for the pummeling.

Anyway, back to the PH ending, I thought it was fine. I pretty much saw the 'you've only been gone for this long' thing coming as soon as I realized that the whole thing was the other world.

My theory is this: the world there is real, but at that point can only be accessed via the Ghost Ship. The Ocean King is a younger version of the Wind Fish. Link's Awakening was unique because Link and the Wind Fish were sharing a dream, whereas in this game, the Ocean King was awake. Koholint Island was completely fabricated, but the rest of the islands exist[ed] as we see them in PH.

[spunky-monkey]

Are there similarities between that and PH that I failed to notice?

None, except for the fact neither made any kind of sense and lacked depth.

...What the hell? TWW has one of the best endings of the series!

One word: bubbles. I win.

How is it a bastardization? It's the same game series and probably the same 'dream' world that Link's Awakening takes place in.

Because it debases Shigeru Miyamoto's 1994 design thereby essentially corrupts one of the finest games ever to run on an 8-bit console. Link's Awakening is one of my most cherished games and some n00bs in Nintendo have the unprecedented gall to spoof up what can only be described as a cheap imitation of such an original story; But nostalgia is one thing: this happened back then and should not be repeated even by the creators themselves for there's nothing anyone can accomplish by reviving old storylines, except major embarrassment.

Dude, WHAT? Nausicaa was great. The butchered 'Warriors of the Wind' dub is, from what I've heard, terrible, but the original movie is very well done.

Oh no, you're one of those film's rabid fans. I'll keep this short to prevent going off-topic: I thoroughly enjoy Miyazaki's recent films but Nausicaa is an example of his 'early works', shamelessly promoting environmentalism and twisted morals such as "all humans bad, all insects good" crap. The ending really made me uncomfortable; it doesn't captivate our imaginations like Spirited Away did, indeed in every possible respect failed where Princess Mononoke triumphed.

Anyway, back to the PH ending, I thought it was fine. I pretty much saw the 'you've only been gone for this long' thing coming as soon as I realized that the whole thing was the other world.

Personally I felt rather 'deflated'; everyone tells Tetra they've only been gone 10 minutes causing the rest of the dialogue and characters to fall head-first into obscurity. The follow-up from TWW adds nothing of any consequence to the overall series meaning Ninty will probably never conclude the Hero of Winds' adventure. I'm going to pretend this never existed.

My theory is this: the world there is real, but at that point can only be accessed via the Ghost Ship. The Ocean King is a younger version of the Wind Fish. Link's Awakening was unique because Link and the Wind Fish were sharing a dream, whereas in this game, the Ocean King was awake. Koholint Island was completely fabricated, but the rest of the islands exist[ed] as we see them in PH.

There aren't any similarities full stop - people tried to associate Lord Jabu-Jabu with the Wind Fish before and they were wrong. You've got more chance of convincing skeptical people like me TP's Hero Spirit is the Hero of Time (when there's something I wouldn't dare speculate you know it's bogus).

Edited by Ricky, 13 November 2007 - 06:39 AM.

[Duke Serkol]

At the risk of derailing the thread: I think that what Link did to Ganondorf at the end more than made up for the pummeling.

Not really. Whatever came afterwards, doesn't change the fact that the game had us go through powering up the Master Sword and collecting the Triforce of Courage to prevent Link being beaten up by Ganon again and once we did that's exactly what happened. It's a slap in the players' faces.

Koholint Island was completely fabricated, but the rest of the islands exist[ed] as we see them in PH.

Interesting idea.

The follow-up from TWW adds nothing of any consequence to the overall series meaning Ninty will probably never conclude the Hero of Winds' adventure.

Yes the only significant addition is the nature of Force Gems (at least yellow ones). But as for the Hero of Wind, his travels may be over, but there is still hope Ninty will explore future events following TWW over the years.

[LionHarted]

My theory on the "world" of PH is that it effectively created another split timeline (albeit, one that is of no consequence to the overall timeline), and the Ocean King simply sent Link back in time.

Link returned to his world in PH just as Link left Hyrule in OoT: not literally.

[Chaltab]

Oh no, you're one of those film's rabid fans.

No, no, not at all. I've only seen it once or twice, but I enjoyed when I did.

One word: bubbles. I win.

The Bubbles weren't the ending, they were the credits. The ending is the part where Link stabs Ganondorf in the forehead.

[Fyxe]

I'm confused. I just finished PH, and I don't understand what you guys are referring to. It's like you watched a different ending. The world that the Ocean King is referring to is not the world where the game takes place, but the dimension that the Ocean King and the Spirits live in. Ceila is leaving Linebeck too, not just Link.

As for the bit after the credits, that was Link and Tetra presumably being sent back in time, probably via Ceila's power (hence the fade out before te credits). That was simply an amusing way of getting them back to the pirate ship and messing with the player's head. The fact that Link has the Phantom Hourglass and that Linebeck got his ship back and is nearby just shows that everything did actually happen.

Basically, the islands and sea where it all took place do exist, and it all happened, but they got sent back to where they began. Seriously, how can you guys misinterpret the ending THAT badly?

As for anyone expecting some kind of revelation in the ending that vastly adjusts the plot of the entire series... Well, you're utter fools. Since when has that EVER happened, and why would it now happen in a handheld sidestory? Honestly.

[spunky-monkey]

That was simply an amusing way of getting them back to the pirate ship and messing with the player's head.

Seriously, how can you guys misinterpret the ending THAT badly?

You know those two statements are contradicting each other, and yes it certainly did accomplish that last part, never before has a Zelda game messed with our heads quite this much. We've even got people speculating cliché last-minute time travel was involved... marvelous. ¬.¬

No, this ending has to be the crappiest one in the series, probably one of the worst ever spawned. Seriously. Even Fyxe's undying love for PH can't mask how horrible that one aspect is; I do feel the need to ask, was this the storywriter's day off or something? Because they must have been under some deadline to produce this corker. ~_~

[FDL]

I was really into PH's story that much overall, though I still enjoyed the game.

[MikePetersSucks]

You know those two statements are contradicting each other, and yes it certainly did accomplish that last part, never before has a Zelda game messed with our heads quite this much. We've even got people speculating cliché last-minute time travel was involved... marvelous. ¬.¬

The irony of that statement made me spew pop out of my nose.

No, this ending has to be the crappiest one in the series, probably one of the worst ever spawned. Seriously. Even Fyxe's undying love for PH can't mask how horrible that one aspect is; I do feel the need to ask, was this the storywriter's day off or something? Because they must have been under some deadline to produce this corker. ~_~

It beats the endings of: LoZ, AoL, FS, and your mother.

It ties with LA, imo.

[Chaltab]

I'm confused. I just finished PH, and I don't understand what you guys are referring to. It's like you watched a different ending. The world that the Ocean King is referring to is not the world where the game takes place, but the dimension that the Ocean King and the Spirits live in. Ceila is leaving Linebeck too, not just Link.

That dimension is the entire world the game takes place in, though. You never enter another dimension. You sail straight from the world to the Ghost Ship, and stay on the Ghost Ship for the rest of the game. Obviously the Hourglass and Linebeck proved that it really happened, but they don't prove where it happened.

It's not at all implied that Ciela is sending Link back in time. The Ocean King flat out states they have to return to their world. And what would be the point in trying to break our brains with simple time travel after games like Ocarina and Majora?

[MikePetersSucks]

That dimension is the entire world the game takes place in, though. You never enter another dimension. You sail straight from the world to the Ghost Ship, and stay on the Ghost Ship for the rest of the game.

Proof please.

It's not at all implied that Ciela is sending Link back in time. The Ocean King flat out states they have to return to their world.

What if he was referring to himself and the three Spirits?

[spunky-monkey]

The irony of that statement made me spew pop out of my nose.

Glad to hear it. Please don't share your other LA-related biological functions with us though.

It beats the endings of: LoZ, AoL, FS, and your mother.

That's hardly a fair comparison since those games are quite old, and FS being just a bonus-game to go with ALttP GBA version doesn't count.

It ties with LA, imo.

Oh you were joking! Sorry I thought you were being serious. =P

[Kairu Hakubi]

Nausicaa was thoroughly brilliant. ALL Miyazaki's films are hippie garbage in terms of their morals, you just have to ignore that. It's the same in all of them. The rest of it more than makes up for it. I mean, GOD, there were GIANT DRAGONFLY CENTIPEDES floating peacefully around a giant forest. That alone is enough to make me want every videogame to copy it.

[Mad Scrub]

I just beat PH. To summarize, it was a good game but the storyline, and the characters were average. The ending also had a similar vibe to LA so it lost some points there too. And since when can rope reflect fire? Magic rope? I also thought The Temple of the Ocean King was repetitive and tedious but the stealth factor made the dungeon more challenging. The game does score some points for innovative use of weapons. The 3D graphics were great but I hope they don't abandon the top down style of old like ALttP, LA, TMC and so on altogether.

[MikePetersSucks]

That's hardly a fair comparison since those games are quite old, and FS being just a bonus-game to go with ALttP GBA version doesn't count.

You said ALL Zelda games. If you didn't want your shit statement to backfire on you, don't say it.

Oh you were joking! Sorry I thought you were being serious. =P

The internet is serious business. LA and PH have about the same goddamned ending.

Nausicaa was thoroughly brilliant. ALL Miyazaki's films are hippie garbage in terms of their morals, you just have to ignore that. It's the same in all of them. The rest of it more than makes up for it. I mean, GOD, there were GIANT DRAGONFLY CENTIPEDES floating peacefully around a giant forest. That alone is enough to make me want every videogame to copy it.

I wouldn't call it hippie garbage. The morals of his works are deliberately supposed to be consistent with ancient Shinto principles, such as "respect nature" etc.

[spunky-monkey]

ALL Miyazaki's films are hippie garbage in terms of their morals, you just have to ignore that. I mean, GOD, there were GIANT DRAGONFLY CENTIPEDES floating peacefully around a giant forest. That alone is enough to make me want every videogame to copy it.

It's a matter of opinion. Because there are mixed reactions that work isn't anywhere as good as some people have claimd, I for one don't like such morals being shoved down my throat every five minutes. Princess Mononoke teaches us the correct message: There is no good or bad. Everyone is merely fighting to stay alive. I don't care at all for bugs Kairu and if every videogame copied that film just for insects then it would very stale very quickly.

And since when can rope reflect fire? Magic rope?

I often wondered about that. Seems Link's item functions are getting worse as they continue to become more abstract in their use.

You clearly didn't say ALL Zelda games. If you want your excellent statement-that-I'm-not-fit-to-mention-in-the-same-breath to succeed, just say it. =3

You're right, I didn't say *ALL Zelda games* MPS thank you so much for noticing.

And how did we like the taste of our own medicine? Next time kindly don't take my post out of context and I'll happily give you the same.

[Fyxe]

Firstly, on the subject of Nausicaa, its message is no different from that of Mononoke. Nausicaa is simply slightly less subtle, but generally it does not place the blame on anyone, it doesn't say that the 'bad guys' are geniunely bad, just misguided. The same occurs for Mononoke, but the environmentalist message is as strong as ever. What's with you guys saying 'hippy crap' and whatever anyway? Suddenly protecting the environment is bad how? Oh no, how dare these family friendly films suggest that people should look after the Earth! How dare they brainwash the children in such a horrible way!

Besides, sod the message, it's just a bloody message, you can take from it what you like. You can't tarnish a whole film by whatever 'message' you think it carries, especially when it comes to fantasy films. Frankly, a film that has a hideous giant melting as it fires a massive beam at an advancing army of rediculously huge insects deserves serious commendation for that alone.

Mononoke is a better film, but not by a massive margin. They're both very similar films. Oh, but the dubs suck.

Anyway, back to the subject.

Phantom Hourglass obviously has a better ending than the older games in the series, but I'd argue that it was a better ending than some recent games as well. FSA, for instance, has a fairly forgettable ending. The best bit of MM's ending was the credits, aside from that the ending was perfectly simple.

What makes PH's ending feel like a cop out is primarily due to some of you are interpreting it in that way. Aside from that, no, it's not the best ending, but frankly it had Linebeck in it so thusly it had more character to it than virtually every other Zelda ending aside from Twilight Princess.

As for the whole going back in time thing... Well. OoT anyone? I've always been a little disappointed in OoT's ending, in retrospect. I do love the credits bit, much like MM. But the actual Link and Zelda bits seem rather twee and have been improved upon in more recent games due to better dialogue and better depiction of emotion. Plus the whole going back in time thing remains a HELL of a lot more confusing than PH's ending.

At least, even if PH did use a similar 'return to normality' thing (and frankly, what the hell else were any of you expecting? It's the same ending for every Zelda game ever) it does it in a playful and amusing fashion.

Oh, and Ricky, quit making snide remarks at me, it's really getting old. Yes, I love PH, along with many other people on these forums. I have an 'undying love' for pretty much all Zelda games simply because I love the style of the series and how it manages to continue feeling fresh despite the fact that I've played every single one. No, they're not all perfect, but they keep exceeding my expectations in many different ways. I was actually skeptical of both TP and PH at first. Then I played them and I changed my mind.

Edited by Fyxe, 24 November 2007 - 05:20 PM.

[Alastair]

Firstly, on the subject of Nausicaa, its message is no different from that of Mononoke. Nausicaa is simply slightly less subtle, but generally it does not place the blame on anyone, it doesn't say that the 'bad guys' are geniunely bad, just misguided. The same occurs for Mononoke, but the environmentalist message is as strong as ever. What's with you guys saying 'hippy crap' and whatever anyway? Suddenly protecting the environment is bad how? Oh no, how dare these family friendly films suggest that people should look after the Earth! How dare they brainwash the children in such a horrible way!

Besides, sod the message, it's just a bloody message, you can take from it what you like. You can't tarnish a whole film by whatever 'message' you think it carries, especially when it comes to fantasy films. Frankly, a film that has a hideous giant melting as it fires a massive beam at an advancing army of rediculously huge insects deserves serious commendation for that alone.

Mononoke is a better film, but not by a massive margin. They're both very similar films. Oh, but the dubs suck.

The message is basically the same, but I think the difference is that you can enjoy Mononoke even if you disagree as the message is only stressed in the final third of the film (by which time the evil genius Miyazaki has tricked you into swallowing his "hippie garbage" morality). In Nausicaa the environmental philosophy is that of the central character, so it is impossible to ignore the issue that Miyazaki is trying to highlight.

I prefer Mononoke, though this is due to the more intricate plot and the stronger development of supporting characters, rather than any revulsion to the ideals that either film was seeing to promote. I have found all of the Ghibli dubs to be fairly sympthetic with how the characters are animated and generally prefer dubs to subtitles. My argument is simple, in that if I wanted to read a Japanese book I would want to read rather than listen to an English translation. Likewise if I want to watch a foreign film then I want to see it, not read it. Ideally I'd learn to speak Japanese, French etc, but unfortunately I lack both the time and the intellect.

[Fyxe]

Well, frankly, if you're put off from a film simply because it suggests that being nice to the environment is a good idea, then you're way too picky and have a strange way of taking offense. XP But hey, thats their call, I suppose. I too prefer Mononoke for the reasons you've listed.

I don't get the argument against subs though. It's not hard to follow subtitles, it's incredibly easy after a few minutes of getting used to it. Plus the Japanese vocal actors generally seem to be more natural and put more realism in their tones of voice, at least in Miyazaki films. The dubs often sound like people faking a voice, like someone doing a Simpsons character. This is fine for a comedy, but they're not comedies. I want to hear real voices, not American actors hamming it up.

Also, Billy Bob Fucking Thornton? As THAT character? Now that is a misplaced voice actor if I've ever heard one. He sounds so so very wrong, especially when you know what the character is meant to sound like.

Then again, I'm put off by dubs often due to all the American accents they employ. The only dub I've watched and mostly not minded is the Hellsing dub, largely because they get the accents mostly right. I think dubs are better these days, Spirited Away seemed fine actually, but Mononoke... No.

...WAAAY OFF TOPIC NOW.

[Kairu Hakubi]

Yeah but Patrick Stewart was great. Really I think their dubs tend to be excellent. I'll take Kiki and Totoro anyday though.
Anyway if someone had the -opposite- moral you wouldn't REMOTELY see them even TRYING to put it in a movie, let alone ramming it down anyone's throats. That's the problem.
...
but yeah I think LA's ending was good enough to recycle once. Just once, but once. It's that good. I never expect much from handheldas though. Heh, portmanteau..

[Nameless_Joe]

The curse on Sleeping Zelda is what started the whole naming tradition, which obviously never happened in TWW's case since Tetra is not named Zelda. That is until she transforms but it would have made more sense for the King to name her that if he was the Prince of the AoL backstory not the King. Sin was the Prince that declared the tradition to begin with which happened after the King had already died.

Errmm.... Sorry to bring up an older thread, but I am VERY interested where you get that "Sin" is the prince's name? Are you speaking literally or metaphorically?