120 replies to this topic

[LionHarted]

While we're on the subject, would it make sense to have TP lead right into LoZ?

It would if there was a situation related to TP in which some king got the Triforce.
But, wait, that didn't happen. It did in TWW, though.

If the Wind Fish and the Ocean King aren't related SOMEHOW, I'm hanging up my theorising hat. 'Homages' to previous games without actually linking them gets too confusing.

Considering PH is a massive parody of a number of elements of TWW (Ho Ho Tribe, "Prince of Red Lions", the fact that the Phantom Sword and its sheath are practically identical to the Master Sword), I see no reason why the Ocean King's true form and the atmosphere of the game's ending shouldn't also be a parody of LA - albeit, one that makes far less sense.

'two magical whales that preside over dream-like worlds but have nothing to do with each other' is a bridge too far, Nintendo.

Because Nintendo seems to be rather confused on whose world is whose (Ciela, I think, mentions that she inhabits "this world" but must "return to the world of the Ocean King." The Ocean King says that the Ghost Ship will no longer haunt "your world", when it was the world you're currently in (PH's sea) that it was haunting. And, at the beginning of the game, Tetra claimed you were in the "waters protected by the Ocean King" (or something like that)... but if the Ocean King is in another world, that's actually quite ridiculous.

So basically, the whole "worlds" concept is too confused to make any sense.

In relation to Lex's 'Phantom Sword being the blue 1 of the 4 Four Swords' theory, I dunno.

It's a very speculative potential guess as to why they used the Water Element symbol.

If, say, the Ocean King existed before the split

The oceans you travel didn't exist until the flood, though.

[MikePetersSucks]

On the worlds issue: It might be a sort of dimensional overlap caused by the problem in PH, ala the Twilight Realm and Hyrule in TP, or maybe "world" is figurative, such as "surface world", "under world", "political world" etc.

[Person]

The people over at GameFAQS all seem convinced that the Wind Fish is the Ocean King, which just seems silly. The world of PH is just another part of the Great Sea, and I really don't think that the two whales are related.

[Evilsbane]

It would if there was a situation related to TP in which some king got the Triforce.
But, wait, that didn't happen. It did in TWW, though.

Ah, yes. I can't believe I forgot about that.

Considering PH is a massive parody of a number of elements of TWW (Ho Ho Tribe, "Prince of Red Lions", the fact that the Phantom Sword and its sheath are practically identical to the Master Sword), I see no reason why the Ocean King's true form and the atmosphere of the game's ending shouldn't also be a parody of LA - albeit, one that makes far less sense.

Anything that references TWW is to be expected since PH is a direct sequel. But, referencing LA is confusing if there's no connection.

The oceans you travel didn't exist until the flood, though.

No oceans existed at all before the flood? Zora's River must have flowed in a circle, then.

[SOAP]

The oceans you travel didn't exist until the flood, though.

No oceans existed at all before the flood? Zora's River must have flowed in a circle, then.

The oceans you travel in TWW and PH did not exist. Not all the oceans in the world. Since as far as we know Link and Tetra sailed from the the Great Sea into the four seas of PH, the oceans of PH would not existed in the same form as sea levels would have been much lower. There'd be much more land much like Hyrule lost due to the flood (The Cobble Kingdom?). Unless Hyrule is some sort of isolated basin which I doubt since in most maps that show Hyrule's shoreline, Hyrule is at sea level to begin with. I think TWW's timeline takes place on a much wetter, and hotter planet than TP's timeline. Global Warming?

[FDL]

I haven't been here in a while....

While we're on the subject, would it make sense to have TP lead right into LoZ?

It would if there was a situation related to TP in which some king got the Triforce.
But, wait, that didn't happen. It did in TWW, though.

So you're actually suggesting that the ghost of a king making a wish on the Triforce and then having it leave him is the same as a king ruling Hyrule with the full Triforce and then passing a piece/pieces to his son is at all similar? TWW is clearly not what AoL is referencing. Personally, I think TP could very well make the "Miyamoto Timeline" make more sense.

Not only that, but PH has also done something for me. It's solidified the idea that the Great Sea isn't "unflooding" anytime soon. The Great Sea isn't just a flooded Hyrule, it has it's own gods and countries, as well as it's own ruins and legends. The Ocean King, Cobble Kingdom, and the fact that wars went on over the Ocean King add to what Valoo, Jabun, Cyclos, and Zephos have already proven. The Great Sea is it's on land with it's own history. Hyrule is a distant memory.

[SOAP]

I haven't been here in a while....

While we're on the subject, would it make sense to have TP lead right into LoZ?

It would if there was a situation related to TP in which some king got the Triforce.
But, wait, that didn't happen. It did in TWW, though.

So you're actually suggesting that the ghost of a king making a wish on the Triforce and then having it leave him is the same as a king ruling Hyrule with the full Triforce and then passing a piece/pieces to his son is at all similar? TWW is clearly not what AoL is referencing. Personally, I think TP could very well make the "Miyamoto Timeline" make more sense.

Not only that, but PH has also done something for me. It's solidified the idea that the Great Sea isn't "unflooding" anytime soon. The Great Sea isn't just a flooded Hyrule, it has it's own gods and countries, as well as it's own ruins and legends. The Ocean King, Cobble Kingdom, and the fact that wars went on over the Ocean King add to what Valoo, Jabun, Cyclos, and Zephos have already proven. The Great Sea is it's on land with it's own history. Hyrule is a distant memory.

I'm down with using TP to make sense of the Miyamoto Timeline. Which always made sense to me anyways... unless you cling to the idea that OoT is still the IW... which TP and TWW both have successfully proven false.

[FDL]

Yeah, exactly. I honestly believe OoT used to be the IW but TWW and TP took that idea into the woods and shot it dead. However, I do believe all the stuff about people fighting over the Triforce in OoT and TP is meant to invoke ALttP, so I still think they're part of it's backstory. Also, I DEFINETLY think ALttP is in the child timeline. I mean, TP makes lots of connections with ALttP while TWW tries to further itself away from it.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 22 October 2007 - 07:54 AM.

[Evilsbane]

The oceans you travel in TWW and PH did not exist. Not all the oceans in the world. Since as far as we know Link and Tetra sailed from the the Great Sea into the four seas of PH, the oceans of PH would not existed in the same form as sea levels would have been much lower. There'd be much more land much like Hyrule lost due to the flood (The Cobble Kingdom?). Unless Hyrule is some sort of isolated basin which I doubt since in most maps that show Hyrule's shoreline, Hyrule is at sea level to begin with. I think TWW's timeline takes place on a much wetter, and hotter planet than TP's timeline. Global Warming?

I'll agree that the Great Sea of TWW didn't exist, but there very well could still have been ocean in the Realm of the Ocean King before the flood. HOWEVER, I'll admit that it's only a possibility - the whole thing's a guess anyway.

[LionHarted]

So you're actually suggesting that the ghost of a king making a wish on the Triforce and then having it leave him is the same as a king ruling Hyrule with the full Triforce and then passing a piece/pieces to his son is at all similar?

1) Only living people can wish on the Triforce, in the first place.
2) No one ever said the king of Hyrule ruled with the whole Triforce.
3) Daphnes must have inherited a "piece" of the Triforce, since he has one in TWW.

Not only that, but PH has also done something for me. It's solidified the idea that the Great Sea isn't "unflooding" anytime soon.

Oh, right. Because gaiden sequels always answer so many questions pertaining to the previous game's ending.

Personally, I think the people inhabiting multiple islands on the Great Sea fits quite nicely with this piece of ALttP lore:
"Their descendants settled in various parts of the world and passed on their knowledge and magical lore to all people."

unless you cling to the idea that OoT is still the IW... which TP and TWW both have successfully proven false.

Actually, it shoots down OoT being a direct prequel to ALttP. Which, if OoT is the IW, shoots down the idea that the IW is a direct prequel to ALttP, not the idea that OoT is the IW. Not that Miyamoto's timeline, released at the same time OoT was declared to be the IW, didn't do this already. But none of you really listened back then. Nope; because OoT was the IW, OoT HAD to be a direct prequel to ALttP. Maybe you were wrong. No wait, because ALL of OoT's sequels suggested that OoT was far from a direct prequel to ALttP, you most definitely were wrong.

The rampant denial here is about as bad as those people who continue to deny the split on principle of TP being originally meant to come before TWW.

Edited by LionHarted, 24 October 2007 - 11:23 AM.

[FDL]

So you're actually suggesting that the ghost of a king making a wish on the Triforce and then having it leave him is the same as a king ruling Hyrule with the full Triforce and then passing a piece/pieces to his son is at all similar?

1) Only living people can wish on the Triforce, in the first place.
2) No one ever said the king of Hyrule ruled with the whole Triforce.
3) Daphnes must have inherited a "piece" of the Triforce, since he has one in TWW.

1) Then why does it leave him immediately after he makes his wish? He's supposed to have it until he dies.
2) It's heavily implied, considering he hid the ToC and still had pieces left over to pass on to his son. So he atleast had two pieces, one of which was the ToC. Daphnes never had the ToC as far as we know, and if he did he would have split it into eight pieces. If you try to say his ruling Hyrule with the Triforce was when he touched it in TWW then I'd have to ask you where his son, the wizard, his daughter, and the citizens of Hyrule are.
3) Yes, a piece of the Triforce of Wisdom. Not the Triforce of Courage, which he must have to be the legenday king of AoL's backstory.

Not only that, but PH has also done something for me. It's solidified the idea that the Great Sea isn't "unflooding" anytime soon.

Oh, right. Because gaiden sequels always answer so many questions pertaining to the previous game's ending.

Personally, I think the people inhabiting multiple islands on the Great Sea fits quite nicely with this piece of ALttP lore:
"Their descendants settled in various parts of the world and passed on their knowledge and magical lore to all people."

So where are legends and gods of TWW and PH? Face it, those games are furthering themselves away from the lore and gods of Hyrule. Plus, I'd like to see how a game that ends with the Triforce and the Master Sword disappearing altogether is a better lead in to ALttP and LoZ then a game that ends with the MS in a forest, that constantly references the backstory of ALttP?

unless you cling to the idea that OoT is still the IW... which TP and TWW both have successfully proven false.

Actually, it shoots down OoT being a direct prequel to ALttP. Which, if OoT is the IW, shoots down the idea that the IW is a direct prequel to ALttP, not the idea that OoT is the IW. Not that Miyamoto's timeline, released at the same time OoT was declared to be the IW, didn't do this already. But none of you really listened back then. Nope; because OoT was the IW, OoT HAD to be a direct prequel to ALttP. Maybe you were wrong. No wait, because ALL of OoT's sequels suggested that OoT was far from a direct prequel to ALttP, you most definitely were wrong.

The rampant denial here is about as bad as those people who continue to deny the split on principle of TP being originally meant to come before TWW.

Again, ALttP and TWW are so un-connected it's absurd. Storywise they're rather far apart. Even the re-telling of OoT's story doesn't sound like the IW. I'm sorry, but every game that comes out makes it less and less likely OoT is the IW, and more and more likely it's just another war for the Triforce.

[LionHarted]

1) Then why does it leave him immediately after he makes his wish? He's supposed to have it until he dies.
2) It's heavily implied, considering he hid the ToC and still had pieces left over to pass on to his son. So he atleast had two pieces, one of which was the ToC. Daphnes never had the ToC as far as we know, and if he did he would have split it into eight pieces. If you try to say his ruling Hyrule with the Triforce was when he touched it in TWW then I'd have to ask you where his son, the wizard, his daughter, and the citizens of Hyrule are.
3) Yes, a piece of the Triforce of Wisdom. Not the Triforce of Courage, which he must have to be the legenday king of AoL's backstory.

1) No. It's supposed to grant his wish until he dies.
2) It doesn't specify which piece of the Triforce was passed on to the prince, nor is it specified that the king who died and passed on the Triforce to his prince was the king who hid the Triforce of Courage.
3) The Triforce of Courage is obtained by Daphnes at the end of TWW, is it not?

So where are legends and gods of TWW and PH? Face it, those games are furthering themselves away from the lore and gods of Hyrule.

Despite PH referencing sages and knights and showing that sacred blades can be reforged.

ALttP and LoZ then a game that ends with the MS in a forest, that constantly references the backstory of ALttP?

.. Because OoT is the backstory of ALttP. xD

[spunky-monkey]

Ugh, the wonderful people of GameFAQS think LA's Wind Fish is PH's Ocean King. Sheer stupidity aside: How ignorant can they possible get? Those two characters have absolutely nothing in common except for the fact that they're whales.

It's worse than when people were comparing that Hero's Shade to the Ocarina of Time's/Majora's Mask Link:-
"GASP! He's got a really b-i-g sword! He must be the legendary Hero of Time!"
"But he looks nothing like that Link, seriously, he doesn't even wear a tunic for Pete's sake."
"Lalala. We're not listening! Lalalalala."

1) Only living people can wish on the Triforce, in the first place.

1) That's never once proven or confirmed within any of the Zelda games.
2) You cannot automatically assume that just because dead people haven't touched the Triforce yet doesn't mean they can't.
3) You're trying to pass off your assumptions as fact.

Actually, it shoots down OoT being a direct prequel to ALttP. Which, if OoT is the IW, shoots down the idea that the IW is a direct prequel to ALttP, not the idea that OoT is the IW. Not that Miyamoto's timeline, released at the same time OoT was declared to be the IW, didn't do this already. But none of you really listened back then.

Whoa, I think you've rewritten history LionHarted. How does this all prevent OoT from coming before ALttP? Actually you'll find those games, with regards to retconning, are so incoherent and incompatible that most of us have already given up trying to force them into the same workable timeline; ask anyone on other gaming forums - their different storylines simply do not mesh together.

1) No. It's supposed to grant his wish until he dies.

1) Again, you do not know that for certain.
2) We can't take Ganon's destruction in ALttP for granted you know.
3) If that was true then as soon as the King drowned his wish would have come undone and Hyrule would still exist (pointless).
4) Because of argument 3 this negates the whole point of TWW's ending; not that there was one of course. >.>

Edited by Ricky, 25 October 2007 - 03:07 PM.

[LionHarted]

1) That's never once proven or confirmed within any of the Zelda games.
2) You cannot automatically assume that just because dead people haven't touched the Triforce yet doesn't mean they can't.
3) You're trying to pass off your assumptions as fact.

That's what ALttP says.

How does this all prevent OoT from coming before ALttP?

Because Ganon died and lost his Triforce (TWW), or wasn't sealed in the realm in the first place (TP).

1) Again, you do not know that for certain.
2) We can't take Ganon's destruction in ALttP for granted you know.
3) If that was true then as soon as the King drowned his wish would have come undone and Hyrule would still exist (pointless).
4) Because of argument 3 this negates the whole point of TWW's ending; not that there was one of course. >.>

1) Yes, I do. ALttP says that the Triforce grants the wishes as long as the user is alive.
2) Relevance?
3) Not necessarily. It would just stop being granted.
4) The point of TWW's ending was for Ganondorf to drown with the ancient kingdom of Hyrule so that "[their] destinies may be fulfilled."

[SOAP]

It's worse than when people were comparing that Hero's Shade to the Ocarina of Time's/Majora's Mask Link:-
"GASP! He's got a really b-i-g sword! He must be the legendary Hero of Time!"
"But he looks nothing like that Link, seriously, he doesn't even wear a tunic for Pete's sake."
"Lalala. We're not listening! Lalalalala."

The argument for the Hero's Shade being Link is way more complex than that and you know it. In fact, neither of those two statement in purple have never been stated by anyone on the "Hero's Shade=Hero of Time" side. Unless you're referring to people at Gamefaqs, because as far I know no one here even remotely debates like that.

[MikePetersSucks]

I just want to point out that all that's ever said is that the Triforce "serves" the person for their entire life. This doesn't elaborate if it refers to their biological or spiritual lives, whether or not it maintains one wish or grants all their wishes for their lifetime, etc., and trying to say otherwise is unfounded speculation.

[spunky-monkey]

That's what ALttP says.

*brief search through game text* Oh FIDDLESTICKS. >:c Best forget what I just said then.

The argument for the Hero's Shade being Link is way more complex than that and you know it.

I did make it kinda obvious (what with the coloured text and all) that was a joke or inside reference of typical irrational arguments created by those 'open-minded' debaters of GameFAQs. Are you drinking too much coffee SOAP?

[Koroks Rock]

So wait, we haven't gotten very far considering how many words have gone by. Let's jump back a step and review.

I'm assuming that Wind Fish does not equal Ocean King. I am basing this on:
1. Names. We'd have seen a reference to the wind part somewhere in PH if they were the same, especially considering the importance of the wind in TWW (PH Link is the hero of winds, right? he should hit it right off with the wind fish).
2. Art. No wings on the Ocean King, nor do we see him fly. Also a different species of whale.
3. Location, location, location. The Ocean King gets four great honkin' chunks of ocean, while the Wind Fish gets a dream island. In my interpretation, they have totally different domains.

Could this be translated into a hand-in-hand kind of deal? One deity covers one area of the world (I'm using the term in reference to a planet), one covers another, maybe there's a thrid unmentioned giant fish/whale/shark that has dominion elsewhere? Maybe Jabun? Why hasn't he been mentioned yet anyway?

[FDL]

1) Then why does it leave him immediately after he makes his wish? He's supposed to have it until he dies.
2) It's heavily implied, considering he hid the ToC and still had pieces left over to pass on to his son. So he atleast had two pieces, one of which was the ToC. Daphnes never had the ToC as far as we know, and if he did he would have split it into eight pieces. If you try to say his ruling Hyrule with the Triforce was when he touched it in TWW then I'd have to ask you where his son, the wizard, his daughter, and the citizens of Hyrule are.
3) Yes, a piece of the Triforce of Wisdom. Not the Triforce of Courage, which he must have to be the legenday king of AoL's backstory.

1) No. It's supposed to grant his wish until he dies.
2) It doesn't specify which piece of the Triforce was passed on to the prince, nor is it specified that the king who died and passed on the Triforce to his prince was the king who hid the Triforce of Courage.
3) The Triforce of Courage is obtained by Daphnes at the end of TWW, is it not?

1) He's the master of the Triforce until he dies.
2) No, I don't think that's correct. It says that the King ruled over Hyrule with the full Triforce and then passed a piece/2 pieces to his son. The son wanted the full Triforce, however, and his advisor told him that the Princess, Zelda, knew the whereabouts of the ToC. She was made to sleep by the wizard, and the Prince decreed that all of his descendants who were women would be named Zelda in honor of his sister. Honestly, I don't think I've ever seen anyone who actually believes the King didn't have the full Triforce.
3) That's just stupid. Daphnes doesn't match the story at all but because he touched the Triforce for a split second in which he used it to bring utter destruction to Hyrule he's that King? He never ruled over Hyrule with the full Triforce, he couldn't have given a piece to his son whilst hiding the ToC in the Great Palace, and we never see Tetra get put into a magic sleep by the aforementioned non-existent brother.

So where are legends and gods of TWW and PH? Face it, those games are furthering themselves away from the lore and gods of Hyrule.

Despite PH referencing sages and knights and showing that sacred blades can be reforged.

Not every sage and knight in the series is related. You said yourself that PH parodies other games, this is no different. They're not even from Hyrule, and they're connected to the carpenters of Hyrule anyway. Also, if I remember correctly, the Phantom Sword is just one of many weapons that people used to fight against Bellum in the ancient history of the Great Sea. Yet another legend of this new land that has nothing to do with Hyrule.

ALttP and LoZ then a game that ends with the MS in a forest, that constantly references the backstory of ALttP?

.. Because OoT is the backstory of ALttP. xD

Not really, no. Especially not in the AT. Honestly, dude, you seem to be set on the idea that OoT has to be the IW when you can't if you want to be able to debate your theory against others. I mean, I could want a single timeline and close my ears to anyone who says anything else but it still doesn't work very well for the story. ALttP, taken as a whole, does not work as TWW's sequel.

[LionHarted]

1) He's the master of the Triforce until he dies.
2) No, I don't think that's correct. It says that the King ruled over Hyrule with the full Triforce and then passed a piece/2 pieces to his son. The son wanted the full Triforce, however, and his advisor told him that the Princess, Zelda, knew the whereabouts of the ToC. She was made to sleep by the wizard, and the Prince decreed that all of his descendants who were women would be named Zelda in honor of his sister. Honestly, I don't think I've ever seen anyone who actually believes the King didn't have the full Triforce.
3) That's just stupid. Daphnes doesn't match the story at all but because he touched the Triforce for a split second in which he used it to bring utter destruction to Hyrule he's that King? He never ruled over Hyrule with the full Triforce, he couldn't have given a piece to his son whilst hiding the ToC in the Great Palace, and we never see Tetra get put into a magic sleep by the aforementioned non-existent brother.

1) Quote?
2) No; it says that the king "ruled Hyrule with the Triforce", and then his son only inherited it "in part." Zelda knew "something about the Triforce", and the king reveals in the scroll that the secret of the Triforce is to "unite all three". The story is much vaguer than you're letting on, even if your interpretation is the easiest and most obvious.
3) No, but we do get references to a sleeping Zelda and the royal family traditionally keeping the Triforce throughout the entirety of the game.

ALttP, taken as a whole, does not work as TWW's sequel.

Because it's not TWW's sequel.

[SOAP]

1) He's the master of the Triforce until he dies.
2) No, I don't think that's correct. It says that the King ruled over Hyrule with the full Triforce and then passed a piece/2 pieces to his son. The son wanted the full Triforce, however, and his advisor told him that the Princess, Zelda, knew the whereabouts of the ToC. She was made to sleep by the wizard, and the Prince decreed that all of his descendants who were women would be named Zelda in honor of his sister. Honestly, I don't think I've ever seen anyone who actually believes the King didn't have the full Triforce.
3) That's just stupid. Daphnes doesn't match the story at all but because he touched the Triforce for a split second in which he used it to bring utter destruction to Hyrule he's that King? He never ruled over Hyrule with the full Triforce, he couldn't have given a piece to his son whilst hiding the ToC in the Great Palace, and we never see Tetra get put into a magic sleep by the aforementioned non-existent brother.

1) Quote?
2) No; it says that the king "ruled Hyrule with the Triforce", and then his son only inherited it "in part." Zelda knew "something about the Triforce", and the king reveals in the scroll that the secret of the Triforce is to "unite all three". The story is much vaguer than you're letting on, even if your interpretation is the easiest and most obvious.
3) No, but we do get references to a sleeping Zelda and the royal family traditionally keeping the Triforce throughout the entirety of the game.

Your theory works IF:

• The Prince is Tetra's ancestor who passes the other half of the TOW down his line till it winds up in Tetra's possesion, which covers him inheriting the Triforce "in part" bit.
• The Sleeping Zelda is like Tetra's Great Great Aunt or something.
• The King ruled with just the TOW and the secret he told his daughter was that there were actually two other crests.

Contradictions:

The curse on Sleeping Zelda is what started the whole naming tradition, which obviously never happened in TWW's case since Tetra is not named Zelda. That is until she transforms but it would have made more sense for the King to name her that if he was the Prince of the AoL backstory not the King. Sin was the Prince that declared the tradition to begin with which happened after the King had already died.

[MikePetersSucks]

So wait, we haven't gotten very far considering how many words have gone by. Let's jump back a step and review.

I'm assuming that Wind Fish does not equal Ocean King. I am basing this on:
1. Names. We'd have seen a reference to the wind part somewhere in PH if they were the same, especially considering the importance of the wind in TWW (PH Link is the hero of winds, right? he should hit it right off with the wind fish).
2. Art. No wings on the Ocean King, nor do we see him fly. Also a different species of whale.
3. Location, location, location. The Ocean King gets four great honkin' chunks of ocean, while the Wind Fish gets a dream island. In my interpretation, they have totally different domains.

Could this be translated into a hand-in-hand kind of deal? One deity covers one area of the world (I'm using the term in reference to a planet), one covers another, maybe there's a thrid unmentioned giant fish/whale/shark that has dominion elsewhere? Maybe Jabun? Why hasn't he been mentioned yet anyway?

1. I'll give you that one.
2. LOL shapeshifting. The Deku Tree(s) in TWW and OOT are clearly different types of trees. The Ocean King and the Wind Fish could be descendents/alternate forms of each other.
3. The Wind Fish ruled the oceans, but created an alternate world when it dreamed. There's no contradiction unless we see the Ocean King sleep.

[SOAP]

2. LOL shapeshifting. The Deku Tree(s) in TWW and OOT are clearly different types of trees. The Ocean King and the Wind Fish could be descendents/alternate forms of each other.

Jabun and Jabu Jabu look like different kinds of fish as well.

[LionHarted]

Why is that quote nowhere in TWW? Unless it's from PH, which you should tell. But I very much doubt PH tells anything interesting about TWW just as MM doesn't about OoT.

"And it is also made clear that this duty is given to the "princesses of Hyrule" (PH)"

I did.

[Duke Serkol]

Going back on topic, PH's ending... holy goddesses almighty, why?!?

But I should go in order... this is going to be long winded so if you guys don't care to hear my opinion of PH and its plot but only want to hear my thoughts on the ending skip to the red line later on. And a word of warning, since this topic is clearly called PH's ending I won't be feeling the need to use spoiler tags.

Okay, as I was approaching the end of this game, after fighting the boss in the Cobble Kingdom I was pretty riled up. I had enjoyed pretty much everything about this game (even the art style has improved for the most part... stubby legs aside), and while the story had not been cunningly original or really functional to the series continuity, there were good things it did and stuff that had some wild speculations go on in my head.
I liked the explanation of Force gems (though those in FSA I believe were slightly different in origin). Liked that the game showed us where the Gorons went, an island, but one large enough and with a seabed below it from which they hardly ever leave (remember how everyone was "Goro-Link is leaving? Whyyy??"). We were also shown that river Zoras still exist.
We had these sisters with strange eyes, the same as those of the succubi sisters (a new race perhaps?). Two new tribes of goofy seals and snow monkeys that were not exceptionally well developed but acceptable. This was, after all, a game in which we traveled away from Hyrule, so new races and architecture (Japanese temples FTW) were certainly welcome.
And lastly, we had Zauza and the Cobble Kingdom. I mean, look at Zauza's nose and compare it with those of the ghosts in Cobble. It's clear that he is a descendant of theirs. Furthermore Zauza looks terribly like Ganondorf (even sporting yellow eyes) and the Cobble were builders of pyramids. A connection with the Gerudo seemed almost certain.
Then finally Zauza forges a new Phantom Sword (as, loosely quoted "I no longer have the one I used to"...) and it looks almost identical to the Master Sword. My mind was racing to figure the possible implications... would certinaly have been ironic if the Master Sword had been forged under the guidance of Hylian Sages but by the hands of a Gerudo smith... and even more so if the ancestors of the Gerudo had their kingdom flooded for some reason.
So I was quite happy with the game thus far and looked forward to the final battle certain that Bellum would be a villain with much to tell. After all, no backstory had been given for him so far, and he had to be pretty smart to create all those monsters and a very elaborate ghost ship. A ghost ship that had Ganondorf's theme music, so there could be a connection between the two villains. Or maybe there was one with Vaati, because of the eye motif. I went to have my final show down and...

...WTF???? A giant squid? A giant squid with an eye in its mouth??? The first boss looked more intelligent than this thing! And naturally it does not, can not talk to us. And not through it nor others we ever find out what Bellum really was and from whence it came.

But that's not the worse of it, no... we have a whale telling us to return to our world that is NOT the Wind Fish (what is it with Nintendo and redundancies??). At first I thought the final battle against Bellum and the Ghost ship had taken place in a different dimension, one in which the Ocean King normally resided... but then Link and Tetra find themselves back to the moment they set foot on the Ghost Ship. So wait, that means all of the adventure took place in another universe. Joy. There goes all possible influence the game could have on the series continuity (except the explanation of Force Gems, of course).

Thinking back to it, this would actually explain several things, like the Prince of Red Lions with its Link look-alike. The incredible resemblance between Master Sword and Phantom Sword. The fact that there is yet another frog deity of the wind apparently unrelated to the ones in TWW. That Beedle (like Salvatore) did not show any recognition and had us go through the points thing again.

I was ready to leave it at that and yet the worse was still to come: Link looks out to the sea and sees Lineback's ship sailing away. Okay, that does it, the ending has just gone from lame to "WTF is going on?". How can Lineback be in the same world as Link? He clearly has a history in the world the adventure took place in. Jolene alone should be proof enough of this. So what the heck has happened? Did Lineback get sucked in the Ocean King's world when he was Link's age or something? Is this another Lineback from Link's own world (not possible because he has the ship you customized, not the default one)? Is Link able to peer into the other world one last time? Or was I perhaps right in thinking that it was only the final battle that took place in another world (unlikely since Link and Tetra were returned to the time when they boarded the ghost ship and there was no talk of time traveling by the Ocean King)?
Aaagh!! Why Ninty? Why do you have to make endings so confusing all the damn time??!? >_<

[SOAP]

We had these sisters with strange eyes, the same as those of the succubi sisters (a new race perhaps?).

At first I thought Jolene and Joanna were Gerudos. But the eyes were really weird indeed. The people of Molida Island have the same eyes and complexion as well. And the girls have the same noses. I think thy may be from that island.

Edited by Arturo, 30 October 2007 - 01:08 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

They had weird noses? I didn't notice. Will have to check, thanks for the heads up

Jumbie has just given me some interesting information on Bellum that (as far as I know) was missing from the English version: apparently his title (when you go to fight him) is given as Mugen Majin, Dream Demon.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 30 October 2007 - 03:37 PM.

[Koroks Rock]

Just out of curiosity... why has no one commented on how Bellum's name is obviously derived from the Latin word for "war"? Is it just too obvious, or is it just too weird- he's not a warlord at all, but a terrorist, in the truest sense of the word. That or a soul-sucker, but soul-sucker hasn't got a nice ring to it.

Edited by Koroks Rock, 31 October 2007 - 10:50 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

But it fits the brilliant level of conversation we can have with him.

And yeah, I did not comment on the name because of the sheer irrelevance of it. But on that note, it is possible that the English translation made his name into a Latin word. According to Jumbie it may have been meant to be something like "Beram".

But I'm more taken with determining the nature of the seas explored during the game.

[FDL]

Come to think of it, wouldn't Jolene be proof that the seas/people in PH are real? I mean, Linebeck has known her for a long time and he's apparently not a dream person. I can't remember if he is said to have known anyone else before the game but that one case still says something.