120 replies to this topic

[Masamune]

No, I'm fairly sure I know where you're coming from, I was just using extreme examples to belittle your point. (Bwahaha!)

But if you think I missed it, then please, enlighten me.

[SOAP]

Fair enough. I guess saying the FS Sanctuary is a easter egg is pretty extreme as well. Still, the temple's existence and how and when you access it makes no sense from a storyline perspective unless both games feature the same Link. And that can't be unless you suggest FS Link is a different link from FSA (Why would Ganon be reffered to as ancient if Link found him recently?).

Yeah it's all just a gimmick, just like Navi saying "Equip with C." That's why I don't bother with the sanctuary's existence at all, at least concerning ALttP's placement. For it makes more sense for ALttP to be parallel to FSA. As to why the Four Sword Sanctuary exists in ALttP if ALttP is in a different timeline entirely is not a huge concern for me. It's like trying to solve why the Legend of the Fairy, an obvious reference to MM Tingle) exists in TWW if MM is in a different timeline. If you think both are worth investigating though, then I have no beef with you (but you have beef with me ).

Edited by SOAP, 14 October 2007 - 08:35 PM.

[Masamune]

Well, I was talking with someone else about it (Luiigii actually) and he came up with the rather... obvious answer, if you want to insist that completing FS is relevant, storywise, to accessing the Four Sword Sanctuary.

It would then imply that Four Swords (and by extension, FSA) precede ALttP in the timeline. Storyline wise, they means that if:

If FS Link defeats Vaati in the past:
Then ALttP Link is able to enter the Four Sword Sanctuary

If FS Link doesn't (because the player has no friends!)
Then AlttP Link never enters the Four Sword Sanctuary

In this case, it follows the same mechanics of having to beat FS first to get to the FS Sanctuary in ALttP without having to say they are both the same. What one of Link's predecessors did in the past has direct consequences in the present. (Hey, now "A Link to the PAST" makes sense!)

The Legend of the Fairy is hard to make sense of, I'll admit. But it does at least prove the Multiple Tingle Theory, which makes dealing with Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland easier. (Otherwise FRTRP would have to take place before/during OoT)

Edited by Masamune, 15 October 2007 - 12:09 PM.

[SOAP]

Luiigii would say that. But it should noted that it works both ways. ALttP's actions affect FS's Link's world as well, like how getting the MS Sword in ALttP affects FS Link's weapon. So ALttP's Link's actions affect things backwards in time?

If you're going down that route, you might as well say FS and ALttP are in parallel spots in the split timeline. That explains why actions of each Link seem to affect each other's world. Kinda like how Link's actions in Dark World affect Light World.

[LionHarted]

FS shooting sword beams is a gameplay mechanic designed to get you to play through ALttP to unlock bonuses in FS. Unlocking the Palace of the Four Sword in ALttP by beating FS is also a gameplay thing, meant to reward the player for completing FS.

The player completing FS isn't part of the storyline of the Palace of the Four Sword, and neither is getting the Master Sword part of the storyline of the FS being able to shoot sword beams; the stories are completely exclusive.

In fact, the only reason why we can define FS's relation to the timeline at all comes in the form of FSA.

[SOAP]

FS shooting sword beams is a gameplay mechanic designed to get you to play through ALttP to unlock bonuses in FS. Unlocking the Palace of the Four Sword in ALttP by beating FS is also a gameplay thing, meant to reward the player for completing FS.

That's what I'm saying. It's an Easter Egg! That's the most simplest explanation. That's why i'm not concerned with the FS Sanctuary at all.

[Masamune]

What LionHarted is getting at is that the method for unlocking the Four Sword Sanctuary is irrelevant. It's a gameplay mechanic. The actual sanctuary itself - that's not an easter egg anymore than the other dungeons in the game are.

[LionHarted]

The things and places do exist; the gimmicks associated with them do not.

[SOAP]

I never meant the dungeon itself was an Easter Egg. Just it's relevance to ALttP, since it's basically a reward for the player and it ties the two games together since they're sharing the cartridge anyways. I'M SAYING THE SAME EXACT THING YOU GUYS ARE.

Quit attacking Mr. Straw Man. What did he ever do to you?

[Masamune]

Well, okay then... to make sure we're on the same page then...

In that sense, you agree that, yes, ALttP Link ends up collecting the Four Sword?

[SOAP]

Well, okay then... to make sure we're on the same page then...

In that sense, you agree that, yes, ALttP Link ends up collecting the Four Sword?

Somehow, yes. And judging by it's location, Ganondorf has it for some reason. Which punches a hole in FSA being a different timeline from ALttP since FSA explains pretty well why Ganondorf has the FS in the Pyramid of Power. Not that FSA as ALttP's prequel doesn't have it's own problems. I'm just not concern with why the FS is in ALttP. It's just there. Maybe if TMC is first in the timeline as some claim, then you have one timeline where the FS is a pretty big deal while in another it gets lost and virtually forgotten.

[LionHarted]

If TMC is first, the fate of the Four Sword should be remarkably similar in both timelines, as far as we know.

Edited by LionHarted, 16 October 2007 - 07:29 PM.

[SOAP]

Not necessarily. Not if in one timeline the Master Sword remains the head honcho. In TWW's timeline, the MS remains beneath the ocean giving the FS a chance move front and center.

Of course another explanation to all this is to simply move ALttP to the same timeline as the FS games. And if you're going to that you might as well take along LoZ and AoL (LA goes without saying). Fine. But I not seeing one dungeon as a justifiable reason to move the games to the other timeline. To me, TP seems to being up to ALttP in some way or another.

[LionHarted]

Not necessarily. Not if in one timeline the Master Sword remains the head honcho. In TWW's timeline, the MS remains beneath the ocean giving the FS a chance move front and center.

The Master Sword is affected by the split because the individuals involved in its use are affected by the split.
Nothing about the Four Sword's condition post-TMC is affected in any way by the split, as Vaati, the FS, etc. are completely detached from it.

[SOAP]

No. You have it backwards. EVERYTHING gets affected by the split except the Mastersword. History takes to alternate routes and both routes become progressively different as time passes. The only reason the Mastersword has a different fate in TWW's timeline is because it was used to keep Hyrule frozen in time underneath the ocean and then later gets lost entirely when the connection above and beneath the waves gets severed. That has more to do with no hero appearing in TWW's backstory then the split that occurred in OoT (albeit the absence of the hero was probably caused by Link going back in time).

[MikePetersSucks]

Or maybe, everything INCLUDING the Master Sword is affected by the split, since there's a Master Sword in each timeline.

>_> Really, you guys just complicate things by arguing these simple details.

[SOAP]

Whatever. My point is, everything is not the same after the split and the differences could only grow larger after that. It's called a split for a reason.

[Masamune]

Well, I don't bother with this Split Timeline bit myself. But how 'bout THIS for size, boyos.

Four Swords happens in, say, Timeline A. I'll grant you your little TMC comes before the split deal for simplicity.

Then here's the hooker... FSA happens in Timeline B. "Wuh oh!" says you "That's not how we roll!"

But consider this:The two games don't necessarily have to take place one after another. And if they don't, what if FSA happens. Ganon is sealed in the Four Sword in place of Vaati (who dies, haha, loser) but then he has a BREAKING OUT party and splits the Four Sword into four pieces. He also, somehow, ends up in the Sacred Realm. And then he somehow gets the Triforce. And he's all looking at the Four Sword like "This shit not be tripping me up again". So he takes the sword and places it inside a special area inside the Pyramid of Power. And then to be a complete dick, makes it inaccessible in the SNES version. And then with his black magics, he makes it so you have to play FS with two or more players to win.

And why, you ask, does this make any sense? Because FS happens in the OTHER timeline at the same time as ALttP. So because of that, they have DIRECT effects on eachother. Like magic. Only it IS magic.

[SOAP]

Well, I don't bother with this Split Timeline bit myself. But how 'bout THIS for size, boyos.

Four Swords happens in, say, Timeline A. I'll grant you your little TMC comes before the split deal for simplicity.

Then here's the hooker... FSA happens in Timeline B. "Wuh oh!" says you "That's not how we roll!"

But consider this:The two games don't necessarily have to take place one after another. And if they don't, what if FSA happens. Ganon is sealed in the Four Sword in place of Vaati (who dies, haha, loser) but then he has a BREAKING OUT party and splits the Four Sword into four pieces. He also, somehow, ends up in the Sacred Realm. And then he somehow gets the Triforce. And he's all looking at the Four Sword like "This shit not be tripping me up again". So he takes the sword and places it inside a special area inside the Pyramid of Power. And then to be a complete dick, makes it inaccessible in the SNES version. And then with his black magics, he makes it so you have to play FS with two or more players to win.

And why, you ask, does this make any sense? Because FS happens in the OTHER timeline at the same time as ALttP. So because of that, they have DIRECT effects on eachother. Like magic. Only it IS magic.

So not only do you place FSA on a different timeline, you'ew saying it takes place at an earlier time than FS?

[LionHarted]

The only reason the Mastersword has a different fate in TWW's timeline is because it was used to keep Hyrule frozen in time underneath the ocean and then later gets lost entirely when the connection above and beneath the waves gets severed.

i.e., because something happened to Ganon in one timeline that didn't happen in the other.

But Vaati is not Ganon. Vaati is not affected by the timeline split, therefore the Four Sword shouldn't be, either.

[Masamune]

So not only do you place FSA on a different timeline, you'ew saying it takes place at an earlier time than FS?

No, I place it in the same timeline. I'm just saying. If I decided to make a Split Timeline, I'd definitely pull that out. Once you break down and do the split, you gotta go ALL the way.

[spunky-monkey]

Personally I'd like to see them drop the two-game-per-Link rule. And definately the "must relate to OoT" rule. That one is getting tiresome.

Sorry, but that's one of the fundamentals of the Zelda series and as much as I would like to see a continuation of the Hero of Time's journey I know deep down its never going to happen (just as well with Eiji steering the helm). Only Capcom's Flagship team ever came close to breaking this 'two-game-per-Link' rule with their Chapter/Mystical Seed series but the third title was cancelled, the rest becoming the Oracle games we know today.

Phantom Hourglass even for all its merits, doesn't add anything to the timeline; Tetra and Link don't find a new land or establish a new Hyrule. Then again think back to Wind Waker and you'll remember the King saying there maybe nothing left for you.

[Hero of Legend]

But Vaati is not Ganon. Vaati is not affected by the timeline split, therefore the Four Sword shouldn't be, either.

Vaati is, however, affected by the flood, which only occurred in one timeline.

No, I place it in the same timeline. I'm just saying. If I decided to make a Split Timeline, I'd definitely pull that out. Once you break down and do the split, you gotta go ALL the way.

No. Not at all. Especially since FSA is a direct sequel to FS starring the same Link.

Sorry, but that's one of the fundamentals of the Zelda series and as much as I would like to see a continuation of the Hero of Time's journey I know deep down its never going to happen

The Prophet returns!

Phantom Hourglass even for all its merits, doesn't add anything to the timeline

Wrong.

[LionHarted]

Tetra and Link don't find a new land

*cough* Cobble Kingdom *cough*

Vaati is, however, affected by the flood, which only occurred in one timeline.

Why would he be? He's either (1) dead, or (2) sealed inside a sword.

Edited by LionHarted, 18 October 2007 - 07:50 AM.

[Hero of Legend]

Why would he be? He's either (1) dead, or (2) sealed inside a sword.

A sword that is either 1) forgotten at the bottom of the ocean or 2) not forgotten. Certainly that's going to make a difference. You also seem to assume that FS, and therefore FSA take place before OoT as well, which was not given. And since we have only seen one line of the FS story, I don't think any of us could speak of what happened to it in the other timeline - with the possible exception of ALttP's FS Palace. Either way it doesn’t mesh with the story as is.

And regardless of any of this, the evidence suggests that TMC occurs after TWW anyway, so this is a sort of pointless discussion.

[spunky-monkey]

Sorry, but that's one of the fundamentals of the Zelda series and as much as I would like to see a continuation of the Hero of Time's journey I know deep down its never going to happen

The Prophet returns!

Actually I fancy myself as a Terminator, like Prophets but with guns.

*cough* Cobble Kingdom *cough*

Like I said, they didn't find another Hyrule so Wind Waker ends its story with Phantom Hourglass. Because of the two-games-per-Link rule we got screwed by Nintendo again.

[LionHarted]

A sword that is either 1) forgotten at the bottom of the ocean or 2) not forgotten.

I dunno.

For all we know, the sword could have been brought to the mountaintops, or on one to begin with.

That's the strange thing about TWW.

Like I said, they didn't find another Hyrule so Wind Waker ends its story with Phantom Hourglass.

mmhm

Because they'd invent this nice ocean story, and never actually finish it.
And, then, on the other side of the timeline, invent this nice "alternate" Ganondorf story, and never resolve all the elements involved, either. (Triforce, etc.)

There is no timeline, is there?

Edited by LionHarted, 18 October 2007 - 08:42 AM.

[Masamune]

No Virginia, there is no timeline. But we can certainly PRETEND there is one! HWUAAGH.

I wish I had my old split timeline chart. It was pretty epic. I think I had maybe 15 or so splits. It wasn't as pretty or concrete as The Triforce of Time Theory, but it was equally infallible.

[Hero of Legend]

Actually I fancy myself as a Terminator, like Prophets but with guns.

I'll admit, I laughed at that.

[Evilsbane]

Right well I just finished PH last night (Europe was so far behind that I only got it on Friday), so I'll throw in my two cents.

1- The point about 'Sand of Hours powers the Phantom Sword, Sand of Hours is made from Force Gems, and Force Gems power the Four Sword' is a fairly logical basis for the FS games being related to PH somehow. On the other hand, that would put most of the games (ALttP, LA, FS and FSA - not necessarily LoZ and AoL) on the Adult Timeline, when it makes more sense to have them on the Child Timeline. While we're on the subject, would it make sense to have TP lead right into LoZ?

2- If the Wind Fish and the Ocean King aren't related SOMEHOW, I'm hanging up my theorising hat. 'Homages' to previous games without actually linking them gets too confusing. I have a hard enough time convincing people that the Dark Mirror and the Mirror of Twilight must be the same. I already don't buy the 'two mirrors, both used to seal dark tribes but having no relation to each other' idea, so 'two magical whales that preside over dream-like worlds but have nothing to do with each other' is a bridge too far, Nintendo.

3- In relation to Lex's 'Phantom Sword being the blue 1 of the 4 Four Swords' theory, I dunno. It's true that it's fanficcish, and the Blue Four Sword looks nothing like the Phantom Sword, but meh. Could the Seashell Sword from Koholint be another? Just asking. Also, Zauz mentions that there used to be another Phantom Sword but he doesn't have it anymore. Could that have been the one used as 1 of the 4 Four Swords?

4- People assume far too readily that just because something is true in one timeline, it's false in the other. The two timelines are different but they're not polar opposites of each other, like some sort of Bizarro-world. If, say, the Ocean King existed before the split, then his Force Gems could conceivably power the Phantom Sword in one timeline and the Four Sword in another (assuming that that's the origin of the Four Sword.