117 replies to this topic

[Alastair]

PH - No option for standard controls. I despised the stylus controls at first, though they've grown on me.

Agreed. This is a constant frustration, and not because the stylus controls are terrible (though they aren't great - particularly struggling where precision movement is required), mainly because the D-pad and other buttons are not used for any additional functions. There is no obvious reason why there is not an option for standard or stylus control.

[Showsni]

But... they are used for some shortcuts. L and R use an item, the different d-pad directions jump to different menu screens, as do Y, A and B, and Start and Select pause and display the Collection Screen respectively...

[Duke Serkol]

What I would really like to know is why PH cannot have a item menu that stops time, like all other games. I have lost count of the times I got hit because I needed to change from boomerang to bow.

[Xkeeper]

Wait, the item menu doesn't pause time? Since I only got the Boomerang before getting annoyed at the stylus and giving up, I never got any other items...

But wow, what was Nintendo thinking? It would've made sense to do more like what Twilight Princess did and just require the stylus when it's needed, but fall back on the normal controls when it isn't.

Then again, I hear in the piracy scene, they've made a patch to make the buttons actually useful again, but I don't know anybody who can try it.

[SteveT]

It would've made sense to do more like what Twilight Princess did and just require the stylus when it's needed, but fall back on the normal controls when it isn't.

No, because it's too jarring to switch from buttons to stylus. See Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow's magic seals during boss fights.

[Fyxe]

Wait, the item menu doesn't pause time? Since I only got the Boomerang before getting annoyed at the stylus and giving up, I never got any other items..

Well, that's frankly wholly stupid and you have no right to criticise the game if you barely played it.

[Chaltab]

It would've made sense to do more like what Twilight Princess did and just require the stylus when it's needed, but fall back on the normal controls when it isn't.

No, because it's too jarring to switch from buttons to stylus. See Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow's magic seals during boss fights.

Yeah, switching back and forth wouldn't work on the DS. It works on the Wii because the 'stylus' in that game has buttons on it and acts as a normal controller when not using the pointer functions.

But yeah an option would have been nice. I've completed the fourth dungeon and am now back in the Temple of Ocean King at this point, and I'm liking the game for the most part. Finally got a bit of the larger story.

Edited by Chaltab, 07 November 2007 - 08:08 PM.

[Xkeeper]

Wait, the item menu doesn't pause time? Since I only got the Boomerang before getting annoyed at the stylus and giving up, I never got any other items..

Well, that's frankly wholly stupid and you have no right to criticise the game if you barely played it.

Analogy time: That's like saying calling shit bad is stupid because you only tasted it slightly.

I didn't "barely" play it (beat the first dungeon, which is probably still significantly into the game), and even if I didn't, it doesn't make my opinion any less valid; I didn't like the game enough to continue playing.

(I see you haven't changed a bit over the years, though)

No, because it's too jarring to switch from buttons to stylus. See Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow's magic seals during boss fights.

True, but then you could just push the "activate" button (for an item requiring the stylus), draw the path, and let game action continue normally.

I can understand midgame changes not working well, but eh. Without a way to test, it's hard to tell if it'd work well or not.

[Fyxe]

Analogy time: That's like saying calling shit bad is stupid because you only tasted it slightly.

...Yeah, because that analogy totally works. Video games are totally like things you eat.

I didn't "barely" play it (beat the first dungeon, which is probably still significantly into the game),

o.o Riiiiiight.
It's... really not.

and even if I didn't, it doesn't make my opinion any less valid; I didn't like the game enough to continue playing.

It makes your opinion on the whole game invalid. You didn't like the first dungeon and the early stuff. That doesn't mean you didn't like the whole game. Hell, you stopped right before it gets really good. Are you unaware of the fact that Zelda games generally start off slow?

(I see you haven't changed a bit over the years, though)

...excuse me? o.o

[Xkeeper]

Analogy time: That's like saying calling shit bad is stupid because you only tasted it slightly.

...Yeah, because that analogy totally works. Video games are totally like things you eat.

The analogy can be used with anything else. Reading. Don't like a book at all? Going to keep reading it just so you can say "ooh, I finished it, hooray"? You can replace almost anything into the analogy.

I didn't "barely" play it (beat the first dungeon, which is probably still significantly into the game),

o.o Riiiiiight.
It's... really not.

It's far enough in the game that some things have already become aparrent, and from what my roommate was telling me, the added gimmicks later -- including a constant timer in dungeons -- weren't any fun as an addition.

and even if I didn't, it doesn't make my opinion any less valid; I didn't like the game enough to continue playing.

It makes your opinion on the whole game invalid. You didn't like the first dungeon and the early stuff. That doesn't mean you didn't like the whole game. Hell, you stopped right before it gets really good. Are you unaware of the fact that Zelda games generally start off slow?

Usually, yes. But they also start off somewhat fun. Phantom Hourglass started off tedious and boring and never improved -- the only real fun was in the dungeon, and even that was about 5% of the game, whereas the fedex quest leading up to it was the other 95%.

(I see you haven't changed a bit over the years, though)

...excuse me? o.o

Hi.

[ShadyUltima]

If I was like you, I would have quit Ocarina of time before becoming an adult, because before you become an adult for the first time, the game is boring. I hate the first three levels.

You have to get a little farther in then that. And I've read books that I thought were going to suck at the beginning, but I read further in because I give things a chance.

If you read the first chapter of the book (the same as finishing only up the first dungeon of PH) and don't like it and stop reading, that's just stupid. There is a difference between eating something and reading/playing/watching something. Movies, books and Video games start out slow, because later on they become fun.

[Selena]

There's a difference between something having a slow beginning and something being unplayable/unreadable/unwatchable. While it ultimately comes down to personal taste, sometimes it's really kind of senseless to waste your time in continuing. If it's just a slow plot, then yes, give it a chance. It might pick up. If you absolutely can't stand it at the fundamental level, then you might just want to spend your time doing something more productive or enjoyable. With books, if the author's style of writing is annoying, chances are it will annoy you for the rest of the story. With movies, if the acting or writing is annoying, that will be all you think about. With games, if the gameplay is irritating, it will effect you for the rest of the game. Regardless of how well everything else is working. Sometimes it's redeemable, but sometimes... no.

So there's nothing inherently stupid about putting down a game/book/movie early if you're annoyed with how it functions at the core level. And if it's still on your shelf, you can always try it again later when you have nothing better to do. And if you returned it, oh well. More money to be spent on something you'll really love. Which isn't to say I immediately throw away any game I'm not enjoying, but there are judgment calls to be made when it comes to that kind of thing. Don't regret that I stopped reading Eragon before I hit the 30 page mark, for example (that was after considerable effort was made to give it a chance).

Sometimes, you just don't get along with a game/book/movie. Better for you to leave an abusive relationship than continue it.

[Masamune]

It's true. Sometimes you don't have to finish a game to know you won't like it. That's how I was with Kingdom Hearts. There was no point in me finishing that, for instance.

[Xkeeper]

There's a difference between something having a slow beginning and something being unplayable/unreadable/unwatchable. While it ultimately comes down to personal taste, sometimes it's really kind of senseless to waste your time in continuing. If it's just a slow plot, then yes, give it a chance. It might pick up. If you absolutely can't stand it at the fundamental level, then you might just want to spend your time doing something more productive or enjoyable. With books, if the author's style of writing is annoying, chances are it will annoy you for the rest of the story. With movies, if the acting or writing is annoying, that will be all you think about. With games, if the gameplay is irritating, it will effect you for the rest of the game. Regardless of how well everything else is working. Sometimes it's redeemable, but sometimes... no.

So there's nothing inherently stupid about putting down a game/book/movie early if you're annoyed with how it functions at the core level. And if it's still on your shelf, you can always try it again later when you have nothing better to do. And if you returned it, oh well. More money to be spent on something you'll really love. Which isn't to say I immediately throw away any game I'm not enjoying, but there are judgment calls to be made when it comes to that kind of thing. Don't regret that I stopped reading Eragon before I hit the 30 page mark, for example (that was after considerable effort was made to give it a chance).

Sometimes, you just don't get along with a game/book/movie. Better for you to leave an abusive relationship than continue it.

I would like to congratulate you on being the only person to get my point. Hooray!

And yes, I can take "slow gameplay". As long as it doesn't putz around for too long, I can keep going. But the gameplay and overall "here, let's show you exactly what to do for each step of the game" feeling started making things annoying.

After a point, Link's Awakening, one of my favorite games, stops tutoring you. You're supposed to figure things out (or use a manual, whatever). Oracle series games started making the fedex quests between dungeons longer and more annoying to do, to the point more time was spent running errands for somebody than actually playing though the dungeons and overall it just got tedious after a while. This game has you sailing and running around like an idiot for a long, long time to accomplish anything.

There are certain game mechanics that will piss me off. The same ones won't piss you off. It's just how things work, and if you start calling anybody "stupid" for their opinion, you have a problem.

[D~N]

Hey! =P I understood your point. But not in this thread- in the other thread about PH. It looks like the two are merging...sitll, I agree with your point. But only to a certian degree, mind you. You say you "think" you wont like the time limit...but do you know for sure? I guess you'll never know, now.

It's far enough in the game that some things have already become aparrent, and from what my roommate was telling me, the added gimmicks later -- including a constant timer in dungeons -- weren't any fun as an addition.

Here's the thing: I LOVED the timer. Loved it. It adds so much thrill, so much suspense, so much more of a rush to the temples that it really takes a boring DS game and turns it into something much more. And even if you didn't love it, you probably wouldn't have minded it. In fact, it made it more difficult, something that most people complain about when discussing recent Zelda games. So there's that, as well.

Always give soemthing a fair chance. I mean, if you really know you're going to dislike something, but don't want your credibility to be besmirched, then at least play through a decent amount, like half, of the game (I hear it's not long, so no problem there). Like, I didn't like ALttP; I don't know why, I just didn't like it's fundamentals or some stupid shit. But I played through it anyway. I didn't enjoy it, but at least I don't let that hinder my argument.

Edited by D~N, 09 November 2007 - 11:46 PM.

[ShadyUltima]

Always give soemthing a fair chance. I mean, if you really know you're going to dislike something, but don't want your credibility to be besmirched, then at least play through a decent amount, like half, of the game (I hear it's not long, so no problem there). Like, I didn't like ALttP; I don't know why, I just didn't like it's fundamentals or some stupid shit. But I played through it anyway. I didn't enjoy it, but at least I don't let that hinder my argument.

I also didn't like Alttp, I completed the first few dungeons and got the master sword, and then I went to the dark world (if that's how it goes, this was a long time ago...) finished the first one or 2, and by then I realized the game wasn't going to get better, so I quit.

But personally, I tend to stick with something until it's done. I watched all of the God Father a while back, and I hated it. It was a slow movie, with nothing exciting going on, and it just bored me to tears. Tonight I went and watched American Gangster... which was essentially 'The Black God Father' and same result, bored me to tears. I hated the movie, but I sat through it, hoping it would get better. After all, Denzel is one of my favourite actors... but that movie was just awful.

[Koroks Rock]

First off- you all have too much money if you can buy a new DS game and then put it down after thirty minutes of play. It's great for you guys and all, but it also makes me sad. I like to try and get my money's worth out of everything I buy, but I guess money is of different worth to different people. Perhaps a better analogy would be "I bought a full meal, but the appetizer was meh, so I left it on the table."

But. On the subject of disliking the PH controls- I actually really enjoyed them, especially the nicely complex stuff you get into in the late game. I would talk about the last fight but... spoilers. I felt that once I got over the loss of the Dpad (which did bother me for an hour or two) I really could appreciate what could be done with the stylus, because I wasn't thinking about the stylus any more- the interface had become transparent, which is what a good interface should do.

On a side note: who else was greatly amused by the skeleton bemoaning his fate, because he had wanted a Dpad in the deeper parts of the central dungeon? I thought it was hilarious.

[Arturo]

I understand that someone isn't able to finish a book or game, and I don't think that's sad or hat they are stupid. BUT you cannot critisize a game you barely haven't played. You can't say "I didn't like the beginning" or "The game didn't make me want to play it more". But that's it. You cannot say more, because you know hardly anything. I am not defending PH, in fact I do not agree with most of the opinions here, but I enjoyed it. But I can comment on it. You only can in a very superficial way. You just assume what the whole game is like. The rest of us assume nothing. We know how it is.

[spunky-monkey]

I pickup Twilight Princess quite often for the exhilarating thrill of riding Epona across the over-world and those cool dramatic cutscenes, if I didn't, these aspects wouldn't irritate me. On your top right-hand corner of the screen there's the easily recognizable 'item display' but, why does it occupy so much darn space? It's horrible on NGC and even worse on Wii, taking up perhaps one third of the screen. They could've at least positioned them properly and make the shape's size more practical.

Another stupid setup was that new mechanism for opening the GameCube version's Item Selection Menu: Press up on the D-Pad? Total rubbish. What craziness possessed Nintendo staff to separate it from your main menu I'll never know. Like the old saying goes: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

[Kairu Hakubi]

I think people were sick of having multiple menu screens and having to cycle through them with L and R. I didn't mind it much, but back in OoT it was painfully slow (like many aspects of that hardware-limits-pushing game)

[spunky-monkey]

I think people were sick of having multiple menu screens and having to cycle through them with L and R. I didn't mind it much, but back in OoT it was painfully slow (like many aspects of that hardware-limits-pushing game)

I'm unable to explain why Ocarina arguably had the worst one in terms of navigating speed as there shouldn't have been any technology issues (no loading times with cartridges) especially since Majora's Mask had clearer resolution, descriptions and a much faster cycle. Perhaps the programmers were shortsighted in that players would want to scroll quickly?

EDIT: however I instantly spotted that my PAL GameCube disc of Ocarina of Time & Master Quest bundled together with TWW was at 60Hz with a faster frame-rate allowing you to browse item selection the same speed as MM.

Edited by Ricky, 10 November 2007 - 02:04 PM.

[Fyxe]

EDIT: however I instantly spotted that my PAL GameCube disc of Ocarina of Time & Master Quest bundled together with TWW was at 60Hz with a faster frame-rate allowing you to browse item selection the same speed as MM.

It's still not as fast as MM, even on 60hz. It's an odd flaw, as you'd think they would have noticed. Then again, maybe they added the rotating item menu fairly late in the design process. I certainly don't remember seeing shots of the menu screen until the game was actually finished.

[Selena]

That menu in OoT was so slow that it's considered a flaw? To be honest, it never really bothered me. Didn't even really notice. O.o


Perhaps that'd due to years of FF menu navigating. Anything is fast compared to that.

[Fyxe]

To be fair, it's not really noticable unless you switch to OoT from recently playing MM or most other Zelda games. But yes, at least it isn't a FF menu, oy..

[Chaltab]

Now that I've finished Phantom Hourglass, my concerns about the controls have mostly vanished.

For those of you who didn't like it, give it another chance: it does stop holding your hand, and it does have some fantastic uses of the touch screen function in later dungeons. The boss fights of the last few dungeons are great. The touch controls are still imperfect, but honestly I don't think this particular game could have been made without them.

[Iron Knuckle]

ALttP - Seemed pretty much okay to me. The one item button didn't bother me at all.

LA - Some of the BGM was pretty annoying in design. Not just because of the GB's limited sound producing capabilities, but the melody of certain tunes themselves. I can still recall that horrible Face Shrine theme. ugh... Also the 7th dungeon could be pretty annoying if you lose track of that iron ball with which you had to break the four columns.

OoT - The Water Temple, I recall that lowering/increasing the water level at the wrong moment means that you have to go through the entire cycle before you can get the water back at it's original height. A bit tedious I say.

MM - Only four real dungeons... I found that quite a pity.

OoA - Jabu-Jabu's belly had similar issues with adjusting the water level.

TWW - The sea traveling (especially, for get pictures of everybody in the Figurine gallery) and again only very little dungeons, which where strictly linear.
The addition of the Savage Labyrinth was a nice idea, but with Grandma's soup and all other stuff the labyrinth is hardly a challenge.
The Tingle Tuner didn't had much use other than finding those special statues and Knuckle.

TMC - Indeed too easy, but that seems to be an issue with more modern games.

TP - Because of all the scripting all events happen in a predetermined order, which means that there is very little freedom for exploration on your own. For example the first time entering Hyrule Field shows that all, but one, entrances are blocked off.
The game does offer a nice amount of dungeons, but most of the dungeon items are only useful in the particular dungeon were you find them.
Finally, the last part of the game (Twilight palace and Hyrule palace) felt like the game was rushed and abruptly ends.

[Raien]

The biggest problem that Nintendo have with the Zelda franchise (and which relates somewhat to most people's issues with the series in this topic) is that they're trying to please two audiences at once; the group of people that enjoy exploration and discovery, and the group of people who don't have the time to wander around and would like a more linear pick-up-and-play structure. I think Phantom Hourglass has come closest to pleasing both groups, but it needed a better atmosphere to make exploration more enjoyable.

Edited by Raian, 06 July 2008 - 06:38 AM.

[Kairu Hakubi]

Y'know I think youre right. They made all the exploration completely optional in TP, (til the statues part, and even then you had indicators on your map), so that linear-fans could just rush through it...
I mean, come on, SPEEDRUNS? Slow is the entire point.
Still, I suppose it's fine giving us the option. The exploration is still good and rewarding even if they ARE trying too hard to please the linearity fans...