117 replies to this topic

[spunky-monkey]

Okay, can you remember what single flaw, feature or concept annoyed you the most in any particular Zelda installment in the series? Feel free to describe every excruciating detail of your anguish.


A Link to the Past - That sodding one-item selection screen; the fact you could only assign one button to a single item at any given time was painfully awkward and confusing. Considering the number of buttons both SNES controller and GBA possessed it would have been plausible to have opted for two selectable items that you could switch from Link's inventory when required. Fighting Ganon would be cake even for first-time players if you could simply call out those silver arrows fast enough.

Link's Awakening - testing its gameplay right this minute...post it later on

Ocarina of Time - Link couldn't use both sword and shield properly in battle; in order to engage your enemy you had to first drop the shield leaving you exposed to counter attacks. I hate this aspect a lot.
(Thankfully in Majora's Mask young Link was much more responsive so the controls allowed you to easily attack while defending, and after executing said move quickly protect yourself again. Players weren't required to let go of the R button.)

Majora's Mask - Playing the Ocarina; while this may sound like nitpicking you'll know exactly how much the game orientates around time-based events forcing the player to continually play songs to skip days & nights, and its this forever slowing down or speeding up the course of time that eventually becomes a nuisance.

Oracle Series - I'll add this one later too...

The Wind Waker - Sailing across what can only be described as one of the most boring over-worlds ever created was one of the most boring experiences I've ever had. I originally thought the ocean would be a fascinating plain for players to transverse. Nope designers had it right before: Epona was made for Link, and Link was made for Epona.

The Minish Cap - This game's difficulty was laughably easy; the subject is becoming common knowledge for experienced gamers in Zelda, but the generic dungeons 'puzzles' and mini-boss fights are virtually non-existent. Off the top of my head I can't remember a single incident where I got hopelessly stuck. Only Vaati gave me any trouble but he was the final boss after all.

Twilight Princess - It offered me almost no side quests at all; a shocking flaw in game-design actually.

[Eblel]

I don't remember having any grievances with Ocarina of Time or Majora's Mask. They were both excellent and up to stratch back then, at least.

Wind Waker and Twilight Princess not so much, though.

Wind Waker

I enjoyed the way the game opened. Exploring the island and finding that hidden wood across the bridge, then heading off to Dragon Roost and seeing the postmen going about their work. Then the beautifully atmospheric Forest Haven Dungeon. But after that, the game started to feel unfinished. I didn't like the sea, and I didn't like the multiple visits to the Forsaken Fortress, either.

I liked the Wind Temple, though. Well, I think that was the name - it was one of the last two, and most of it was gold coloured. But yes, my main issues were the length of the game (too short) the empty sea, and having to change the wind direction constantly.

Twilight Princess

It was a great game, and certainly better than Ocarina of Time. But it didn't do enough to meet expectations today, especially after all the hype. Nintendo were constantly talking about story; how this'd be the darkest Zelda yet. Fair enough, it started out great at the beginning, but then after the third dungeon it fell apart. It was practically non-existant. Then they introduce Ganondorf again, do nothing really clever with him, and Zant turns out to be a dumb puppet of Ganondorf.
Haven't we seen a similar scenario in A Link to the Past?

From a gameplay perspective, I hated the bug hunting sections as the Wolf. I hated the Twilight Realm, basically. The overworld was empty - where where the sprawling forests seen in earlier trailers? I expected a world as cleverly designed as the Shadow of the Colossus world, but it wasn't much better than the Hyrule Field of Ocarina of Time. Then there was Hyrule Castle Town. Why weren't the NPC's half as deep as the ones in Majora's Mask?

Why couldn't they have filled it with interesting places to side-quest in? Perhaps an odd settlement or two, hidden ruins, and forests. Instead there were small, boring caves that held rupees, and a few enemies. Where's the fun in that?

And I found most of the dungeon themes to be uninspiring. Temple of Time, City in the Sky, and the Twilight Palace were great, but the others were more of the same. I mean, I love the usual forest dungeon, but I hate the Fire, Water, and Ice dungeons. Couldn't they have done something different? Granted, they mixed it up a bit with the ice dungeon, but it was still an ice dungeon.

Lastly, what happened to the animal/dungeon mechanic? Nintendo were always talking about having to communicate with animals to progress in dungeons, but the idea never really went past the first dungeon. I thought that was going to be a fundamental aspect, so I was very disappointed.

But I enjoyed both games very much. Wind Waker, especially.

Edited by Arturo, 08 October 2007 - 10:29 AM.

[Fyxe]

the fact you could only assign one button to a single item at any given time was painfully awkward and confusing.

Awkward... Maybe. But confusing? How the hell is it confusing?

Fighting Ganon would be cake even for first-time players if you could simply call out those silver arrows fast enough.

You can call them out as fast as you damn well want, the game is PAUSED when you select items. And why is making a game easier a good thing? Especially given one of your later points.

Majora's Mask - Playing the Ocarina; while this may sound like nitpicking you'll know exactly how much the game orientates around time-based events forcing the player to continually play songs to skip days & nights, and its this forever slowing down or speeding up the course of time that eventually becomes a nuisance.

Thing is, playing the songs isn't the issue. That's just an input mechanism and gives your memory a nice test. The problem actually stems from OoT and continues to exist in TWW... Once you complete a song, you're forced to watch Link play it again with a shiny but utterly pointless animation, and then you get another entirely unskipable animation for when you warp or go forward in time. The main problem is that most of these animations can't be skipped. It's especially annoying when playing things like the Scarecrow's Song where you have to listen to the song and then you find out you're not quite in the right spot to make the scarecrow appear.

Sailing across what can only be described as one of the most boring over-worlds ever created was one of the most boring experiences I've ever had.

I always feel the need to say this when people complain about TWW's overworld...

There's islands. Stop at them. Also, Hyrule Field is just as if not more dull in OoT, horse or not.

The main problem is the same problem from OoT and MM. Playing songs to change the wind direction (or warp), with animations to boot.

The Minish Cap - This game's difficulty was laughably easy; the subject is becoming common knowledge for experienced gamers in Zelda, but the generic dungeons 'puzzles' and mini-boss fights are virtually non-existent. Off the top of my head I can't remember a single incident where I got hopelessly stuck. Only Vaati gave me any trouble but he was the final boss after all.

I find TMC to be notably harder than, say, TWW or OoT. So I don't really know if you're directing your complaint at the right game.

Twilight Princess - It offered me almost no side quests at all; a shocking flaw in game-design actually.

Well, it seemingly had more than OoT; a game that is endlessly praised for it's game design.

My main problem with Zelda games when it comes to game design is a problem that began in OoT and hasn't gone away... The ability to smack bosses repeatedly, mainly when they're stunned. Essentially this causes most bosses to be defeated in three flurries of sword swinging. I prefer the days of ALttP and LA (and by association, the Oracle games) when bosses would only take one hit at a time, usually in a sneakily hidden weak point, meaning you can't abuse jumping strikes or Deku Sticks (or the Biggoron's Sword). This meant that bosses put up more of a fight, rather than simply being an extended puzzle (which is fine, to an extent, LA did this perfectly, but damn, once you work out the trick, at least give the bosses some way to react).

TMC actually had some fairly difficult bosses. Vaati is the toughest final boss in the series for a long time, and there's some nasty fights with three Darknuts at once and a few other cruel enemies to defeat. So I don't understand why TMC is being singled out for being too easy.

[Veteran]

I hate the kinstones with as much hate as one can muster.

[Masamune]

I wonder what was going through the heads of the design team when they decided Kinstones was a good idea.

[SOAP]

I wasn't annoyed by anything in OoT or MM. If I was it was far too long ago to remember. I did play some of the pre-OoT games after having played OoT but I had no beef with them either. I just really, really sucked at playing them and ALttP I never finished because I lost my GBA remake, along with my GBA SP. Actually I know who stole it but I'm not too worried since she probably gave it to her little sister and I'm not about take something away from a little girl, even if it is mine. But I'm digressing...

As far back as I can remember I really didn't like Oracles. The dungeons were ridiculously hard. Especially OoA. I remember one dungeon where you had to run across moving floors without hitting any walls or enemies in order to make the very short time limit to reach the door. That's was like, right to impossible and I always missed the door by one millisecond. Actually both my Oracle games were with my SP, as well as my copy of TMC... That's like almost half my Zelda collection GONE. Oh well I'm just mad about TMC and ALttP.

Oh yeah, another thing that annoyed me in Oracles, well it's nothing major, but it just didn't make much since was Bippin and Blossom's kid which starts off as baby and eventually grows up to be a young man over the course of the two games, while Link and everyone else doesn't age one bit. That was just a lapse of logic that didn't make sense, even by video game standards. I guess their son just miraculously ages faster than everyone else and matures mentally and emotionally fast too, which is just sad because he'll probably die an old man before his first birthday. Poor Bippin and Bloossom...

Four Sword was annoying for the obvious reason that I didn't know anyone who had a DS, much less a copy of the ALttP remake. I also didn't get how stuff in ALttP and FS are supposed to affect each other if FS is supposed to take place at a different time with a different Link.

I can't say much about TWW that hasn't been already said. I loved the cartoony graphics, the clever dungeons, the colorful atmosphere, and the fluid combat. What I loved most of all was the ability to pick up weapons dropped by enemies and use it against them, which hardly gets praised at all. But aren't I supposed to be complaining about TWW? Oh yeah! Pretty much the vast ocean which gets boring after a while (even with almost fifty islands and reefs to visit). Having to play the Wind Waker every time you needed to change the wind direction got really repetitive, especially when sailing out in sea.

That and I really don't like how Link looks. It's what turned me off to TWW in the first place and I still never really liked his TWW Look. I didn't like his hair, his eyes, his long arms, and short, stubby legs and ridiculously tiny feet. To me, he just look like a big-headed chimp with pig-feet and a yellow horn on the side of his head. I don't really mind how the NPC's looked, even with all the flat-chested women, but TWW Link's look just kinda cut me off from the player experience because he was just so freakish looking I couldn't identify with him like I would with OoT Link and TP Link. BUUUUUUUUUUUT since I only saw TWW Link from behind like 70% of the time it was no big deal. He looked pretty much the same as OoT kid Link from behind.... except for that annoying "horn" that I kept wanting to snip off...

Ugh, don't get me started on Twilight Princess. I just say I didn't like all the major retcons and the Oocca were an unwelcomed addition to the series that I much rather be without. Actually I did like Ooccoo (but not her son). I would have liked her more if they didn't go and God-mode her entire species.

I'm loving Phantom Hourglass so far. It had a lot of what I felt TWW was missing and it's too bad it couldn't be on a bigger screen where the ce-shaded graphics could really shine like TWW did. Even so still looks good even with it's lower polygon count and lowered graphics. The only thing that's annoying me so far is... well nothing. It's an absolutely perfect sequel to TWW. Cheers...

Actually, I have a few small nitpicks. Why did they have to change the names from the Japanese version? Ceila I like, but Reef and Nelly were way better than Leaf and Neri.... I suspect translation errors here... Also I like Verdure and Azure better than Aquamarine and Azurine. Crimsorine I was okay with though. And Toona Fish... The hell? Nice to see Nintendo has a sense of humor.

Edited by SOAP, 08 October 2007 - 04:17 PM.

[ShadyUltima]

LoZ - Not enough story in the game, and I usually don't know where to go next...
AoL - Aside from the complete change in the game, my biggest problem is pretty much the same. I never know where to go.
LttP - To me, the game is just boring. I personally think it's one of the worst in the series, because the puzzles all seem the same. I've never been able to get into the game, I get to the first dungeon after getting the master sword, get completely bored and quit.
LA - I've only played this a few times, and I could never get far. I haven't played it in years, but I remember it being way too hard for me. But at the time I had only just started OoT, and Pokemon was most of what I played...
OoT - There really isn't a whole lot I don't like about this game. It's my favourite game of all time. I have both the 64 and the Collector's Edition Re-Release, and the 64 version is better. The problem with the re-release is some of the controls are iffy occasionally. I think 100 Gold Skulltulas is WAY too many, and the reward you get is not worth it...
And the biggest issue with me (if you have the sound on) is Navi "HEY! LISTEN" and then telling you something she's already said 20 times. The worst is when she tells you to go to a level... and you're fighting the boss.

I always imagine Link in a scene like that. Volvagia is flying around Link's head, and he's like, "Ok, Navi, what am I supposed to do here?" And she goes "That cloud around Death Mountain looks odd... we should check it out" Link goes "Well, I suppose you're right, BUT I'M ALREADY HERE, FIGHTING THE BOSS!"

MM - Again, I love this game, but my CE version tends to freeze. Aside from that, the biggest issue I have with this game is that everything gets re-set when you go back in time, including dungeons. You miss one of the fairies... you have to re-do the entire dungeon...
Oracles - Only ever played OoS, but it was hard. Other than that, I can't really remember anything I REALLY didn't like about it.
FS - I don't like that you can't play it single player, because I don't know anyone else who owns the game...
TWW - I've expressed that I did not like the animation, it turned me off originally, but I still thought the game was ok. Although I do agree with Ricky that it is one of the worse games in the series. I'd have to play it through again to remember exactly what I didn't like, but there were a few things I was unhappy with. As everyone has said, the ocean kinda got boring...
FSA - Why did they have to make this game be exactly like Crystal Chronicles? I know it only came out a few months later, but it had that same flaw. Not many people have a gba AND a gcn link!
TMC - I've just got the flippers, but so far, there is very little in the game I don't really like. Ezlo is much less annoying than Navi, but he tends to be a little like Tatl with the whole 'make fun of the player' thing going on.
TP - I don't really remember anything I didn't like. The wii version's controls felt clunky, but I really enjoyed the GameCube version.
PH - So far, I haven't had TOO many problems. The ocean is a LITTLE bit better, but sometimes the DS doesn't realize I touched something. Like when the traps come up in the water, and I touch the jump and it doesn't jump. Or when I click on a hazard (like a bomb) and instead of picking it up, Link attacks. It doesn't happen OFTEN, but it happens occasionally, and it's frustrating.

[SOAP]

I knew I forgot a game. Actually I wasn't annoyed with FSA at all. Even with the GBA hookup deal. I was perfectly satisfied with the single-player mode.

[ShadyUltima]

I knew I forgot a game. Actually I wasn't annoyed with FSA at all. Even with the GBA hookup deal. I was perfectly satisfied with the single-player mode.

Same as CC, but I wanted to play with friends

[SOAP]

Well my problem was that I didn't have many friends that were Zelda fans to begin with. It's all Halo and Gears of War back when I was living in Waco.

Edited by SOAP, 08 October 2007 - 11:41 PM.

[Masamune]

CC was brutal without having friends to play. FSA was a pretty decent game, overall.

But I'm going to pull out MY list of grievances!

LoZ - The NES Cartridge is temperamental with save files. Otherwise, no issues.
AoL - A perfect game. Not enough games in this style.
LttP - No issues save for the remake. Not being able to play the Four Sword Palace without completing Four Swords is a let down.
LA - Not much to say here either.
OoT - Nothing, aside from breeding a certain kind of Zelda fan... *cough* It's funny to think that it's been so long now, that even OoT is "Old School". I remember a time when people who started with ALttP weren't even considered Old School!
MM - Pretty much the best of the 3D games. I just wish it was longer. It's length is not a flaw... its just so great a game, I wish there was more.
Oracles - Extremely forgettable. Capcom should have spent more time on just creating one game.
FS - No single player mode, otherwise not much to say. It's a quick three-to-four level romp.
TWW - Needed at least two more dungeons and no Triforce quest. This is a game that I wished had been delayed a bit more.
FSA - No major issues, although there are certain levels where, when playing with friends, it's somehow harder to play...
TMC - A short game whose theme of shrinking was not fully explored. The length of the game is weird, really. Flagship managed a total of 17 dungeons for the Oracles games, but could only manage 4 here? I can forgive shortness in the 3D titles... but it seems odd in a 2D title. Also: Kinstones are horrid. And way to make the Figurine gallery an abomination of Melee and TWW, only not remotely interesting.
TP - Pretty good game altogether. Not enough Tingle.
FPTRL - Oh Tingle. How do you manage to have what is probably the best of the handheld Zeldas, if not the entire series? My major issue is that there needed to more of an indicator on how much to pay people... it's really easy to lose a lot of money since you have no idea how much people really want...
PH - Like any touchpad-using game, my hand hurts after playing awhile... Otherwise, a rather easy game. The puzzles are ingenious, but the dungeons (of which there are ample) tend to be extremely short. The layouts are generally very clever, but there's not a whole lot of depth.

[Reflectionist]

LoZ - Not enough story in the game, and I usually don't know where to go next...
AoL - Aside from the complete change in the game, my biggest problem is pretty much the same. I never know where to go.

Damn those games, being made in the 80's and not being able to compare to the depth of the games made in the 2000's. Where those silly Japanese people on the little white rock or what!?

The Nerve of them.... making shitty games, not even trying hard at all....

What the hell is with those 8-Bit games anyway.... I thought all games had to have depth and wicked awesome graphics.


Oh, and hey, by the way, did you know that for the time they were made, they were THE Deepest and Most immersive games around? Including storyline? Compared to the stories to other NES games (save the princess) you get a story that fills up 2 pages in the original manuals. That's just LoZ. AoL had more story too.

And the POINT is that you don't know where to go. You're supposed to explore. That's the point of Zelda, and it always has been, except devs now believe (and they might be on to something) that gamers are too fuckin stupid to be able to explore and find shit on their own, so they have to hold their hand through the Entire Game. Do you Like Twilight Princess?

TP - I don't really remember anything I didn't like. The wii version's controls felt clunky, but I really enjoyed the GameCube version.

Yeah. Case Closed.


My only complaints lie with the newer 3-D games. They're too easy, dungeons are too short, and they hold your freakin hand the entire game. They don't let you explore, they're not side-quest even (Every game, needs to rival Majora's Mask on that one).

I swear, you could fit TP's Forest, Fire, and Water Temple inside of Level 9. As far as dungeon to player ratio goes.

Edited by Reflectionist, 09 October 2007 - 02:25 AM.

[spunky-monkey]

I can't seem to find any legitimate flaws to Link's Awakening so far, amazingly this game never annoyed me, not even once.

From a gameplay perspective, I hated the bug hunting sections as the Wolf. I hated the Twilight Realm, basically. The overworld was empty - where where the sprawling forests seen in earlier trailers?

The bug hunts and turning the netherworld back into normal Hyrule felt almost like the designers were paying homage to Metroid Prime 2 Echoes - that's really bizarre considering Retro Studios copied Nintendo's own light/dark world theme from A Link to the Past which is much older than either title.

Lastly, what happened to the animal/dungeon mechanic? Nintendo were always talking about having to communicate with animals to progress in dungeons, but the idea never really went past the first dungeon. I thought that was going to be a fundamental aspect, so I was very disappointed.

Oh, I'd completely forgotten they promised this in older interviews during TP's development. Initially I thought this Link would be called something like "Hero of Nature" and the gameplay mechanics would squarely revolve around the relationship between humans and animals. Come to think of it, Twilight Princess didn't even feature any central theme like Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask or Wind Waker had.

You can call them out as fast as you damn well want, the game is PAUSED when you select items. And why is making a game easier a good thing? Especially given one of your later points.

Unfortunately there's a momentarily gap of a split-second or two whenever you pause and resume the game; the window to hit Ganon while stunned is small enough so selecting the darn item sometimes robs the player the opportunity to strike before he recovers again.

I always feel the need to say this when people complain about TWW's overworld...There's islands. Stop at them. Also, Hyrule Field is just as if not more dull in OoT, horse or not.

If there was more land mass between destinations (covering about 2 or 3 grids ideally) then this wouldn't be a problem, the islands were just too small so the thrill of exploration doesn't last as long as you'd like.

I hate the kinstones with as much hate as one can muster.

http://hail-nekoyash...es-Bah-17419201

Oh yeah, another thing that annoyed me in Oracles, well it's nothing major, but it just didn't make much since was Bippin and Blossom's kid which starts off as baby and eventually grows up to be a young man over the course of the two games, while Link and everyone else doesn't age one bit. That was just a lapse of logic that didn't make sense, even by video game standards. I guess their son just miraculously ages faster than everyone else and matures mentally and emotionally fast too, which is just sad because he'll probably die an old man before his first birthday. Poor Bippin and Bloossom...

Wow you're right I completely forgot or ignored this; the couple's child "side-quest" or extra was utterly pointless and contributed nothing to the players progress - wonder what possessed Flagship to design and actually program it into the adventure?

Ugh, don't get me started on Twilight Princess. I just say I didn't like all the major retcons and the Oocca were an unwelcomed addition to the series that I much rather be without. Actually I did like Ooccoo (but not her son). I would have liked her more if they didn't go and God-mode her entire species.

Really? I didn't mind this so much SOAP, it actually made me laugh on the first play-through because it was meta-fiction within a video game (bloody awesome).

LttP - To me, the game is just boring. I personally think it's one of the worst in the series, because the puzzles all seem the same. I've never been able to get into the game, I get to the first dungeon after getting the master sword, get completely bored and quit.

Ah well, its a "love it" or "hate it" thing. Safely say most audiences from the 90s and onwards thoroughly enjoyed the challenge while a minority were turned off by the rising difficulty of the dungeons. In that respect at least, its impossible to please everyone. ^^

I always imagine Link in a scene like that. Volvagia is flying around Link's head, and he's like, "Ok, Navi, what am I supposed to do here?" And she goes "That cloud around Death Mountain looks odd... we should check it out" Link goes "Well, I suppose you're right, BUT I'M ALREADY HERE, FIGHTING THE BOSS!"

That example is pure gold. C: Thankfully this help-feature was vastly improved in time for Majora's Mask otherwise it'd be unbearable.

TP - Pretty good game altogether. Not enough Tingle.

Tingle didn't appear in Twilight Princess, thank goodness.

My only complaints lie with the newer 3-D games. They're too easy, dungeons are too short, and they hold your freakin hand the entire game. They don't let you explore, they're not side-quest even (Every game, needs to rival Majora's Mask on that one).

I concur and agree with eveything you said; it was dull of the level designers to guide the player through practically every single obstacle. Even though its 3-D you're told where to be at every single waking moment so the freedom of your adventure is negated.

EDIT: cut-and-paste screwed up again.

Edited by Ricky, 09 October 2007 - 05:33 AM.

[Fyxe]

Here's a flaw for LA - if you're playing the DX version, the extra bonuses you get from the secret dungeon are WAY overpowered, and you can get them as early as right after the second dungeon.

And on a similar note for both versions, both the Guardian Acorns and the Pieces of Power are also unbalanced, sometimes dropping right before a boss and allowing you to slaughter them in a few seconds.

Also on the DX version, it's impossible to complete the photo quest without stealing and being branded THIEF. Also, some of the photos are easy to miss and you can't go back and get them (such as the photo with Richard). Which is a bit of a shame, but a minor thing, it's not like you get anything for completing it.

There's also a glitch in the third dungeon that causes locked doors to appear in certain parts of the dungeon after you progress later in the game, but this isn't game breaking or anything.

Finally, it's a minor point, but the translation isn't as crisp as ALttP, but that is partially down to the limitations of the system, I'm sure. It's only 8-Bit.

However, aside from that I have no complaints about the game, it rivals ALttP as one of the best in the series in my opinion.

Edit: Also, Ricky, I have never noticed a delay with the item selection. The screen has to appear, but everything pauses while it does. I don't remember gameplay moving at any moment while the item selection is on the screen. Aside from that, you should simply select the Bow before you hit Ganon with the sword anyway, so meh.

Edited by Fyxe, 09 October 2007 - 06:23 AM.

[ShadyUltima]

Damn those games, being made in the 80's and not being able to compare to the depth of the games made in the 2000's. Where those silly Japanese people on the little white rock or what!?

The Nerve of them.... making shitty games, not even trying hard at all....

What the hell is with those 8-Bit games anyway.... I thought all games had to have depth and wicked awesome graphics.


Oh, and hey, by the way, did you know that for the time they were made, they were THE Deepest and Most immersive games around? Including storyline? Compared to the stories to other NES games (save the princess) you get a story that fills up 2 pages in the original manuals. That's just LoZ. AoL had more story too.

And the POINT is that you don't know where to go. You're supposed to explore. That's the point of Zelda, and it always has been, except devs now believe (and they might be on to something) that gamers are too fuckin stupid to be able to explore and find shit on their own, so they have to hold their hand through the Entire Game.


My only complaints lie with the newer 3-D games. They're too easy, dungeons are too short, and they hold your freakin hand the entire game. They don't let you explore, they're not side-quest even (Every game, needs to rival Majora's Mask on that one).

I swear, you could fit TP's Forest, Fire, and Water Temple inside of Level 9. As far as dungeon to player ratio goes.

Yea, I know that they were some of the best games in the 80's. And I still consider them pretty good, but walking around a square of 4 tiles because every other way is blocked, with only a sword and shield and no possible way to do anything is annoying. I explore a lot, but when you go up from where you start, can ONLY go left, then can ONLY go down, then can ONLY go down, and you're back where you started... that's dumb... You have to be able to... you know... PLAY the game to enjoy it?

Anyways, I think some of the time in the 3D games they give you too much help. Where LOZ and AOL tell you absolutely nothing, they tell you a little too much. They should drop small hints as to where to go.

Come to think of it, Twilight Princess didn't even feature any central theme like Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask or Wind Waker had.

Ah, yes, this is what I forgot about. I didn't like that either. Turning into a wolf and back again wasn't as useful as growing up or becoming young, or shape-shifting or even just changing the direction of the wind.

Ah well, its a "love it" or "hate it" thing. Safely say most audiences from the 90s and onwards thoroughly enjoyed the challenge while a minority were turned off by the rising difficulty of the dungeons. In that respect at least, its impossible to please everyone. ^^

It wasn't that it was overly hard. I find LOZ a lot harder (mind you, LTTP actually gave some sort of clues as to where to go... I just thought all the dungeons were the same. Now, it's been a while since I played it, but I recall all the dungeons looking the same (or very similar) and the puzzles all seemed to be the same. I suppose in reality most Zelda puzzles are the same. Either hit a switch, move blocks or kill all the enemies, but LTTP each puzzle seemed exactly like the last one.. and I didn't like that. There just wasn't enough variety.

That example is pure gold. C: Thankfully this help-feature was vastly improved in time for Majora's Mask otherwise it'd be unbearable.

I agree. Tatl was a MUCH better companion for a few reasons. Aside from the fact that she didn't ALWAYS tell you where to go (even when you were THERE) she had some humour as well, like when she would make fun of you a bit. I also liked the sound change. From 'HEY! LISTEN' to just a little, pleasant sounding chime. Tatl did have on flaw though. When you were targeting an enemy, and you really had no idea how to beat it, she would only give a vague hint, and you'd get killed. My first playthrough was like that. Especially against the Swamp Temple boss. I never knew what to do. Actually, I'm playing the game right now (well not RIGHT now) and I still don't remember how to beat that guy. I just throw a few bombs and slash him if he gets close. I think I'm supposed to use the deku flower in the middle, but I don't know exactly what I'm supposed to do.

[Fyxe]

I explore a lot, but when you go up from where you start, can ONLY go left, then can ONLY go down, then can ONLY go down, and you're back where you started... that's dumb... You have to be able to... you know... PLAY the game to enjoy it?

What ARE you talking about?

Either hit a switch, move blocks or kill all the enemies, but LTTP each puzzle seemed exactly like the last one.. and I didn't like that. There just wasn't enough variety.

Well, you're wrong.

Actually, I'm playing the game right now (well not RIGHT now) and I still don't remember how to beat that guy. I just throw a few bombs and slash him if he gets close. I think I'm supposed to use the deku flower in the middle, but I don't know exactly what I'm supposed to do.

Use your Bow. Shoot him. It stuns him. Then it's obvious what to do. The Bomb Flowers are for killing the moths and stuff he sends after you; they gather around the light and then it blows up.

Edited by Fyxe, 09 October 2007 - 08:12 AM.

[Masamune]

TP - Pretty good game altogether. Not enough Tingle.

Tingle didn't appear in Twilight Princess, thank goodness.

... it's jerks like you who made me have to spend $55 on importing Tingle's Rupeeland because we're not as awesome as Europeans!

Bah, I say!

[Reflectionist]

Yea, I know that they were some of the best games in the 80's. And I still consider them pretty good, but walking around a square of 4 tiles because every other way is blocked, with only a sword and shield and no possible way to do anything is annoying. I explore a lot, but when you go up from where you start, can ONLY go left, then can ONLY go down, then can ONLY go down, and you're back where you started... that's dumb... You have to be able to... you know... PLAY the game to enjoy it?

Um, I seem to recall being able to explore the entire overworld as soon as you start... assuming you're good enough to not get yourself killed. And even then, it's not a game design problem, that's a you suck problem.

http://www.gamefaqs....le/563433/12694

It looks like, the very first screen you start on, you can go left, up, or right, or in the cave. If you go up, you can go 2 ways, left or right. If you opted to go left, you can go two ways, up or continue left. Or, if you opted to go Right, you can go up, or continue to go right.

God damn to hell this restricting game.

[Masamune]

Aside from The Wind Waker (once you get to a certain point in the game), The Legend of Zelda is pretty much the most nonlinear game in the series. You can beat dungeons out of order. You can go ANYWHERE from the very beginning... Every other Zelda game uses a Metroid-esque system to keep you progressing in an order dependent on your inventory (or worse, plot movements). That's one of Zelda's strengths, really. It's a shame that developers feel a need to keep gamers on the straight and narrow in games.

[Reflectionist]

Aside from The Wind Waker (once you get to a certain point in the game), The Legend of Zelda is pretty much the most nonlinear game in the series. You can beat dungeons out of order. You can go ANYWHERE from the very beginning... Every other Zelda game uses a Metroid-esque system to keep you progressing in an order dependent on your inventory (or worse, plot movements). That's one of Zelda's strengths, really. It's a shame that developers feel a need to keep gamers on the straight and narrow in games.

Oh my God... Twilight Princess was the worst about that, too. It was like "Okay, well, I just cleared the Water Temple, got the clawshot... now I can go around and get a few things, and then I'll go to the next dungeon. Oh, look, I got the spinner now, I think I'll go now to all the spinner tracks and whatnot." Even the sidequest stuff was very linear. You almost had to do it like that to beat it 100%, or you'd get confused and not know what you'd gotten and what you didn't.

However, I wouldn't mind a game that your inventory defined where you could go..... as long as it makes sense (like passing into Gerudo Desert in OoT, of course you can't cross a huge freakin chasm without something to get you across, be it horse, or longshot), just as long as you could get those items required for exploration anytime you want, with enough exploration, or something. Does that make sense?

Like, the way the hookshot was hidden in OoT, when you first became an adult, that's great. I like that, but it was a requirement anyway, to do that. You had to get it right as soon as you got woken up or you couldn't do anything in the game. At all. Would've been nice if you could get it at any time in the game.

And I don't really mind the overworld with the 'areas' as long as there's a logical way of entering them. It's pretty dumb to have a town in a clearing in a cliff where there's only one entrance to the town. Obviously man made towns, like, Hyrule Castle Town, yeah, that makes sense, because it's man made, and people are stupid.

But definitely should have more than one entrance. Take LttP's Kakariko Village for example.

Edited by Reflectionist, 09 October 2007 - 11:44 AM.

[ShadyUltima]

Um, I seem to recall being able to explore the entire overworld as soon as you start... assuming you're good enough to not get yourself killed. And even then, it's not a game design problem, that's a you suck problem.

http://www.gamefaqs....le/563433/12694

It looks like, the very first screen you start on, you can go left, up, or right, or in the cave. If you go up, you can go 2 ways, left or right. If you opted to go left, you can go two ways, up or continue left. Or, if you opted to go Right, you can go up, or continue to go right.

God damn to hell this restricting game.

So... you don't understand... exaggeration?

[Fyxe]

For what purpose did you exaggerate? Everyone who's played the game knows that TLoZ is the least linear Zelda game, yet your comment seemed to imply that it was linear, exaggeration or not. But it's not. So what's your point?

[Reflectionist]

Um, I seem to recall being able to explore the entire overworld as soon as you start... assuming you're good enough to not get yourself killed. And even then, it's not a game design problem, that's a you suck problem.

http://www.gamefaqs....le/563433/12694

It looks like, the very first screen you start on, you can go left, up, or right, or in the cave. If you go up, you can go 2 ways, left or right. If you opted to go left, you can go two ways, up or continue left. Or, if you opted to go Right, you can go up, or continue to go right.

God damn to hell this restricting game.

So... you don't understand... exaggeration?

I think it's very clear you don't understand exaggeration, sarcasm, evidence, or humor, for that matter. :-)

Edited by Reflectionist, 09 October 2007 - 12:21 PM.

[ShadyUltima]

For what purpose did you exaggerate? Everyone who's played the game knows that TLoZ is the least linear Zelda game, yet your comment seemed to imply that it was linear, exaggeration or not. But it's not. So what's your point?

No, that's not what I meant at all. It's overly linear, with no explanation, and no hints at where to go at all. I was exaggerating at the point that it seems like you're walking in circles over and over because you have no idea if you're supposed to go north, east, w/e. Personally, I just can't stand any of the Pre-OOT Zelda games. I own all of them (except LA) and I can't complete them because I get bored. And its rare that I get bored of a game.

[Fyxe]

Some people simply have no appreciation of context.

[Reflectionist]

For what purpose did you exaggerate? Everyone who's played the game knows that TLoZ is the least linear Zelda game, yet your comment seemed to imply that it was linear, exaggeration or not. But it's not. So what's your point?

No, that's not what I meant at all. It's overly linear, with no explanation, and no hints at where to go at all. I was exaggerating at the point that it seems like you're walking in circles over and over because you have no idea if you're supposed to go north, east, w/e. Personally, I just can't stand any of the Pre-OOT Zelda games. I own all of them (except LA) and I can't complete them because I get bored. And its rare that I get bored of a game.

How is it Linear??? It's the most unlinear game I've ever played in my life. You can go anywhere you want to in the entire game from the start. The only restriction you have is the strong enemies that'll kill you very quickly, and the fact that you can't access Level 9 until you get all of the Triforce pieces.

You can start the game, and go to the levels in any order that you want.

[D~N]

Uggh, you know what I hate about the game-design of Zelda? The Sword and Shield, and the green tunic. I mean, gosh, it's so bad.

Seriously, though, here's my list:

LoZ - nothing, this game is perfect. I don't care if a game is linear or not, I just mean the length, difficulty (they nailed the difficulty in this one) and fun factor. It really is fun, to this day, to just wander the overworld. That's the sign of a fun game.

AoL - Perhaps too difficult, and the new design isn't perfect. They had the right idea, but what killed them was the graphical limitations. If this game was remade with today's technology, with edge-grabbing and propper sword combat, it would be killer. Think "Super Smash Brother adventure game" and that's what this would be.

ALttP - The design was good...However, the execution was not. The sword swinging was frequently annoying, item usage was difficult, and the overworld and dungeons were both boring and overcrowded at the same time. Overcrowded with boring things, you might say. The puzzles, though inovative as they were, were simply a boroque "push the block, shoot the target" series of puzzles. Which is great, because the Zelda games have expanded on that immensely. But, they didn't really get it right "the first time" in this game...maybe down the road, in LA or OoT, they perfected it. But the whole thing really feels like an early test version of a game...too many good ideas that aren't really up to the standard.

LA - still playing, but I love it. Maybe the fact that is linear, but not guided enough, is hurting it. See, if a game is non-linear, then you don't want a guide. But when a game IS linear, and you need to complete event A to unlock envent B to reach temple C, you kind of need to be pointed in the direction of A. Nevertheless, a good game thus far, and I'm sure it only gets better.

OoT - The only thing that hinders this game is the fanbase that worships it. Otherwise, it is just as good as LoZ.

OoX - To be updated later...

edit-hit submit to early...bah, now it'll look like this until I'm done editing...
edit2-still need to add more games...I'll come back to this in a bit.

Edited by D~N, 09 October 2007 - 04:24 PM.

[thaneoffife]

You can go anywhere you want to in the entire game from the start.

Objection! You can't actually go everywhere until you have the raft.

On topic:

LoZ: I have no real problems with it.

AoL: Having to restart at the one palace every time is a real pain until you get the hammer. But again, not too bad.

aLttP: I'm not sure why, but for some reason this one doesn't stick in my memory. The dungeons seem kind of forgettable (not the themes, just the dungeons). The way that the sword doesn't stick out straight when you hold down the button irks me, but I won't count it as a major flaw.

LA: One of my personal favorites, I really can see nothing wrong with it. Perhaps that B ends conversations rather than speeding them up, but that doesn't annoy me too much.

OoT: The world lacks the feeling of life after a certain point, and everything kind of stagnates. It would, for example, be nice to see the world change after the completion of the Water and Spirit Temples.

MM: Nothing that comes easily to mind. The whole three day aspect is intimidating at first, but that disappears quickly.

Oracles: Same as LttP, the dungeons aren't particularly memorable. Unlike the other people here, I enjoy watching that kid grow up.

WW: Not having a warp point near the Forsaken Fortress is the only thing that really irritates me about this game. If I have to go there so many times, couldn't you at least make it quick?

TP: This one is both too linear and lacking in tension, particularly the latter. Sure, it's tense at first, but then the Twilight disappears and the people of Hyrule Castle Town don't even notice the giant force field around the castle.

FSA: Nothing major comes to mind.

TMC: The challenge seems off here. When it's easy, it's really easy. When it's hard, it's really hard. It seems to lack that happy medium between the two.

[Fyxe]

I've resisted somewhat, but I have to stand up for ALttP, fighting against the tide of fools who wouldn't know a good game if it blew their mask off and shot an arrow into the gem on their head.

The sword swinging was frequently annoying,

How? Explain how. Explain how a sword motion that is nigh identical to virtually every 2D incarnation since is 'annoying'? Explain how, unlike LA, being able to hit someone who's coming at you from the northeast because Link actually using a proper sword swing is annoying?

item usage was difficult,

How. In what manner is it difficult, in any shape or form? Note that it uses the same item usage method as TLoZ, and the only difference from LA is that you can't get rid of the sword but who does that anyway.

and the overworld and dungeons were both boring and overcrowded at the same time. Overcrowded with boring things, you might say.

What, like enemies, as opposed to OoT which had bushes. I'm sorry, but you're talking poo.

The puzzles, though inovative as they were, were simply a boroque "push the block, shoot the target" series of puzzles.

But... They weren't. Don't you morons who keep saying that get it? So what if the method involves pushing a block? It's how the puzzle actually works that's the important thing. I will say this very clearly. THE BLOCK IS JUST AN INPUT MECHANISM. Take the major puzzle in the Ice Palace. You have to push a block in a way that makes you think which block you need to push, which way you need to push it and most importantly, how to reach it.

What makes the dungeons in ALttP good is the layout. Unlike OoT, the dungeons are not linear. They involve going back on yourself and discovering new routes, and even new ways to enter the dungeon.

Oh, and aside from that, there are plenty of puzzles in ALttP that don't require merely pushing a block or killing enemies, so the next person who says that can go shove their head up the backside of a camel for just being plain wrong.

But the whole thing really feels like an early test version of a game...too many good ideas that aren't really up to the standard.

You clearly have absolutely no idea of the jump between the NES games and ALttP. No idea whatsoever, despite claiming TLoZ as your favourite.

Ahhhh, I can go back to calmness now. Consider yourself ranted at, D~N. That's hit my rant quota for the week. It's lower than it used to be!

Edited by Fyxe, 09 October 2007 - 04:53 PM.

[Selena]

Ahem. No need to call anyone a moron over a video game. Thank you.


I don't generally have many complaints about Zelda in regards to game design... at least nothing major. In Majora, it was a bit of a pain to have work through things again after each time reset, but I can understand why it was implemented. Just slightly annoying and time consuming. Ocarina... can't really think of anything beyond Navi. Because she successfully annoys everyone in my family, even if they aren't paying attention to the television while I'm playing. "Hey! Listen!" is usually followed by "Can't you just shoot that damn thing already?" in my household.

2D Zelda games. I really don't know why, but I've never been able to finish a single one. Have played most, but never got terribly far because, as is the common complaint in this thread so far, I found them absolutely boring. I'm actually still trying to figure out why I've never been able to get into them. It's not a gameplay issue, even though I find overhead a bit awkward. But the Mana games are presented in a similar fashion, and I liked the few games in that series that I've had a chance to play. So not gameplay. Nor is it graphics or the fact that it's a 2D adventure, because some of my favorite adventure games are old school.

I used to complain that it was because after the intros, no matter how well done, the plot became forgettable or non-existent amongst all the dungeon crawling. Thus there was nothing to motivate me forward. But after playing Shadow of the Colossus, in which the plot is purposefully shallow, that theory went out the window. Because relatively plotless SotC is very awesome. And Quest for Glory 1 is still fun, despite not really having any real plot other than 'slay stuff and become a hero.' So I'm still wondering why I'm so unimpressed with the 2D Zelda games. Maybe it's something to do with immersion and atmosphere. I don't know.