117 replies to this topic

[spunky-monkey]

I can beat Moldorm without falling off once, so, skill is definitely involved. XP And every boss in Zelda easy if you just have Bottles full of Fairies, that's just freakin' cheap. Ya wuss. ¬.¬

I'm not a hypocontriac Zelda player, just when I see a fairy I have to put it in a bottle, that's all. XP

[LionHarted]

And yes, people, ALttP didn't make you walk on ceilings or anything quite like that, but those are just stylish (and a little advanced for the time ALttP was released, don't you think? Have some sense of context), rather than sophisticated. As much as I love Stone Tower Temple (and I do, I think it's ace), all it really is is two dungeons in one. Clever, but nothing overly complex. You only have to flick between the two once to get to the end.

1) I wasn't talking about Stone Tower. Fancy that.
2) "Advanced", for the purposes of this thread, is basically the same as "sophisticated", isn't it?

ALttP is not Zelda's god.

LoZ is.

[Masamune]

I remember when I was young, I could never beat Moldorm. I let the game sit for a year or more before I tried to beat it again and made it past Moldorm. Good times!

Anyways, Mothula is the real bastard of the game, unless you have a few green potions to keep your Fire Rod powered up.

Trinexx used to be hard for me too. But then I recently (and I mean like, last few years or so!) learned you could hurt his other heads beyond just hitting it with the opposite rod over and over. Imagine my surprise that you could beat Turtle Rock without bringing a few Green Potions in advance.

Edited by Masamune, 11 October 2007 - 12:06 PM.

[CID Farwin]

Moldorm...

I'm glad that they fixed that in FSA. I almost wet myself until I figured out you didn't have to start over every time.

Mothula is spawn of Satan.
That guy still gives me trouble.

I'm not complaining, though. It's nice to have a boss that's still hard.

[Fyxe]

1) I wasn't talking about Stone Tower. Fancy that.

Then the only dungeon I can think of is Goron Mines, which I would say yes, it's one of the better dungeons in the 3D games, it's just a shame that walking on the ceiling takes so long. Realistic, of course, but even so, it can get tedious.

2) "Advanced", for the purposes of this thread, is basically the same as "sophisticated", isn't it?

Not really. Advanced in technical ability isn't the same as being sophisticated. What I mean by sophisticated is utilising the abilities of the console in a very careful manner that makes more of what you'd expect. Walking on the ceiling is just a 'gimmick' rather than 'complex'. That doesn't make it bad, but it doesn't make it use much brain power either.

ALttP is not Zelda's god.

LoZ is.

I never said it was. But it's the god of everything we recognise over and over in the series. While elements of TLoZ have been ignored entirely, nigh everything in ALttP has been reused ad infinium, simply because it worked so well that it's hard not to.

Masamune, I was the same, I thought you had to use the rod, I didn't realise that hitting them made them weak to the sword. So much easier when you know that. ^^ But that's what I like about the ALttP bosses. For some bosses there's a standard method (like using the Magic Hammer on the Helmasaur King) and then there's a slightly more advanced method (using Bombs). TLoZ was the same to some degree. This is fairly rare in later Zeldas, however.

[Masamune]

If bombs is the advanced method for beating Helmasaur King, then I rock. I always did that to beat him. When I was a kid... I never thought of the hammer as a weapon...

But generally it's like that in later games because there's an unspoken rule that the item in the dungeon has to be used to beat that boss or at least be effective against. And while that is certainly nice to see the tools put to good use, it makes the bosses a bit easier to beat when you already have an idea what weapon to use. That's why sub-bosses and out-of-dungeon bosses are great.

On the subject of weapons, that's a grievance I have against Twilight Princess. You get some pimpin' items (dual Clawshots, Ball and Chain, Spinner) but discover they have extremely limited use. Phantom Hourglass on the other hand doesn't have that many pimpin' items, but has been brilliant at using existing items in new exciting ways - and importantly - continuing to make them useful. Some items can perform the same task, but you'll always need your items to get to certain areas. Yeah, even the shovel.

[LionHarted]

Then the only dungeon I can think of is Goron Mines, which I would say yes, it's one of the better dungeons in the 3D games, it's just a shame that walking on the ceiling takes so long. Realistic, of course, but even so, it can get tedious.

Which is why I abuse the glitch.

Of course, I don't think it made it into the PAL version. :/

Advanced in technical ability isn't the same as being sophisticated.

In that case, none of the Zelda series is very sophisticated in its puzzle works.

But it's the god of everything we recognise over and over in the series.

Hardly. xD

Just because ALttP did a lot of stuff first (colored crystal switches; pit traps; shovel; etc.) doesn't even close to mean it did it all best.

Edited by LionHarted, 11 October 2007 - 03:11 PM.

[Arturo]

It is in PAL version, I did it as well ^^

[CID Farwin]

Side note: What is this glitch?

[LionHarted]

It's possible, in early copies of the game, to walk around on magnetic surfaces without the Iron Boots.

[Reflectionist]

It's possible, in early copies of the game, to walk around on magnetic surfaces without the Iron Boots.

How?

[Kairu Hakubi]

This is a pretty bizarre thread.. everybody in a zelda forum bashing zelda games? o.O

[Chiaki]

That and I really don't like how Link looks. It's what turned me off to TWW in the first place and I still never really liked his TWW Look. I didn't like his hair, his eyes, his long arms, and short, stubby legs and ridiculously tiny feet. To me, he just look like a big-headed chimp with pig-feet and a yellow horn on the side of his head. I don't really mind how the NPC's looked, even with all the flat-chested women, but TWW Link's look just kinda cut me off from the player experience because he was just so freakish looking I couldn't identify with him like I would with OoT Link and TP Link. BUUUUUUUUUUUT since I only saw TWW Link from behind like 70% of the time it was no big deal. He looked pretty much the same as OoT kid Link from behind.... except for that annoying "horn" that I kept wanting to snip off...

I liked Link's character design just fine, it was the NPC designs that made me embarrassed to play the game with other people in the room. XP I wish all the other characters were a cute as Link, and Tetra, and Aryll.

Anyway, the things that annoy me:

LOZ: Way too hard for me, and it wasn't even that fun to play. I finished it once, and that was enough.

AoL: Again, way too freaking hard. Couldn't even get to the first boss.

ALttP: I haven't played it in awhile, and I didn't like the single item thing (especially with the three headed boss that you have to use the Fire Rod and Ice Rod to defeat). I remember it being really tough when I first tried playing it on my own, but like with every other game, you eventually memorize each dungeon. Um, can't think of anything else right now...

LA: Again with it being hard to figure out at first, but no major flaws other than that. Though I still haven't momorized the Secret Shell locations, and I still get stuck on later dungeons.

OoT: I think this was just about everyone's favorite game at one time or another. I couldn't get enough of it when I first played, but now...its just boring. The minigames and side quests still entertain me a bit, but for the most part, its just not as fun anymore. As for game design annoyances...I don't like a lot of the character designs...theres a lot of small ones, but really no huge ones.

MM: Again, haven't played this game in forever. I do remember disliking the going back in time thing...I always felt bad because all the nice things I'd done for people were erased, plus I'd always tried to figure out how my rupees were still at the bank, but the ones I'd had on me were gone (kinda like in OoT, when you'd defeat Ganondorf in the future, but then return to the past and he's defeated then, too.)

Oracles: I've never played either one all the way through, and of course, its never complete if you don't connect the two and get the final ending, something that I could never do. Plus getting to dungeons was often hard, as well as the dungeons themselves.

FSA: Loved this game. I still think a 3D FS game needs to exist...no real drawbacks with this title, really, unless you want to count the lack of free roaming.

WW: As I said before, I really don't like most of the character designs (MAN I really want to work for Nintendo! There will be NO cheesy character designs on my watch!) Plus, sailing on an ocean is much more restrictive than riding a horse. Plus its a constant reminder that you're not in Hyrule, beacause Hyrule is gone, and that sucks.

TP: I admit, it could've had more side quests, even a trading sequence, and more minigames. And more hidden caves/labyrinths. Character designs were a lot better, I think, with of course the exception of Fyre and Falbi, and to a slightly lesser extent, Ooccoo and her son.

Everyone has different tastes to satisfy though, so of course no one agrees all the time. Some people prefer the old school titles, some like whichever is newest.

[Kwicky Koala]

All I can say after reading this thread is... there's no accounting for taste. Everyone has a different opinion on the good and the bad Zelda games... its good that a variety of debate exists, although it still annoys me when people say things I don't agree with. : /

[Showsni]

plus I'd always tried to figure out how my rupees were still at the bank, but the ones I'd had on me were gone (kinda like in OoT, when you'd defeat Ganondorf in the future, but then return to the past and he's defeated then, too.)

The man stamps you when you deposit/withdraw money, right? That stamp goes back in time with you, and it's that that he uses to see how much you've got saved up. So if you deposit 1,000 rupees, he'll stamp that your account has 1,000 rupees on you. Go back in time, and he sees the stamp and believes you've still got 1,000 rupees in there. Actually, of course, you;re just stealing from the bank, since it's not your money that he's giving you.

[Masamune]

Yeah. I always loved that bank. Really the three day limit works in your favor because you can rake up a ton of Rupees.

Which is what Tingle's Rupeeland needed!

Edited by Masamune, 14 October 2007 - 12:50 AM.

[Chiaki]

plus I'd always tried to figure out how my rupees were still at the bank, but the ones I'd had on me were gone (kinda like in OoT, when you'd defeat Ganondorf in the future, but then return to the past and he's defeated then, too.)

The man stamps you when you deposit/withdraw money, right? That stamp goes back in time with you, and it's that that he uses to see how much you've got saved up. So if you deposit 1,000 rupees, he'll stamp that your account has 1,000 rupees on you. Go back in time, and he sees the stamp and believes you've still got 1,000 rupees in there. Actually, of course, you;re just stealing from the bank, since it's not your money that he's giving you.

Uhhhh......I suppose why does the stamp stay with you, but not your money...? XD WeSo, does everyone who uses the bank have the same stamp, and theres just a huge pile of money there for people to withdraw? That doesn't sound efficiant. :/

[spunky-monkey]

I remembered what annoys me about Link's Awakening...picking up a Piece of Power or Guardian Acorn by accident, early in the adventure getting one is a refreshing concept to obtain a temporary boost, but later it happens so often when you cut through grass or kill a monster you have to read that bloody unskippable text over, and over again. Let me demonstrate:-

You've got a
Guardian Acorn! It
will reduce the
damage you take by
half!

You got a Piece
of Power! You can feel
the energy flowing
through you!

...hooray! >.>

Uhhhh......I suppose why does the stamp stay with you, but not your money...? XD WeSo, does everyone who uses the bank have the same stamp, and theres just a huge pile of money there for people to withdraw? That doesn't sound efficiant. :/

A required evil which is all down to gameplay mechanics; you see its necessary for Quest items, the ability to use Power Keg, and riding Epona to transcend the 3 day time-travel otherwise completing Majora's Mask is virtually impossible. This also plays an important element of the storyline as after the Moon is destroyed we see everything Link accomplished in the full ending (with all masks).

Edited by Ricky, 16 October 2007 - 03:23 AM.

[Kairu Hakubi]

Yeah I always kinda wondered about that one. There's some neat magic going on there, since most likely on your game-beating 3-day-cycle you didn't do ANY of the quest stuff, let alone ALL of it. I guess most of the troubles are Majora's-Mask-related, so if you just got rid of the falling moon and all the curses, everything would be ok all at once, but it wouldn't be ok the very next day... hrmm.. ^^' kinda like how I figure the end of OoT goes.. everything's magically ok even tho you went back in time no more g-dorf.

[Tekky]

A Wizard did it. Yes. (or we can pretend the goddess of time waved her magic finger and everything was ok!)

[Showsni]

It's like Groundhog Day. Does he really find time to do everything that last run through?
(And by the time he's that good at playing the piano, surely the teacher wouldn't say "he's my pupil" as in that day, all she's given him are a few polishers for what must be a practically perfect performance already?)
Well, everything ends happily, that's the important thing.

[Fyxe]

(And by the time he's that good at playing the piano, surely the teacher wouldn't say "he's my pupil" as in that day, all she's given him are a few polishers for what must be a practically perfect performance already?)

I think the joke was that she was surprised how good he was in like, a day, and thus telling everyone that he was her pupil so she could feel proud and take credit. He probably faked being worse than he was at the start of lessons anyway.

...Yes, I love Groundhog Day. XP

[Chiaki]

Uhhhh......I suppose why does the stamp stay with you, but not your money...? XD WeSo, does everyone who uses the bank have the same stamp, and theres just a huge pile of money there for people to withdraw? That doesn't sound efficiant. :/

A required evil which is all down to gameplay mechanics; you see its necessary for Quest items, the ability to use Power Keg, and riding Epona to transcend the 3 day time-travel otherwise completing Majora's Mask is virtually impossible. This also plays an important element of the storyline as after the Moon is destroyed we see everything Link accomplished in the full ending (with all masks).

Yeah...you could go crazy trying to scientifically explain everytjing in these games @.@

[Kairu Hakubi]

Which is why I have no problem saying that OoT ends with a single timeline, in which you're young but the Dorfman is sealed anyway. It's part of that.

[FDL]

I haven't been in here in a while, but this is an interesting topic.


LOZ: I guess the only complaints I have that are justifiable is that the candle only works once or twice on each screen and the fact that bombable walls have nothing to indicate them as such.

AoL: Meh, hard to complain about this one as well.

ALttP: I actually think this had too many dungeons. It sorta almost cheapened some stuff, but I guess it ended up working.

LA: I hate the fact that you're called THIEF for whole game if you steal even once. No game should designed in such a way that you can't everything in the game without ruining your file in some way.

OoT: I don't like how you have to do the Forest Stage before you become an adult or you get nothing. Hyrule Field is somewhat bland. For a world "overrun by monsters" there are actually less in the adult time's field. The sword controls aren't as responsive as they'd later be.

MM: I can't think of a true "flaw" for this game. I only wish it were longer.

Oracle Series: These games are decent, but overall I just don't like them as much as the other games.

TWW: It's way too easy, and I don't like the controls very much. I also don't like the tedious figurine quest. Another thing I dislike is the fact that the parts of the story not involving Ganondorf and Hyrule aren't that great. I really would've liked more of an explanation on the transition between the sea and Hyrule and I didn't like how the King ended up being the one to save the day, Link didn't really even need to beat Ganon. But the biggest problem I have is that the sea wasn't really all that well put together. PH actually did it better. I hate the fact that I don't like this game more, though. I think that's why I'm so passionately against much of it, is that I had believed it would be my favorite game. I never quite recovered from the letdown.

FSA: The story should have been more clear on it's connections with OoT, ALttP, and TWW. Apparently, Miyamoto's to blame.

TMC: Kinstones were sorta dumb, the figurines bothered me.

TP: The game was way too easy, combat-wise, though I think the controls are better than any other game's controls. There were too few side quests. The game really needed a town/village that was the equivalent of what Clocktown/Windfall/Kakariko was for other games. A central hub in which you'd find many townspeople. Also, while I thought the vagueness was interesting it would've probably fit better into the overall storyline of Zelda if they had more clearly explained it's connections with OoT. Also, the ending sucked, and is pretty much the reason why people are unsure about all this timeline stuff.

PH:I disliked the story immensely, and I wasn't big on the dungeon design either.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 22 October 2007 - 07:46 AM.

[Xkeeper]

LoZ1: They could've really done something better with the dungeons (predefined rooms with predefined columns = "Hey, this looks familiar!"), but squeezing three massive maps into 128k + programming, graphics, and other crap would've probably been a tiiiiny bit difficult.

AoL: HATE. Yes, let's make the leveling system take forever and make it a pain in the ass with only 3 lives and having to restart from the middle of nowhere every time you die. Perfect, Nintendo. Gold star. Lack of warping made it a real blast, too. I played this up to the second dungeon or so before I got tired of it and turned it off permanently.

LttP: Intereresting, but the music samples sounded like they were played underwater. After seeing what they did to Link's Awakening in half the space with a crappier sound processor, rather disappointing. (One track for all dungeons? Gets old fast.) Fun to play every now and then, I guess.

Link's Awakening: I honestly can't find any faults in this game. I love it dearly, and it's one of my all time favorite games. Just enough FedEx to keep the game from "let's go to next dungeon. ok done, next dungeon", enough plot to be interesting without requiring heavy doses of plot sponge, and, well, it just rocks.

OoT / MM: Grab your flamethrowers, this game hasn't been played by me.

TWW: Not this either. Uh oh.

Minish Cap: 4 short dungeons, an annoying-as-all-hell "hat", and voice samples? Oh god no. I found it rather easy and uninteresting on the whole; everything was obvious except the final boss (which I still managed to beat before dying, with 1/4 of a heart left).. and even then. Meh.

Oracle/Seasons: Whee, fun moblin slashing time go go. Fun, long, interesting, but in dire need of a little less FedEx. Nothing too challenging or difficult, at least.
Oracle/Ages: This game has a lot -- a lot -- of FedEx dungeon delayers. Way, way too much, to the point where it becomes "Okay, dungeon done, time for an hour long sidequest so I can actually get to the next one". There's a point where it just gets aggrivating, running around doing everything. Not good, but not bad.

Phantom Hourglass: I stopped playing after the first "real" dungeon. "Hey, let's throw in a billion gimmicks!" "Let's remove the old-style controls just because we can!" Yeah, screw you. BMF's played it further and enjoys it somewhat, but I just get aggrivated. Maybe it's because I'm a lefty who prefers, you know, the d-pad. Whatever.

Twilight Princess: Fun. Interesting. Something different (for someone who hasn't played a 3D Zelda before). I got somewhere into it (before the Water/Zora dungeon) before I had to move, and never played it again... regaining progress sucks. Pretty good, at least, and from watching my sister beat it it's actually a pretty fun game. (Consideirng she actually beat it says a lot right there.)

[Tekky]

One track for all dungeons? Gets old fast

That is currently my major grievance with PH at the moment... GAH

[FDL]

Yeah, I forgot to mention that. I agree about both those games.

[Chaltab]

LoZ - Complete lack of direction. I like freedom, but I also hate wondering around for hours because I have no idea where to go.

AoL - STOP STARTING ME AT THE NORTH CASTLE! START ME WHERE I SAVED AT!

LttP - Single Item slot. Minor gripe due to growing up on Ocarina and Majora.

LA - Not played enough of it.

OoT - Nothing really stands out as annoying.

MM - Loss of ammunition when time traveling.

Oracles - No complaints about Ages. Seasons was a bit too fighting-centric.

FS - Never played.

TWW - Triforce Quest. On one hand the islands where you find the maps were often good fun, but pulling the pieces up from the depths was not.

FSA - Final dungeon's first room. I hated that room.

TMC - Only wish it were longer.

TP - A bit too linear, not enough uses for the wolf.

PH - No option for standard controls. I despised the stylus controls at first, though they've grown on me.

[Xkeeper]

LoZ - Complete lack of direction. I like freedom, but I also hate wondering around for hours because I have no idea where to go.

If by this you mean the overworld, the manual (I think) included an overworld map, that listed a lot of the things on it -- usually with "?"s, but still gave you an idea where to go. Back then, a piece of paper was a lot cheaper than more ROM space and bigger games, so...

It's what gave me the initial help I needed when I played that game, at least.