117 replies to this topic

[Showsni]

LoZ: I must admit, I get lost an awful lot. Really, I should draw a map or something as I go, but in practice I've probably spent hours wandering in circles looking for the third dungeon (or something). It's not really a fault of the game; but being too open ended is a little daunting sometimes.

AoL: No complaints here, though I hate Moas with a passion.

ALttP: It doesn't really stick out for me; but maybe that's becasue I haven't played through it recently. Doing the mirror thing and landing halfway up a ledge and getting sent back is a little annoying, I guess.

LA: It's like Mary Poppins.

OoT: I can't think of anything. Waiting for song animations can be a little annoying, I suppose.

MM: Having to restock on unimportant items every time you time travel is a tad annoying, but not very much.

OoX: They're both good. I've never been inspired enough to try and get every ring, though.

TWW: Can't think of much here... Except the figurines. Having to do them one at a time, wait a whole day, and with a limit of three pictures on a roll of film... I can't really be bothered.

FS: Impossible to play.

FSA: No real issues. Fun with my brother helping me.

TMC: Kind of odd world design... Well, the map screen, anyway. I'd like more normal world/Minish world interaction, I think... Using the shrinking better.

TP: Pretty good.

F-PTRR: As Masa says, some indication of price would be nice. I save and reload a lot.

And Aba leaves her (adopted) father a bit readily... Maybe that further develops later in the game, though.

Oh, and this goes for FSA, TMC, OoX, and maybe others... stop reusing characters! I don't want to see Malon in five different games!

[Hana-Nezumi]

LA: It's like Mary Poppins.

I have to ask... How is it like Mary Poppins? o.O

[Showsni]

Practically perfect in every way.

[ShadyUltima]

How is it Linear??? It's the most unlinear game I've ever played in my life. You can go anywhere you want to in the entire game from the start. The only restriction you have is the strong enemies that'll kill you very quickly, and the fact that you can't access Level 9 until you get all of the Triforce pieces.

You can start the game, and go to the levels in any order that you want.

Heh, oops. I just realized, I meant to say it was overly non-linear. I apologize.

Oh, and this goes for FSA, TMC, OoX, and maybe others... stop reusing characters! I don't want to see Malon in five different games!

I completely agree with this, and it's also my reason for saying that the Capcom Zelda's shouldn't be as credible in the timeline of the Zelda series because of it. If Malon is in FSA, and they claim TMC is long, long, long before. Then either that family is really weird and has people who look identical generation after generation... or they're just putting her in because they think she's a crowd favourite.

The only Malon should be in OoT, and any games featuring that Link. Romani makes sense, as Termina is an alternate world of Hyrule.

[D~N]

Ahhhh, I can go back to calmness now. Consider yourself ranted at, D~N. That's hit my rant quota for the week. It's lower than it used to be!

No, not at all! I'm glad someone here can rationally argue their points. On to the counter-retort...

How? Explain how. Explain how a sword motion that is nigh identical to virtually every 2D incarnation since is 'annoying'? Explain how, unlike LA, being able to hit someone who's coming at you from the northeast because Link actually using a proper sword swing is annoying?

Gladly-while it's great for hitting those northeartern enemies, (assuming he is facing to the right of the screen) it is difficult to hit the eniemies directly in front of you, or slightly south-east. Most notable is the infamous hylian soldiers, who plagued the overworld. For some reason, I can't land a hit on those guys...maybe I just suck? Or maybe I would have prefered the LoZ "stabbing" meathod of sword swining. Seriously, sometimes I couldn't hit them for so long that I gave up and either ran away or resorted to spin-attacking. Not just the casual spin attack; no, like, an unnesesary amount of spinning. So perhaps the problem wasn't the attack method, but rather, the enemies themselves.

How. In what manner is it difficult, in any shape or form? Note that it uses the same item usage method as TLoZ, and the only difference from LA is that you can't get rid of the sword but who does that anyway.

Firstly, I will often swap out the sword. Especially during boss battles. However, I'm talking about the staleness of most items, here. The bow, particularly, was a huge downgrade from TLoZ, being both slower and "clunkier", if you can see what I mean... Also, the butterfly net, bombs, and hammer were, while not difficult to use, but just lacked teh smooth flow that is evident in the other games...again, it gives it that prototype-feel.

What, like enemies, as opposed to OoT which had bushes. I'm sorry, but you're talking poo.

Here's a typical screenshot:
http://nindb.classic...ges/ss/zl_1.jpg
and another:
http://www.gameranki...s5/588436/1.jpg
This is what I'm talking about. All over the field was pointless ledges, hedges, and soldiers that, when combined with my inability to defeat them, caused for a difficulty to traverse said field. OoT had a fun, WIDE OPEN field that was fun to explore the nooks and crannies of. Same with TWW and TP.

But... They weren't. Don't you morons who keep saying that get it? So what if the method involves pushing a block? It's how the puzzle actually works that's the important thing. I will say this very clearly. THE BLOCK IS JUST AN INPUT MECHANISM. Take the major puzzle in the Ice Palace. You have to push a block in a way that makes you think which block you need to push, which way you need to push it and most importantly, how to reach it.

Of course, for the sake of proving a point, I oversimplified things. Obviously no sensible game would have only block puzzles (talking as if the game desides what its content is...the pronouns here are difficult). In this case, you are correct, Fyxe-the blocks are only an imput mechanism, and should not be ridiculed where the layout of the puzzle is still to be considered. While that is correct, my main point is not that block puzzles are boring, but rather, that the game feels like a protoype. It is these block puzzles WITHIN the layout of the dungeons that still feels incomplete. I know, I know, you'll swear by this game, and it's genius, etc. But even though this is just an imput design, when an entire temple is the same thing but on a larger scale, it doesn't seem as impressive. Let me put it this way: pulling the switch and getting the key is fine. But when you're pulling the switch to get the key to unlock the door to move the block to the level below to press down the weight to open the door to get the key...you see? Yes, it's a great idea-"it's one great big dungeon layout! How cool!" But when you break it up, it's still the fundamentals, and those don't cut it.

You may think I am being some sort of liar, for saying that TLoZ is great (which features block puzzles) and ALttP is not. But, let me remind you before you pounce, that LoZ didn't try to be anything more than an adventure game. Once ALttP puts on that grandeur suit, and goes for the "complex dungeon layout" and "sophistacated puzzle design", it strives for too much, and falls short. Like I said, it feels like an incomplete game. Did I make my point? It was kind of a difficult point to explain, expecially without specific examples to bacm up my claim, so don't hesitate to ask further.

What makes the dungeons in ALttP good is the layout. Unlike OoT, the dungeons are not linear. They involve going back on yourself and discovering new routes, and even new ways to enter the dungeon.

That one dungeon in the woods, that required re-entering the dungeon, was aggravating. Also, since when is linear bad? I play Metroid to backtrack, not Zelda.

Oh, and aside from that, there are plenty of puzzles in ALttP that don't require merely pushing a block or killing enemies, so the next person who says that can go shove their head up the backside of a camel for just being plain wrong.

XD Lol. I know, but the crux of them, are. Still, I'll be sure not to undermine or disparage the game's other accomplishments.

You clearly have absolutely no idea of the jump between the NES games and ALttP. No idea whatsoever, despite claiming TLoZ as your favourite.

I've covered this above, but I'll say it again, to be clear: LoZ doesn't try to be anything more than what it is. It is a simple "stab the enemies and move on" game. Occasionally there is a puzzle, and that's almost like a bonus. ALttP is littered with these same types of puzzles-bomb a wall, press a switch, move a jar, or otehrwise. Like you said, they're on a larger scale, to make it seem fancy. But, the center of the puzzles in this game is still the simple things that I've mentioned. And even though it's a big leap, it's still the same at the core. And, I guess what I'm trying to say without saying it outright is, these simple-yet-large puzzles get annoying.

Remember, just because it's a big leap doesn't mean it's a good thing. Remember what I said, TLoZ is (one of) my favoites. Now recall what you said: the jump between the NES games and ALttP is big. But, LoZ is my favorite...so why would I enjoy a "big jump in gameplay" from a game that I already enjoy! THAT is perhaps what I am trying to convey, here....but my laughable usage of the English language isn't helping, so I'm gunna rap this (longish) post up.

[Masamune]

The only Malon should be in OoT, and any games featuring that Link. Romani makes sense, as Termina is an alternate world of Hyrule.

Agreed. Only Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, and Tingle should be recurring characters. Oh, and Vaati I guess. And... Epona. And... I guess the Postman too?

[LionHarted]

If Malon is in FSA, and they claim TMC is long, long, long before.

Capcom didn't make FSA.

[CID Farwin]

Overall annoyances: Ganon/Triforce/Hyrule is getting pretty stale. I could understand a few more before it just gets riddiculous. The whole series needs a revamp, like what's happening with Mario.

LoZ: my only problem is that it's old, and there's stuff that goes along with that, but that's extremely minor. My main thing is not having any idea where to go, which is probably also due to it being old.

AoL:It's VERY MUCH DIFFICULT, and until you get the hammer, just gets annoying.

ALttP:Being my first game, I can't think of anything wrong with it, especially since anything that gets annoying is present in later games. The hand in the dark forest temple used to freak me out as a kid, but that's about it.

LA:I've got nothing. The game was great. Can't think of anything right now.

OoT:While I'll defend this game as my absolute favorite, I'll admit it's full of flaws. Firstly, for some reason right after I talk to Zelda, I usually stop playing for a bit; I just don't have any motivation at that point. The whole plot stagnating so you can go dungeon-hopping I never really liked. Other than that there's more that should just be there. There should just be--more; it's an all-around problem. And then, of course, there's the Iron Boots...

MM:Off the top of my head I honestly can't think of anything wrong. Maybe there could be more dungeons, but that's been a problem since OoT.

Oracles:I thought they were great. There was one dungeon(I don't remember which one.. It was the one with the magnetic gloves) where I got hopelessly lost for a while, but that's about it.

TWW: If only this game hadn't been rushed. I actually liked the sailing, and the graphic style, which is what many people had a problem with. May I just say that the game was awesome up until the third pearl is just handed to you. The hunt for the Triforce was good, but it needed to be interspersed under a bigger plot, really. And I hated the whole Master Sword>Triforce thing.

FS:Don't have it, or a GBA; Don't know anyone who does, even if I did.

FSA:I quite enjoyed the game. Again, can't think of any flaws off the top of my head.

TMC:I've only played through the first dungeon, (it was my brother's copy, and he used to live in Colorado) but from what I've played, It's amazing.

TP:UGH! Don't get me started on this game. Aside from the Forced Emotions, constantly feeling like I'm playing an RPG and not Zelda, Occa, not enough Tingle, NO SIDE QUESTS, and many other things, there's not much left to like. That being said, I think that it was a great game. Spinner/Dominion rod/Clawshot are AWESOME. Oh, and to open the Door of time, you should have to play the Song of time, not Zelda's lullaby.

I think that's it.

At least for now.

[Fyxe]

I have too much time on my hands.

Gladly-while it's great for hitting those northeartern enemies, (assuming he is facing to the right of the screen) it is difficult to hit the eniemies directly in front of you,

Spuh? That makes no sense.

or slightly south-east.

But you can still *hit* them, as opposed to LA, where you can't.

Unless I'm getting my east and west mixed up. Look, essentially, in ALttP the sword swings in *almost* a complete arc. In LA, it swings half an arc, which, despite the fact that the sword is larger (almost stupidly so, really) means you can't hit enemies that are coming at you at certain angles. It's okay in TLoZ not being able to hit enemies at angles because that's kind of how the game works (although it makes Wizzrobes a thousand times more annoying than they should be), but in LA it's a bit of a lottery. ALttP is similar but to less of an extent due to the wider swing.

Most notable is the infamous hylian soldiers, who plagued the overworld. For some reason, I can't land a hit on those guys...maybe I just suck?

Yeeeeah... I think, um, you do. ^^

Or maybe I would have prefered the LoZ "stabbing" meathod of sword swining.

Hold the button down. Voila.

Seriously, sometimes I couldn't hit them for so long that I gave up and either ran away or resorted to spin-attacking. Not just the casual spin attack; no, like, an unnesesary amount of spinning. So perhaps the problem wasn't the attack method, but rather, the enemies themselves.

Or you being lame? Most people can handle the soldiers. Of course they give problems at first, but once you make it through the first dungeon, they become easy. Maybe you just rush. They have fairly predictable movement. There's virtually identical enemies in LA which I don't see you complaining about.

Firstly, I will often swap out the sword. Especially during boss battles.

It's only useful in certain moments, I find. Usually best to have both the shield and sword for 90% of fights.

The bow, particularly, was a huge downgrade from TLoZ, being both slower and "clunkier", if you can see what I mean...

What, because it took him barely a split second to fire it? Because it's a bit more realistic? It's more powerful to offset the timing. And who cares if it requires a bit more careful timing? It's still more useful than the bow in TLoZ, which I find generally only good for Pol's Voices. It's simply not powerful enough for most other enemies, or it simply does no damage at all to many of them.

Also, the butterfly net, bombs, and hammer were, while not difficult to use, but just lacked teh smooth flow that is evident in the other games...again, it gives it that prototype-feel.

How? Because it has realistic (well, as opposed to Link firing arrows out of his hands) animations where it actually takes a split second or two for Link to actually swing the hammer? Just like in OoT? Or... Most other games? o.o

And the Bombs are freakin' instant. You're just being horrendously nitpicky simply because you prefer simplistic timing.

Here's a typical screenshot:
http://nindb.classic...ges/ss/zl_1.jpg
and another:
http://www.gameranki...s5/588436/1.jpg
This is what I'm talking about.

Uh... I don't get it. You don't like... Bushes? Y'know, the bushes that you can simply cut down very very quickly?

All over the field was pointless ledges, hedges, and soldiers that, when combined with my inability to defeat them, caused for a difficulty to traverse said field.

Once again, I kind of suspect this is down to your inability to play. Which bemuses me because it's a lot easier in virtually every way to TLoZ.

OoT had a fun, WIDE OPEN field that was fun to explore the nooks and crannies of.

Nooks and crannies? What, all four of them? Hyrule Field had five or six easy to find holes. That's it. Nothing else of interest whatsoever, it's mainly just there to take up time between various areas, which can get very tedious.

Of course, for the sake of proving a point, I oversimplified things. Obviously no sensible game would have only block puzzles (talking as if the game desides what its content is...the pronouns here are difficult). In this case, you are correct, Fyxe-the blocks are only an imput mechanism, and should not be ridiculed where the layout of the puzzle is still to be considered. While that is correct, my main point is not that block puzzles are boring, but rather, that the game feels like a protoype. It is these block puzzles WITHIN the layout of the dungeons that still feels incomplete. I know, I know, you'll swear by this game, and it's genius, etc. But even though this is just an imput design, when an entire temple is the same thing but on a larger scale, it doesn't seem as impressive. Let me put it this way: pulling the switch and getting the key is fine. But when you're pulling the switch to get the key to unlock the door to move the block to the level below to press down the weight to open the door to get the key...you see? Yes, it's a great idea-"it's one great big dungeon layout! How cool!" But when you break it up, it's still the fundamentals, and those don't cut it.

I don't get it. Your problem is with every Zelda dungeon ever, then. They all involve variations on a standard puzzle set-up. What ALttP does that many other Zelda games don't is that it doesn't simply give you one puzzle per room. It gives you a serious of interconnected puzzles built around the dungeon layout. LA built on this, but it was still taking what ALttP already did and putting new twists on it.

You may think I am being some sort of liar, for saying that TLoZ is great (which features block puzzles) and ALttP is not. But, let me remind you before you pounce, that LoZ didn't try to be anything more than an adventure game. Once ALttP puts on that grandeur suit, and goes for the "complex dungeon layout" and "sophistacated puzzle design", it strives for too much, and falls short. Like I said, it feels like an incomplete game. Did I make my point? It was kind of a difficult point to explain, expecially without specific examples to bacm up my claim, so don't hesitate to ask further.

Frankly, the puzzles in Zelda games have NOT become more sophisticated since ALttP, at least not to any significant degree. If you can come up with a puzzle that is more sophisticated in a way that doesn't simply involve a new input method to learn, then go ahead. And look at the game in context; compare it to every other game of the time. It was a thousand miles ahead of them, and it still stands up to this day. You can call it a 'prototype' all you want, but it's OoT that was the incomplete game, not ALttP, and saying it's a prototype with no reasoning doesn't mean anything.

That one dungeon in the woods, that required re-entering the dungeon, was aggravating. Also, since when is linear bad? I play Metroid to backtrack, not Zelda.

What? Zelda games involve rampant backtracking. It's common ever since the first game. Metroid and Zelda share many similar elements, always have. And if you found Skull Woods 'aggravating', that's your problem. It's just clever dungeon design. At least ALttP has decent maps, as opposed to TLoZ.

I've covered this above, but I'll say it again, to be clear: LoZ doesn't try to be anything more than what it is. It is a simple "stab the enemies and move on" game. Occasionally there is a puzzle, and that's almost like a bonus.

Except it isn't like that. Once you get used to the enemies, it's at it's core an exploration game involving backtracking, memory and careful consideration of the dungeon layouts.

ALttP is littered with these same types of puzzles-bomb a wall, press a switch, move a jar, or otehrwise. Like you said, they're on a larger scale, to make it seem fancy. But, the center of the puzzles in this game is still the simple things that I've mentioned. And even though it's a big leap, it's still the same at the core. And, I guess what I'm trying to say without saying it outright is, these simple-yet-large puzzles get annoying.

WHY do they get annoying? Maybe you just don't like puzzles. o.o Which is unusual because ALttP is pretty balanced between slashing and stabbing and working out what to do next.

But, LoZ is my favorite...so why would I enjoy a "big jump in gameplay" from a game that I already enjoy! THAT is perhaps what I am trying to convey, here....but my laughable usage of the English language isn't helping, so I'm gunna rap this (longish) post up.

The irony is that ALttP is one great big worship of what TLoZ already did but with so much more flair. It's actually kind of depressing (and confusing) that you have such dislike of a game that is essentially the perfect sequel and the perfect evolution of the prototype (TLoZ is the prototype, ALttP is what you get when you improve the plot, gameplay, graphics and design).

They're so very similar in core that it makes me question the reasons behind your dislike of ALttP. It doesn't seem to be based on considered logic as opposed to snap judgements based on nitpicky things.

Edited by Fyxe, 10 October 2007 - 01:37 PM.

[Arturo]

Not liking ALttP is not a sin Fyxe. Don't act as if he was going to Hell.

Okay, I'll do my list

LoZ: Too non-linear. You don't know what to do. Way TOO difficult.
AoL: Difficulty again.
ALttP: An overall greta game. Having played it after such a long time, it doesn't seem as incredible as it seemed to em when I was 8, but I still see it as a good game. The puzzles might feel a little primitive at first, but taht's just teh first dungeons. The Ice Temple was difficult to me, for example. The difficulty level is perfect. Not impossible, not easy.
LA: I quite liked it when I played it. I didn't find it to be great, but pretty decent. Some puzzles were great, and Marin is the first unforgettable character the series has ^^.
OoT: Too much like ALttP. Which is good anyway. The problem is taht once you reach a point, you just find a lifeless world where there's very little to do. Dungeons were great, but the overworld was boring. And I hate fishing!!
MM: Too few dungeons. Most music was absolutely uninspired. Okay, just Ocarina tunes. But very atmospheric.
OoA: I really liked this one. I loved its difficult puzzles. But hated the whoel password-rings part.
OoS: Too linear. Too easy. Too primitive (much more than ALttP). Only something interesting: Onox.
FS: No idea
TWW: The first and only Zelda full of life and air. Some parts of it are too slow and taht, but it's genius overall. Love the style, love the story, love the controls.
FSA: A great game for playing with friends. It's kayish when alone. It has some of the most innovative puzzles of the series.
TMC: As with MM too short. But very enjoyable overall.
TP: A good game, but it lacks the charm of TWW. Too dead.Too much OoT-ish feeling. The second part of the game, as in TWW is kinda meh. Great controls for Wii.
FPTRR: A surprisngly good game. The Ruppe system might be too blind sometimes. Much more than you can expect at first.

Ok, my comments are dull and that, but.... meh.

Edited by Arturo, 10 October 2007 - 04:02 PM.

[Fyxe]

Not liking ALttP is not a sin Fyxe. Don't act as if he was going to Hell.

I am having a discussion, you're the one who's reading something fucking rediculous into my words.

Seriously, just because I'm not full of fluff and bubbles doesn't mean I think you all should die for disagreeing with me. Quit thinking I'm saying that. It's utterly annoying and I'm bloody tired of it. I don't feel like I need to explain myself like this everytime I argue a goddamn point.

...Alright, I'm going back to 'fluffy mode' just in case I upset someone with my nasty wordies. Although I notice that D~N, the one I'm talking to, doesn't seem to have any problem understanding my meaning. Bleh.

Ya bunch of... People.

...I'M IN TOO MUCH OF A GOOD MOOD. Dun poke me.

Edited by Fyxe, 10 October 2007 - 04:25 PM.

[Arturo]

I am not reading something fucking ridiculous in your posts. I am just saying you are being very far from nice. I agree perfectly with the content of your posts. I don't think that you think you are a God or something. I just know that, while you have not crossed any lines, you are too near to THE line. I just felt it was nice telling before you cross that line, if you cross it

Seriously, just because I tell you not to do something, it doesn't mean that I think you are pure arrogance and that the worst sense of dictatorship is inside of you. Quit thinking that. It's utterly annoying and I am bloody tired of it. I don't feel like I need to explain it everytime I tell someone off.

EDIT: And this was written before Fyxe editted hers ^^

Edited by Arturo, 10 October 2007 - 04:38 PM.

[Masamune]

It's encouraging to see I'm not the only one to have played Rupeeland. That brings it up to what... me, Arturo, and Showsni?

[CID Farwin]

It's on my list of DS games to get. Right after my DS and PH.

[Fyxe]

Seriously, just because I tell you not to do something, it doesn't mean that I think you are pure arrogance and that the worst sense of dictatorship is inside of you. Quit thinking that. It's utterly annoying and I am bloody tired of it. I don't feel like I need to explain it everytime I tell someone off.

...Have I accidentally gone back to primary school without realising it? o.o

Frankly, I don't see how I even got close to any 'line', because I was not being rude or insulting. I like D~N. I think he's smart. I have no reason to patronise or insult him.

The only reason you're poking me with the 'line' is because everyone thinks for some bizarre reason that I'm going to start flaming people. You don't have to be so dang patronising, I know the rules. -.- I don't aim insults at individuals anyway, rules or not.

Cha, leave me aloooone, I was having a good day. ;-;

Edited by Fyxe, 10 October 2007 - 05:24 PM.

[Alastair]

LoZ: Fine. The length of the game(both the size and the number of dungeons) is perfect for the complexity of the dungeons.

AoL: The game is inherently flawed in that during the early platform style sections Link is slow, unresponsive and lacks any variety in his method of attack. As the game progresses and more techniques (namely the upward and downward strikes) and spells are learnt, the game becomes far more enjoyable. This does not justify how frustrating the early dungeons are to complete.

aLttP: As with most Zelda games exploration is at first challenging as enemies are relatively more powerful in comparison to Link. Through acquiring more heart pieces and better equipment travel becomes less of a struggle as the player advances - that is up until the transition to the Dark World. Suddenly exploration is far more of a chore as the enemies are relatively stronger compared to Link. This takes a lot of enjoyment out o the game at a stage where the player is keen to discover the limits of the new location and how far the similarities with the Light World extend. There is also an issue with dying during a boss fight and having to navigate the entire dungeon again, paricularly annoying as in some dungeons this is time consuming and will inevitably result in the loss of some health. In future Zeldas a warp point is generally used to avoid this problem, possibly indicating that the designers also consider this to be a flaw.

LA: Showsni's right. Certainly my favourite 2D Zelda.

OoT: Navi is very irritating, but other than that it is hard to indentify any blatant flaws.

MM: The saving system is at first difficult to understand, but is also intrinsically linked to the most enjoyable aspects of the game. Still my favourite Zelda, but not the one that I would recommend to someone who had never previously played a Zelda game.

OoX: Both very good, and like the original LoZ the perfect length for the size and complexity of the dungeons.

tWW: The triforce hunt is infuriating as you have to do virtually the same quest twice, in between visiting Tingle and saving Rupees to pay his horrendous fees. In general very few imperfections.

FS: Never played, so a single player version would have been nice...though this was fixed in FSA.

tMC: Kinstones were irritating due to their randmness. Otherwise there is nothing obviously flawed.

FSA: Very fun. There was no particular learning curve, and no exploration due to the level completion format. I don't see how this could be changed without detracting from the games appeal.

TP: The twilight sections were bland map reading tests, and they robbed some of visual impact that areas would have had if you saw them first in daylight. There were very few side-quests, in the sense that things like the Yeti race were necessary to progress the main plotline. This cut down on a players freedom to ignore the main story for a time and interact with NPCs for the fun of doing so. Many of the NPCs made very dull statements that did not change at any point in the game, and in no way required Link to interact with them.

FPTRR: Great so far.... but then I've only had it for less than a week.

[D~N]

Not liking ALttP is not a sin Fyxe. Don't act as if he was going to Hell.

Didn't seem offensive to me, don't worry. I understand Fyxe's criticism and sarcasm (though there wasn't too much sarcasm in that post). Still, she wasn't yelling or anything...


------------

Spuh? That makes no sense.

http://www.zeldalege...a...659&pos=127
http://www.zeldalege...a...um=49&pos=9

1.Link is left:
............O
.........|`[]o
O __
[]`
A clockwise spin will hit the sword of the soldier above, sending link backward a few meters.

2.Link is left:
O __.........__O
[]`..............`[]
A clockwise spin is difficult to land, though possible.

3.
O __
[]`....__O
..........`[]
The swipe does not reach, stopping a little more than halfway through.

Hopefully visual examples helped my arguement, not hindered it. Perhaps my issue is not with the swinging, but with the soldiers supah-defensive skills. And they gang up on you, too...

-------------

Yeeeeah... I think, um, you do. ^^

You certainly don't expect me to enjoy a game that I suck at, do you? Because, and I will admit it, I did suck at that game. So all the more reason...

Hold the button down. Voila.

laaaaaaaaaame =P seriously, though, that's how I defeated them! You think that was enjoyable?

Or you being lame? Most people can handle the soldiers. Of course they give problems at first, but once you make it through the first dungeon, they become easy. Maybe you just rush. They have fairly predictable movement. There's virtually identical enemies in LA which I don't see you complaining about.

Hmm, curious...If they are the similar enemies, as you claim, then shouldn't I have problems? Oh, wait...I don't. So that must mean the swinging mechanis were fixed. Because I consider them broken.

It's only useful in certain moments, I find. Usually best to have both the shield and sword for 90% of fights.

Agreed. I won't ridicule this aspect too much because the multiple tem idea hadn't even been concieved yet. Still, with slower items I'd like faster item transition, which can be helped by having two out.

What, because it took him barely a split second to fire it? Because it's a bit more realistic? It's more powerful to offset the timing. And who cares if it requires a bit more careful timing? It's still more useful than the bow in TLoZ, which I find generally only good for Pol's Voices. It's simply not powerful enough for most other enemies, or it simply does no damage at all to many of them.

Yes, they are slower. I do not like it. Opinion, not fact, and I wont claim it to be anything more. Nevertheless, you can't slow down one aspect of the gme (arrows) and keep the rest the same (enemy speed). Then it is unbalenced, making certain items liek the bow useless. And, for the record, I used the bow on tektites, octorocks, and moblins, in addition to the pols voice you mentioned.

How? Because it has realistic (well, as opposed to Link firing arrows out of his hands) animations where it actually takes a split second or two for Link to actually swing the hammer? Just like in OoT? Or... Most other games? o.o

And the Bombs are freakin' instant. You're just being horrendously nitpicky simply because you prefer simplistic timing.

You win this round. I will stand by the butterfly net argument, though. It just takes too long, realistic or not.

Uh... I don't get it. You don't like... Bushes? Y'know, the bushes that you can simply cut down very very quickly?

I appologize for the poor examples, but it was better than no examples. What I don't like, in a nutshell, is all of the "useless things" that crowd the overworld. Elevated wall which I need to find the stairs to proceed, hudges that cannot be cut down, as shown in the first screenshot, and the other "objects" thrown into the overworld to make it seem more exciting, but really just clutters it with things I need to walk around... I know, I know, "get over it"...but my argument is actually a valid one-the overworld isn't FUN to traverse, unlike TLoZ's, which I loved to explore and look for hidden caves and old potion ladies. It was just fun! ALttP's is just...not. But that's a matter of opinion.

Once again, I kind of suspect this is down to your inability to play. Which bemuses me because it's a lot easier in virtually every way to TLoZ.

How would you say it is easier?

Nooks and crannies? What, all four of them? Hyrule Field had five or six easy to find holes. That's it. Nothing else of interest whatsoever, it's mainly just there to take up time between various areas, which can get very tedious.

Well, I seem to remember rolling into the trees to find skultulas, blowing up gray rocks, smashing gold rocks, and tossing red rocks (Or however the colour sequence goes), finding the "5 or 6" hidden holes, locating the poes, and just the fun of the world's corners themselves. Doesn't sound tedious to me...

I don't get it. Your problem is with every Zelda dungeon ever, then. They all involve variations on a standard puzzle set-up. What ALttP does that many other Zelda games don't is that it doesn't simply give you one puzzle per room. It gives you a serious of interconnected puzzles built around the dungeon layout. LA built on this, but it was still taking what ALttP already did and putting new twists on it.

Hmm...I don't know how to exactly defend my position. Perhaps if the dungeons were memorable it'd be easier, but I think the general blandness of these larger-than-one-room puzzle didn't really attract me. The concept was new, and good! Puzzles that are bigger than one room! Great! But, they were just uninteresting, I guess...Complex, sure, which desrves credit, but not very interesting...I think that comes down to the limitations of the game itself. So perhaps that is why I say it is like a prototype-good concept, incomplete execution...If that explains anything at all.

Frankly, the puzzles in Zelda games have NOT become more sophisticated since ALttP, at least not to any significant degree. If you can come up with a puzzle that is more sophisticated in a way that doesn't simply involve a new input method to learn, then go ahead. And look at the game in context; compare it to every other game of the time. It was a thousand miles ahead of them, and it still stands up to this day. You can call it a 'prototype' all you want, but it's OoT that was the incomplete game, not ALttP, and saying it's a prototype with no reasoning doesn't mean anything.

OoT's forest temple is a decent example. You press a SWITCH that rotates an entire hallway. THAT is interesting! THAT is what I mean by taking the multiple-room-puzzles and making them truely as good as they should be. Finding a key in one room that opens a door aaaalllll the way on the other side of the temple is the right concept, but it's not as fun or as great as turning the entire level upside-down ala MM. Still confusing? I'm struggling, myself...

What? Zelda games involve rampant backtracking. It's common ever since the first game. Metroid and Zelda share many similar elements, always have. And if you found Skull Woods 'aggravating', that's your problem. It's just clever dungeon design. At least ALttP has decent maps, as opposed to TLoZ.

You got me with the Backtracking and the Metroid comparisons, true. But the rest is a matter of opinion and personal experience. Not everybody knew when, where, or how to enter the dungeon from the second entrance, which can get annoying for the player! It's a matter of personal experience. Maybe if I played it again it wouldn't be so bad.

However, my main point there was that "linear isn't a bad thing." I'd like to see how you respond to that, if you have any sort of opinion on that particular matter.

WHY do they get annoying? Maybe you just don't like puzzles. o.o Which is unusual because ALttP is pretty balanced between slashing and stabbing and working out what to do next.

Yes, I'd say it's pretty well balanced, too. But these puzzles get annoying because, well, I've kinda seen them all before, except better ;;; You know, as I've told you in the past, that I played ALttP only recently, after TWW in fact. Comparing the two, it's just boring. Again, that's presonal experience, and NOT game desing flaws, so we're kinda straying from the topic here, so I'll digress.

The irony is that ALttP is one great big worship of what TLoZ already did but with so much more flair. It's actually kind of depressing (and confusing) that you have such dislike of a game that is essentially the perfect sequel and the perfect evolution of the prototype (TLoZ is the prototype, ALttP is what you get when you improve the plot, gameplay, graphics and design).

They're so very similar in core that it makes me question the reasons behind your dislike of ALttP. It doesn't seem to be based on considered logic as opposed to snap judgements based on nitpicky things.

I can see why you'd think that. I guess, in this case, it's just that I thought TLoZ was fine as it was...and ALttP just kinda screwed it up...remember, what some cosider "improvements", others consider "flaws". I guess, when it comes down to it, I see the added things, that are supposed to make the game more fun, as annoying. "Weird" swod swing (as opposed to "larger-reach"), "annoying" enemies (instead of "improved AI"), and "frustratingly long" puzzles (rather than "new, inovative, multi-room chalenges!")

Lastly, yes, I am very nitpicky about this game. Why? Because even though this is a GREAT game from far away, it really was all of the little things that bothered me so much. Well, little to you, at least.

POST IS SO LONG *eyes bleed*

EDIT: Stopping for dinner, I began this two hours ago. So nothing past Post #40 was read by the time I wrote this. (On the subject of Fyxe's "rudeness" or what have you.

Edited by D~N, 10 October 2007 - 06:44 PM.

[ShadyUltima]

Gah, I can't believe that people actually like Tingle. I guess everyone has their opinions, but he just always has bothered me. In Majora's mask he'd never shut up, his voice 'acting' was so annoying, and then he'd do that retarded little dance. *shivers* sooo annoying.

[CID Farwin]

The humor is just lost on some people...

D~N: it seems like your expectations were just off with ALttP. Try playing it right after LoZ, not TWW.

[Fyxe]

I can see why you'd think that. I guess, in this case, it's just that I thought TLoZ was fine as it was...and ALttP just kinda screwed it up...remember, what some cosider "improvements", others consider "flaws". I guess, when it comes down to it, I see the added things, that are supposed to make the game more fun, as annoying. "Weird" swod swing (as opposed to "larger-reach"), "annoying" enemies (instead of "improved AI"), and "frustratingly long" puzzles (rather than "new, inovative, multi-room chalenges!")

Lastly, yes, I am very nitpicky about this game. Why? Because even though this is a GREAT game from far away, it really was all of the little things that bothered me so much. Well, little to you, at least.

Your concept of flaw bothers me, that's all. I could consider the simplistic stabbing method of fighting in TLoZ to be a flaw. But that would be nitpicking. It's a gameplay element. I am not used to it but I ignore it because it works within the game it's in.

I seriously think complaining about the sword swinging in ALttP is rediculous, quite frankly. It's 99% the same as every 2D Zelda since, and I don't see you complaining about them, so I don't understand. I don't see why it's 'weird' at all. It's just not. To say it is, it's making a flaw out of nothing.

Also, the AI for the soldiers is 99% identical to the soldiers in LA and other 2D games, so once again. Trust me. I've played both ALttP and LA to death and the gameplay is so so so similar that making out that there are enough differences to count as real flaws is just... Plain madness.

And LA had longer and similar puzzles to ALttP, so again.

I don't think ALttP is perfect. I just don't understand why people are aiming so many pathetically nitpicking flaws at it while at the same time claiming that OoT is pitch perfect.

Finally, I just need to add that I think you need to check Hyrule Field in OoT and count precisely how many interesting things there actually are. ¬.¬ TP certainly improved on making Hyrule Field more interesting. Oh boy. It's just so EMPTY in OoT. Sure, that makes it 'easier to traverse', but it might as well not be there. Thank god for the warping songs.

Oh, and you pointed out the Forest Temple... Yes, that's great, it's the best dungeon in the game. But that's kind of it. The rest of the dungeons don't come close, unfortunately.

Edited by Fyxe, 10 October 2007 - 07:00 PM.

[Masamune]

Fyxe.

Maybe the reason people are nitpicking on ALttP is cuz, I dunno, the topic is "Game Design Annoyances"?

For the record - OoT had an imperfect camera system, switching Z Targets was a pain, and Navi was a complete pain. And like has been iterated, the Adult part of OoT is kind of drab and suffers from the "World of Ruin" atmosphere that makes the second half of FF6 horrendous.

[Selena]

Nobody likes these post-apocalyptic worlds in games?

That's it. The facts point to it. I'm actually the weird one, then. Aw. I think ruined world are fun.





(Also, people getting in trouble: Stop it or I'll bury you alive in a box.)

[D~N]

Oh, and you pointed out the Forest Temple... Yes, that's great, it's the best dungeon in the game. But that's kind of it. The rest of the dungeons don't come close, unfortunately.

I KNEW you'd say that! XD I thought the same thing, so, yeah, you're right. But you know what I mean, no? TP does a better job of this...

Finally, I just need to add that I think you need to check Hyrule Field in OoT and count precisely how many interesting things there actually are. ¬.¬ TP certainly improved on making Hyrule Field more interesting. Oh boy. It's just so EMPTY in OoT. Sure, that makes it 'easier to traverse', but it might as well not be there. Thank god for the warping songs.

Yeah, TP definately upped the overworld standard, that's for sure. Big, but interesting. Why I went with OoT as an example, I don't know...I probably shouldn't have.

As for the "flaws vs nitpicking" argument...I actually agree with you that I AM NITPICKING. I thought I'd point that out that, yes, I know I'm nitpicking. Remember, I think ALttP is a good game. Also remember that I think ALL Zelda games are great. ALttP, being a Zelda game, is great. The worst I can do to this game is nitpick about things that "bugged" me. In reality, that is considerably good! But when compared to the rest of the series, a series which I usally wont or can't point out the little flaws, it's gunna be ranked lower in my books. That's all. Besides, we're in a topic called "Game-design annoyances", what do you expect? XP

The sword just bothered me...always has, probably always will. You say it's similar, and it is...but they definately changed something in LA. Perhaps the recoil, I don't know, but whatever it is, it's a small thing anyway, and while it's not a huge deal, it's the only real justification for my "dislike" of ALttP. (My real dislike stems from something totally different, and I really don't remember exactly what. All I know is, I didn't want to pick up and play this game very much at all, and so that's why I find things to not like about it on purpose. But that's for another day)

...I really need to take a class on rhetoric or something, because I have absolutely zero ability to convey my ideas and opinions. Just forget I ever said anything.
-___-

Edited by D~N, 10 October 2007 - 07:36 PM.

[ShadyUltima]

Nobody likes these post-apocalyptic worlds in games?

That's it. The facts point to it. I'm actually the weird one, then. Aw. I think ruined world are fun.

Actually, my favourite part of OoT is going from the future to the past and seeing the differences. The only thing I wish was different with the Adult part, is that when you complete a dungeon or something, it effects the world more. Like, I beat the water temple and the ice cavern, but the Zoras are still gone, and the shortcut to Lake Hylia is still frozen. I hate that. I like when things you do in the game effect the world. Majora's Mask fixed that perfectly.

[thaneoffife]

I think that the reason that the sword-wielding foes are harder/more annoying in aLttP than in the other 2D games is not a matter of the sword's handling, but of the shield's. LttP is like LoZ, where the shield is only useful against ranged attacks, whereas LA, TMC, and Oracles allow you to deflect enemies with your shield. That makes it easier to recover when those foes get the jump on you, because you can use your shield to ward them off long enough to get the chance to maneuver, while in LttP they can often land several blows before you manage to get that one attack you need to fend them off.

[LionHarted]

The irony is that ALttP is one great big worship of what TLoZ already did but with so much more flair.

Which, if you think about it, is reason enough not to like ALttP as much.

'Cause that's why I'm none too fond of TP, frankly.

Frankly, the puzzles in Zelda games have NOT become more sophisticated since ALttP, at least not to any significant degree.

I dunno.

ALttP never had me walk on ceilings, manipulate my ability to float/sink in water, or FUCKING DANCE.

Edited by LionHarted, 10 October 2007 - 09:56 PM.

[spunky-monkey]

I don't think ALttP is perfect. I just don't understand why people are aiming so many pathetically nitpicking flaws at it while at the same time claiming that OoT is pitch perfect.

To be fair everyone's mentioned existing faults with both games, yes Ocarina of Time often gets stagnant due to the vast empty over-world and given how slowly Link transverses across it, a weakness that Twilight Princess also shares. Every Zelda game that follows needs a nifty "week-system" feature where different events happen on the field or in town (so for example on Tuesday traders setup shop, Friday a travelling caravan is seen on the plains and Sunday, the Ritos are flying across the world) this way at least something interesting is always happening somewhere.

However no one can dispute the single most annoying thing in ALttP and possibly the most frustrating boss in the series ever...

...Moldorm.
I hate hate HATE getting knocked off that damn platform onto the floor below and having to repeat this miserable fight all over again from the start; the guy who thought it'd be funny if Link's sword attacks upon the monster repels him across the floor and into the chasm below should be shot.

Edited by Ricky, 11 October 2007 - 04:11 AM.

[Fyxe]

The Moldorm is pure genius. Be thankful that there are tons of pots with Hearts in down below him! The one in LA doesn't have that, noooo, he just KILLS you in three hits. And he's faster. And the platform is smaller. Much worse.

Yes, the Moldorm is annoying, yes, it can take time to get used to him, but that's kind of the point. At least he's difficult, as opposed to the simplistic 'puzzle bosses' that newer games seem to like a lot. He certainly burns himself onto your memory, I know that much. The Helmasaur King is still more difficult though.

And yes, people, ALttP didn't make you walk on ceilings or anything quite like that, but those are just stylish (and a little advanced for the time ALttP was released, don't you think? Have some sense of context), rather than sophisticated. As much as I love Stone Tower Temple (and I do, I think it's ace), all it really is is two dungeons in one. Clever, but nothing overly complex. You only have to flick between the two once to get to the end.

In my opinion, Eagle's Tower still has the best dungeon puzzle in the series.

What ALttP does allow you to do is flip between two different dimensions on a whim. No stupid temple for ALttP's 'world of ruin' (and incidentally, I love dark worlds in games, and I think the Dark World is probably better than any other... The future of OoT isn't particularly different enough from the past, in my opinion. In fact it's largely identical, but with less to do). Only the Oracle games have used this gameplay mechanic since, which makes it extra disappointing that they're so overlooked.

Edited by Fyxe, 11 October 2007 - 04:25 AM.

[spunky-monkey]

The Moldorm is pure genius. Be thankful that there are tons of pots with Hearts in down below him! The one in LA doesn't have that, noooo, he just KILLS you in three hits. And he's faster. And the platform is smaller. Much worse.

Yes, the Moldorm is annoying, yes, it can take time to get used to him, but that's kind of the point. At least he's difficult, as opposed to the simplistic 'puzzle bosses' that newer games seem to like a lot. He certainly burns himself onto your memory, I know that much. The Helmasaur King is still more difficult though.

Difficulty I don't mind since I enjoy a decent challenge but when the game requires you to depend on luck of the outcome and not skill then I get pretty miffed. Personally I found every other aLttP boss fight easier than most because I stocked up on fairies, then its simply a process of wearing them down through the item(s) you acquired before they kill you; although I've never fought Dark Link on the GBA remake so technically I haven't defeated every boss...

In my opinion, Eagle's Tower still has the best dungeon puzzle in the series.

Agreed. The old 8-bit music rocks too.

[Fyxe]

I can beat Moldorm without falling off once, so, skill is definitely involved. XP

And every boss in Zelda easy if you just have Bottles full of Fairies, that's just freakin' cheap. Ya wuss. ¬.¬

And yes, Eagle's Tower has some excellent music. I do love some Game Boy music.