121 replies to this topic

[Fyxe]

...It's a theory.

It doesn't make it true.

That's the difference. I never claim assumptions as fact. Make sure you know what I'm arguing before you throw your cheap snide remarks at me.

Ugh, I can't be dealing with this nonsensical selective fanficcery.

Edited by Fyxe, 10 July 2007 - 07:46 PM.

[LionHarted]

...It's a theory.

It doesn't make it true.

It's an interpretation.
It may or may not be true. I don't know.

I do know that saying "the goddess of time is/is not a different goddess" is also an interpretation, and is equally not-true.

nonsensical selective fanficcery

Comparing one goddess to another, suggesting their titles refer to the same person
is another matter entirely from comparing two tribes that,
aside from being tribes and dwelling in a certain time period,
have nothing in common.

Edited by LionHarted, 10 July 2007 - 08:49 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

...It's a theory.

It doesn't make it true.

That's the difference. I never claim assumptions as fact. Make sure you know what I'm arguing before you throw your cheap snide remarks at me.

Ugh, I can't be dealing with this nonsensical selective fanficcery.

And who the hell is saying their assumptions are true?

[Fyxe]

Comparing one goddess to another, suggesting their titles refer to the same person
is another matter entirely from comparing two tribes that,
aside from being tribes and dwelling in a certain time period,
have nothing in common.

This just sums up my feelings of what this stupid 'discussion' has become. LionHarted, that is the most hypocritical pile of BS I've ever seen. MPS, take his side if you want, but you're lowering your standards, you really are. o.o

Yea, I thought we agreed she was a pseudonym for Nayru.

This is the whole 'assumption is true' thing.

It's like saying 'I thought we all agreed that the Twilight Mirror is the Dark Mirror' or 'I thought we all agreed that Majora's Mask is connected to the Fused Shadows' and so on.

Just because there are clear similarities between two things in the series doesn't mean they're the same unless they're specifically noted to be the same, or if there's really no doubt. In this case, there's plenty of doubt, since the Zelda series is full of various deities, and Nayru was never specifically connected to time (not until OoA anyway, and that's highly questionable as an intentional connection).

They COULD be the same. I never said otherwise. But it's hypocritical to say that this is so likely to be the case that it IS the case and then don't say the same thing about other similar concepts and items in the series.

Edit: I want to add something. The Goddess of Time and Nayru have significantly different properties. The goddesses have never, as far as I'm aware, acted alone to aid a specific individual. None of the time travel in OoT is due to Nayru's power, Link never calls upon Naryu to help, he merely uses the Master Sword and the Temple of Time.

However, in MM the Goddess of Time specifically aids Link whenever he plays the Song of Time. This is unprecedented for one of the goddesses. It could happen, but it seems out of place given the events of OoT (and other games).

Edited by Fyxe, 11 July 2007 - 06:09 AM.

[LionHarted]

But it's hypocritical to say that this is so likely to be the case that it IS the case and then don't say the same thing about other similar concepts and items in the series.

It's not hypocritical to say that the theory that Nayru is the Goddess of Wisdom and Time is more founded than the theory that the Twili were the tribe who made Majora's Mask.

Nayru created the law and order of the world. Naturally time would be expected to fall into this category, since the creation is even said to be set "before time began". This is enough to found the notion that she might be called Goddess of Time, just as she might also be called Goddess of the Law (the sages of wisdom are arbiters of the law in Hyrule, seemingly derived from her role as law-maker goddess).

The Twili have nothing in common with the Majora tribe aside from being a tribe that has vanished. They did not participate in hexing rituals. They do not wear masks. The Majora tribe was never said to have invaded Hyrule or the Sacred Realm, nor were they banished to another world. They simply vanished. No one had seen them since.

The goddesses have never, as far as I'm aware, acted alone to aid a specific individual.

The goddesses have never, outside of MM, been specifically besought for such a purpose.

However, in MM the Goddess of Time specifically aids Link whenever he plays the Song of Time.

Notably at the behest of the traditional bearer of the Triforce of Wisdom, which is Nayru's Triforce.

[Hero of Legend]

This is the whole 'assumption is true' thing.

Just because there are clear similarities between two things in the series doesn't mean they're the same unless they're specifically noted to be the same, or if there's really no doubt.

Yeah, like how Ganondorf obviously got pointy ears because he was chosen by the gods. Obviously. No doubt whatsoever, no sir! No evidence either, but what the heck, that's different! Yeah!

[Fyxe]

Fuck off HoL, you know I said it's a likely outcome, I never said it was fact.

Ugh. I'm leaving this one to you guys to fellate yourselves over. Can't be bothered with this circular nonsense when you guys won't actually listen to what I'm actually saying. Well done LH, HoL, you win, in the most hypocritical way imaginable. Have a cookie.

[Hero of Legend]

It is typical that one argues in favor of a theory because one believes that theory to be true, especially when it is "obvious" that it is so. As for me, I never said anything except there was no real evidence for your theory, certainly nothing 'specifically noted', and you couldn't accept that. Then you scorn at other people for doing the same? Excuse me for pointing out your blatant hypocrisy.

Lion Harted never claimed his theory to be fact, BTW. He said we were to assume Nayru did control the laws of the universe, as we are told she does. Going with that, she would also control time. This doesn't prove there is no other Goddess of Time, but it is an assumption to say there is.

Also, I never said I agreed with him, so that last part's kinda misdirected.

[Fyxe]

It is typical that one argues in favor of a theory because one believes that theory to be true, especially when it is "obvious" that it is so.

I don't make the assumption that any 'theory' I put forward is necessarily true. That's why they're theories. Facts, on the other hand, are different.

As for me, I never said anything except there was no real evidence for your theory, certainly nothing 'specifically noted', and you couldn't accept that.

Have you no memory whatsoever, or do you just adore being selective in your criticism? I never said there was 'specific' evidence, in fact, this is what I said...

All it simply means is that yes, Ganondorf's ears MIGHT just be a bit of fancy character design going on, but when it comes to the storyline, it makes *perfect* sense that it has something to do with the ToP, and is likely a result of him being 'chosen'. It makes more sense than him giving himself an 'ear job' anyway.

I never claimed it as fact. I COULD accept that there was no specific mention of this within the dialogue. I never claimed otherwise. I just said it made sense as one possible storyline explaination, and my favoured one.

Then you scorn at other people for doing the same? Excuse me for pointing out your blatant hypocrisy.

I scorn people for not accepting their own hypocritical notions, thank you. Once again, read what I'm actually saying instead of leaping into the topic with your unconsidered snide comments without even realising what I'm arguing. My problem here is selective and biased assumptions, not theories, assumptions.

Edited by Fyxe, 11 July 2007 - 08:35 AM.

[Arturo]

People, stay calmed. Avoid vulgar expressions and all that jazz. And I don't want to see fellatio in the Zelda Storyline Forum, please.


And, apart from that, I think Fyxe is right here. Even though it is a logical assumption thinking Goddess of Time=Nayru, that doesn't make it absolute truth, for the reasons she pointed out.


And everybody, shut up or I'll begin editing comments.

[Hero of Legend]

I don't make the assumption that any 'theory' I put forward is necessarily true. That's why they're theories. Facts, on the other hand, are different.

Obviously. But if you thought there was no chance for your theory to be correct, you would not support it, yes?

Have you no memory whatsoever, or do you just adore being selective in your criticism? I never said there was 'specific' evidence, in fact, this is what I said...

That was from this topic. A few posts ago you said it was foolish to believe in a notion that wasn't specifically mentioned in a game. I only applied that to our previous debate.

I scorn people for not accepting their own hypocritical notions, thank you. Once again, read what I'm actually saying instead of leaping into the topic with your unconsidered snide comments without even realising what I'm arguing. My problem here is selective and biased assumptions, not theories, assumptions.

Well, that makes two of us. I posted here because, really, this is exactly the same as our previous debate. What makes the ?Goddess of Time = Nayru theory? different from yours? Nothing. It?s all a bunch of assumptions based on coincidences, and in this case yours are not better than anyone else's.

I agree with your sentiment, anyway. If it was Nayru it probably would have been said. It really is that simple.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 11 July 2007 - 09:45 AM.

[Person]

Is this really that big of a deal? It's not like the entire storyline depends on whether the Goddess of Time is Nayru or not.
I just think that her Oracle controlling time is a dead give-away, but I could be wrong.

Can't we all just get along?

[MikePetersSucks]

Fyxe, chill out ._.;; It's not worth blowing a fuse just because some people assume a couple titles belong to the same entity. You'd look foolish for blowing your top over, say, FS and FSA Link being stated to be the same.

[Fyxe]

I wouldn't, because that one's an actual fact.

I pick my battles, jeez.

HoL, what makes this discussion different is that I'm arguing something entirely different. In that topic, I was arguing for a possible explaination for why Ganondorf has pointed ears. I was speculating about a minor detail that the character designers may have considered. I never even claimed it as a fact. I said it was possible.
In this topic, I was arguing against the assumption that two deities are the same thing when the evidence is somewhat shaky. I was arguing that there's no clear evidence to suggest the designers thought this, so we should not necessarily assume it was so.

The main difference I see is that Ganondorf's thing is a minor character trait that bringing up in any detail within the game would be weird. 'Hey, Ganny, why yer ears go all pointy?' 'Oh, you noticed? I'm not sure, something about being chosen'.

However, Nayru is a major deity and you'd think that with multiple opportunities in MM's script, they might have mentioned that the Goddess of Time was called Nayru, considering that Nayru was mentioned multiple times in OoT. Why use a different title all of a sudden? It strikes as a little odd.

I personally believe that the reason for the ears being pointy might have some precedance. Similarly, I feel the assumption about Nayru being the Goddess of Time is a bad assumption that's taken too easily as truth. Am I not allowed to point out why I think this? Or is thinking two different things about two entirely different subjects too hypocritical for you?

MPS even suggests that thinking that Naryu is not the Goddess of Time is akin to thinking that the Links in FS and FSA are different. This sort of rediculous claim can't stand unchallenged.

Nayru is never called the Goddess of Time, and never referred to as having specific power over time, despite about a billion chances in OoT and MM to say so. Link is called Link and is even referred to directly as the same character. It's very different.

You can't throw around 'hypocrisy' without taking into account the context. I try to whenever I do claim to see hypocritical behavior.

[LionHarted]

There is more of a comparison between the concept of Nayru and the concept of a Goddess of Time than between the Majora tribe and the Twili tribe. That is all that I am saying.

However, Nayru is a major deity and you'd think that with multiple opportunities in MM's script, they might have mentioned that the Goddess of Time was called Nayru, considering that Nayru was mentioned multiple times in OoT.

Nayru was mentioned twice, both in the Great Deku Tree's story.
Nayru was also referenced in Nayru's Love.

And, comparatively, the Goddess of Time was mentioned only twice in required conversation, and the other three references appeared when the banker despairs over how many days are left before the moon is projected to fall.

Basically, Nayru is very insignificant to the immediate storyline of OoT (despite being a major deity) and the Goddess of Time is just as insignificant. It would be an even more insignificant tangent to decide to clarify the crossover, if it is one, especially given Ninty's tendency to ignore an overarching continuity within individual games.

Nayru is never called the Goddess of Time, and never referred to as having specific power over time, despite about a billion chances in OoT and MM to say so.

Again, OoT and MM hardly focused on the divinities at all, much less their abilities.
Nayru is most definitely the creator of time, however.

[MikePetersSucks]

I wouldn't, because that one's an actual fact.

No, it's not. It's highly, highly likely and favored by Occam's Razor, but it's no more a fact than Nayru being the Goddess of Time.

[Fyxe]

It is a fact though, unless you enjoy misreading by butchering grammatical logic. And all logic. Seriously, there's a line of text in the manual or the intro, I forget which, that frankly confirms it unless one happens to be an utter dribbling moron who can't read straight.

This is not the same in the case of OoT and MM. MM fits in pretty much perfectly with the internal logic of OoT. And reused locations, names and items are all referenced with pretty much identical terminology in all cases. It's more than slightly odd that one specific deity would not be, just for the hell of it. Even Zelda, who's one of those who knows the creation stories in detail (isn't she the one who recounts some of it to Link in OoT?) refers to the character as the Goddess of Time, no mention of the name Nayru. Why? Just to make things more confusing?

Or maybe it's simply because Nayru was not the Goddess of Time. She's the Goddess of Wisdom. She may have created time among the myriad of things that 'laws' cover, but that doesn't make her the specific Goddess of Time.

She COULD be. I'm not claiming she can't be. But it's just very unusual to have such a drastic change in terminology. And, as already noted, the series is not without various sub-deities, heck, MM introduces at least five others.

Edited by Fyxe, 11 July 2007 - 07:24 PM.

[LionHarted]

It is a fact though, unless you enjoy misreading by butchering grammatical logic.

What specifically confirms it, though?
I've seen a lot of things that suggest you used the Four Sword before, and a lot of things that suggest that the game takes place immediately after FS, but nothing that CONFIRMS it.

And reused locations, names and items are all referenced with pretty much identical terminology in all cases.

And titles tend to change as roles change.

Hero of Time -- The Hero, when using the Master Sword to travel through time.
Hero of Winds -- The Hero, when using the Wind Waker to control the winds.
Legendary Hero -- The Hero.
Chosen Hero -- The Hero.
etc. etc.

Princess of Destiny -- Zelda, who can foretell the future.
Princess of Hyrule -- Zelda, princess of the kingdom.
etc. etc.

Goddess of Power -- Din
Goddess of Wisdom -- Nayru
Goddess of Courage -- Farore
Gods of the Triforce -- Din, Nayru, Farore, others?

Even Zelda, who's one of those who knows the creation stories in detail (isn't she the one who recounts some of it to Link in OoT?) refers to the character as the Goddess of Time, no mention of the name Nayru. Why? Just to make things more confusing?

Apollo is one of the gods of the sun and the god of music.
He does not cease to be either when he is called one and not the other.

OoT dealt with the Triforce of Wisdom; Nayru was referred to as the Goddess of Wisdom. The time travel was never attributed to the gods, simply to the power of the sword to seal you away for X years.
MM dealt mostly with time with respect to divine powers; thus, we hear of the title of Goddess of Time.

Edited by LionHarted, 11 July 2007 - 07:47 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

It is a fact though, unless you enjoy misreading by butchering grammatical logic. And all logic. Seriously, there's a line of text in the manual or the intro, I forget which, that frankly confirms it unless one happens to be an utter dribbling moron who can't read straight.

Yea, in the ENGLISH version. Those intros never name Link by name in the Japanese version. I'm playing it right now.

[LionHarted]

Those intros never name Link by name in the Japanese version. I'm playing it right now.

mmm, for me, it was less that than the fact that it says (paraphrased): "Vaati was sealed, but then..." (lead-in to the FSA story)

[Hero of Legend]

Yea, in the ENGLISH version. Those intros never name Link by name in the Japanese version. I'm playing it right now.

Is Link still named "Link"? If so, I say the implication is still obvious.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 12 July 2007 - 09:18 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

He's still named Link, but if he's never mentioned by name, it doesn't really matter. It just says "And a hero sealed Vaati once again", which opens the door for FS Link and FSA Link to be two different people, if you want to argue it.

[Person]

Link is never named in the MM prologue, so I suppose MM Link and OoT Link are two entirely separate people. Right.

[LionHarted]

"And a hero sealed Vaati again, but then..." leaves the door very narrowly open.

"But then..." tends to be misleading when it does not suggest direct sequence.

[MikePetersSucks]

Link is never named in the MM prologue, so I suppose MM Link and OoT Link are two entirely separate people. Right.

Not quite the same, since we SEE him, and are directly connected by other context clues.

[Person]

FSA Link already knows what the Four Sword does, and it's implied that he met Vaati before.

[MikePetersSucks]

Just because he knows what the Four Sword does doesn't mean anything. He knows it's keepers personally.

[Person]

It could go either way, because the Japanese manual leaves it open. Link is named specifically in the English manual. Since this doesn't contradict Japanese canon, it can be true.

[MikePetersSucks]

I know it could go either way. I personally believe both Links are the same. My POINT was, however, that there was as much proof for it as there was for many common assumptions, such as the Goddess of Time being Nayru.

[Fyxe]

The issue is you can't argue creator intention when it comes to Naryu and the Goddess of Time being the same. There's little to no indication that they intended them to be the same, in fact it seems unusual that they would choose to confuse the definitions.

However, there's clear indications that certain Links are intended to be the same, and arguing against it is akin to arguing that Metroid Zero Mission is actually a prequel to the original Metroid or something.