121 replies to this topic

[MikePetersSucks]

When has Hyrule ever been referred to as the entire world? I call bull.

[Person]

The Goddesses created Hyrule. Do you think that they just created the kingdom of Hyrule, or the whole world?

[MikePetersSucks]

They clearly created the world, but it's probably like in really old creation myths where the country serves as a basis for the rest of the world, such as in Shinto creationism where it describes the creators making Japan, but you're supposed to assume they made everything else, too.

Heck, the Gods created OTHER worlds, too. Why would they just make one country?

[Person]

I always considered the "Light World" to be a generic term for the dimension that the kingdom of Hyrule inhabits, but other people like to be generic and redundant and just call it Hyrule.

And I thought that the Four Giants were the primary gods of Termina, or are they merely secondary deities that were created by the goddesses? Termina is so different from Hyrule in mythology we don't know who made it.

[MikePetersSucks]

The Goddesses canonically created all worlds in the Zelda Multiverse, and created several guardian deities for them all.

I think I remember a quote describing how by creating the world of Hyrule and it's neighbors, the Goddesses accidentally created all universes and just took advantage of it or something. I have no idea how canon it is, but the Goddesses are the only deities who are shown to have true creative power.

[Person]

That quote was from the zelda.com timeline. It's plausible, but not true canon. We still don't know who made Termina, even though it's implied that the Giants are its guardians, but not its creators.

[Fyxe]

The Goddess of Time was mentioned by Tatl. It's possible that they have the same three goddesses and a fourth, lesser diety called the Goddess of Time. Or it's possible that she created the whole of Termina herself, and the people of Termina know nothing of the Goddesses of Hyrule and the Light World.

Either that, or it's possible that Majora and the Fierce Deity are related to Termina's creation.

Edited by Fyxe, 09 July 2007 - 01:22 PM.

[Raien]

They clearly created the world, but it's probably like in really old creation myths where the country serves as a basis for the rest of the world, such as in Shinto creationism where it describes the creators making Japan, but you're supposed to assume they made everything else, too.

Heck, the Gods created OTHER worlds, too. Why would they just make one country?

MPS hits the nail on the head. All magical essences/embodiments of the world's elements are to be found in Hyrule.

Edited by jhurvid, 09 July 2007 - 01:52 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

The Goddess of Time was mentioned by Tatl.

And Zelda in Link's flashback. So it's not a Termina exclusive deity.

[LionHarted]

Who said the Goddess of Time was even a new goddess?

[MikePetersSucks]

Yea, I thought we agreed she was a pseudonym for Nayru.

[Duke Serkol]

I agree to that, but it seems lots of people don't.

[Fyxe]

...Since WHEN did anyone agree on that? You can't just decide things based on assumptions and conjecture.

Edited by Fyxe, 10 July 2007 - 05:53 AM.

[Duke Serkol]

I'll speak for myself and say I always thought that ever since playing MM because, already in OoT, Nayru was the one to have given law to the world (including, and especially I would presume, laws of physics, such as time. She did make it so that photons color the sky blue).
That blocks like the one in the door of time would vanish in blue light also helped that belief and even more when the Oracle of Ages happened to be associated with nayru.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 10 July 2007 - 08:01 AM.

[Fyxe]

But she's the Goddess of Wisdom. Farore is never called the 'Goddess of Life' and Din is never called the 'Goddess of Earth'. Why would Nayru all of a sudden be referred to with a special, specific title? Especially when they don't even mention the name Nayru.

As for the blue effect, it's also the effect that occurs when the Sacred Realm gate was first opened, so I don't think it's necessarily a time or Nayru related thing. Certainly there's no blue effect when Link travels in time in MM (save for the Song of Time itself, of course).

[Arturo]

But then, Nayru is the name of the Oracle of Ages in OoA, remember?

[Fyxe]

And Din is the name of the Oracle of Seasons, and what the heck has Din got to do with the seasons? One would assume that trait would go to Farore or Nayru again.

You can't pick and choose similarities and say 'thus it's true'. It's hypocritical.

[Duke Serkol]

Din could be somehow rationalized because the changes of seasons are material changes (changes in the land, specifically), the real problem is making sense of Farore=Secrets since that would be more appropriate for Wisdom than Courage. But then we all know the third Oracle got shafter over the games' development, so whatever the original intention was it's lost now.

[Person]

Farore as the Oracle of Secrets probably refers simply to her duty of keeping the secrets of Link's quest, and her close association with Link could link her with the Goddess of Courage.

[MikePetersSucks]

Sorry, Fyxe, I didn't mean to come off as assuming. I just remember this big debate where a few years ago where it was almost unanimous that Naryu = Goddess of Time, and I think you were one of them.

ANYWAY, even if we assume Naryu is also the Goddess of Time, so what? She probably has more titles. The other Goddesses probably do too.

"Quick, Goddesses! Save us from Ganon!" "We'd love to, but we're not the Goddesses of Floods. Tough Shit."

[LionHarted]

But she's the Goddess of Wisdom.

Who created and shaped the order of the world.
Time, I imagine, would fall into this category.

Why would Nayru all of a sudden be referred to with a special, specific title?

Because beseeching the Goddess of Wisdom to give you more time just doesn't have a good ring to it.

Edited by LionHarted, 10 July 2007 - 11:47 AM.

[Fyxe]

We just shouldn't make assumptions. The fact that they never mention 'Goddess of Wisdom' and 'Nayru' in Majora's Mask at all, coupled with the fact that Nayru is never referred to as a Goddess of Time or related to time in OoT (and despite all the mentioning of time, you woulda thought they'd point it out, don't you?), means that connecting the two is merely an assumption on the same level as connecting the tribe that made Majora to the Twili.

Basically, while there might be a connection, there equally likely might not.

Also, just to note, the Oracle games were released after MM, so the whole Oracle of Ages = Nayru thing is for the most part fairly irrelevant to anything that occurs in MM.

Edited by Fyxe, 10 July 2007 - 11:48 AM.

[LionHarted]

Also, just to note, the Oracle games were released after MM, so the whole Oracle of Ages = Nayru thing is for the most part fairly irrelevant to anything that occurs in MM.

Unless the connection was engineered in reverse, with Nayru adopting a connection to time after the fact.

[Fyxe]

If that were the case LH, the connection would have been pointed out in MM, but it wasn't.

But she's the Goddess of Wisdom.

Who created and shaped the order of the world.
Time, I imagine, would fall into this category.

And 'wind' would fall under a similar category, but that doesn't stop there from being seperate gods of the wind in TWW.

[Person]

Ah, the wonders of retroactive continuity!

[Fyxe]

Ah, the wonders of retroactive continuity!

Yep, anything can be a retcon if you believe in it enough.

Believe. Believe.

[LionHarted]

If that were the case LH, the connection would have been pointed out in MM, but it wasn't.

And, if it were the case that Ganondorf did invade Hyrule in the Child Timeline, resulting in a different conclusion than the Adult Timeline, it would have been pointed out in the games, but it wasn't. We needed a creator interview to tell us that there was a different invasion and a Child Timeline in which that different invasion took place.

Not everything in this series is self-evident, otherwise there would be an official timeline.

And 'wind' would fall under a similar category, but that doesn't stop there from being seperate gods of the wind in TWW.

Wind is subject to laws of physics, but does not constitute any such laws.

There are laws of time; there are objects and beings that operate under those laws.
There are laws of motion; air currents operate under those laws.

The deities of wind are separate because wind is an object, not an abstract. Nayru created abstracts: physical law and order.

Yep, anything can be a retcon if you believe in it enough.

Except it wouldn't be a retcon. It would be a clarification.

We know that there is a Goddess of Time; we do not know the identity of said goddess.
Unless it is an already-existing goddess.

Edited by LionHarted, 10 July 2007 - 11:58 AM.

[Fyxe]

*Bangs head on wall*

Yeah, real life science makes total sense when talking about gods.

Way to miss the freakin' point.

[LionHarted]

Yeah, real life science makes total sense when talking about gods.

When talking about a god who created and governs laws of nature, it makes to assume that that designation is, in fact, true.

Nayru would be the goddess of time, then, because time is a non-physical designation for laws related to continuity of events.

Edited by LionHarted, 10 July 2007 - 02:20 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

You know you're on a roll when I of all people agree with you, Lion.

As for the whole MM Tribe = Twili thing, didn't YOU start that theory, Fyxe? Or atleast started a thread on it or something. Pot = Kettle.